Failure Training

[Gain_is_Pain]

Just caught up on this thread and it is a really really interesting one.

Iwould agree that I would do more failure training whilst bulking as the increased nutrient intake would aid repair.

I also find I get a real big buzz from failure training - something to do with pushing myself to my limits.

[Ignoramus]

Definitely a matter of goals and situations. When I started lifting in hs, i went along with my coach's std 3 set of decreasing reps. i had a lot more time then and made decent gains. now im hitting 30 n i look fwd to the few workouts i can get in. personally for me, it is important that i get a full body workout so one set to failures is the most efficient and effective way to go for me.

Scientifically it adds up too. i forget where i got the article but one set to failure has shown to give 90% the gains of multiple set. once you have failed your muscles the effort it takes to do more just doesnt seem worth it. and if u dont take the muscle group to failure, the human body seems too effecient to want to build more muscle if it doesnt sense that it has to.

[D1ez]

I always believed that every set should be taken to failure, I maen if you aren't training to failure, what are you doing? tossing weights around for fun? anyone can do that, but not anyone has the intensity to reach 10-15 sets till failure

[Rain_Man]

i'd like to imput my view.

I had great gains while preforming moderate reps to near failure.

then on the last set preform it to complete failure and move on to the next exercise. it was motivating + challenging.

[Ignoramus]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd like to imput my view.

I had great gains while preforming moderate reps to near failure.

then on the last set preform it to complete failure and move on to the next exercise. it was motivating + challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]

having u tried going to failure on only one set (excluding warm ups)? be interesting to compare the gains.

[kokokolo]

indeed, there should be some studies on this...

I always thought that after warming up each set should go to failure at the very minimum. Then use as many shock methods as possible on each set as you have the energy and mental focus for.

I found it interesting that many of you say you dont do this. I think I might try not pushing myself so hard mentally. As Ive noticed that back when I didnt push myself so hard, I would walk out of the gym feeling really good and ready to do stuff, and with some energy. Where now I just wanna spaz out after working out and sit by my TV, completely tired and mentally drained [img]/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[book]

If you guys read our posts and a post I made in the training forum on muscle fibers, you'll see that you don't need failure to recruite a maximum amount of fibers. Provided this only occurs with heavy weights done explosively, it is an important tool to use when you work a muscle 2x a week. Also I use Poliquins definition of failure - "attempting to perform a repetition but not being able to complete it with good form" which is IMO true failure - It's not like my sets are a breeze and if anything heavy 3-5 rep compounds are just as tiring.

Shocks are IMO overrated - those quadroople drop sets may pump you up amazingly well but are causing the weight used on the next few sets to be a lot lighter. If you are able to row 135lbs for 10 reps, do you really think fatiguing yourself to thepoint where your 4th set has you only being able to work with 75lbsx10. Do you guys think consistently using a warm up weight will cause much growth? IMO to a certain point that do - but only a few shocks per workout are needed. Pump and fatiguing a muscle are 1 way to gain muscle, but are not the sole way too.

Look at most powerlifters - you ever see them doing dropsets/supersets? No and they're 99% more muscular then bodybuilders. I bet a lot of people here know guys in there gym who are massive that don't do any shocks and probably don't take a proper post workout shake because working out is about the weight you use, not the pump you get. You will be a lot bigger benching 315, squatting/deadlifting 405+ then just every workout trying to think of some way to "change it up"

[D1ez]

so how do you train, book? 4-6 rep range, basically max-ot style

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
so how do you train, book? 4-6 rep range, basically max-ot style

[/ QUOTE ]

In short I do one heavy workout and 1 light workout, though some times I cycle exercises too. For my upcomming split which is...

upper
lower
off

I'm going to cylce heavy deadlifts and heavy squats with a quad emphasis in the deadlift session and a hamstring emphasis in the squat session. But for my upperbody days I'll just do 1 session heavy and 1 session light. For me, so far, this type of training has realised me the best gains - especially in trouble spots like my chest/shoulders used to be

I'm still looking for something for calves though - while my calves have improved a lot over the last year I, imo, don't think DUP is very effective for them. So i'll try other stuff [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I've actually done Max-OT before and believe what it teaches is great, but how it applies it is not so good.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*Added one more question, book sparked a good point, What is "failure"?

[/ QUOTE ]


Then again theirs also eccentric and static failure too..but I consider employing them as a 'shock' or something to be added in on certain situations..not something to build a routine around.

[/ QUOTE ]

We actually run a cool eccentric failure test in our lab. Its called reactive failure. What happens is an individual is placed on a biokinetic machine, their limb is straped in and they exert force against the transducer that is on their limb (its a cuff attachted to their limb, attached to a force transducer), then immediately the machine pulls against the direction you contracted (so if you did a leg extension it trys to pull you into leg flexion). If you are stronger eccentrically you stop the machine from moving you into flexion. But eventually you can no longer produce enough force to resist and the machine lengthens your muscle.
Markers of muscle damage are high after that!