Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all? - Page 2 - ABCbodybuilding

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  #11  
Old 08-04-2006, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

How do you guys feel about my opinions, and can you back up yours(especially JohnCrab) so that I can better understand why you think the way you do on this subject? Because John, I completely respect your opinions, but I totally disagree with them and I don't fully understand them.

I mean, if I made one or two people change their mind about this subject and agree with me, I would be happy. But if I didn't, I would atleast want to be able to FULLY understand your guys thinking. If I don't get the former or the latter, than this discussion was a complete waste of time for me.

Specifically, John, you could tell me what you think natural means. I can see where you are drawing your line, but just given the info you've given me, I can't understand why for example, you think supplements are natural while steroids aren't.

[ QUOTE ]
Steroids unnaturally increase the amount of testosterone in your body, whereas sound diet and the use of creatine, whey, vitamins, and other supplements merely put your body into optimal performance. Steroids = unnatural increase. Supplements = optimally performing body. Supplements are more effective than just food, but still natural. That's my opinion anyway.

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When I read your post, I can easily use the transitive property to come to the solution that Supplements = steroids. For example, if steroids = unnatural increase and supplements = optimally performing body, and unnatural increase = optimally performing body, so supplements = steroids. Meaning that supplements aren't actually a steroid, but that they are both unnatuaral and used for the same thing.
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  #12  
Old 08-04-2006, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
JohnCrab said it. Taking steroids is very very harmful as well, results kidney failure, liver damage, impotence (shrunken testicles to the size of peanuts once you are off steroids, unable of getting eraction for the rest of your life), vascular plague and ultimately results in heart attacks and death and much more.

Bodybuilding is like many other sports, supposed to improve the quality of life. Steroids violate this ideology and is therefore considered illegal, and taking them would be cheating in my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said here except for the first sentence.
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  #13  
Old 08-04-2006, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
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They're not available to those of us who want to do it legally.

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this one i dont understand here is a fact for everyone more people would die in a year from alcohol abuse and smokin than people have ever died from using steroids hmmmm and which are legal again lol

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First off, alcohol HAS been illegal. Secondly, lets compare the number of people who takes steroids and the number of people who drink alcohol? If you set the # of steroids users equal to the number of people who are drinking alcohol, it'd be a different story.
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  #14  
Old 08-04-2006, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

The reason people consider steroids cheating is because it is the easy way out. My statement does not cover bodybuilders trying to get over 200lb's ripped or hardcore powerlifters trying to push it to the next leve, but for the average gym goer it IS cheating because it only takes a few injections per week (how hard is that?) to get some decent muscularity, which most people who choose the natural route spend hours per week preparing there food, spending money on supplements and getting 8.5 hours of sleep a night.

The myth that people need to still work hard on steroids is a myth - half my gym is on them. While I have seen a few lanky guys who were/are augmented, I have seen guys blow up and shrink but I've also seen many guys start at the gym and 3 months later, after a good long cycle, pressing 220lb's for reps and gaining what looks to be 20-30lb's of muscle. It's almost summer here and I can just imagine when I head into the gym I'll see 3-4 guys pressing 35lb dumbells and then in 2.5 months pressing 85's ripped. Unless they have some insane sort of dedication and knowledge that last for 4-5 months then I doubt they work as hard as a natural lifter.

Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand everything your saying, but what if there was a food with testosterone in it? Then it would be in ourselves and in the food we eat too. Don't a lot of the users drink their steroids in a milkshake? Like that muscular kid that is on tv, his dad fed him "chocolate mystery shakes" as early as he can remember and had him lifting when he was like 2. And I remember seeing someone else who talked about his friends giving him chocolate shakes after he worked out and then he got addicted to taking steroids. Those steroids were in food, does that make those steroids more natural than others?

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Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

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We supplement with "Whey Protein Powder", not food. Scientists make this stuff in a lab. They have all these processes where they filter out the proteins and remove lactose and fat, etc, until it isn't even a dairy product anymore, it's just a powder. You can't squeeze powder from a cow. If we wanted to get "natural" protein pwo, we'd be eating eggs and we'd wash it down with milk straight from a cow. Imo, that would be more natural, wouldn't it?
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Old 08-04-2006, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

The majority of steroids out there come from horse urine. That's right, horse piss. That's not natural at all.

And i'm not saying that from a "drinking piss is disgusting" point of view. They extract the testosterone hormones from that. And, book is 100% correct. We arent eating testosterone. We might be eating foods that stimulate the increase of testosterone in our bodies, but we are not sticking extra testosterone in ourselves.

I also don't need to mention the fact that, as many people have said, is the easy way out.
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  #17  
Old 08-05-2006, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand everything your saying, but what if there was a food with testosterone in it? Then it would be in ourselves and in the food we eat too. Don't a lot of the users drink their steroids in a milkshake? Like that muscular kid that is on tv, his dad fed him "chocolate mystery shakes" as early as he can remember and had him lifting when he was like 2. And I remember seeing someone else ho talked about his friends giving him chocolate shakes after he worked out and then he got addicted to taking steroids. Those steroids were in food, does that make those steroids more natural than others?

Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it
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[ QUOTE ]
Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

We supplement with "Whey Protein Powder", not food.

Scientists make this stuff in a lab. They have all these processes where they filter out the proteins and remove lactose and fat, etc, until it isn't even a dairy product anymore, it's just a powder. You can't squeeze powder from a cow. If we wanted to get "natural" protein pwo, we'd be eating eggs and we'd wash it down with milk straight from a cow. Imo, that would be more natural, wouldn't it?

PROTEINS are found in food. HORMONES are not. Does the method it is derived matter? Then don't eat cheese/dairy as that is created using scientific knowledge.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of a red herring argument?

I say steroids arent naturally found in food - you say they are if they are put in there. Well...thats a no brainer

Secondly protein is found in food. We are supplementing with protein - does the form it comes in matter? tell me can you directly supplement hormones from food you eat?

You have gone off your original argument saying that whey is now no longer natural because it is "made in a lab" (it isn't firstly, it's made on a production line just like..o wait most meats, dairy and bread products). Just because whey is ultra filtered does not make it unnatural - cheese and yoghurt would also be "unnatural" in that case as specific scientific knowledge is used to create them (as is dehydrated milk and pasturized egg whites).
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  #18  
Old 08-05-2006, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

Ok, I'll agree with you there for the most part. You bring up some good points.

What I really want to do is change the subject to something else.

On the Whey tub it even says it has "artificial flavors". Uh-oh, not everything is natural, it must be bad for you. Why is it so important for everything to be natural any way?

They are making some really incredibly accurate synthetic diamonds these days. You could give a girl a fake diamond and she might not know it's fake for the rest of her life. And it would still make her just as happy as if it were real; it had the same effect on her because it is beatiful and represents your love for her.

Now if this girl somehow found out that it was fake, she would be pissed. Why? Because apparently now it isn't about the stone being beautiful, it isn't about the love between you two, it's all of a sudden a horrible present because it isn't natural. Even though it is still as pretty as a real one.

See what I'm saying? What's the big deal here, why does it matter if something is natural or not as long as it does the same thing?

Also, what if tomorrow there is a news story about how scientists have found a way to make a safe steroid, with no more side effects than whey, but that works JUST as good as the old steroids. They say the FDA has decided to make this legal. So then you decide to wait ten years to see if anything bad happens to anybody and it turns out it really is safe. And so now there is a completely safe steroid that pretty much EVERYONE is taking, do you take it or do you not because it isn't "natural"? Do you really care then?

I guess what I'm trying to do is change the argument "I don't take steroids because they aren't natural" to I don't take steroids because they are extremely bad for you and because it has a bad rep."

If there's a really nice girl at your school but everyone in the school think she is easy and everyone says she has diseases and all this stuff. (I know, what a great example, huh?) And you really like her because she's nice to you. You're not going to go out with her because it isn't safe (diseases) and mostly because people will start talking and pretty soon you'll have a bad rep. I think that is why people don't take steroids. Not because it is unnatural, but because it isn't safe and because you care what your peers think of you and your rep could get destroyed if you do take steroids, even though it might be tempting if you are desperate.

And that is why a lot of people who do take them keep it secret, because they have an extremely bad reputation.

Well, keep the discussion goin, but I won't be on for a couple of hours to respond. My families going out to dinner. See ya guys. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #19  
Old 08-05-2006, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it

[/ QUOTE ]

Really fast, vitamins aren't naturally occuring in a multivitamin, but we still eat those.
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  #20  
Old 08-05-2006, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll agree with you there for the most part. You bring up some good points.

What I really want to do is change the subject to something else.

On the Whey tub it even says it has "artificial flavors". Uh-oh, not everything is natural, it must be bad for you. Why is it so important for everything to be natural any way?

They are making some really incredibly accurate synthetic diamonds these days. You could give a girl a fake diamond and she might not know it's fake for the rest of her life. And it would still make her just as happy as if it were real; it had the same effect on her because it is beatiful and represents your love for her.

Now if this girl somehow found out that it was fake, she would be pissed. Why? Because apparently now it isn't about the stone being beautiful, it isn't about the love between you two, it's all of a sudden a horrible present because it isn't natural. Even though it is still as pretty as a real one.

See what I'm saying? What's the big deal here, why does it matter if something is natural or not as long as it does the same thing?

Also, what if tomorrow there is a news story about how scientists have found a way to make a safe steroid, with no more side effects than whey, but that works JUST as good as the old steroids. They say the FDA has decided to make this legal. So then you decide to wait ten years to see if anything bad happens to anybody and it turns out it really is safe. And so now there is a completely safe steroid that pretty much EVERYONE is taking, do you take it or do you not because it isn't "natural"? Do you really care then?

I guess what I'm trying to do is change the argument "I don't take steroids because they aren't natural" to I don't take steroids because they are extremely bad for you and because it has a bad rep."

If there's a really nice girl at your school but everyone in the school think she is easy and everyone says she has diseases and all this stuff. (I know, what a great example, huh?) And you really like her because she's nice to you. You're not going to go out with her because it isn't safe (diseases) and mostly because people will start talking and pretty soon you'll have a bad rep. I think that is why people don't take steroids. Not because it is unnatural, but because it isn't safe and because you care what your peers think of you and your rep could get destroyed if you do take steroids, even though it might be tempting if you are desperate.

And that is why a lot of people who do take them keep it secret, because they have an extremely bad reputation.

Well, keep the discussion goin, but I won't be on for a couple of hours to respond. My families going out to dinner. See ya guys. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product. Do ARTIFICIAL FLAVOURS AT ALL go towards anabolism? If we are discussing "natural ingredients" then yeh you could say whey is not completely natural, but we are discussing if steroids are cheating and drawing the line on wether a supplement is natural or not is a key issue. So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?
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