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  #51  
Old 11-08-2008, 09:02 PM
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you guys are, and don't get me wrong, being very silly...

You speak of peace as if it is even an option... Look at the history of the world. SHow me when there was peace? You show me peace, and i will show you a hundred reasons why THIS DAY IN AGE is 100 times less likely to have peace then in the past. The biggest reason is this: technology. If someone wants to pick a fight with someone half way around the world, they can. Unlike 1000 years ago when it was practically impossible to fight anyone who didn't live in your continental neighborhood... not so anymore... shoot we could literally launch an attack on mars if we wanted to, now...

Do not think peace will come, your fooling yourselves. If not this war, there will always be another...

go ahead and wish for peace. I have better things to do...


I agree with you that World peace is very unlikely anytime soon. However, as a country we can have peace in terms of not being at war halfway across the world. There is always going to be crime and violence in this country so in that way peace will not be acheived. This is why we have law enforcement to control crime levels.

However, as human beings we are better than how we act as a whole. Human beings have one important characteristic that sets us apart from animals. That is our ability to REASON. We should be smart enough to know not to kill each other but humans also are consumed by greed and power and violence. It really is a shame that we don't use more of our skills in positive ways as opposed to negative ways.
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  #52  
Old 11-08-2008, 10:07 PM
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I was pretty undecided for a long time on this election but then I came across this site here:

http://obama-mccain.info/index-obama-mccain.php

I am always very hesitant to chose a side in politics since actions and words do not always line up. This site goes issue by issue and is independent and objective.

After reading through all the issues I had to side with Obama on this one and cannot understand why anybody would side with McCain aside from 3 issues: they are simply ignorant of the issues or how policy actually works, they think that being christian means you should vote republican (give me a break, like repubs give a **** about christ), or they are racist. Period.

Here's a breakdown on the issues how I see it:
1. Abortion - McCain says life begins at conception. Science proves otherwise since 30 some percent of conceptions won't even become a fetus. Furthermore, it has been PROVEN that the only thing banning abortion does is make more people die. People WILL abort regardless of legality. The war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs - aka, not successful at all.

2. Budget - neither party is interested in curbing government spending, removing the ability to add earmarks to bills, or hold anybody accountable. So this is really a toss up.

3. Deficit - Repubs have consistantly said they are for small government and low spending but all their actions speak much differently. We need a democrat to get us out of deficit.

4. Education - Obama was an educator so he understands the problems with the systems. McCain is completely 100% oblivious. I'm a teacher so I know what is happening with the education system. NCLB is a disaster and vouchers/merit pay would drive 50% of teachers out of teaching.

5. Foreign Affairs - Obama wants to focus on Afghanistan and tribal regions in Pakistan. This is and has always been the true battle ground. Iraq has ***k all to do with Al Queda and 911. We need to leave Iraq as quickly as is possible (without letting it slide into chaos). McCain's ideas on foreign policy are the SAME as Bush's. Both don't have a clue how to "protect America."

6. Taxes - Taxing the rich more makes sense. Period. I'm an econ major so I have some room to speak here. The Rich benefit more from the things the government provides. Infrastructure and education being two major examples. Furthermore, the rich won't care if you tax their capital gains 20% or 40% they WILL STILL INVEST because it is the best way to make money when you have capital to invest. They won't just let their money sit idle. The Repub stance on the economy makes no sense fundamentally. This recession is due to Greenspan's unregulated free market principals which is a Repub dream become nightmare.

7. Healthcare - The USA lacks universal healthcare. In my opinion this makes us a joke of a country. Its 2008. People should be able to take their kid in for some antibiotics. That's the bottom line. I don't care how much it costs. This should be a fundamental right according to the Bill of Rights.


Everything else is irrelavent.

Last edited by richnewton; 11-08-2008 at 10:10 PM.
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  #53  
Old 11-08-2008, 10:39 PM
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that makes alot of sense. Maybe ill stay in the country. LOL
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  #54  
Old 11-08-2008, 10:45 PM
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Obama isn't going to pull all troops out immediately and turn it into a disaster. Ending the war in Iraq will start the process of peace.

I agree, I don't think he will pull them out. But I think McCain would have finished the war as well in a responsible manner.


Other countries perceptions are very important. It is great to be proud to be an American but lets face it we need other nations. We need them for natural resources and for our economy. Not to mention that having friends in the world means that you have less enemies that want to see you go down in flames.
I understand, but, I am saying, there is practically no way the USA is ever going to do something so extreme, that a huge majority of countries would refuse to trade with us. Other countries need our economy just as much as we need theirs.
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  #55  
Old 11-09-2008, 12:55 AM
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^ How exactly would McCain do a better job in Iraq? The only person out of anybody who's had anything to do with Iraq that's done a halfway decent job over the past 20 years of us being there (yes we've been at war with iraq for basically 2 decades) is Petraeus. Obama will probably have him as Chairman of the Joint Cheifs. So how is that any worse than McCain? McCain's idea of foreign policy isn't something I want any part of and Palin knows even less of foreign policy than most high school students.

Economics isn't the reason we want to be on good terms with the world. We spend something like 500-800 billion each year on defense alone. That's as much as we spend on everything else aside from SS/Medicare. That's absurd and its a result of our empire expanding out of control. We have military bases in over 150 countries because we feel a need to police the world. That has breed contempt for us world wide. We have used so many peoples to meet our own ends that they are turning on. Osama used to be our proxy, now he's our enemy. And the same thing has happened dozens of times over worldwide. We need to stop toying with other people's business and pull out. American Empire needs to stop because we are going to bring ourselves down either from within economically or without by becoming everybody's enemy.

Last edited by richnewton; 11-09-2008 at 01:00 AM.
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  #56  
Old 11-09-2008, 01:31 AM
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^ How exactly would McCain do a better job in Iraq? The only person out of anybody who's had anything to do with Iraq that's done a halfway decent job over the past 20 years of us being there (yes we've been at war with iraq for basically 2 decades) is Petraeus. Obama will probably have him as Chairman of the Joint Cheifs. So how is that any worse than McCain? McCain's idea of foreign policy isn't something I want any part of and Palin knows even less of foreign policy than most high school students.

Economics isn't the reason we want to be on good terms with the world. We spend something like 500-800 billion each year on defense alone. That's as much as we spend on everything else aside from SS/Medicare. That's absurd and its a result of our empire expanding out of control. We have military bases in over 150 countries because we feel a need to police the world. That has breed contempt for us world wide. We have used so many peoples to meet our own ends that they are turning on. Osama used to be our proxy, now he's our enemy. And the same thing has happened dozens of times over worldwide. We need to stop toying with other people's business and pull out. American Empire needs to stop because we are going to bring ourselves down either from within economically or without by becoming everybody's enemy.
McCain was a proponent of the surge that helped us turn the tide in Iraq. I reaize that Petraeous doesn't credit all of the success to the surge but he certainly acknowledges it.

I agree with you about having bases in 150 countries. I feel that is unnecessary. And regardless of how we got into Iraq, I think we can all agree that since we are there, we need to finish the job and leave them safely.
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  #57  
Old 11-09-2008, 01:34 AM
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The surge isn't the reason there is less violence. The reason there is less violence is because we finally opened up to dialouge to fringe groups and got them on our team to win the war with us. We could have sent 20 million GIs into Iraq and it wouldn't have solved ****. Getting the Iraqi's on our side is how the war is being won.
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  #58  
Old 11-09-2008, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
I was pretty undecided for a long time on this election but then I came across this site here:

http://obama-mccain.info/index-obama-mccain.php

I am always very hesitant to chose a side in politics since actions and words do not always line up. This site goes issue by issue and is independent and objective.

After reading through all the issues I had to side with Obama on this one and cannot understand why anybody would side with McCain aside from 3 issues: they are simply ignorant of the issues or how policy actually works, they think that being christian means you should vote republican (give me a break, like repubs give a **** about christ), or they are racist. Period.

Here's a breakdown on the issues how I see it:
1. Abortion - McCain says life begins at conception. Science proves otherwise since 30 some percent of conceptions won't even become a fetus. Furthermore, it has been PROVEN that the only thing banning abortion does is make more people die. People WILL abort regardless of legality. The war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs - aka, not successful at all.

2. Budget - neither party is interested in curbing government spending, removing the ability to add earmarks to bills, or hold anybody accountable. So this is really a toss up.

3. Deficit - Repubs have consistantly said they are for small government and low spending but all their actions speak much differently. We need a democrat to get us out of deficit.

4. Education - Obama was an educator so he understands the problems with the systems. McCain is completely 100% oblivious. I'm a teacher so I know what is happening with the education system. NCLB is a disaster and vouchers/merit pay would drive 50% of teachers out of teaching.

5. Foreign Affairs - Obama wants to focus on Afghanistan and tribal regions in Pakistan. This is and has always been the true battle ground. Iraq has ***k all to do with Al Queda and 911. We need to leave Iraq as quickly as is possible (without letting it slide into chaos). McCain's ideas on foreign policy are the SAME as Bush's. Both don't have a clue how to "protect America."

6. Taxes - Taxing the rich more makes sense. Period. I'm an econ major so I have some room to speak here. The Rich benefit more from the things the government provides. Infrastructure and education being two major examples. Furthermore, the rich won't care if you tax their capital gains 20% or 40% they WILL STILL INVEST because it is the best way to make money when you have capital to invest. They won't just let their money sit idle. The Repub stance on the economy makes no sense fundamentally. This recession is due to Greenspan's unregulated free market principals which is a Repub dream become nightmare.

7. Healthcare - The USA lacks universal healthcare. In my opinion this makes us a joke of a country. Its 2008. People should be able to take their kid in for some antibiotics. That's the bottom line. I don't care how much it costs. This should be a fundamental right according to the Bill of Rights.


Everything else is irrelavent.
#2. Agreed, it is quite sad really. As a said before, the Republicans are too far left for me. They blew their chance to be fiscally conservative when they had the Congress.

#3. Agree about the Republicans blowing it, but I do not believe the Democrats will get us out of the deficit either. Refer back to your own #2.

#4. You and I have different theories on education, but I agree that NCLB is a disaster.

#5, 6, 7. We will have to disagree on these. We come from different schools of thought.

Iíll address abortion in a separate reply.
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  #59  
Old 11-09-2008, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by richnewton View Post
The surge isn't the reason there is less violence. The reason there is less violence is because we finally opened up to dialouge to fringe groups and got them on our team to win the war with us. We could have sent 20 million GIs into Iraq and it wouldn't have solved ****. Getting the Iraqi's on our side is how the war is being won.
I don't believe you can separate that into an either/or situation. Fringe groups were more likely to join us if they believed we had a chance at success. The surge and talking with fringe groups both feed off of each other and benefit each other.
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  #60  
Old 11-09-2008, 02:15 AM
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1. Abortion - McCain says life begins at conception. Science proves otherwise since 30 some percent of conceptions won't even become a fetus. Furthermore, it has been PROVEN that the only thing banning abortion does is make more people die. People WILL abort regardless of legality. The war on abortion would be as successful as the war on drugs - aka, not successful at all.


Your first sentence,McCain says life begins at conception has nothing to do with your second, Science proves otherwise since 30 percent of conceptions won’t even become a fetus.

Life begins at conception, but is called an embryo (see TECHNICAL down below). A mother’s body may abort the embryo for various reasons, but that is different from a mother DECIDING to abort the baby. So yes, some embryo’s don’t make it to the fetus stage, but that hardly qualifies as an excuse to kill the embryo.

Nothing magical happens when the baby is termed a fetus. Let’s think logically, did a non-life suddenly become life? Did a non-human suddenly become human? Isn’t it much more reasonable to presume that two humans mate and create a human? If you are going to argue it isn’t human because it is not fully formed, than how are infants any different? An infant has vast differences from an adult body (about 4 times smaller, different limb proportions, vastly less mental ability).

Two things I find particularly devastating to abortion’s case is the Hippocratic Oath and that often by the time a women knows she is pregnant, her baby already has a heartbeat and brain waves. Both are in more detail below.

Please take time to read:

In 1948, Dr. Bradley Patten, one ofthe most distinguished embryologists in the world definitively related in his textbook ( I ). "It Is the penetration of the ovum by the spermatzoon and the resulting mingling ofthe nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual. In the midst of the current Genetic Revolution, one of the foremost, highly honored geneticist in the world, Jerome Lejeune, M. D., Ph.D., Professor of Genetics at the University of Paris and Sorbonne, related, "...each of us has a unique beginning, the moment of conception...when the information carried by the sperm and by the ovum have encountered each other, then a new human being is defined because its own personal and human constitution is entirely spelled out.

It is now an established fact that the DNA in the fertilized ovum bears the code for both human life and individuality which is passed on to every cell in the development of the embryo. Every cell, whether it be blood, brain, skin, liver, heart or any organ at any stage of existence can be typed to identify that particular human being. The important thing to remember is that the fertilized egg or zygote contains all of the genetic material needed to create the fully expressed individual and includes inherent complex encoding for individual human interjection and all the other associated qualities characteristic of human personhood.

Another important area that must be addressed is the assertion by freedom of choice advocates that the conceptus is part of the mother's body and therefore she has a right to do what she wants regarding her own body.This is completely incorrect. The conceptus is a separate and distinct human being and contains its own 46 individualized chromosomes different from that of the mother throughout all stages of development. They each have a separate circulation, separate organs as brain, heart, kidneys, liver, the same or different blood types, and are of the same or different sex

The mother onlyprovides shelter, nutrition and oxygen and does not direct the development of the conceptus. The latter is completely directed by the genetic code of the conceptus.

http://e-forensicmedicine.net/code.htm

Some people who believe life begins at conception;
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

“I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.” Hippocrates, 400 B.C., Greece

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic

"To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence." The "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Univ. of Descarte, Paris

At the average time when a woman is aware that she is pregnant (the fifth to sixth week after conception), the preborn human being living inside her is metabolizing nutrition, excreting waste, moving, sucking his or her thumb, growing, and doing many other things that non-living things just do not do. As early as 21 days after conception, the baby’s heart has begun to beat his or her own unique blood-type, often different than the mother’s. (Moore & Persaud, The Developing Human, p.310; Nilsson & Hamberger, A Child is Born, p.86; Rugh & Shettles, From Conception to Birth, p.217.) At 40 days after conception, brain waves can be read on an EEG, or an electroencephalogram. (Dr. H. Hamlin, Life or Death by EEG, JAMA, Oct.12, 1964, p.113.)

http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

TECHNICAL INFO:

Fertilization
If sperm does meet and penetrate a mature egg after ovulation, it will fertilize it. When the sperm penetrates the egg, changes occur in the protein coating around it to prevent other sperm from entering. At the moment of fertilization, your baby's genetic make-up is complete, including its sex. Since the mother can provide only X chromosomes (she's XX), if a Y sperm fertilizes the egg, your baby will be a boy (XY); if an X sperm fertilizes the egg, your baby will be a girl (XX).
Implantation
Within 24-hours after fertilization, the egg begins dividing rapidly into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days. The fertilized egg (called a zygote) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus where its next job is to attach to the endometrium (a process called implantation). First the zygote becomes a solid ball of cells, then it becomes a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst. Before implantation, the blastocyst breaks out of its protective covering. When the blastocyst establishes contact with the endometrium, an exchange of hormones helps the blastocyst attach. Some women notice spotting (or slight bleeding) for one or two days around the time of implantation. The endometrium becomes thicker and the cervix is sealed by a plug of mucus.
Within three weeks, the blastocyst cells begin to grow as clumps of cells within that little ball, and the baby's first nerve cells have already formed. Your developing baby is called an embryo from the moment of conception to the eighth week of pregnancy. After the eighth week and until the moment of birth, your developing baby is called a fetus.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/understanding-conception
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