How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats - Page 2 - ABCbodybuilding

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  #11  
Old 07-30-2006, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

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No question on the RDA argument though. Its way outdated and inefficient for normal people let alone BBers.

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Outdated is the perfect word [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2006, 12:15 PM
William Wallace William Wallace is offline
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

This site talks about the benefits of fish over flax, though actually it talks about seal oil which isn't available. http://www.omega3sealoil.com

On one page, it quotes the book "Protein Power" in regards to the human body's capability to convert ALA to EPA/DHA.

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... but taking flax seed oil is kind of like buying crude oil and running it through your home distillery to make gasoline for you car. If that's the only way you can get gasoline, then that's what you have to do. If you can buy the gasoline already distilled, however, it is much more efficient to do that and avoid the hassle of the home distillation process.


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It discusses the good and the bad of fish oil (because the site touts seal oil). One bad element is that you can't trust the amount of Omega-3 the way you can in flax:
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The fatty acid content of fish oil depends upon the species, season, latitude and thus the temperature, fresh or salt water, and finally its gender. It can be noted that the female with its roe, is a much richer source of fatty acids than the male. Cold water fish are the richest sources of DHA and EPA. Some species contain more than others, and the content of an individual species varies somewhat from fish to fish. The DHA content of farmed vs. wild fish can be considerably different depending upon the feed given to commercially raised fish. The source of fish is also important. Antarctica has cleaner waters than many other regions used for fish catches. For example, anchovies from Antarctica are very small fish, high in Omega 3 fatty acid content and very low on the food chain.

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Also, fish oil comes from the by-product of fish processing waste - often fish subject to heat, spoiling, etc. Peroxide levels tend to be high (molecular distillation probably gets rid of the peroxide, though).

My own analysis is that flax oil provides about 1/3 the amount of EPA/DHA after conversion from ALA as that found in fish oil (assuming optimum conversion rates of 10% EPA and 5% DHA which, if we are eating clean and watching our saturated fats and w6:w3 ratios and supplementing correctly, hopefully isn't a bad assumption). Flax, on the other hand, has 1/4 the amount of saturated fat as in fish oil. So it seems that you're substituting one good for one bad. Personally, I'm going to stick to the previous advice and mix the two oils in my diet.
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Saturated fat isn't bad though. And if you use fish oil pills then you don't have to worry about how much EPA and DHA the salmon I bought today happens to have. Of course, it also assumes you're buying a trustworthy source of fish oil pills.
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Speaking of, I am curious what fish oil supplement you guys use. Looking around they do vary somewhat in EPA/DHA content. This one lacks the cholesterol and calories found in several others I looked at, although it is more expensive:
http://www.sann.net/triplefishfats.html#

At risk of a touchy subject, I wonder if you guys think the caloric efficiency of a premium oil is worth the cost.
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  #15  
Old 08-01-2006, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Excellent Research, William Wallace!!!

I think there is a lot of validity to the issue of eating whole fish for your source of EPA and DHA. Farmed fish does appear to have less of these fats; it also contains some toxins which may be hazardous to health. So if you are going to have fish, you should do your research, and get a fish such as salmon, that is fresh, and in season. Otherwise, you will not get optimal results.

Concerning saturated fats, you want to have a little bit in your diet. This is because they are very important for the production of anabolic hormone such as testosterone. It appears that polyunsaturated fats do not have this effect, however. So if all your fats are from EFAs, your hormones will suffer.

But, there are alternatives to saturated fats from meats; which, in excess may have side effects such as increased cholesterol, etc. For this, I would check out my first fat efficiency in the diet thread if you have not. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, I think the best way to avoid all these issues, is to just get some fish oil, or fish oil pills, as TheShanMan advised. However, you are going to want to purchase a pharmaceutical-grade fish oil, that filters toxins.

didymus

I have used this for a long time, http://www.netrition.com/pbl_pure_omega3_page.html

From my research, this one appeared to have the highest EPA/DHA density; and it is void of toxins.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:31 PM
William Wallace William Wallace is offline
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Interestingly enough, Venom's link to "pharmaceutical grade Fish Oil" proves that not all fish oils are created equal. The brand that I've been taking only has 1.25 grams of omega-3 as well as 1.5 g of saturated fat per teaspoon whereas the product Venom mentions has 2.7 g of omega-3 and no saturated fat per teaspoon. So using your product simply blows my analysis out of the water.

If your goal is to increase EPA and DHA intake, clearly taking this brand of fish oil beats Flax for efficiency and there doesn't seem to be a need to take Flax. But, I've been taking about 3-4 tablespoons of flax per day (hopefully inducing thermogenesis). 4 tablespoons of fish oil in it's place would up the EPA/DHA intake at least 1000% - and that assumes my body has been optimally converting the ALA in the flax oil. The next question, then, is: is there a such thing as ingesting too much EPA/DHA?
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

This is a great question I would also like to know lol. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The optimal dosage of omega 3 fats, to my knowledge, has not been determined.

Just as a thought, one side effect I have heard from having too much fish oil, is that it can thin your blood too much, and increase bleading. This is because it blocks sticky platelets. I think including some omega 6 fats in your diet will help balance this issue, however.


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4 tablespoons of fish oil in it's place would up the EPA/DHA intake at least 1000% -

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Well, the point of optimizing nutrient efficiency is that you don't need as much fish oil! So I would at least cut your dosage in half. And I would bet you would get the same, if not greater benefits, AND lose more fat, due to less calories. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Two tablespoons sounds great to me.
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  #18  
Old 08-01-2006, 09:09 PM
William Wallace William Wallace is offline
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

I saw the same on a few websites regarding thinning of the blood if too much is consumed as well as a site stating that too much DHA will block absortion of Omega-6 (AA) into the brain but no definition of what "too much" is. Sounds like a potential Hyperplasia research article [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Thanks for the link venom, that product seems to be exactly like the one I linked in terms of EPA/DHA percentages, but a more expensive and lacking saturated fats (which is good).
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2006, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: How to Optimize Fat Efficiency in the Diet Part II - Essential Fats

Heres a fairly interesting study re: dosages:

[ QUOTE ]
Distribution, interconversion, and dose response of n3 fatty acids in humans
Linda M Arterburn, Eileen Bailey Hall and Harry Oken

SUMMARY

Human plasma and tissues are responsive to dietary intake of the long-chain n3 fatty acids, and levels increase in plasma and tissues in a dose-dependent manner. The most effective way to increase a particular n3 fatty acid is to provide that specific dietary fatty acid, because interconversion of the n3 fatty acids is limited in humans. ALA accumulates only to a minor extent, most likely as the result of increased oxidation at higher doses, and modestly raises EPA but not DHA. Plasma phospholipid EPA concentrations increase in a linear manner in response to dietary EPA, whereas dietary DHA causes a dose-dependent, saturable increase in plasma phospholipid DHA concentrations with doses up to {approx}2 g/d. Both DHA and EPA similarly reduce ARA concentrations in plasma. Tissue contents of long-chain n3 fatty acids increase in response to dietary DHA or EPA. Human milk content of DHA depends on maternal intake of this nutrient, and infant plasma DHA concentrations are responsive to the DHA amounts in their milk or formula feedings. The dose-response information provided herein should be useful in predicting efficient doses of n3 fatty acids for supplementation studies and for developing recommendations for intakes of specific n3 fatty acids.

[/ QUOTE ]
The relevant point being that DHA appears to be saturable @ 1.2g/d when combined with EPA. This is in contrast to EPA which doesnt appear to saturate. Not sure how much fish oil you're taking currently. I get about 900mg/d DHA and 1800mg/d EPA.
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