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  #11  
Old 03-31-2003, 12:09 AM
Source 101 Source 101 is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

Good points and good info Krypto.

I also would not recommend postworkout simple carbs for someone who is obese and/or insulin resistant. I should have made that point earlier.
But I will always recommend postworkout simple carbs for an athlete who lifts hard everytime he or she hits the gym provided they are not insulin resistant.

I said.....
"Some people say that a postworkout spike halts fat burning. Personally, I think that's a bunch of horse poo.
This was somewhat incorrect because it does halt fat burning for the time being. Personally, I don't think fat burning should be the number one priority after lifting. I think stopping catobolism and cortisol asap, restoring glycogen, producing anabolic hormones and ensuring that your metabolism stays reved up takes precident over fat burning.
You burn fat with the rest of your daily meals, which are designed to control insulin. You also burn fat with cardio and timing your macros in relation to weight lifting and cardio.
Postworkout is not the time to worry about burning fat...at least for me it's not

I also said....
I gurantee that the spike will help you in dropping fat in the long run as long as you stick to your meals for the rest of the day and control blood sugar and insulin levels"

"Gurantee" might be a strong word to use because there are ALOT of other factors to cutting that were not addressed. However, the basic philosphy behind the above statement has proven true for myself and a bunch of my boyz that I have helped out. Retain muscle mass and drop fat like a mofo. It works for me and those that I have helped.




  #12  
Old 03-31-2003, 12:59 AM
Source 101 Source 101 is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

[ QUOTE ]
*********** said:
Found more...

<font color="purple">Insulin limits the use of fat as a fuel source</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

It also decreases GH and testosterone levels during weight training which is why we stick with consuming lower GI, complex carbs before lifting and keep carb intake to a minimum before we go to sleep. GH production goes off the charts after you go nighty night and a large release of insulin will just F-it all up.
Of course insulin is a whole different story after lifting heavy arse weights in terms of GH and testosterone levels [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

But I felt I needed to state my side of the case, since we have more than one person advising on diets, and I want everyone to know why I advise the way I do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your advise is awesome. It's what works for you and bodybuilding will never be a one size fits all sport
  #13  
Old 03-31-2003, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

Good points, especially these:

[ QUOTE ]
Source 101 said:
... Personally, I don't think fat burning should be the number one priority after lifting. I think stopping catobolism and cortisol asap, restoring glycogen, producing anabolic hormones and ensuring that your metabolism stays reved up takes precident over fat burning....Postworkout is not the time to worry about burning fat...at least for me it's not

[/ QUOTE ]

I take kind of a combination approach. I definitely have plenty of carbs post workout, but I try to limit the simple/sugary carbs to no more than 20 grams. It also depends on the intensity of my workouts. After a 3 hr intense speed skating practice I will sometimes eat as much as 35 grams of sugar. I generally go by how I feel, try to "read" my body so-to-speak. I can usually tell when I'm glycogen depleted and that's when I am more lenient on my ratio of simple carbs.

[ QUOTE ]
However, the basic philosphy behind the above statement has proven true for myself and a bunch of my boyz that I have helped out. Retain muscle mass and drop fat like a mofo. It works for me and those that I have helped.

[/ QUOTE ]

That in itself doesn't hold high stakes for me, mostly because I am assuming you are talking about young, ecto type males such as yourself. In which case you guys can drop the fat off easily anyway. A lot of that has to do with genetics, age, etc, and just the mere fact that you guys are MALE. Seems like for we women, it is much more difficult to lose fat (and especially for older women) for the same reason you males can gain muscle easier, HORMONES. The extra estrogen we carry makes it more difficult for us to lose fat. So some of my advice I base on that as well, since I mostly advise other women.

But, I DO agree that the more muscle you can keep from being catabolized, obviously the more calories you will be burning, equating to more fat being burned. And this is EXACTLY why I am so adament (sp?) about the gals NOT dropping their calories to lose fat, at least not in the BEGINNING (and especially since most of them are consuming too low of cals anyway). I am all FOR saving that muscle! Also, since many of them ARE taking in too few calories and are SCARED TO DEATH of gaining weight when I tell them to INCREASE the cals, I figure that just by them increasing their calories as they're lifting will be enough to both kick up their metabolisms AND cause some muscle mass GAIN while simultaneously losing fat, hence, another reason I don't push the post workout insulin spike. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

If anything, we will at least have educated everyone on BOTH sides and then they can read the reasonings on BOTH and have enough info to decide for themselves which to try first. Heck, try both, it's the only way to really find out. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
  #14  
Old 03-31-2003, 08:51 AM
lifterchick lifterchick is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

Krypto,

I've been giving a lot of thought to your arguments for complex rather than simple carbs post workout, and I think they make a lot of sense- especially since I fall into your category of approaching middle age and having a hard time with fat loss.

My only hesitancy is that post wotkout I usually feel a bit shaky- like my glycogen stores are absolutely at rock bottom- so I like that the simple carbs seem to take care of this feeling right away. Do you notice that complex carbs take longer to right this situation or do you think given the shakiness I should stick with simple carbs?

Thanks Krypto and Source for taking the time to do all this research for us. This is a very fascinating debate!
  #15  
Old 03-31-2003, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

[ QUOTE ]
*********** said:
And also, believing that I myself am also at least somewhat insulin resistant, is why I also do not do the post workout insulin spike.

[/ QUOTE ]


first my question: how do you know if your insulin resistant?

ok onto the rest! wow krypto and source - good points. i still don't know whether to do a post workout insulin spike... it seems that when i do put some dextrose in my post workout shake my calories and carb consumption goes over what i want it to for the day and when i look at my fitday journal it just bugs me to see the numbers higher than i need [img]/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] also, i do not physically notice a big difference when i do take dextrose as opposed to when i do not, so this jury is still out!
  #16  
Old 03-31-2003, 12:41 PM
Braidyn Braidyn is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

Briadyn again,

Holy Cow, this is clearly some really "heavy" stuff, obviously not a "yes" or "no" question, but I am really intrigued by all this information. Though I must admit, I will need to read over it a few times in order to get it.

My current question is in regards to post workout carbs.
Right now, I am working on trying to gain some more muscle mass, but am certainly not apposed to burning fat. What is a good way for a person to tell if they should be taking some carbs post workout? Should I simply go by how my body feels? Source suggested taking some form of liquid carb postworkout. Krypto, what do you suggest for someone following a weight lifting workout? Would you advocate for just a protein shake? This is generally what I've always done, but I am now very concerned that any gains I made during my workout are being eatin up by cortisol. Is consuming carbs postworkout the only way to avoid this happening?

Thanks for all the advice Krypto and Source, I really appreciate the opportunity to pick your brains! Thanks for being such willingly helpful people!
Braidyn
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2003, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

[ QUOTE ]
lifterchick said:
My only hesitancy is that post wotkout I usually feel a bit shaky- like my glycogen stores are absolutely at rock bottom- so I like that the simple carbs seem to take care of this feeling right away. Do you notice that complex carbs take longer to right this situation or do you think given the shakiness I should stick with simple carbs?

[/ QUOTE ]

ARRGGGHHHH! I HATE it when I do that!!! I'll be typing along and accidently hit a wrong key and before I know it, my computer is going to another internet page and I lose everything I typed!!!!! ARRRGGHHHH!!! I don't know what darn keys I'm hitting by accident! [img]/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

<font color="green">Anyway, as I was saying, I found that when I get in that state, eating ANYTHING seems to work. For example, I've gotten that way during speed skating practices before and I'll eat whatever I have available, sometimes it's an apple, sometimes a granola bar, sometimes a Bio Protein bar with its 26 grams of sugar. I just make sure it's some form of carbohydrates without the fat or at least very little fat. Both simple and fiberous/complex carbs seem to work for me. I would suggest to you to try both. And then if even eating the complex carbs seems to work, then eating a sugary carb in not necessary IMO, especially if you are trying to burn fat.

I think that eating something sugary is just setting yourself up for those blood sugar highs and lows myself. If you are already prone to hypoglycemia, generally the thing NOT to do is eat sugary foods as this will just perpetuate the problem.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
soccerchick said:
first my question: how do you know if your insulin resistant?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">Because I have a tendency to be hypoglycemic and it runs in my family, hypoglycemia and diabetes. And from my readings, insulin resistance as well as hypoglycemia can be a precursor to diabetes.

See here:</font>

<font color="purple">First There’s "Low Blood" Sugar
As I mentioned earlier, your blood glucose powers most of what your body does, as well as fuels your brain. Anytime you’re feeling good, you can take it as given that your body is working off of optimal quantities of glucose (or ketone bodies, if you’re in ketosis).
Hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar) is not a good thing, but what is hypoglycaemia? The word itself is Greek, derived from hypo meaning ‘under,’ glykis meaning ‘sweet,’ and aemia meaning ‘in the blood.’ Too little sugar in the blood. That sounds clear, but what it demonstrates is that the word hypoglycaemia is actually a misnomer.
Stick with this literal translation, and you will assume it’s the opposite of diabetes, which you probably remember involves too much sugar in the blood. You may have heard it said of a diabetic that he’s "spilling sugar in his urine." That is indeed the product of excess – and yet the fact is that, far from being opposites, hypoglycaemia and diabetes are actually successive stages of the same disease.
The proper term for describing the hypoglycaemic’s real problem is "unstable blood sugar," for it is the overreaction of the glucose mechanism (going up too high and then dropping too far and too fast) that explains the hypoglycaemic’s problems.
One of the most intriguing evidences for the hypoglycaemia-diabetes connection was found by scientists in the 1960s.2 These researchers studied the offspring of two diabetic parents – people who were almost by definition, pre-diabetic. They found a classic series of abnormalities in these patients. First came hypoglycaemia – a sharp drop on the glucose tolerance curve I showed you in Chapter 4. Years would pass. Then these subjects, still hypoglycaemic, showed elevations of their blood sugar readings within an hour after glucose was administered.
These elevations lasted 2 hours, then 3 hours. Finally, the very high blood sugar readings of early diabetes occurred throughout the test and throughout the day.
What happened was this: In the early stages, these individuals, genetically sensitive to any abnormalities of blood glucose, were reacting to the high levels of serum glucose that their diet produced by manufacturing large quantities of insulin and forcing the glucose down. This led to the typical hypoglycaemic curve in which blood sugar rises fairly quickly after eating and then falls in the third, fourth, or fifth hour to an unpleasantly low level. It’s this fall, too rapid and to somewhat too low a level that constitutes hypoglycaemia, rather than a low level of blood sugar, per se. I make this point because critics of hypoglycaemia have attempted to obfuscate the issue by suggesting that something called low blood sugar is really very rare. As a permanent state of affairs of course, it is. It’s a response to glucose rather than a constant deficiency such as you have when your potassium or iron levels are too low.
This early stage is typical of people with insulin resistance – the very people who tend to become fat. People of normal insulin sensitivity tend to stay thin, because just a touch of the "fat producing hormone" is enough to lower their blood glucose to a normal level and more insulin need not be released.
If you’re insulin resistant – and you probably are, if you’re reading this book to lose weight – then your body at some fairly early stage in your life lost the capacity to respond quickly to insulin. It ‘resisted’ the insulin, and so the pancreas had to secrete more. The metabolic dynamics of glucose and insulin are thrown awry by this abnormal effort, and the body generally loses its capacity for fine tuning in this essential area. Consequently too much insulin is secreted, and the blood-glucose level is temporarily knocked down to an undesirably low level. The unpleasant symptoms I mentioned at the outset of this chapter are either caused by the fact that the glucose level is too low to supply the brain’s needs, or by the adrenalin-like activity initiated to counter-regulate the precipitously falling sugar level.
This is a first step in an unhealthy metabolic path. Eventually, the body can absolutely lose its capacity to produce insulin in the quantities required or its capacity to employ the insulin that’s being produced, so that high blood sugar levels result, and the early stages of diabetes are reached.
Lifelong students of diabetes have suggested that the potential for the disease exists in 20% of the population.3 Keep in mind that most of that 20% is found among the overweight, since, when the final tally is made, 80% of all diabetics are obese. Some studies have suggested that, if you’re significantly overweight, your chances of becoming diabetic will be one in two.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
Braidyn said:
... What is a good way for a person to tell if they should be taking some carbs post workout?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="green">I think you have misunderstood, nobody said DON'T eat carbs after workouts, the debate at hand is whether or not to ingest SIMPLE or COMPLEX carbs after a workout. I never said don't eat carbs after workouts. I said I generally didn't believe in eating SUGARY carbs after workouts.

I tend to eat a combination. For example I may eat a granola bar that has 16 grams of sugar in it along with a sweet potato but I never just take sugar with a post workout protein shake. I may have some simple carbs, but I always do so along with a complex carb as well. I do this for reasons stated above by me or by the articles I posted (after having done my research).

You SHOULD be eating carbs post workout, your muscles NEED it, they need to replenish their glycogen stores.</font>
  #18  
Old 03-31-2003, 07:30 PM
Source 101 Source 101 is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

[ QUOTE ]
*********** said:
[ QUOTE ]
Source 101 said:
[ QUOTE ]
However, the basic philosphy behind the above statement has proven true for myself and a bunch of my boyz that I have helped out. Retain muscle mass and drop fat like a mofo. It works for me and those that I have helped.

[/ QUOTE ]

That in itself doesn't hold high stakes for me, mostly because I am assuming you are talking about young, ecto type males such as yourself. In which case you guys can drop the fat off easily anyway. A lot of that has to do with genetics, age, etc, and just the mere fact that you guys are MALE. Seems like for we women, it is much more difficult to lose fat (and especially for older women) for the same reason you males can gain muscle easier, HORMONES. The extra estrogen we carry makes it more difficult for us to lose fat. So some of my advice I base on that as well, since I mostly advise other women.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good points and very true Krypto.
Obviously I give advice from a male point of view due to the fact that,
ummmm..........I'm a guy [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Although we are all human(at least most of us are), [img]/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
men and woman differ in many ways including the factors that you mentioned in the above statements.
All your points are vaild. You are obviously better suited to give advice to woman because you are a female and have been in this game a long time.

Maybe that's what this forum is described as....
"Where women can talk one on one with other women..."
and not described as....
"Where ignorant men like Source try to give advice to woman..." [img]/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

One thing is a given.
Postworkout carbs are a must after intense weight training.
The amounts and the type of carbs depend on alot of factors.
You have to become a mad scientist, experiment and keep journals to see what works for you in terms of dieting and training.
Like Braidyn said, there is rarely a simple "yes or no" answer.
  #19  
Old 03-31-2003, 07:38 PM
Braidyn Braidyn is offline
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

Hey again guys,
Once again, I want to thank every one for being so helpful and available, it really is great to be starting out and having a place to get some answers and advice from people who clearly know what they're talking about!

I'm just wondering what makes something a complex carb, and what makes something a simple carb? Is it simply to do with how much time they take to be digested? Would somebody mind giving my examples of each?? I think it would help me understand.
Thanks in advance, Braidyn
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2003, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Am I Healthy, or am I Not? They told me once, but I forgot?......

[ QUOTE ]
Source 101 said:
Maybe that's what this forum is described as....
"Where women can talk one on one with other women..."
and not described as....
"Where ignorant men like Source try to give advice to woman..." [img]/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]



Hey, but don't STOP trying to help out!! Believe me, I can certainly use the help! There are bound to be things that are debateable, and it benefits EVERYONE to have a civil debate, it promotes learning! And there are some things you are going to be more well versed at than I am. For example, I've been known to ask OldSchool for help on some training issues. After all, my own BPB was the one who got me into this, he is the one who taught ME how to lift! Everyone has their area of expertise. So I certainly didn't mean to scare you off! Not my intent at all, my intent is simply to educate and BE educated. It's things like this that will keep me on my toes! So I hope this doesn't mean you're going to go away!!

[ QUOTE ]
One thing is a given.
Postworkout carbs are a must after intense weight training.
The amounts and the type of carbs depend on alot of factors.
You have to become a mad scientist, experiment and keep journals to see what works for you in terms of dieting and training.
Like Braidyn said, there is rarely a simple "yes or no" answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. EXACTLY. You are your own experiment. I am simply here to steer those in need in the right direction (and get them thinking), as well as give GENERAL guidelines for proper training and nutrition.
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