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  #21  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:44 AM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
I never said bad technique does not happen with singles. I'm saying bad technique gets worse with touch and go reps.

Not Necessarily

You are making an assumption, a guess. Guessing means that you don't know.

Bad Technique

Part of poor technique involves fatigue. Once fatigue sets in be it in singles or reps, STOP the movement.


As I've noted, continuing to perform a movement singles or reps reinforce poor technique.

Other fact are involved in preforming a movement with poor technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
With singles, each rep becomes its own. You set up solely for that attempt and if you do something wrong, you are able to try and correct it on your next attempt. I bring my iPod to the gym all the time, so I'll film my first single and watch it before I attempt my second. That way I can adjust based on any mistakes I'm making. Plus singles give you more chances to practice set up which a beginner needs. Instead of doing 3 sets of 5 you can now do 5-10 sets of singles and get more chances at a perfect set up and a perfect attempt.
Singles

Singles are an effective method of performing a movement correctly in an event such as powerlifting where a 1RM is the objective.

Near Maximum Singles

The most effective method of insuring proper technique is in performing singles with near maximum 1RM percentages.

The reason for that is the muscle firing sequence is different with 70% vs 100% of 1RM.

Thus, training singles close to 1RM provide a better training effect for technique.

Singles More of A Chance of Perfection

As Vince Lombardi said, "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

That meaning that singles do not assure you of performing a perfect set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Once again, I never said singles should not be attempted with squats and bench press. They should and I definitely do it, especially with paused bench leading up to a meet.
Paused Bench Press Training

Most individuals Paused Bench Press Training is not optimally trained for meets. Too many individuals allow the bar to sit on the chest in training too long.

Paused Touch And Go

The focus on competition bench press training need to be to minimize the amount of time the bar is statically on the chest.

A good competition bench press training program works on timing the pause to the "Press Signal".

Great benchers preform more of a "Paused Touch and Go". The learn to anticipate "Press Signal" on second, third and any fourth attempt they might take.

Stretch Reflex

Research shows that 50% of the stretch reflex is lost in one second. In four seconds the stretch reflex is completely gone.

Thus, the less time the bar remains on your chest the more of the stretch reflex you and elicit in driving the bar off the chest.

Touch and Go Bench Press

The stretch reflex is trained with Touch and Go Benching. It is a vital part of a good bench press program.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
What I am saying is that singles for deadlift are even more important than squats or bench because it better mimics a 1RM because you don't start with the negative phase in the deadlift. With touch and go reps the saying is, "if you can do it for a single, you can do it for a triple." This is because the next reps will become easier because you are using the stretch reflex, you are bouncing off the ground and using momentum, and with the bar bending you are shortening the distance of the successive reps.
Mimic The Lift

Yes, training the deadlift with singles does mimic meet conditions.

The Stretch Reflex

Yes, bouncing the weight does elicit the stretch reflex. Training the stretch reflex in that way allows you to develop the stretch reflex and develop power.

My last post went over power.

Some of the stretch reflex deadlift "Touch and Go" training does carry over to the deadlift, providing you elicit the response before the pulls.

The Bar Bending

The bar bending shortening the distance of your pull. It does NOT bend that much, hoperbolic statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
But I'm sure most coaches would recommend rack pulls over touch and go reps for a lockout weakness because it is more specific to what your goal is and, once again, does not interfere with the regular deadlift motor patterns
Most Coaches

Where is the data that support the statement of that "Most coaches recommend rack pulls"?

That is a guess on your part.

Variable Resistance Deadlift Training

A more effective method would be to use/attaches bands and/or chains when performing deadlifts.

That because the Deadlift has an "Ascending Strength Curve". Thus, the bands and/or chains would allow you to perform a "Regular Deadlift" and overload the movement at the stronger part of the movement.

Touch And Go Deadlifts

Touch and Go Deadlifts allow you overload the upper end of the Ascending Deadlift Strength Curve in a similar way that bands and/or chain do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
EDIT:
Also, I have no proof to back this claim up but I don't think touch and go reps are as safe. When I see people banging the bar off the ground I think, "where is that force going?" Well I would think first it pounds into your wrist, which can't be good, then travels up your arms and into your spine which can't be good either.
No Proof

That is because there is no proof.

Where is the Force Going?

The majority of the force is going into the floor.

Spine Loading

The squat causes more spinal loading than Deadlifting or Touch and Go Deadlifts.

The amount of spine loading that occurs with Box Squats is off the grid.

So, the take home message is if you have any concerns with spine loading...Don't Squat!

Dr Fred Hatfield

Hatfield adovcates Touch and Go Deadlift Training in his book, Power: A Scientific Approach, a great strength training book.

Hatfield was one of the lightest men to squat over 1,000 lbs (1014 lb @252 lbs). Hatfield is also renound for his expertise on strength training.

Charles Staley (Strength Coach)

Staley has found Stiff Leg (Slight Knee Bend) is a very effective method of training the hamstrings. Staley has an online article on it.

My Experience

As someone who trained for decades with Touch and Go Deadlifts, I can assure you are no more unsafe than singles when performed correctly.

"I think..."

The information you have is based on your conclusion rather than experience.

The only way to know if something works or doesn't is practical experience, you've go to try it.

It Doesn't Work

The reason many things don't work is that individuals write and/or perform the program incorrectly.

As the saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out".

Kenny Croxdale
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:04 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Not Necessarily

You are making an assumption, a guess. Guessing means that you don't know.

Bad Technique

Part of poor technique involves fatigue. Once fatigue sets in be it in singles or reps, STOP the movement.


Singles

Singles are an effective method of performing a movement correctly in an event such as powerlifting where a 1RM is the objective.

Near Maximum Singles

The most effective method of insuring proper technique is in performing singles with near maximum 1RM percentages.

The reason for that is the muscle firing sequence is different with 70% vs 100% of 1RM.

Thus, training singles close to 1RM provide a better training effect for technique.

Singles More of A Chance of Perfection

As Vince Lombardi said, "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect."

That meaning that singles do not assure you of performing a perfect set.


Paused Bench Press Training

Most individuals Paused Bench Press Training is not optimally trained for meets. Too many individuals allow the bar to sit on the chest in training too long.

Paused Touch And Go

The focus on competition bench press training need to be to minimize the amount of time the bar is statically on the chest.

A good competition bench press training program works on timing the pause to the "Press Signal".

Great benchers preform more of a "Paused Touch and Go". The learn to anticipate "Press Signal" on second, third and any fourth attempt they might take.

Stretch Reflex

Research shows that 50% of the stretch reflex is lost in one second. In four seconds the stretch reflex is completely gone.

Thus, the less time the bar remains on your chest the more of the stretch reflex you and elicit in driving the bar off the chest.

Touch and Go Bench Press

The stretch reflex is trained with Touch and Go Benching. It is a vital part of a good bench press program.




Mimic The Lift

Yes, training the deadlift with singles does mimic meet conditions.

The Stretch Reflex

Yes, bouncing the weight does elicit the stretch reflex. Training the stretch reflex in that way allows you to develop the stretch reflex and develop power.

My last post went over power.

Some of the stretch reflex deadlift "Touch and Go" training does carry over to the deadlift, providing you elicit the response before the pulls.

The Bar Bending

The bar bending shortening the distance of your pull. It does NOT bend that much, hoperbolic statement.



Most Coaches

Where is the data that support the statement of that "Most coaches recommend rack pulls"?

That is a guess on your part.

Variable Resistance Deadlift Training

A more effective method would be to use/attaches bands and/or chains when performing deadlifts.

That because the Deadlift has an "Ascending Strength Curve". Thus, the bands and/or chains would allow you to perform a "Regular Deadlift" and overload the movement at the stronger part of the movement.

Touch And Go Deadlifts

Touch and Go Deadlifts allow you overload the upper end of the Ascending Deadlift Strength Curve in a similar way that bands and/or chain do.




No Proof

That is because there is no proof.

Where is the Force Going?

The majority of the force is going into the floor.

Spine Loading

The squat causes more spinal loading than Deadlifting or Touch and Go Deadlifts.

The amount of spine loading that occurs with Box Squats is off the grid.

So, the take home message is if you have any concerns with spine loading...Don't Squat!

Dr Fred Hatfield

Hatfield adovcates Touch and Go Deadlift Training in his book, Power: A Scientific Approach, a great strength training book.

Hatfield was one of the lightest men to squat over 1,000 lbs (1014 lb @252 lbs). Hatfield is also renound for his expertise on strength training.

Charles Staley (Strength Coach)

Staley has found Stiff Leg (Slight Knee Bend) is a very effective method of training the hamstrings. Staley has an online article on it.

My Experience

As someone who trained for decades with Touch and Go Deadlifts, I can assure you are no more unsafe than singles when performed correctly.

"I think..."

The information you have is based on your conclusion rather than experience.

The only way to know if something works or doesn't is practical experience, you've go to try it.

It Doesn't Work

The reason many things don't work is that individuals write and/or perform the program incorrectly.

As the saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out".

Kenny Croxdale
Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading and listening to what I say. Or if you are some kind of semi troll that likes posting pretty section names or something...
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Squat: 463 Bench: 275 Deadlift: 529 Total: 1262

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  #23  
Old 11-10-2012, 05:39 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading and listening to what I say.
Interesting

I wonder the same about you because I keep having to go back over the same information.

Rather than go back over things, again. You might try reading and absorbing some of the information posted.

"I think..."

Your postings tell me you are guessing about things. You haven't use or tried them. All you done is think can come up with your conjectures.

Thinking is a start. You just need to follow it up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Or if you are some kind of semi troll that likes posting pretty section names or something...
Pretty Sections

They are both pretty and functional. They allow you do identify the topic cover it in an economy of words.

Reserach Resources

I have provided you with research information from two PhD who were also power lifter and another strength coach. They provide you with more than "I think..." conjectures.

Read. Implement. Learn.

Kenny Croxdale
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Last edited by Kenny Croxda; 11-10-2012 at 05:44 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2012, 06:27 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
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Lets see:

I say singles for deadlifts are important (because the subject of this thread is on deadlifts)
You post a bunch of information about singles are important for every lift (and go off topic)
I say I never said it wasn't important for other lifts and agree with you.
You post a bunch of information about singles are important for every lift.
I agree with you again.
You post a bunch of information about singles are important for every lift.

Yea, I'm the one not absorbing the message.

Okay, show me your thoughts being applied:

1) Post a video of you deadlifting for a single at 80+%
2) Post a video of you deadlifting for reps.

This way I can see how your form looks in both.
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  #25  
Old 11-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Yea, I'm the one not absorbing the message.

Okay, show me your thoughts being applied:

1) Post a video of you deadlifting for a single at 80+%
2) Post a video of you deadlifting for reps.

This way I can see how your form looks in both.
Singles X 80%

No one should have a problem with performing a single with good technique at 80% of their 1RM, unless their lower back is overtrained.

Thus, I don't see the point in examining a video of someone performing a 80%of 1RM Deadlift.

Deadlift For Reps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf6H8yZEozw

Derek Poundstone does a nice job for the first 6 reps on this deadlift.

Again, once technique falls apart, STOP. Poundstone SHOULD have stopped at rep 6.

Benedikt Magnússon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DchUE6Wy67s

Benedikt Magnússon's best pull is 1015 lbs. This video demonstrates him bouncing 880 lbs X 5 reps in the deadlift with room to spare.

Magnússon uses good technique with all his reps. Magnússon stops before his technique break down, unlike Poundstone.

The Bounce

Poundstone and Magnússon get a nice bounce off the floor. This does two things.

1) Trains Power. The revelance of power is generating enough speed to slide through the sticking point.

For a Conventional Deadlifter, that sticking point is traditionally in the knee area.

2) Overload the Top End.

Since Conventional Deadlifters usually stall at the top end, they do not get as much overload training at the top end.

Thus, "Bounce Deadlifts" (Touch and Go) allow you to overload the top end.

Reverse Band Deadlift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McfjZ-ae6xk

Dr Layne Norton (PhD in Nutrition, Bodybuilder and Powerlifter) who's articles you be found on this site, demonstrates Reverse Band Deadlifts in the video above. Norton's best pull is 695 lbs.

Peforming Deadlifts with Bands allows you to:

1) Overload the Top End.

The Conventional Deadlift (Sumo, as well) has an "Ascending Strength Curve". The bump in the road (Sticking Point) is the knee area.

One of the objectives with Conventional Deadlifter is to learn to generate enough power to "Slide through this mudhole" knee area.

Specific Power Movement Exercise (Bounce Deadlifts) allow you to train this. Other exercise are effective in developing power, as well. A different topic for another time.

2) Maintain Technique.

Reverse Band Deadlifts allows you to gradually overload the muscles involved throughout the movement. Thus, maintaining good technique is easier to do compared to Rack Deadlifts.

Something else Norton displays in is deadlift is a...

Minor Stretch Reflex

Norton elicits a minor stretch reflex in breaking the weight off the floor. Norton does this by pumping his legs prior to initiating the drive off the floor.

Poundstone and Magnússon also "Drop before the Drive" out of the hole.

This allows them to produce a little more power in coming off the floor.

Deadlift Singles

Performing Deadlifts for singles is an effective method of developing technique and increasing strength.

However, to maximize the Deadlift, other axuiliary movements to increase strength and power need to be employed along the way. The "Bounce Deadlift" is one such movement.

Kenny Croxdale
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  #26  
Old 11-11-2012, 03:10 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
arian11 is 500 deadlift achieved, time for a 500 squat!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Singles X 80%

No one should have a problem with performing a single with good technique at 80% of their 1RM, unless their lower back is overtrained.

Thus, I don't see the point in examining a video of someone performing a 80%of 1RM Deadlift.

Deadlift For Reps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf6H8yZEozw

Derek Poundstone does a nice job for the first 6 reps on this deadlift.

Again, once technique falls apart, STOP. Poundstone SHOULD have stopped at rep 6.

Benedikt Magnússon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DchUE6Wy67s

Benedikt Magnússon's best pull is 1015 lbs. This video demonstrates him bouncing 880 lbs X 5 reps in the deadlift with room to spare.

Magnússon uses good technique with all his reps. Magnússon stops before his technique break down, unlike Poundstone.

The Bounce

Poundstone and Magnússon get a nice bounce off the floor. This does two things.

1) Trains Power. The revelance of power is generating enough speed to slide through the sticking point.

For a Conventional Deadlifter, that sticking point is traditionally in the knee area.

2) Overload the Top End.

Since Conventional Deadlifters usually stall at the top end, they do not get as much overload training at the top end.

Thus, "Bounce Deadlifts" (Touch and Go) allow you to overload the top end.

Reverse Band Deadlift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McfjZ-ae6xk

Dr Layne Norton (PhD in Nutrition, Bodybuilder and Powerlifter) who's articles you be found on this site, demonstrates Reverse Band Deadlifts in the video above. Norton's best pull is 695 lbs.

Peforming Deadlifts with Bands allows you to:

1) Overload the Top End.

The Conventional Deadlift (Sumo, as well) has an "Ascending Strength Curve". The bump in the road (Sticking Point) is the knee area.

One of the objectives with Conventional Deadlifter is to learn to generate enough power to "Slide through this mudhole" knee area.

Specific Power Movement Exercise (Bounce Deadlifts) allow you to train this. Other exercise are effective in developing power, as well. A different topic for another time.

2) Maintain Technique.

Reverse Band Deadlifts allows you to gradually overload the muscles involved throughout the movement. Thus, maintaining good technique is easier to do compared to Rack Deadlifts.

Something else Norton displays in is deadlift is a...

Minor Stretch Reflex

Norton elicits a minor stretch reflex in breaking the weight off the floor. Norton does this by pumping his legs prior to initiating the drive off the floor.

Poundstone and Magnússon also "Drop before the Drive" out of the hole.

This allows them to produce a little more power in coming off the floor.

Deadlift Singles

Performing Deadlifts for singles is an effective method of developing technique and increasing strength.

However, to maximize the Deadlift, other axuiliary movements to increase strength and power need to be employed along the way. The "Bounce Deadlift" is one such movement.

Kenny Croxdale
Lol that is why I said 80+% which means it can be anything above 80%. I was just giving you the leeway because I knew if I said your true 1RM you would make some excuse as to why you didn't have a video of your max. But, of course, you didn't read or listen at all and just took my words out of context to your advantage so you wouldn't post any videos of your lifts.

And its funny that you post videos of Dr. Norton because he doesn't bounce off the ground and I know for a FACT that he is doing singles for deadlifts right now. How? Because the same person who is writing programs for him, Dr. Zourdos, writes programs for me. The same one that I posted in this thread earlier. The same one that has Dr. Norton squatting and benching like 4x a week and deadlifting for singles 3x a week.

You are a joke. I'm sure you won't even listen to this post either. You remind me of another poster that use to post here, Charles Izzo. You should go look up some of his posts, you two are very similar. He was the reason why alot of the smart scientists left this site. I hope you don't do the same, though there really isn't anyone left here for you to scare away with your bs.
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  #27  
Old 11-11-2012, 05:51 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
I knew if I said your true 1RM you would make some excuse as to why you didn't have a video of your max. But, of course, you didn't read or listen at all and just took my words out of context to your advantage so you wouldn't post any videos of your lifts.
My Past Deadlift Training

I at one time trained my deadlift with "Bounce Deadlifts".

Using that method my best pull was 575 lbs at 181 lbs.

You best pull at the same weight is 501 lbs.

My Present Deadlift Training

My Deadlift training now does not involve any Deadlifts.

Bill Starr

My trainng revolves around...

1) Heavy Partial Good Mornings as a means of increasing strength.

2) Hang Power Cleans to develop power.

Bill Starr promoted this method decade ago.

Another powerlifter, Loren Betzer applied this method a bit differently.

Louie Simmons' utilizes Good Mornings and quotes from Starr, at times.

The "No Deadlift, Deadlift Program
http://www.liftinglarge.com/The-No-D...m_ep_51-1.html

The foundation of my training and the above article is based empirical data and research from Starr, Betzer, Simmons and Dr Tom McLaughlin, Dr John Garhammer and Dr Fred Hatfields.

617 lb Deadlift

My best Deadlift is 617 lbs at 210 lbs. I did NO deadlifts prior to the meet.

My 617 lb Deadlift is a State Record in my Weight Class/Age Group.

My 562 lb squat and 375 lb bench press is, as well.

My records are posted online. So, feel free to google them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
And its funny that you post videos of Dr. Norton because he doesn't bounce off the ground and I know for a FACT that he is doing singles for deadlifts right now.
Revese Band Loading

The point of the Norton Deadlift video was to demonstrate a more effective method of overloading the top part of the deadlift WITHOUT performing Rack Deadlift, as you suggested.

Poundstone and Magnússon

I find it interesting that I posted vidoe of two great deadlifters performing "Bounce Deadlifts" and you failed to respond.

That definitely say something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
How? Because the same person who is writing programs for him, Dr. Zourdos, writes programs for me.
Causation Does NOT IMPLY Corrolation

In plain English, that means that just because Norton's training may resemble some aspects of Zourdos', I doubt that Zourdos's write Norton's program.

I am sure Zourdos does influence Norton's training to some extent.

However, Norton knows enough to write his own.

New Training Methods

When new training method/ideas are presented to individuals, the initial response is met with skepticism.

The skepticiam comes from a lack of knowledge.

Skepticism

New methods/ideas should be scrutinized with great care. That means you need to examine them in more depth, especially when they have produced results for others.

Doing so, will take you much further down the road.

We be done.

We have exhausted this topic.

I have provided you with information. What you decided to do with it is up to you.

Good luck with your lifting.

Kenny Croxdale
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  #28  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:43 AM
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wow .... just 'WOW'....

so i was away over the weekend and i come back to find...this???

i can't help but agree with arian11, your (Kenny Croxda) writing style is quite unique... reading your posts i feel as if you are an auto-bot or something... you know that thing which responds when we call some body and they are not there to answer .... lol... i am sorry... i just had to spill this out. i had been holding on to this ever since ur 2nd post in the same manner.

by the way where's Charles Izzo...his posts were very typical.... 'looooong'

for starters i think we should all put up our pics (at least in avatar) so readers should have a better idea of the person behind key board.
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  #29  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
It Doesn't Work

The reason many things don't work is that individuals write and/or perform the program incorrectly.

As the saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out".

Kenny Croxdale
Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Sometimes I wonder if you are even reading and listening to what I say. Or if you are some kind of semi troll that likes posting pretty section names or something...
Arian was having a respectful conversation with you Mr. Croxdale. And as another observer of the conversation, it was you who appeared not to be reading what he wrote. Your responses appeared disjointed and your comment I quoted above is close to offensive.

If you go back to his first posts here, you see Arian was eager to learn and apply what he learned. Further, he followed programs based on science created by Dr. Zourdos. As a friend of Dr. Zourdos, I can tell you he is not interested in any garbage. He is interested in making his programs as efficient as possible.

Arian is a great success story on this site, taking his maxes from measly to respectable in a very short time. He also went from someone who had to ask many questions to someone who gives back and tries to help others.

You were really hard on Arian for using the term "I think." However, it is not a fault to admit when something is your opinion. Some of your comments were anecdotal, yet you stated them as if it were set in stone.

Finally, you may be stronger than Arian, but that doesn't make you any more correct when you state a point. And if Arian were stronger, it wouldn't make him any more correct either. Facts are facts regardless of who is stronger. You definitely appeared be rubbing that in and using your strength to back up your points when strength has many factors; training experience, age, non-weightlifting injuries, family factors, life stress, etc.

I hope if you continue to post here you take this to heart.
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  #30  
Old 11-21-2012, 09:20 PM
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Who cares if the deadlift effects your bench. The bench is the most overrated lift on the planet. The deadlift will do more for overall strength and growth then the bench ever will.

I have actually had some of my best benches a day after deadlifting but if you think that is a problem then give yourself adequate rest between the two of them.
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