Failure Training - ABCbodybuilding

Go Back   ABCbodybuilding > Scientist Department > HYPERplasia Research

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-16-2006, 11:51 PM
TheMac TheMac is offline
TheMac should change his/her status!
Light-Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,440
Default Failure Training

This has been a hot topic (for me at least) lately. I would be curious on some of your opinions on the subject.

What is "failure" in terms of resistance training?

What are the benefits?

What are the negatives?

Do the benefits of failure training outweigh the negatives?

Why do some strength coaches recommend it while others avoid it?

I would be curious to see what you guys think. I will post my opinion later [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/image...4105204854.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ikeEaglesa.jpg

"The truth Iíve discovered is that you donít have to lift enormous weights to grow muscle. By using stricter form, slower negatives, and stretching between sets you can get an incredible pump in all your workouts. Numbers are an abstraction, especially to muscles. Your body doesnít know the absolute weight of what you lift, it only recognizes how heavy it feels. The secret is to make lighter weights feel heavier. " - Frank Zane

"Sacrifice: To give up, destroy, renounce, and surrender your ego, excuses, bad habits, fears, and your couch - in the belief of an ideal or pursuit of a worthy goal."

"All thing are possible to him who believes." -Mark 9:23
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-17-2006, 01:17 AM
book book is offline
book should change his/her status!
Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,005
Default Re: Failure Training

This is all in my opinion

-Failure training is for lagging bodyparts/prioritising bodyparts in terms of hypertrophy.
-Failure training should be avoided for body parts that aren't lagging - but this ties into my next point
-Failure training is rough. Not to sound offensive to anybody here but I don't believe anyone can HONESTLY be as intense on there 1st set of the week compared to there 150th+ (talking about build up of fatigue). While these later sets are still productive they're not as harsh on the CNS as previous sets. There is a big difference between 1 rep before failure and true failure
-Failure training, while not counter productive for strength gains, doesn't allow you to train as frequently and causes more fatigue. But on the other hand adding in a set or 2 too complete failure will help train better motor unit firing

all of this is my opinion though.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-17-2006, 02:45 AM
TheMac TheMac is offline
TheMac should change his/her status!
Light-Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Failure Training

*Added one more question, book sparked a good point, What is "failure"?
__________________
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/image...4105204854.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ikeEaglesa.jpg

"The truth Iíve discovered is that you donít have to lift enormous weights to grow muscle. By using stricter form, slower negatives, and stretching between sets you can get an incredible pump in all your workouts. Numbers are an abstraction, especially to muscles. Your body doesnít know the absolute weight of what you lift, it only recognizes how heavy it feels. The secret is to make lighter weights feel heavier. " - Frank Zane

"Sacrifice: To give up, destroy, renounce, and surrender your ego, excuses, bad habits, fears, and your couch - in the belief of an ideal or pursuit of a worthy goal."

"All thing are possible to him who believes." -Mark 9:23
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-17-2006, 04:07 AM
book book is offline
book should change his/her status!
Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,005
Default Re: Failure Training

[ QUOTE ]
*Added one more question, book sparked a good point, What is "failure"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say "failure" is the inability to perform a concentric with a weight without assistance. So concentric failure is what I, and mostly everybody, refers to when talking about "Failure".

Then again theirs also eccentric and static failure too..but I consider employing them as a 'shock' or something to be added in on certain situations..not something to build a routine around.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-17-2006, 04:25 AM
TheMac TheMac is offline
TheMac should change his/her status!
Light-Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Failure Training

[ QUOTE ]


I would say "failure" is the inability to perform a concentric with a weight without assistance


[/ QUOTE ]

If i was still able to perform one more rep of Flat Barbell Press by arching my lower back and driving the bar up with my legs could that be considered failure?

Is the last rep of failure training always perfect form?
__________________
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/image...4105204854.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ikeEaglesa.jpg

"The truth Iíve discovered is that you donít have to lift enormous weights to grow muscle. By using stricter form, slower negatives, and stretching between sets you can get an incredible pump in all your workouts. Numbers are an abstraction, especially to muscles. Your body doesnít know the absolute weight of what you lift, it only recognizes how heavy it feels. The secret is to make lighter weights feel heavier. " - Frank Zane

"Sacrifice: To give up, destroy, renounce, and surrender your ego, excuses, bad habits, fears, and your couch - in the belief of an ideal or pursuit of a worthy goal."

"All thing are possible to him who believes." -Mark 9:23
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-17-2006, 04:28 AM
jth16 jth16 is offline
jth16 should change his/her status!
Middleweight
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 521
Default Re: Failure Training

I've actually thought about this a good bit before.
I define 'failure' into different categories.
1. A point reached during a set in which you can't do a repetition with correct form.

2. A point reached during a set in which to perform a repetion you must 'cheat'

3. A point reached in a set in which you are assisted on the concentric portion of the lift and only do the eccentric either by yourself or with some assistance.

4. A point in a workout reached in which you can't perform a certain movement with or without assistance and without a prolonged rest peroid.
Say for example at the end of a strip set or austrian blitz.


The benefits of going to failure are that you know the muscle fibers being trained are exhausted completely. Which results in the most hypertrohpy/ hyperplasia.

The negatives would be failure is a pain in the butt to reach, and when you perform a set in the hypertrophy range (6-12+ reps) and achieve failure within the set, you aren't acquiring any central nervous system adaptations. It isn't that you won't become stronger, but your one to five rep max won't go up much.

I personally believe that the positives outweigh the negatives, for bodybuilders especially whom which aren't concerned with one rep maxes. In the words of Shawn Ray, "How much I can bench is irrelevant to me, as long as my muscles are growing and improving. When I'm up there on stage, it won't matter whether I can bench 100 pounds or 500 pounds."

I can't say I remember been around a strength coach and them saying to do or don't reach failure.
Although, I would guess it is that same as with bodybuilders, but opposite. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Only train in the 1-5 rep range range without reaching failure, and a resting period of 3+ minutes. Because, strength athletes aren't concerned with muscle size.

I'm going to have to disagree with you book. I think failure should be reached every set, at least in one of the forms I defined, after doing a 1-3 sets of warm-up and stretching.

I implement both strength and hypertrophy geared sets into my workouts. I always do the strength sets first, because as book pointed out failure training causes more fatigue.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-17-2006, 07:03 AM
book book is offline
book should change his/her status!
Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,005
Default Re: Failure Training

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I would say "failure" is the inability to perform a concentric with a weight without assistance


[/ QUOTE ]

If i was still able to perform one more rep of Flat Barbell Press by arching my lower back and driving the bar up with my legs could that be considered failure?

Is the last rep of failure training always perfect form?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would consider that a type of assited rep - you're putting yourself in a more favourable position and so less stress on the target muscle.

So good point - add "good form" or non-deviating form into my definition.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-17-2006, 10:35 PM
TheMac TheMac is offline
TheMac should change his/her status!
Light-Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,440
Default Re: Failure Training

Alright here are a few of my thoughts on the subject, i actually think it is cool that opinions are so varied on the subject [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The benefits of failure training is that you recruit a maximum amount of muscle fibers and motor units per set. Jacob Wilson (The Prez) gives us a great illustration of this:
[ QUOTE ]
In principle, lets say that your set lasts 30 seconds. You would begin by recruiting a wave of your relatively smaller motor units.
Note though that I say relatively, because 30 seconds of all out activity is very intense relative to normal activity, and highly anaerbic. So this first wave to come into play in the first few seconds would be full of fast twitch muscle fibers, particularly IIA. Out of this population, the motor units to fatigue out first would be larger, less fatigue resistant. The motor units with more fatigue resistance, which are on the smaller end of the units recruited, would continue to contribute to force output. Following fatigue of the intermediate fibers, more fast twitch muscle fibers that are larger and less fatigue resistant would enter into the lift, but these would fatigue even faster then the previous ones that dropped out, causing you to relatively rapidly recruit even larger motor units.

Here is an illustration

A. Lets say that muscle fibers range from 1 Ė 100s to fatigue as they each contain differing endurance properties ( in reality, some slow Mus much greater endurance time, showing dozens minutes without fatigue)

Say that you lift a weight at a speed of 1 second a lift. On first lift one division of MUS recruited and the second not. Slow fatigue resistant and some intermediate fibers recruited first. After several lifts, some of Mus are fatigued. The ones with the lowest endurance become exhausted. For example after 6 reps, only MUS with endurance time under 6 seconds are exhausted. Now new Mus are recruited. These new ones are fast nonresistant to fatigue. They become exhausted quickly. If only 10 lifts of 12 performed the entire MU population can be divided into 3 divisions

1. Mus that are recruited but not fatigued Ė If they are not fatigued then the stimulus may not be high enough for adaptation . All MUS having endurance above 10 s are in this category. Without special training ST fibers will not adapt well.


2. MUS recruited and exhausted Ė These r the main MUS subjected to a serious training stimulus in this set. These possess intermediate features. In this population, no slowest( recruited but not fatigued) or fastest Mus ( not recruited).

A key point is that the corridor of MUS subjected to a stimulus may be relatively narrow or relatively broad depending on the weight lifted and number of reps per set. One objective of strength program can be to increase subpopulation of Mus influenced by training or Ď broaden the corridor Ď

3. Mus not recruited and therefore not trained Ė If you would have performed to failure the picture is changed in the final lifts. At failure a maximal # of available MUS r recruited.

All MUS r divided into two populations: exhausted and nonexhausted. The Training effect is substantial in first group only. If reps are 12 then all above 12 s fall into second group.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now the negative of failure training is the great amount of fatigue induced from it leading to a much more rapid progression to overtraining. This is not as great of an issue for people training a muscle group once a week but does become more of a problem once you reach 2-3 times a week.

In my own opinion i feel that failure training will slow progress if done on every set during a high frequency training program. With this in mind here is what i have came to think as "optimal".

Working to failure on the last set of an excercise will recruit fibers that would not be utilized in a non failure training set while keeping fatigue to a minimum. This also allows me to judge my progress by how many sets of a certrain weight i can keep at the same number of reps. If i reach failure earlier than i planned on it mighthint to me to lay off the volume a bit.

Also non faiure sets seem to be optimal for shocking methods, if you were to go to failure and then drop the weight you would need to drop it a lot to be able to keep going. By not training to failure before that drop endurance will be much better.

I want more opinions to keep comming through, this is great guys [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
__________________
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/image...4105204854.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ikeEaglesa.jpg

"The truth Iíve discovered is that you donít have to lift enormous weights to grow muscle. By using stricter form, slower negatives, and stretching between sets you can get an incredible pump in all your workouts. Numbers are an abstraction, especially to muscles. Your body doesnít know the absolute weight of what you lift, it only recognizes how heavy it feels. The secret is to make lighter weights feel heavier. " - Frank Zane

"Sacrifice: To give up, destroy, renounce, and surrender your ego, excuses, bad habits, fears, and your couch - in the belief of an ideal or pursuit of a worthy goal."

"All thing are possible to him who believes." -Mark 9:23
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-18-2006, 09:46 PM
**DONOTDELETE**
**DONOTDELETE** should change his/her status! Edit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Failure Training

I agree with everything you wrote except..

[ QUOTE ]
Also non faiure sets seem to be optimal for shocking methods, if you were to go to failure and then drop the weight you would need to drop it a lot to be able to keep going. By not training to failure before that drop endurance will be much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO certain shock methods like dropsets/supersets are only useful for hypertophy - so it would be better to leave your failure training to this type of work and put most of your non-failure training on heavier straight set work.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-18-2006, 10:10 PM
rickck48's Avatar
rickck48 rickck48 is offline
rickck48 is tryin harder!
Middleweight
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Alabama
Posts: 963
Default Re: Failure Training

Excellent question, and so far what I have read is awesome! I don't think I ever made it to complete failure, but I have been so sore that it took more time than normal to recoup! Failure to me is when you can raise a leg or arm or opther part becuase it is totally noon responsive from the reps! Just my opinion. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
__________________
rickck48-Life is one final lift to Perfection!
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches; He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for with out me ye can do nothing.

Goal: NOT there Yet, But haven't quit either!

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.