[From Psychology forum] General Religion Discussion

[rogjodoin]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Am I an effigy of Satan? lol. I was a devil for Halloween once... it was fun

May I ask, if Satan brings violence, greed, and hate into this world... what does God do? Because he's never done ANYTHING that even remotely compares to the opposites of violence, greed, and hate.

Does that make sense? Violence, greed, and hate are all quantifiable, tangible things that we know happen and we know are terrible. What does God do to oppose/correct/compensate?

Miracles? Show me.
Appearances? I have more of a chance of winning the lottery than seeing a Mother Mary in my **** grilled cheese or in the bark of a tree and thinking it's the lord speaking to me.

Whatever god does that is right is so minuscule compared to what is wrong about religion, that it offers no definitive proof of his existence. Not even a sane argument.

Well, first I have to say aperisions of Mary are not of God.
I see miracles quite often, My wife has been healed of crones disease!
How about all the good things in life? Love, friendship, people helping and caring for those in need, encouragement etc? these are all attributes of God. Certainly not of Satan! How about new life? Child birth, animals , plants, flowers? The perfect alignment of the planets, sun and moons where if they were of course just a little we wouldnt exsist? Even the chicken egg is so awesome in complexity! All this, a wonderful, beautiful creation by God for our enjoyment. Enjoyment, another attribute of God.
If we put on our blinders to Gods love and exsistance, of course we won't see Him. Plus the devils main goal is to conceal us of The goodness of God.
Yes, all the evil is everywhere and in large quantity, But there is a gleam of Hope, there is good, and righteousness for those who seek it. For those who turn their back on this world system of belief and the lies the adversary has wittingly caused them to believe.
Believe me, I hate the evil just as much as you, I wish goodness out powered the evil. But I dont question God on these matters, my feable little mind could never understand The vastness of God, nor His plan. He is Almighty, perfect and Holy, knows all things. Who am I in comparision? Good luck in your quest for truth!

[rootb33r]

Originally Posted by rogjodoin

Well, first I have to say aperisions of Mary are not of God.
I see miracles quite often, My wife has been healed of crones disease!
How about all the good things in life? Love, friendship, people helping and caring for those in need, encouragement etc? these are all attributes of God. Certainly not of Satan! How about new life? Child birth, animals , plants, flowers? The perfect alignment of the planets, sun and moons where if they were of course just a little we wouldnt exsist? Even the chicken egg is so awesome in complexity! All this, a wonderful, beautiful creation by God for our enjoyment. Enjoyment, another attribute of God.
If we put on our blinders to Gods love and exsistance, of course we won't see Him. Plus the devils main goal is to conceal us of The goodness of God.
Yes, all the evil is everywhere and in large quantity, But there is a gleam of Hope, there is good, and righteousness for those who seek it. For those who turn their back on this world system of belief and the lies the adversary has wittingly caused them to believe.
Believe me, I hate the evil just as much as you, I wish goodness out powered the evil. But I dont question God on these matters, my feable little mind could never understand The vastness of God, nor His plan. He is Almighty, perfect and Holy, knows all things. Who am I in comparision? Good luck in your quest for truth!

Satan:1, God:0
Sorry, brother, I've got to give this round to Satan. Violence, greed, hate, envy, and all other forms of the aforementioned FAR outweigh the "good things" in life. I say outweigh sensitively because it's all relative, for many people experience the good as it outweighs the bad on a personal level. On a global level, Satan wins.

Besides, mental responses are a result of our brain. Love and hate come from the same brain.

I believe the meaning of life is to love. Period. Many people say God is Love... and to them I say go find your true love in a physical being and offspring and stop supplementing your poor physical relationship with some non-existent transcendental power.

The survey finds a strong relationship between a country's religiosity and its economic status. In poorer nations, religion remains central to the lives of individuals, while secular perspectives are more common in richer nations.1 This relationship generally is consistent across regions and countries, although there are some exceptions, including most notably the United States, which is a much more religious country than its level of prosperity would indicate.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258

Religion is a facade behind which the impoverished, downtrodden, and abused find solace.

[rogjodoin]

Religion is mans way of reaching God. Gods way is relationship.

[GonnaGetBig]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Satan:1, God:0
Sorry, brother, I've got to give this round to Satan. Violence, greed, hate, envy, and all other forms of the aforementioned FAR outweigh the "good things" in life. I say outweigh sensitively because it's all relative, for many people experience the good as it outweighs the bad on a personal level. On a global level, Satan wins.

You're right.

1John 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Wish I had more time but I have tons to do around the house before my wife gets home.

[rootb33r]

Lol...

I think the Bible has said just about everything and described EVERY scenario possible... so that you guys could quote it for just about anything

[GonnaGetBig]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Lol...

I think the Bible has said just about everything and described EVERY scenario possible... so that you guys could quote it for just about anything

Or maybe it just answers the questions we have.

[rogjodoin]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Lol...

I think the Bible has said just about everything and described EVERY scenario possible... so that you guys could quote it for just about anything

Your right, The Bible does say something about every senario! I think thats amazing! No other book ever written has that!

[GonnaGetBig]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

...Holy brainwash, Batman.

It was EXTREMELY risky to be anything but Christian in the days of the constitution.

The founding fathers would surely be disappointed to see where we have come today, where churches battle for people, and, ultimately, the tithes that come with them.

I’m sorry but honestly you’re coming across a little brainwashed yourself. You say it was “risky to be anything but a Christian” but then you quote Thomas Jefferson openly speaking out against it. That’s a bit of a contradiction don’t you think?

Then you say “surely be disappointed to see where we have come today”…I think you’re speaking for yourself and putting your words in their mouths. You’re doing nothing but making assumptions and trying to pass it off as fact.

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Well, I'm not a God-hater, I just refuse to believe something that has never been proven. So in effect, all I'm doing is "not taking a giant leap of faith." Right? Hah.

No, I take that back, I do hate God. I hate him because of what this fictional being has turned our world into. Violence, greed, hate, and utter irrationality amongst billions.

It was Thomas Jefferson who said, "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

and...

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

I find it interesting that you blame God for things that the human race does even though the Bible clearly speaks out against all of them. Man is full of violence, greed, hate, and utter irrationality (among other things) regardless of if they believe in God or not. You really don’t think we would have the same issues if people didn’t believe in God? Not to be rude but the left wing God haters like yourself (you said it not me) like to accuse God of all things bad in the world but it’s ridiculous to believe that earth would be peaceful place regardless. The human race is, has always been (since the fall) and always will be flawed and full of sin (or whatever you might like to call it). The Bible makes this VERY clear.

As far as Thomas Jefferson goes, I personally don’t care what he said. He is only one of millions who have attacked Christ and he is only one of many founding fathers of the US….so quoting him isn’t selling your point on that topic either.

Originally Posted by rootb33r

That is an incredibly biased statement based upon a subjective interpretation of the state of the country relative to your personal belief system.

Right…because kids have always ran into schools and colleges shooting people. And people killing there children and families or running into public places blasting away at as many people as possible has always been a big issue as well.

Try talking to an older person and ask them about it…ask them what they have seen from this country over the last 40-50 years. This country has progressively gotten worse (not that it's ever been a perfect place) and as long as we keep heading down this road of the God haters it will only get worse.

Anyway, like I said I’m not arguing with you to try and change your mind but you honestly don’t know enough about the Christian faith to make some of the claims that you have. And I’m not attacking you, just trying to give an understanding on some of your misunderstandings.

[rootb33r]

Originally Posted by GonnaGetBig

I’m sorry but honestly you’re coming across a little brainwashed yourself. You say it was “risky to be anything but a Christian” but then you quote Thomas Jefferson openly speaking out against it. That’s a bit of a contradiction don’t you think?

Then you say “surely be disappointed to see where we have come today”…I think you’re speaking for yourself and putting your words in their mouths. You’re doing nothing but making assumptions and trying to pass it off as fact.

Thomas Jefferson did not openly make most of these quotes; it was long after he was dead that these statements of discontent were found in things such as letters to family, and other private media.

You cannot say that the founding fathers would approve of where we are as a Christian society, either, so I don't think that either of us has much ground to stand on. I am simply referring to the state of Christianity as more of a business than it has ever been with faux "miracle workers" and television evangelists soliciting money from their followers, specifically the sick and elderly.

Originally Posted by GonnaGetBig

I find it interesting that you blame God for things that the human race does even though the Bible clearly speaks out against all of them. Man is full of violence, greed, hate, and utter irrationality (among other things) regardless of if they believe in God or not. You really don’t think we would have the same issues if people didn’t believe in God? Not to be rude but the left wing God haters like yourself (you said it not me) like to accuse God of all things bad in the world but it’s ridiculous to believe that earth would be peaceful place regardless. The human race is, has always been (since the fall) and always will be flawed and full of sin (or whatever you might like to call it). The Bible makes this VERY clear.

Just because the bible speaks out against these things does not mean that they don't happen, and furthermore happen in the name of the religion. It is very widely known that much violence is propagated and much blood is shed due to religion-related violence. And I'm not talking about only extremists or nut-jobs, I'm talking about how The Crusades were a very major part of European history, causing countless conflicts and countless casualties. Other violence in the name of God was extremely commonplace in the medieval times as well. And even modern-day crusades, like the Israel-Palestine conflict which grows the death toll daily. All in the name of religion.

Now, don't be a hypocrite and put words in my mouth,
"Not to be rude but the left wing God haters like yourself (you said it not me) like to accuse God of all things bad in the world but it’s ridiculous to believe that earth would be peaceful place regardless.
...
First of all, yes, I hate religion. Secondly, I never said I was left-wing. In fact, I'm a registered conservative I am fiscally, morally, and socially conservative... I grew up with an excellent family and being instilled with tremendous morals and values, neither of which were the result of religion. These are the things that make me a moral and social conservative. My fiscal conservatism I picked up from college, and is a by-product of having a Bachelor's degree in Economics.
Thirdly, I never claim that the world would be all rainbows and butterflies without religion. People are inherently flawed and, yes, full of sinful feelings and emotions. I was strictly speaking of the violence that religion has propagated.

Serial killers will exist regardless; war will exist regardless; political extremists will exist regardless; and social indecency and inadequacy will exist, all regardless of religion.

Originally Posted by GonnaGetBig

Right…because kids have always ran into schools and colleges shooting people. And people killing there children and families or running into public places blasting away at as many people as possible has always been a big issue as well.

Try talking to an older person and ask them about it…ask them what they have seen from this country over the last 40-50 years. This country has progressively gotten worse (not that it's ever been a perfect place) and as long as we keep heading down this road of the God haters it will only get worse.

Why then have we progressively gotten worse when we are one of the largest Christian nations in the world? I don't see the causation; correlation perhaps, but there are far too many additional variables in play to point the finger at a falling-out of religious America, so to speak. The media is who I blame for the magnification of these random acts of violence, making it easier to "get your message out" by blowing up a school or going on a shooting spree. You're practically guaranteed a month of TV coverage if you do something stupid like that.

Another thing I blame is America's rising reliance on personal debt. We are all living above our means and it's creating depression, anxiety, stress, and overall bad situations throughout the country.

Originally Posted by GonnaGetBig

Anyway, like I said I’m not arguing with you to try and change your mind but you honestly don’t know enough about the Christian faith to make some of the claims that you have. And I’m not attacking you, just trying to give an understanding on some of your misunderstandings.

If I was at all interested in knowing about the faith, I would be a Christian. I grew up a Christian until I decided to become agnostic when I was 16. I sort of remained stagnant from a religious aspect until a few years ago when I started noticing things... specifically when my parents lived in Georgia for 3 years, I started noticing a difference in people down in the "Bible Belt," and a difference in the community. Since then I've dated a very Christian girl whose father was a pastor for decades; I've gone to Church numerous times with many friends (including the ex-gf); I've read scripture (not much I must admit); I've read books on atheism as well as on the Christian lifestyle.

I honestly enjoyed the days I went to church with my Mom (and later, when I could drive, I went by myself for a brief period of time). Sitting in those old wooden pews, singing old-fashioned hymns... Now-a-days, churches are riddled with stadium seating, cushy chairs, LCD TV's on the walls, and a live rock band on stage singing new-age songs about christ and how much they love him. There are people standing and holding their hands to the sky, as if god, if he existed, cared.

I enjoyed the days of the boring sermon from the pastor, telling a tale from the bible and connecting it to real life occasionally. Now-a-days, the pastor is young, hip, and tries to appeal to a new generation of church-goer. He emphatically cracks jokes and teaches life lessons with only a few references to the bible's stories... big difference.

I'm not claiming to be a totally-neutral source, I'm just trying to say that I'm not a completely biased ranter and raver coming from the "left-wing atheist" group. lol.

[GonnaGetBig]

Originally Posted by rootb33r

You cannot say that the founding fathers would approve of where we are as a Christian society, either, so I don't think that either of us has much ground to stand on. I am simply referring to the state of Christianity as more of a business than it has ever been with faux "miracle workers" and television evangelists soliciting money from their followers, specifically the sick and elderly.

I never said they would or would not though…you did. As far as the television evangelists go, most Christians don’t even care for those guys. The "miracle workers" are an embarrassment even to most Christians…believe me! But again this is human nature too…why are you so surprised?

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Just because the bible speaks out against these things does not mean that they don't happen, and furthermore happen in the name of the religion. It is very widely known that much violence is propagated and much blood is shed due to religion-related violence. And I'm not talking about only extremists or nut-jobs, I'm talking about how The Crusades were a very major part of European history, causing countless conflicts and countless casualties. Other violence in the name of God was extremely commonplace in the medieval times as well. And even modern-day crusades, like the Israel-Palestine conflict which grows the death toll daily. All in the name of religion.

From here on out I’m only speaking about the Christian faith because the Christian faith is different than religion. Religion is man trying to save himself through works….Christianity is God reaching out to man because we will never be good enough to save ourselves.

Anyway….

Again you’re blaming God for human sinful nature. I mean where is the logic here? The Bible demands that you don’t Kill, steal, etc. and people do it anyway and then you point the finger at God?

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Now, don't be a hypocrite and put words in my mouth,

"Not to be rude but the left wing God haters like yourself (you said it not me) like to accuse God of all things bad in the world but it’s ridiculous to believe that earth would be peaceful place regardless.
...
First of all, yes, I hate religion. Secondly, I never said I was left-wing. In fact, I'm a registered conservative I am fiscally, morally, and socially conservative Thirdly, I never claim that the world would be all rainbows and butterflies without religion. People are inherently flawed and, yes, full of sinful feelings and emotions. I was strictly speaking of the violence that religion has propagated.

My bad for assuming you were a left wing liberal but you guys use a lot of the same arguments. Only speaking of the Christian faith here ok… The crusades were a black eye for Christianity but again it was humans that did these things and once again you’re blaming God for something that “we” did. Keep in mind there is nothing we can’t screw up beyond belief.

Originally Posted by rootb33r

Why then have we progressively gotten worse when we are one of the largest Christian nations in the world? I don't see the causation; correlation perhaps, but there are far too many additional variables in play to point the finger at a falling-out of religious America, so to speak. The media is who I blame for the magnification of these random acts of violence, making it easier to "get your message out" by blowing up a school or going on a shooting spree. You're practically guaranteed a month of TV coverage if you do something stupid like that.

Another thing I blame is America's rising reliance on personal debt. We are all living above our means and it's creating depression, anxiety, stress, and overall bad situations throughout the country.

Ok first off people don’t kill themselves or others just to get on TV unless there is something severely missing in their lives (that would be Jesus) or they have some kind of mental issues. And yeah I blame the media as well…for bashing God every chance they get, pushing the gay marriage agenda 24/7 and giving people like Bill Maher air time.

I would also agree that debt doesn’t help…get ready, here it comes…

“Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.” Romans 13:8