Evolution vs Religion article: What do YOU think?

[Venom]

That was a great breakdown, Joe!

[byblos]

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No problem bro! Take your time. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Ok, I'm back, read the material you suggested Joe (several times) and some others, including the rest of this thread and the answers in genesis.

By the way, this is abosuletly fantastic. I've never, never been a part of a religious discussion of any sort that didn't turn into an argument or a fight, except here. This is a testament to the level of professionalism with which this site is being administered. Thank you mods.

Again, in my limited capacity in theology and science, let me summarize what I was able to understand from reading all this material:

According to the literal translation of Genesis, the universe was created in 6 earth days. That would make evolution an impossibility. In other words, evolution and creationism cannot co-exist. That's basically the bottom line.

In other words, if you believe evolution occured it is impossible to believe in God, and vice versa, if you believe God created the universe, you cannot believe that evolution occured. It is one way or the other, no in between. That's if genesis is to be interpreted literally.

Well, my argument is this: I've read in numerous places in the material I've combed through since yesterday that to God nothing is impossible and I believe we all agree on that. If nothing is impossible to God, why couldn't God be responsible for the Big Bang? Why couldn't God's plan be to intend for nature to take its course the way it did?

But of course, there's still the matter of the literal interpretation of Genesis and the fact that the word 'day' is mentioned over 2,000 times in the Bible and it always means one earth day and no one questions that except in Genesis. Well, there's an explanation for that (why a genesis day is different than any other Bible day).

Imagine 6,000 or so years ago or even 2,000 years ago at the time of Christ, how people lived, what they were taught, and what their level of comprehention was. Now imagine telling these simple people that earth was really round, not flat. Also imagine telling them that earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun rather than the other way around. While you're at it, imagine trying to teach them the word of God by telling them that earth was really 15 billion years old and the universe is so vast that earth was but a drop of water in the sea. Do you really think anyone would have believed? Do you think anyone would have followed the word of God and the people preaching it? Not a chance.

And there lies the problem with the literal translation of the Bible. It does not allow for the possibility that evolution was the work of the creator. It does not allow for the argument that the Bible and the New Testament were written at a time when people's comprehention level would not have accepted certain truths about the universe.

I believe wholeheartdedly in the universality of the word of God as written in the Bible and the New Testament. They are the cornerstone of our religion and the basis by which we govern our lives. But I simply cannot close my eyes to other possibilities that, if proven right, they can completely negate my faith.

I truly believe evolution and creationism do not contradict but rather complete one another. If anything is possible with God, this certainly has to be one of the possibilities.

Sorry for the verbose post but my head hurts from all the reading and wanted to get this off my chest.

It's 11:30 p.m. NY time and I must go to bed (it's back day tomorrow).

To be continued ...

[Venom]

Hey, byblos

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By the way, this is abosuletly fantastic. I've never, never been a part of a religious discussion of any sort that didn't turn into an argument or a fight, except here. This is a testament to the level of professionalism with which this site is being administered. Thank you mods.

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Thank you very much. That means a lot to us. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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If nothing is impossible to God, why couldn't God be responsible for the Big Bang? Why couldn't God's plan be to intend for nature to take its course the way it did?

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As Joe stated, he could have. However, he did not.

One thing the bible says God will not do is lie.

Timotht 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

If evolution is true, then the bible is false, and if the bible is false, then what can you base your faith in?

Read this about the importance of a biblical foundation in genesis, How to use the Word of God Part VII- Apologetics

And this for a litteral interpretation of genesis, How to use the Word of God Part 3- Creation week

And great questions! I hope you find this helpful. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Adam Knowlden]

Hi byblos!

I hope I can expound upon what the others have written.

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I've read in numerous places in the material I've combed through since yesterday that to God nothing is impossible and I believe we all agree on that. If nothing is impossible to God, why couldn't God be responsible for the Big Bang? Why couldn't God's plan be to intend for nature to take its course the way it did?


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To understand why not we have to turn to God's word,

When studying we find that God is completely sovereign. He exercises supreme, permanent authority over everything in this universe.

<font color="red"> who then is able to stand before me?

11Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
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God intervenes in all of nature,

<font color="red">Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. </font>

Even animal instinct which plays into natural selection is directly from God,

<font color="blue"> 26Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?

27Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
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The God of the bible is not a "clock maker" God that just winds it up and lets nature run its course.

<font color="blue"> 14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

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<font color="#666666"> 7For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?

8There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death:
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In fact the bible says this is so obvious, that God is in total control as demonstrated through nature, that there will be no excuse that God does not have the right to judge come Judgement day,

<font color="red"> 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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<font color="blue"> 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
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<font color="green">10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, </font>

<font color="blue"> 33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
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Imagine 6,000 or so years ago or even 2,000 years ago at the time of Christ, how people lived, what they were taught, and what their level of comprehention was. Now imagine telling these simple people that earth was really round, not flat. Also imagine telling them that earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun rather than the other way around. While you're at it, imagine trying to teach them the word of God by telling them that earth was really 15 billion years old and the universe is so vast that earth was but a drop of water in the sea. Do you really think anyone would have believed? Do you think anyone would have followed the word of God and the people preaching it? Not a chance.


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The issue with that is, that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the bible to constantly pen things they did not understand.

But first I recommend reading this:

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Meaning of yôm
When Moses, under the inspiration of God, compiled the account of creation in Genesis 1, he used the Hebrew word yôm for 'day'. He combined yôm with numbers ('first day', 'second day', 'third day', etc.) and with the words 'evening and morning', and the first time he employed it he carefully defined the meaning of yôm (used in this way) as being one night/day cycle (Genesis 1:5). Thereafter, throughout the Bible, yôm used in this way always refers to a normal 24–hour day.2,3 There is thus a prima facie case that, when God used the word yôm in this way, He intended to convey that the days of creation were 24 hours long.

Let us now consider what other words God could have used, if He had wanted to convey a much longer period of time than 24 hours.

Some Hebrew ‘time’ words
There are several Hebrew words which refer to a long period of time.4 These include qedem which is the main one–word term for 'ancient' and is sometimes translated 'of old'; olam means 'everlasting' or 'eternity' and is translated 'perpetual', 'of old' or 'for ever'; dor means 'a revolution of time' or 'an age' and is sometimes translated 'generations'; tamid means 'continually' or 'for ever'; ad means 'unlimited time' or 'for ever'; orek when used with yôm is translated 'length of days'; shanah means 'a year' or 'a revolution of time' (from the change of seasons); netsach means 'for ever'. Words for a shorter time span include eth (a general term for time); and moed, meaning 'seasons' or 'festivals'. Let us consider how some of these could have been used.

1. Event of long ago
If God had wanted to tell us that the creation events took place a long time in the past, there were several ways He could have said it:

yamim (plural of yôm) alone or with 'evening and morning', would have meant 'and it was days of evening and morning'. This would have been the simplest way, and could have signified many days and so the possibility of a vast age.

qedem by itself or with 'days' would have meant 'and it was from days of old'.

olam with 'days' would also have meant 'and it was from days of old'.

So if God had intended to communicate an ancient creation to us, there were at least three constructions He could have used to tell us this. However, God chose not to use any of these.

2. A continuing event from long ago
If God had wanted to tell us that creation started in the past but continued into the future, meaning that creation took place by some sort of theistic evolution, there were several ways He could have said it:

dor used either alone or with 'days', 'days' and 'nights', or 'evening and morning', could have signified 'and it was generations of days and nights'. This would have been the best word to indicate evolution's alleged aeons, if this had been meant.

olam with the preposition le, plus 'days' or 'evening and morning' could have signified 'perpetual'; another construction le olam va-ed means 'to the age and onward' and is translated 'for ever and ever' in Exodus 15:18.

tamid with 'days', 'days' and 'nights', or 'evening' and 'morning', could have signified 'and it was the continuation of days'.

ad used either alone or with olam could have signified 'and it was for ever'.

shanah (year) could have been used figuratively for 'a long time', especially in the plural.

yôm rab literally means 'a long day' (cf. 'long season' in Joshua 24:7, or 'long time' in the New American Standard Bible). This construction could well have been used by God if He had meant us to understand that the 'days' were long periods of time.

Thus, if God had wanted us to believe that he used a long–drawn–out creative process, there were several words He could have used to tell us this. However, God chose not to use any of these.

3. Ambiguous time
If God had wanted to say that creation took place in the past, while giving no real indication of how long the process took, there were ways He could have done it:

yôm combined with 'light' and 'darkness', would have signified 'and it was a day of light and darkness'. This could be ambiguous because of the symbolic use of 'light' and 'darkness' elsewhere in the Old Testament. However, yôm with 'evening and morning', especially with a number preceding it, can never be ambiguous.

eth ('time') combined with 'day' and 'night' as in Jeremiah 33:20 and Zechariah 14:7 could have been ambiguous. Likewise eth combined with 'light' and 'darkness' (a theoretical construction). If any of these forms had been used, the length of the 'days' of creation would have been widely open for debate. However, God chose not to use any of these.

Author’s Intention
The following considerations show us what God intended us to understand:

1. The meaning of any part of the Bible must be decided in terms of the intention of the author. In the case of Genesis, the intention of its author clearly was to write a historical account. This is shown by the way in which the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul regarded Genesis—that is, they quoted it as being truth, not symbolic myth or parable.5,6 It was plainly not the author's intention to convey allegorical poetry, fantasy, or myth. And so what God, through Moses, said about creation in Genesis should not be interpreted in these terms.

Moses did, in fact, use some of the above 'long–time' words (italicized in the examples below, with root Hebrew words in square brackets), although not with reference to the days of creation. For example, in Genesis 1:14, he wrote, 'Let there be lights ... for seasons [moed]'; in Genesis 6:3, 'My spirit shall not always [olam] strive with man'; in Genesis 9:12 'for perpetual generations [olam dor]'; in Leviticus 24:2, 'to burn continually [tamid]'; in Numbers 24:20 'that he perish for ever [ad]'; in Deuteronomy 30:20, 'He is thy light and the length of thy days [yôm orek]'; in Deuteronomy 32:7, 'Remember the days of old [yôm olam]'; and so on.

Why did God not use any of these words with reference to the creation days, seeing that He used them to describe other things? Clearly it was His intention that the creation days should be regarded as being normal earth-rotation days, and it was not His intention that any longer time–frames should be inferred.

Professor James Barr, professor of Hebrew at Oxford University agrees that the words used in Genesis 1 refer to 'a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience', and he says that he knows of no professor of Hebrew at any leading university who would say otherwise.7

2. Children have no problem in understanding the meaning of Genesis. The only reason why other ideas are entertained is because people apply concepts from outside the Bible, principally from evolutionary/atheistic sources, to interpret the Bible.

3. The Bible is God's message to mankind and as such it makes authoritative statements about reality. If one removes any portion of the Bible from the realm of reality, God may still be communicating truth to us, but the reader can never be sure that he understands it as the author intended. Furthermore, if God's communication to us is outside our realm of reality, then we cannot know whether any account in the Bible means what the words actually say or whether it means something entirely different, beyond our understanding. For example, if we apply this criterion to the accounts of the resurrection of Jesus, perhaps the words could mean that Jesus did not rise from the dead physically, but in a way beyond our comprehension. When these sorts of word–games are played with the Bible, the Bible loses its authority, we lose the divine perspective on reality, and Christianity loses its life–changing power.8

4. If the 'days' really weren't ordinary days, then God could be open to the charge of having seriously misled His people for thousands of years. Commentators universally understood Genesis in a straightforward way, until attempts were made to harmonize the account with longs ages and then evolution.

Conclusion
In Genesis 1, God, through the 'pen' of Moses, is going out of His way to tell us that the 'days' of creation were literal earth–rotation days. To do this, He used the Hebrew word yôm, combined with a number and the words 'evening and morning'. If God had wanted to tell us it was an ancient creation, then there were several good ways He could have done this. If theistic evolution had been intended, then there were several constructions He could have used. If the time factor had been meant to be ambiguous, then the Hebrew language had ways of saying this. However, God chose not to use any construction which would have communicated a meaning other than a literal solar day.

The only meaning which is possible from the Hebrew words used is that the 'days' of creation were 24–hour days. God could not have communicated this meaning more clearly than He did in Genesis 1. The divine confirmation of this, if any is needed, is Exodus 20:9-11, where the same word 'days' is used throughout:

'Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, not thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'


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So first, God could have used many ways to explain to Moses how to describe the length of time it took Him to create the earth, yet God distinctly used all three Hebrew ways to describe a literal day, yom, evening plus morning, and a number associated with the day. All three ways that God can describe a literal day were used, when many other ways to describe long ages were at the disposal of the Hebrew language.

The reason is God set up the creation week to model our week, all to represent Christ,

To understand we have to turn to the 10 commandments,

<font color="red"> 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
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God directly compares the 7the day of creation to the Sabbath Day. Under the Old Covenant man worked to enter Rest, through Christ, we rest then enter work.

Could God have created the earth over billions of years? Ceratainly He could have if He wanted to, but all indications are that He did not. I believe the entire reason of this was just like the rest of creation, to represent Christ.

The concept of Christ's work is so vital that God modeled the creation of the universe after it! And put it as a direct statement in the 10 commandments! [img]/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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It does not allow for the argument that the Bible and the New Testament were written at a time when people's comprehention level would not have accepted certain truths about the universe.


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One thing is that God is infinite and greater than the finite universe, yet the writers of the bible describe Him,

even though it is clear the writers can not comprehend God, or what they are writing.

They wrote it by faith as the Holy Spirit taught them.

<font color="red"> 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.</font>

<font color="blue"> 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

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<font color="purple"> 10I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

11He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

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For example the prophets wrote about Christ, yet no one understood the prophecies.

<font color="red">25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

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<font color="green"> 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
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<font color="orange">32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
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<font color="brown"> 25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
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I truly believe evolution and creationism do not contradict but rather complete one another. If anything is possible with God, this certainly has to be one of the possibilities.

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However, I would state that God never defies His own Nature. For example God can not lie, God can not sin, God can not be anything but perfectly Holy, and perfect in all ways. In other words He can not be incomplete. So all things are possible, but God choses not to deny Himeself, or His own nature.

<font color="red"> 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
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<font color="blue"> 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
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And God choses to be bound to His own words,

This is proven by His faithfulness to His covenant, even when the others reject Him, He always keeps His Word,

So if a belief system defies His nature, it is not possible that God used that method.

God is unchanging in nature, desire, and purpose.

God is eternal and omnipresent (ubiquitous).

First, God is self-existent.

So we can not just say, "With God all things are possible" without first seeing what the bible says the range of possibities God will work in.

We see there was no way for God to administer His Grace, but through His Son, even though Christ asked Him to find another way,

<font color="red"> Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
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But I simply cannot close my eyes to other possibilities that, if proven right, they can completely negate my faith.

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<font color="brown"> 46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
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<font color="red">God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar </font>

There is nothing to worry about! God is always right, His Word is faithful. Purified seven times,

<font color="red"> Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. </font>

I hope that helps clarify where we are coming from bro.

If you want more verses I will be glad to give you some if it will help you see what we mean. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

When looking for answers to creation we must trust God over man's falliable opinions.

<font color="red">1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
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It is also important to note that this notion of evolution is not new as the bible declares, its just a resurrected religion,

<font color="blue"> 10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
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http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v...naturalism.asp

[psaturn]

That was impressive Old School !

[Venom]

Yes, that was awesome, Old School!

[byblos]

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That was impressive Old School !

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Indeed, thank you Old School, Joe & Venom.

And more reading material to go thru; oh well, there goes my weekend.

But before I delve into the articles, let me say this: I am an EXTREMELY logical and analytical person by nature (and therefore by trade, that's just who I am). I need to make sense of things and I categorically refuse the notion of not believing something is possible just because I don't understand it. I also believe that what is inexplicable is only a measure of my own shortsightedness rather than it being purely inexplicable, so I sort of tend to 'keep my options open'. There's always an explanation.

Having said that, I guess I do also recognize the fact that my arguments are partly stemming from my own insecurities. Deep down, I am absolutely TERRIFIED of the possibility that evolution is proven right. Now, although this did not happen yet with absolute certainty, there are many scientific factors to indicate it is; we simply cannot ignore them (I don't want to give any examples as I'm sure they will be immediately shot down). Well, what then? What becomes of our faith in that remote eventuality?

I know some of you will say (maybe not say but surely think) that that is a sign of weakness in my faith and it very well may be. So how do I resolve that? Well, being the analytical being that I am, the only logical way for me to eliminate that weakness is by reconciling evolution with God.

This post is getting too deep. It may have belonged in a confessional, not on an open board. Please excuse my rantings.

[Adam Knowlden]

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And more reading material to go thru; oh well, there goes my weekend.



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lol, no take your time bro.

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I am an EXTREMELY logical and analytical person by nature (and therefore by trade, that's just who I am). I need to make sense of things and I categorically refuse the notion of not believing something is possible just because I don't understand it. I also believe that what is inexplicable is only a measure of my own shortsightedness rather than it being purely inexplicable, so I sort of tend to 'keep my options open'. There's always an explanation.


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Yeah you will have to decide what you believe on your own. Our intention is just to show you what we believe is right. I hope our input has helped you think deeper about the matters, that's all we intended bro.

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Deep down, I am absolutely TERRIFIED of the possibility that evolution is proven right. Now, although this did not happen yet with absolute certainty, there are many scientific factors to indicate it is; we simply cannot ignore them (I don't want to give any examples as I'm sure they will be immediately shot down). Well, what then? What becomes of our faith in that remote eventuality?


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I understand, it takes time to shift a paradigm. I believe that there is no reason to fear because God's Word is the source of truth.

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I know some of you will say (maybe not say but surely think) that that is a sign of weakness in my faith and it very well may be. So how do I resolve that? Well, being the analytical being that I am, the only logical way for me to eliminate that weakness is by reconciling evolution with God.


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No I do not think that at all. Just keep studying the topics bro. You have an open mind.