Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all? - Page 3 - ABCbodybuilding

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  #21  
Old 08-05-2006, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

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Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it

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Really fast, vitamins aren't naturally occuring in a multivitamin, but we still eat those.

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..I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?
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  #22  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

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man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product. Do ARTIFICIAL FLAVOURS AT ALL go towards anabolism? If we are discussing "natural ingredients" then yeh you could say whey is not completely natural, but we are discussing if steroids are cheating and drawing the line on wether a supplement is natural or not is a key issue. So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?

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I see the points you're making. You keep saying that steroids are cheating and I already said that they are cheating if they are against the rules. I said in a previous post that I wish I had made the topic title different because that's not what I really wanted to talk about.

I said that a while ago:

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I wish I had made the topic title different, because I think we can ALL agree that steroids ARE cheating simply because they are against the rules. We all know that. I would like to sway away from that and what I really want to focus on is why if things are "natural" it sounds like they are great for you and you should be doing it that way. But if something is unnatural, it is all of a sudden the worst thing in the world?

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And that is why in my last big post I talked about things that you weren't talking about.

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man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product.

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And I already said before you even posted anything that I think steroids are cheating if they are against rules.




You brought up some interesting things like this:

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but for the average gym goer it IS cheating because it only takes a few injections per week (how hard is that?) to get some decent muscularity, which most people who choose the natural route spend hours per week preparing there food, spending money on supplements and getting 8.5 hours of sleep a night.

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And I'd like to ask, how can something be cheating if you aren't trying to win something and if there are no contests with rules or anything? For the average gym goer, I suppose that means they go to make themselves look better for personal reasons. And if they take steroids it is definately stupid, but certainly not cheating. It is the easy way, and so what? The only thing I can think of that he is cheating is himself by losing out on the things you gain from training other than muscle like work ethic and dedication. It's the short road, but people take the short road all the time in everyday situations.

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I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?

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Your're missing some of the points that I'm making too. That whole last post of mine with the examples was not to argue that steroids weren't cheating. It was to ask why in the hell it even matters if something is natural or "found in the food we eat". Read the examples again, they aren't arguing against a single statement that you had already made. They were simply to try to get you to understand how I feel and so that you could reply and answer to "Why does it matter?"

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I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?

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So, why is it okay to make synthetic vitamins but not ok to synthetically make something that isn't found in food?? What's the difference?

You'll probably want to say "Because it isn't natural" but that's not what I want to know. I already know that many people dislike things that are unnatural, which is why I made the hypothetical about the magic steroids that have no bad effects. I really would still like you to answer the questions that I proposed in my last post.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts so far and I'd like you to know that I think now, maybe whey and stuff is natural, I'm really not sure where to draw the line now. But to tell you the truth, I really couldn't give a crap if they are natural or not natural, it makes no difference no me. Either way, it's whey. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #23  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:31 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

Also, I'm sorry everything is getting so cluttered and disorganized, but I'll try to keep everything legible atleast.
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  #24  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

If there is anything specific that you think I have been missing, that you are trying to get across to me or want answered, could you ask again or point me to where it was?

Like for instance, I would really like it if you could answer the questions I have posted in my last couple of posts. So could you tell me exactly what you would like me to address?
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  #25  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

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So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?

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Well, I'm really not sure. I mean, I'm sorry if I seem redundant, but I still feel that although the ingredients are natural, whey, as a whole is not natural because it is made in a factory.

Oh and btw, when I said that whey is made in a lab, I meant that it was...can't think of the word...designed in a lab. Of course scientists don't stand around making whey by hand all day, but at one time, scientists sat in a lab and came up with how exactly they would make whey. And it obviously wasn't right the first time, so they had to plan modifications over and over again. And there are several different brands of whey, all made differently with different amino acid ratios and different amounts of fat and carbs and glutamine, etc. So thousands of hours have been spent by scientists to plan out how they will make whey. But yes, whey definately isn't mass produced by hand.

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PROTEINS are found in food. HORMONES are not. Does the method it is derived matter? Then don't eat cheese/dairy as that is created using scientific knowledge.

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And to answer this, I'll say again: I really couldn't care less if scienctists made a product or not, or whether it is naturally occuring or not, it makes no difference to me.
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  #26  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

Well I'm just as lost as you so I'll just walk myself away from this thread. No hard feelings though, I accept your point of view as legitamate
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  #27  
Old 08-05-2006, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

Thanks bro, I'll bet we disagree on these couple of things and maybe some more stuff too that we don't know about, but there's probably thousands of things that we do agree on. Like that steroids suck and the supplements recommended on abc are great. I'll bet we would make great training partners, we would be some of the most knowledgable and not to mention hardcore guys in the gym! [img]/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] As long as we weren't wasting gym time with discussions about what's natural and why it matters, etc! [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #28  
Old 08-05-2006, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

Isn't this the reason for the terms "unnatural," "natural," and "all-natural?" with respect to bodybuilders.

BB'ers who take whey and other supps are considered natural.
BB'ers who only take in food are considered all-natural.
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  #29  
Old 08-05-2006, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

That's right, Rocky. And regarding the point about artificial flavors, I think the issue is more that steroids have an unnatural EFFECT on your body, overriding the hormone regulation system God designed for us. So essentially we don't take them because they aren't safe. And I think a hypothetically safe hormone doesn't even make sense to bring up, at least to me. Could there be such a thing? I don't think so.
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  #30  
Old 08-06-2006, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

This is an awesome discussion!

I really like books argument that something is natural if you can consume it from a food product. This is actually what I was formulating in my mind, before I read his response. For instance, I can consume glutamine, leucine, HMB, and even creatine in food products. But we don’t actually consume insulin; we eat food such as glucose, which then stimulates the release of insulin. So we could say that consuming something which you cannot consume in food, would be unnatural.

On the other hand, Rocky’s suggest that a classification system of natural, all natural and unnatural would be advantageous. But how would we classify these. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] That would be up to debate; it seems rocky is suggesting perhaps a combination with books recommendation: eating whole foods is all natural; eating pills and supplements that you can get from whole foods is natural; and having substances that you do not consume from foods, is unnatural.

With this in mind, would we consider certain meats “unnatural”? Seriously: they put a lot of drugs into some of these animals. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Anyway, back to the question of:

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Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

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This is something I did a lot of research on and had some awesome discussions with in one of my Philosophy of Sport Master Courses a little while ago. Let me share with you guys my findings. Let me know what you think.

I published it on ABC for you guys to read. Here is a link to a brief paper I wrote on this topic.

Performance Enhancement Drugs

In summary: when analyzing all the arguments on why steroids should be banned, from my research, they all appeared to be flawed. The only valid argument that I have read, of which, I have seen no logical rebuttal to, is that allowing athletes to consume drugs, will harm other people, because they will be pressured to also take drugs, in order to keep up with their competition. And lastly, they are unethical, in that they give precedence to the performance of the athlete, rather than the athlete’s health.
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