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  #61  
Old 11-09-2008, 06:01 AM
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You haven't told me anything new.

Facts prove that when you outlaw abortion the number of abortions does not go down - more women just die as a result.

I'm completely anti abortion and I think it is morally disgusting. But I'm also against killing people for no reason or punishing people further when they make bad choices. Like I said in my other post - the war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs.


And you don't believe in progressive taxes or universal health care?

I really have to wonder about your "Christian values" in that case. Thats something that also bothers me - how Christians can claim the republican party as championing their cause when EVERYTHING the party stands for is a slap in the face to the teachings of Christ.
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  #62  
Old 11-09-2008, 06:04 AM
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And no - what I meant was that many many times the sperm will fertilize the egg but it will never implant. The body can also later abort it. Or there can even be a later miscarriage.

Personally I think that its a life when there's brain activity. When that is, I don't know. But it isn't at the moment of conception.
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  #63  
Old 11-09-2008, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Commander View Post
I don't believe you can separate that into an either/or situation. Fringe groups were more likely to join us if they believed we had a chance at success. The surge and talking with fringe groups both feed off of each other and benefit each other.
That sounds like back seat generaling to me. You just made that up. It has been stated repeatedly by military command that the only reason we're seeing a decrease in the violence is because we've coordinated with Iraqis and they have taken on a lot of the responsibility of curbing the infighting themselves. Attributing that to the surge is nonsense in my opinion. The surge was in place at the same time but like I said before, it wouldn't have mattered if we had carpet bombed the entire country and put 20 million troops on the ground. We are winning because we've re-evaluated how we fight wars and how we occupy countries. It took us decades to figure it out (definitely didn't figure it out in Vietnam) but we have finally done it (hopefully).
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  #64  
Old 11-09-2008, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
I was pretty undecided for a long time on this election but then I came across this site here:

http://obama-mccain.info/index-obama-mccain.php

I am always very hesitant to chose a side in politics since actions and words do not always line up. This site goes issue by issue and is independent and objective.

After reading through all the issues I had to side with Obama on this one and cannot understand why anybody would side with McCain aside from 3 issues: they are simply ignorant of the issues or how policy actually works, they think that being christian means you should vote republican (give me a break, like repubs give a **** about christ), or they are racist. Period.

Here's a breakdown on the issues how I see it:
1. Abortion - McCain says life begins at conception. Science proves otherwise since 30 some percent of conceptions won't even become a fetus. Furthermore, it has been PROVEN that the only thing banning abortion does is make more people die. People WILL abort regardless of legality. The war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs - aka, not successful at all.

I can not argue with abortion in certain cases such as rape, incest, or if it can save the mother's life.

2. Budget - neither party is interested in curbing government spending, removing the ability to add earmarks to bills, or hold anybody accountable. So this is really a toss up.

True

3. Deficit - Repubs have consistantly said they are for small government and low spending but all their actions speak much differently. We need a democrat to get us out of deficit.

Just like Clinton did

4. Education - Obama was an educator so he understands the problems with the systems. McCain is completely 100% oblivious. I'm a teacher so I know what is happening with the education system. NCLB is a disaster and vouchers/merit pay would drive 50% of teachers out of teaching.

Right on

5. Foreign Affairs - Obama wants to focus on Afghanistan and tribal regions in Pakistan. This is and has always been the true battle ground. Iraq has ***k all to do with Al Queda and 911. We need to leave Iraq as quickly as is possible (without letting it slide into chaos). McCain's ideas on foreign policy are the SAME as Bush's. Both don't have a clue how to "protect America."

Where is Bin Laden I got a hint not in Iraq and most likely in Pakistan

6. Taxes - Taxing the rich more makes sense. Period. I'm an econ major so I have some room to speak here. The Rich benefit more from the things the government provides. Infrastructure and education being two major examples. Furthermore, the rich won't care if you tax their capital gains 20% or 40% they WILL STILL INVEST because it is the best way to make money when you have capital to invest. They won't just let their money sit idle. The Repub stance on the economy makes no sense fundamentally. This recession is due to Greenspan's unregulated free market principals which is a Repub dream become nightmare.

You go to have money to make money. 36% to 39% of income tax for rich is not a big deal so those rich CEO's and athletes and celebrities can cry me a river. However, increasing taxes on the poor and middle class is a diaster waiting to happen. The middle class keep the economy alive they buy the majority of goods and services in this country. I could write a book on this but I have made my point.

7. Healthcare - The USA lacks universal healthcare. In my opinion this makes us a joke of a country. Its 2008. People should be able to take their kid in for some antibiotics. That's the bottom line. I don't care how much it costs. This should be a fundamental right according to the Bill of Rights.

Sorry, Sir we can not save your life today because you don't have insurance so we have to let you die. Being denyed necessary life saving services because you dont have healthcare or don't have good enough insurance is absolutely disgusting. People go broke everyday in this country because of medical costs. Not to mention by having so many uninsured people in this country when they do go to a hospital it causes taxpayers lots of money which could be saved by universal or affordable healthcare.

Everything else is irrelavent.

Absolutely an excellent post.

Gen. Petreaus had an excellent idea of how to UnF*** Iraq. The surge had much less to do with the recent success than the negotiating with groups that didnt need to be our enemies. Gen. Petreaus deserves credit however, Iraq is a war fought at the squad level which means the warriors on the ground deserve the real credit. The only way Iraq will succeed is if they can run their own country and protect their ppl not us.
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  #65  
Old 11-09-2008, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
You haven't told me anything new.

Facts prove that when you outlaw abortion the number of abortions does not go down - more women just die as a result.

I'm completely anti abortion and I think it is morally disgusting. But I'm also against killing people for no reason or punishing people further when they make bad choices. Like I said in my other post - the war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs.


And you don't believe in progressive taxes or universal health care?

I really have to wonder about your "Christian values" in that case. Thats something that also bothers me - how Christians can claim the republican party as championing their cause when EVERYTHING the party stands for is a slap in the face to the teachings of Christ.
You can go ahead and question them. My Heavenly Father knows where I stand.

My answer was already stated in another reply:

Giving to the needy, my Christian friends, is the Church's job. It is only charitable to give to the poor when it is a free choice. Now, I realize that we don't have a complete Christian society. Therefore, I acknowledge the need for some types of programs, but I feel they need extensive reform because the rampant abuse of welfare programs only promotes laziness which does not make our country a better place. People taking initiative makes our country better.

Giving to the needy in the private sector is done much more efficiently than by the government, because when it is YOUR dollars going to help the poor, you make sure that you are giving to a church or charity that is reputable!

And in regards to the war on drugs, I would agree that it has not been successful, but I don't think you really can compare it to abortion being illegal. If we legalize drugs, someone is choosing to harm their OWN body, but with abortion legal, we give someone the legal abilitity to murder a life. That is plain wrong.
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Last edited by Commander; 11-10-2008 at 08:14 PM.
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  #66  
Old 11-09-2008, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
And no - what I meant was that many many times the sperm will fertilize the egg but it will never implant. The body can also later abort it. Or there can even be a later miscarriage.

Personally I think that its a life when there's brain activity. When that is, I don't know. But it isn't at the moment of conception.
Brain activity is at about 40 days (see below, also taken from a previous post). But often it can be close to that long before a women knows she is pregnant.

At the average time when a woman is aware that she is pregnant (the fifth to sixth week after conception), the preborn human being living inside her is metabolizing nutrition, excreting waste, moving, sucking his or her thumb, growing, and doing many other things that non-living things just do not do. As early as 21 days after conception, the baby’s heart has begun to beat his or her own unique blood-type, often different than the mother’s. (Moore & Persaud, The Developing Human, p.310; Nilsson & Hamberger, A Child is Born, p.86; Rugh & Shettles, From Conception to Birth, p.217.) At 40 days after conception, brain waves can be read on an EEG, or an electroencephalogram. (Dr. H. Hamlin, Life or Death by EEG, JAMA, Oct.12, 1964, p.113.)

And another source (bold my own):

More traditionally, pregnant women will act on pregnancy symptoms that are produced by the body. These are the results of changes occurring inside of your body preparing itself for pregnancy, in these situations a subtle change in the size of your breasts, or the need to visit the bathroom more often than usual, will drive the women to take action. The action is of course a pregnancy test kit and subsequent test. Research suggests that this will happen five to six weeks after conception, although in some cases it will be nine to ten.

http://www.pregnancywizard.com/getti...tion-after.php

Since you feel life begins with brain waves, what is it before that? Keep in mind this….

The conceptus is a separate and distinct human being and contains its own 46 individualized chromosomes different from that of the mother throughout all stages of development. They each have a separate circulation, separate organs as brain, heart, kidneys, liver, the same or different blood types, and are of the same or different sex

The mother only provides shelter, nutrition and oxygen and does not direct the development of the conceptus
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  #67  
Old 11-10-2008, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
That sounds like back seat generaling to me. You just made that up. It has been stated repeatedly by military command that the only reason we're seeing a decrease in the violence is because we've coordinated with Iraqis and they have taken on a lot of the responsibility of curbing the infighting themselves. Attributing that to the surge is nonsense in my opinion. The surge was in place at the same time but like I said before, it wouldn't have mattered if we had carpet bombed the entire country and put 20 million troops on the ground. We are winning because we've re-evaluated how we fight wars and how we occupy countries. It took us decades to figure it out (definitely didn't figure it out in Vietnam) but we have finally done it (hopefully).
I didn't make it up. I stand by what I said, you are correct in saying that identifying new strategies with the Iraqis helped, but the surge did as well, which I hope the following links and quotes illustrate:


What did you tell the members of Congress?

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, says the "surge" in U.S. troops has achieved success, particularly against Al-Qaida-in-Iraq insurgents in Anbar province west of Baghdad.

Essentially that the surge of forces has now turned into a surge of offensive operations, and it began about a month ago, and that that has achieved tactical momentum, success in a number of areas against the Al-Qaida-in-Iraq elements

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=12099511

Saddam had always maintained a complex perimeter around Baghdad that on paper looked like a series of concentric circles.
If it had worked for Saddam, thought Petraeus and Odierno, it might work for them against the insurgents.
As the troops deployed, Petraeus and Odierno mounted a string of offensive operations against al-Qaeda and insurgent strongholds all over Iraq.
Even with the extra troops, Odierno and Petraeus didn't have the forces to do this everywhere, but they dispersed their forces so widely that it seemed that way for a while.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8843-1,00.html

Army Gen. David H. Petraeus told the Pentagon Channel the new strategy in Iraq -- with more coalition and Iraqi troops helping quell violence in and around Baghdad and operations that promote closer cooperation with the Iraqi population -- has helped stabilize once-violent areas.

“The security has been a result, certainly, of more coalition and Iraqi forces,” he said. “But it’s also the employment of those forces.”

Petraeus credited the U.S. troop surge, along with an additional 110,000 Iraqi soldiers and police, with providing critical manpower needed to rout insurgents. But another vital part of the formula was the new strategy in which the troops began living among the people they were securing.

http://ourvoice.legion.org/story/178...-petraeus-says

The U.S. commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, told the U.S. Congress in September that Sunni Islamist militants from Al-Qaeda in Iraq appear to have been squeezed out of Al-Anbar Governorate by the troop increase.Petraeus attributes that development not only to the efforts of U.S.-led coalition forces, but also to an increasing number of Sunni tribal leaders and militants in Al-Anbar who have turned against Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...14-rferl01.htm

In the aftermath of America's recent troop surge in Iraq, tribal leaders throughout this country are turning on Al Qaeda, and American military commanders are trying to exploit the new development by bringing tribe members into the Iraqi Security Forces.

While the military and CIA have tried to reach out to Iraq's tribes since before the war, those efforts yielded mixed results.

For Sheikh Hussein, however, the prospect of a speedy exit is also unacceptable. At a luncheon at a home of one of his cousins, he asked this reporter, "Please, tell the Democrats for now to stop pressuring Bush."

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/as-surg...rs-turn/54368/

So I asked Petraeus how he assessed the current situation and the post-surge future. We spoke in his Baghdad office, "I think it is going the way we wanted in Baghdad and the belts around Baghdad," he replied. "We have done considerable damage to al-Qaeda in Iraq. Anbar is transformed," he added, referring to the Sunni province once home to the toughest insurgents and a base for al-Qaeda in Iraq.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...round_ira.html

Petraeus, the new commander managing the "surge" of troops in Iraq, will be the first to caution realism. "Sure we see improvements - major improvements," he said in our interview, "but we still have a long way to go."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03202007...llu.htm?page=0
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  #68  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:23 PM
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How's everyone enjoying the Obama presidency?
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  #69  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:42 PM
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How's everyone enjoying the Obama presidency?

He inherited a bad situation, but never really improved it either. Sadly I don't think Mitt Romney is the answer either, and I'm predicting he loses the election to Obama. I wouldn't feel good voting for either candidate; Ron Paul was the man who had my vote.
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  #70  
Old 06-08-2012, 04:06 PM
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I think that Obama did the best that he could with the situation that he was given and the obstacles thrown in his path. He has my vote.
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