Failure Training

[TasteLikeChicken]

Well I agree that failiure is not beign able to complete the concentric portion of a rep with good form or not being able to hold weight in a static position like you guys said.This is normaly how I describe failiure, however there is another type of failiure.

Think of it for a second, once you can't lift a weight on the concentric, you are not lacking a lot of strenght to do so; a spotter could lift the rest of the weight in a bench press with two fingers. So in reality you didn't realy fail you still have most of you strenght for more sets. If you are lifting heavy weights few muscle fibers have been stimulated and failed. If you don't get all questions right on a test and did 90%, you didn't fail. I think this type of failiure would have to be attained though multiple stip sets to stimulate lots of fibers, to the point where you cramp up and the weight is irrevelant. Like if you are doing leg curls with 70lbs to concentric failiure, striped and did the same with 60,50 and 40lbs you may cramp up and no longer be able to curl your legs with 10lbs.

I think that eccentric failiure is not possible, it can't be calculated unless you a shooting for a specific time.

What about rest-pauses? To attain failiure wouldn't you have to utilise them as much as possible?

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I agree that failiure is not beign able to complete the concentric portion of a rep with good form or not being able to hold weight in a static position like you guys said.This is normaly how I describe failiure, however there is another type of failiure.

Think of it for a second, once you can't lift a weight on the concentric, you are not lacking a lot of strenght to do so; a spotter could lift the rest of the weight in a bench press with two fingers. So in reality you didn't realy fail you still have most of you strenght for more sets. If you are lifting heavy weights few muscle fibers have been stimulated and failed. If you don't get all questions right on a test and did 90%, you didn't fail. I think this type of failiure would have to be attained though multiple stip sets to stimulate lots of fibers, to the point where you cramp up and the weight is irrevelant. Like if you are doing leg curls with 70lbs to concentric failiure, striped and did the same with 60,50 and 40lbs you may cramp up and no longer be able to curl your legs with 10lbs.

I think that eccentric failiure is not possible, it can't be calculated unless you a shooting for a specific time.

What about rest-pauses? To attain failiure wouldn't you have to utilise them as much as possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you thinking about literal muscular failure where the muscle itself just cannot do nearly as much as it normally could (just getting that from your example)? Well IMO you could achieve such a state with non-failure as well, it would just take more..maybe a lot more..sets.

hopefully i got it right

[huskerwr38]

As for a person who uses failure training on every set, I feel that TheMac is right in some cases. I feel that it does lead to overtraining if you are training 2x per week. I think I have made a mistake by doing this, my body is kinda hurting right now. My shoulder, my elbow, my knee are all hurting constantly. But it is probably like a 2 out of 10 on the pain scale.
So, do you think that I should only go to failure on my last set when doing high reps? Or on low rep days? I do get very very tired when doing bench and I do 12 reps to failure. Then for my second set of 10 I have to lower the weight a whole lot. So I'm thinking that maybe just go to failure on my last set on high rep days. But what about low rep days? This is a very interesting topic.

[TheMac]

Low rep days can should be the same, the muscle does not need to be taken to failure to induce growth. I would also recommend putting everything you have into each rep when not failure training. An interesting point on the subject would be that there are three ways recruit a maximal amount of motor units in a single set according to Zatsiorsky's Science and Practice of Strength Training:
1. Lift a maximal load.

2. Lift a submaximal load as fast as possible.

3. Lift a submaximal load to failure.

So if we want to maximize motor unit recruitment but not train to failure eplosive training seems to produce the most benefit.

[War5475]

Wow great thougts guys! I want to interject somthing here.

1. I dont feel that certain types of lifting work for everyone. You need to find what works for you.

2. I feel that continued changing of reps, sets and failure, no failure are needed to stave off stagnation.

3. I have found that since i now lift by feel rather than any set weight, rep, set standard I grow much more.

All this said. I train alot with failure but never for more than two weeks at a time. Then i switch to a range of reps high, medium, low depending on what im trying to acheive. However most of the time i even throw the low rep stuff in there for a week or two just to keep my body off balance.

I really dont know any pro or trainer who recomends failure all the time. This would definatly end in overtraining.

I will just leave you with this variety is the spice of life and I have found that so goes body building.

[TasteLikeChicken]

Well, i'm not realy knoledgeable in this but what I described earlier is probably muscular failiure. I have heard a lot about the nervous system failing before the muscle so that was what I was trying to get at.

I think failiure can be vary important and like to lift something like 12,10,9reps going to failiure each time with not to much rest between sets. This seems to create a better pump than resting enough between every set to do the same amount of reps(this never made sense to me) or even worse upping the weight. It would seem that if you can totaly exaust the muscle better, in less time this way. Is this kind of failiure good for hypertrophy?

Failiure only seems to be realy exausting if you do alot of reps, so I doubt it would be overtraining. For a while I did one set of pushups a day 'till failure and got good results(although I know that it is not optimal).

[newbuilder]

I have always thought of failure in weight lifting when I can no longer move the weight the full range of motion - even with a cheat rep. The muscle has been drained and can no longer work.

[book]

I've been thinking about this over the last few weeks and have come to a few more ideas.

Well I've been cutting and IMO (this goes to TheMac) you were right that stuff like dropsets/supersets should not be taken to failure but close to it, on a cut though. IMO on a bulk (which im doing now) failure on EVERY set except for heavy 3-5 rep sets

Also I have been thinking about the different adaptions different programs bring out. Failure is probably more suited for programs that center on breaking down a muscle for a rebound effect (shock training, HIT, high volume training) while non-failure training is best suited for programs that mainly center around weight progression.

Overall though I think they're CAN be a happy medium but it also goes by individual feel as well. I've read about people making great strength gains going to failure and others better not going to failure. This to me shows that people have different tolerances for it so it's best to experiment (just like dieting and training styles) what works best for you.

Anyone wanna comment on my post? Feel free I'd love it.

[TheMac]

[ QUOTE ]

Also I have been thinking about the different adaptions different programs bring out. Failure is probably more suited for programs that center on breaking down a muscle for a rebound effect (shock training, HIT, high volume training) while non-failure training is best suited for programs that mainly center around weight progression.


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Great input book!

You touched on a very important part of my idea, goals. While on a bulk my goals change than on a cut due to my caloric consumption. While cutting it is way harder for our muscles to repair properly from a ton of damage and excess volume. The goal of a properly developed cut is to maintain muscle mass (or slightly improve it) while dropping bodyfat. Research seen in the tapering articles here at ABC show that intensity is the #1 factor for keeping these adaptions therefore while one is dieting keeping intensity at it's highest is of the utmost importance. In order for this to happen you may need to lower volume and use less demanding workouts as to not cause excess stress.

While on a bulk though i do believe that the body can take a lot more and it is not as large an issue as their are nutrients available to rebuild.

Just a though,

-Mac

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also I have been thinking about the different adaptions different programs bring out. Failure is probably more suited for programs that center on breaking down a muscle for a rebound effect (shock training, HIT, high volume training) while non-failure training is best suited for programs that mainly center around weight progression.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great input book!

You touched on a very important part of my idea, goals. While on a bulk my goals change than on a cut due to my caloric consumption. While cutting it is way harder for our muscles to repair properly from a ton of damage and excess volume. The goal of a properly developed cut is to maintain muscle mass (or slightly improve it) while dropping bodyfat. Research seen in the tapering articles here at ABC show that intensity is the #1 factor for keeping these adaptions therefore while one is dieting keeping intensity at it's highest is of the utmost importance. In order for this to happen you may need to lower volume and use less demanding workouts as to not cause excess stress.

While on a bulk though i do believe that the body can take a lot more and it is not as large an issue as their are nutrients available to rebuild.

Just a though,

-Mac

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] thanks for the reply.

On a cut I found that tapering back on less important body parts allowed my weaker ones to catch up a lot quicker. So instead of equally distributing my volume, I gave more sets to lowerback work, calf work, chest/shoulders/tricep work and found they grew just fine while I was able to maintain all my other bodyparts.