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  #11  
Old 11-08-2012, 03:15 AM
arian11 arian11 is offline
arian11 is 500 deadlift achieved, time for a 500 squat!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
That a good point.



Distribute and Build Up Volume

It hard to comment on something that isn't well defined. Please provide more information on that.

Kenny Croxdale
Monday
Squat 5s @ 80%
Deadlift 1s @ 70%

Tuesday
Bench 5s @ 77.5%
Military 5s @ 9RPE

Wednesday
Squat 3s @ 85%
Deadlift 1s @ 80%

Thursday
Bench 3s @ 82.5%
Military 3s @ 9RPE

Friday
Squat 2s @ 90%, last set is max reps
Deadlift 1s @ 90%

Saturday
Bench 2s @ 87.5%, last set is max reps
Paused Bench Single @ 9RPE

Too much to type everything out but that is how week 1 looked like and basically just added 10 lbs week 2 and 5 lbs week 3. So Friday effectively turned into squat 90+% for doubles and then hitting 5-6 reps on the max reps set, and then pulling singles at 90+%. Then sometimes I threw in a back exercise in afterwards like pullups or rows or lat pull downs.

Though it is kind of irrelevant what my programming was, what I was merely trying to point out is that it could be something much more simple. Usually when people get hurt or regress in weights it is because of bad form, bad warm ups, bad programming or a combination of them all.
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2012, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
Monday
Squat 5s @ 80%
Deadlift 1s @ 70%

Tuesday
Bench 5s @ 77.5%
Military 5s @ 9RPE

Wednesday
Squat 3s @ 85%
Deadlift 1s @ 80%

Thursday
Bench 3s @ 82.5%
Military 3s @ 9RPE

Friday
Squat 2s @ 90%, last set is max reps
Deadlift 1s @ 90%

Saturday
Bench 2s @ 87.5%, last set is max reps
Paused Bench Single @ 9RPE
was it just this program that took your deadlift to 500lbs? though it seams a solid routine but deadlift volume is not more then 1 set a day / 3 sets a week?

or did i interpret the whole thing wrong.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
[color="navy"]Recovery TimeYou appear to respond to more frequent sessions. The majority of individuals don't.
True that. but one major reason for that is not managing the workout volume (# of sets & # of exercises) accordingly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Exception

Individuals like you may be able to handle it.
yup exceptions are always there. But what do you mean by individuals like ME? i am all natural and blv me at times suck big time with diet (diff topic) too.

All i do in gym is manage the volume the way the body can handle & allow me to do deadlifts twice in one week & one time the next... and i repeat this way for good 8-10 weeks before needing a week off/deload.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Dr Fred Hatfield addressed the recovery rate of muscles in his article, "Finding The Ideal Training Split. http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge...training-split
This link to DR.SQUAT is broken?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
"Days Of Recovery Required For Each Body Part Before Training It Again"

As per Hatfield, Large Muslces trained heavy need around 6 days of rest to recover.
OK... if i do 4 exercises & 3-4 sets of each for say Chest i would need around 6 days of rest to recover....given i keep all parameters same (diet etc) but do just 1-2 exercise (say bench press & pec deck) for 3-4 sets each of Chest.... would i still need same 6 days to recover??

the point of all high frequency workouts is ... lower the volume to the point where you can hit the same body part again at least twice in a week... some program even make it 3 & 4 times....and mind you these programs work (granted a deload/week off is a good idea every 6-10 weeks).

My point of all this is recovery is very subjective issue and if all things outside the gym are kept constant still people can do alot more work then what we are told & blv......

a good way to tell if you are doing too much & over training is Progress in gym... i make it a point to increase weight every other week the exercise is repeated, be it as low as 2.5 lbs... and when you can't do that then it's time to take off.
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2012, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by greatkeen View Post
was it just this program that took your deadlift to 500lbs? though it seams a solid routine but deadlift volume is not more then 1 set a day / 3 sets a week?

or did i interpret the whole thing wrong.
Arian didn't list his sets. The "1" meant he is pulling singles.
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:40 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatkeen View Post
was it just this program that took your deadlift to 500lbs? though it seams a solid routine but deadlift volume is not more then 1 set a day / 3 sets a week?

or did i interpret the whole thing wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander View Post
Arian didn't list his sets. The "1" meant he is pulling singles.
Yea, sorry I made it confusing. I didn't want to post everything because it was alot to type, it isn't all that important, and my friend sells programs like this to people so I don't want to give all the info out.

But I was definitely doing more than just 1 set. 5-7 sets at the beginning of the week and about 3 sets towards the end of the week. Plus at the lower percentages, less rest was used. So if its 70%, it would be only 30 secs rest, if its 80% it would be only 60 secs rest.

So I had around 15 work sets on squat, 20 work sets on bench, and 10-15 work sets on deadlift a week plus the military press work and back work I would throw in some days.

EDIT:
The deadlift set up was based on this table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3CTfHSBTg
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Squat: 463 Bench: 275 Deadlift: 529 Total: 1262

"Technique is always the first place to begin when striving to improve at a specific skill."
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:30 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatkeen View Post
This link to DR.SQUAT is broken?
Ok, try this: http://drsquat.com/content/knowledge...training-split

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatkeen View Post
OK... if i do 4 exercises & 3-4 sets of each for say Chest i would need around 6 days of rest to recover....given i keep all parameters same (diet etc) but do just 1-2 exercise (say bench press & pec deck) for 3-4 sets each of Chest.... would i still need same 6 days to recover??

the point of all high frequency workouts is ... lower the volume to the point where you can hit the same body part again at least twice in a week... some program even make it 3 & 4 times....and mind you these programs work (granted a deload/week off is a good idea every 6-10 weeks).
Actually, that approach makes some sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatkeen View Post
a good way to tell if you are doing too much & over training is Progress in gym... i make it a point to increase weight every other week the exercise is repeated, be it as low as 2.5 lbs... and when you can't do that then it's time to take off.
Good point.

Occum's Razor

The simpliest answer is the best one. In other words, don't overthink it or analysize it.

Kenny Croxdale
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  #17  
Old 11-09-2012, 01:01 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post

EDIT:
The deadlift set up was based on this table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3CTfHSBTg
Some of the information in this is informative and has it place...but

Deadlift Singles

No doubt this is an effective method of training technique in the deadlift.

With that said, singles are just as effective in training the squat, bench press and other movements, as well

Thus, there is NO exclusivity to single, it works for other movements, too.

Touch And Go Deadlifts

This has a place in conventional deadlift training.

In conventional deadlifting, most lifters sticking point is in the knee area, just below or above.

Performing a Touch and Go allows convetional deadlifters to more effectively overload the sticking point in the knee area.

Stretch Reflex

Touch and Go (as the video state) allows you to develop the stretch reflex.

Rather than sitting in the hole adjusting your hand postion and getting ready, there are a couple of methods that will allow you to engage the stretch reflex to some extent when coming off the floor.

Power Output

Touch and Go Deadlifts also allow you to produce more power.

Power is the grease that allows you to slide through your sticking point.

Car Analogy

In driving through a mud hole, you changes of making it are much better if your increase your speed before you go into the mud hole.

Optimum Total

The recommended total number of singles provide some good parameters.

However, the deciding factor in how many singles you perform is your technique.

Once it falls apart, you have to options.

1) Stop performing the exercise for that day. Continuing to perform with poor form reinforces bad technique.

2) Take longer rest periods. Longer rest periods will allow you to extent the number of singles you perform.

The overall video is good but to some extent it is a bit one dimensional.

At some point it will stop working and as the vidoe said, that when you need to rethink your training approach.

Kenny Croxdale
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2012, 02:43 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
arian11 is 500 deadlift achieved, time for a 500 squat!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Some of the information in this is informative and has it place...but

Deadlift Singles

No doubt this is an effective method of training technique in the deadlift.

With that said, singles are just as effective in training the squat, bench press and other movements, as well

Thus, there is NO exclusivity to single, it works for other movements, too.

Touch And Go Deadlifts

This has a place in conventional deadlift training.

In conventional deadlifting, most lifters sticking point is in the knee area, just below or above.

Performing a Touch and Go allows convetional deadlifters to more effectively overload the sticking point in the knee area.

Stretch Reflex

Touch and Go (as the video state) allows you to develop the stretch reflex.

Rather than sitting in the hole adjusting your hand postion and getting ready, there are a couple of methods that will allow you to engage the stretch reflex to some extent when coming off the floor.

Power Output

Touch and Go Deadlifts also allow you to produce more power.

Power is the grease that allows you to slide through your sticking point.

Car Analogy

In driving through a mud hole, you changes of making it are much better if your increase your speed before you go into the mud hole.

Optimum Total

The recommended total number of singles provide some good parameters.

However, the deciding factor in how many singles you perform is your technique.

Once it falls apart, you have to options.

1) Stop performing the exercise for that day. Continuing to perform with poor form reinforces bad technique.

2) Take longer rest periods. Longer rest periods will allow you to extent the number of singles you perform.

The overall video is good but to some extent it is a bit one dimensional.

At some point it will stop working and as the vidoe said, that when you need to rethink your training approach.

Kenny Croxdale
Yes, singles can be effective for all lifts. That is why there are programs like Westside that have Max Effort Upper and Lower days to hit heavy singles on all the lifts. I still think it is the most important for deadlift though as far as 1RM because you don't have a negative phase to take advantage of the stretch reflex for the deadlift as compared to the squat and bench.

I don't like touch and go reps at all. I only do conventional and my lockout is my weakest point but still I don't believe in touch and go reps, especially for a beginner or someone with bad technique. Most people end up banging the reps off the ground just to get more reps in. This causes several problems like even more bad form. And you are never at the same starting point as your original rep. So now you are not training the same movement and teaching your body the correct motor pattern. If I want to train my lockout, then I'll just do rack pulls or strengthen muscles that work the most in the lockout like my glutes. I don't see the need to ruin my technique when that is most important to me.

And, yes, at some point the approach will stop working. At some point, pretty much every approach will stop working. Part of that is your body adapting to that approach. And part of that is as you get stronger and stronger, it will be harder to put lbs on your lifts regardless of your training protocol. I've gotten about 15-20 lbs out of strictly doing singles but I am going to go back to 5s for the next 6 weeks and see if that new stimulus of doing reps with higher weights now that my max is higher will bring about some new gains.

And this is a great conversation we're having, but I don't really think it is applicable to the original post. Maybe we should make a separate thread to discuss training methods or something.
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Squat: 463 Bench: 275 Deadlift: 529 Total: 1262

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  #19  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:38 PM
Kenny Croxda Kenny Croxda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
I don't believe in touch and go reps, especially for a beginner or someone with bad technique. Most people end up banging the reps off the ground just to get more reps in. This causes several problems like even more bad form.
Bad Technique

Bad technique happens with singles just as with Touch and Gos.

Beginner's and intermediates perform deadlifts with improper technique even with singles. That "just go get more reps in."

No matter how you twist it, bad technique will and does occur with singles as well as reps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
And you are never at the same starting point as your original rep. So now you are not training the same movement and teaching your body the correct motor pattern.
Heavy Singles

Heavy singles simulate powerlifting meet contitions. So, they should be practices at some point.

That holds true with the squat and bench press.



[quote=arian11;925235]If I want to train my lockout, then I'll just do rack pulls or strengthen muscles that work the most in the lockout like my glutes. I don't see the need to ruin my technique when that is most important to me.

The Irony

The irony of performing Rack Deadlifts the movement is no the same regular deadlifts. That means you technique is not the same. Thus, your are reinforcing poor technique.

Auxilary Movements

What you want is an auxiliary exercise that train the weak point without reinforcing poor technique.


Quote:
Originally Posted by arian11 View Post
And this is a great conversation we're having, but I don't really think it is applicable to the original post. Maybe we should make a separate thread to discuss training methods or something.
No, it does not adress the original post.

Kenny Croxdale
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:18 PM
arian11 arian11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Croxda View Post
Bad Technique

Bad technique happens with singles just as with Touch and Gos.

Beginner's and intermediates perform deadlifts with improper technique even with singles. That "just go get more reps in."

No matter how you twist it, bad technique will and does occur with singles as well as reps.



Heavy Singles

Heavy singles simulate powerlifting meet contitions. So, they should be practices at some point.

That holds true with the squat and bench press.


The Irony

The irony of performing Rack Deadlifts the movement is no the same regular deadlifts. That means you technique is not the same. Thus, your are reinforcing poor technique.

Auxilary Movements

What you want is an auxiliary exercise that train the weak point without reinforcing poor technique.




No, it does not adress the original post.

Kenny Croxdale
I never said bad technique does not happen with singles. I'm saying bad technique gets worse with touch and go reps. With singles, each rep becomes its own. You set up solely for that attempt and if you do something wrong, you are able to try and correct it on your next attempt. I bring my iPod to the gym all the time, so I'll film my first single and watch it before I attempt my second. That way I can adjust based on any mistakes I'm making. Plus singles give you more chances to practice set up which a beginner needs. Instead of doing 3 sets of 5 you can now do 5-10 sets of singles and get more chances at a perfect set up and a perfect attempt.

Once again, I never said singles should not be attempted with squats and bench press. They should and I definitely do it, especially with paused bench leading up to a meet. What I am saying is that singles for deadlift are even more important than squats or bench because it better mimics a 1RM because you don't start with the negative phase in the deadlift. With touch and go reps the saying is, "if you can do it for a single, you can do it for a triple." This is because the next reps will become easier because you are using the stretch reflex, you are bouncing off the ground and using momentum, and with the bar bending you are shortening the distance of the successive reps.

Except rack pull is a different exercise as a regular deadlift and your mind knows this. You have a separate motor pattern that is made for a rack pull than for a regular deadlift. Just like you would have a separate motor pattern for a front squat as you would for a back squat. But I'm sure most coaches would recommend rack pulls over touch and go reps for a lockout weakness because it is more specific to what your goal is and, once again, does not interfere with the regular deadlift motor patterns.

EDIT:
Also, I have no proof to back this claim up but I don't think touch and go reps are as safe. When I see people banging the bar off the ground I think, "where is that force going?" Well I would think first it pounds into your wrist, which can't be good, then travels up your arms and into your spine which can't be good either.
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"Strength is the product of struggle, you must do what others don't to achieve what others won't."
Competition PRs-
Squat: 463 Bench: 275 Deadlift: 529 Total: 1262

"Technique is always the first place to begin when striving to improve at a specific skill."
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Last edited by arian11; 11-09-2012 at 11:21 PM.
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