Training to failure!!!!!

[Commander]

In your own words:
"my legs are all over the shop as I'm struggling to rack the weight back up....or I have to drop the bar onto my power rack cause I can't get it back up"

That's not "slightly" cheating, that is all out complete concentric failure.

Not advisable to do every set unless you want injuries and to stagnate in your training.

If you want to go to failure, I would use rep speed as a good indicator, once the rep speed diminished significantly but form is still good, terminate the set. The last set of an exercise or the last exercise, sure consider going past that. But overall, staying a rep or two away from training will allow you to train much more consistently.

It makes it much easier to plan progression as Ecko noted above with his example:
Example:
week 1 315x7
week 2 315x8 or 317.5x7 or 320x7

[greatkeen]

Originally Posted by Commander

In your own words:
"my legs are all over the shop as I'm struggling to rack the weight back up....or I have to drop the bar onto my power rack cause I can't get it back up"

That's not "slightly" cheating, that is all out complete concentric failure.

Not advisable to do every set unless you want injuries and to stagnate in your training.

Why not advisable? from the description slimshad7 is giving i presume he is following something along the lines of DC (though not strictly DC)...which calls for each set to complete Positive failure..followed by 3 rest pause sets. Now the point to note here is .... over training is avoided by controlling frequency and overall volume of workout..and week off/deload every 5-6weeks or as required.

strictly DC calls for just 1 freaking WORKSET for a particular bodypart. you dont over train that simply....for eg: Shoulders - say Military Press....after required warm up....1 heavy set to positive failure in your desired rep range - that could be any where between 8-12 ideally..followed by 3 rest pause sets. AND That' IT... shoulder workout is done for the day.

But then i am sure Commander you are already very well aware of DC protocol.

[greatkeen]

Originally Posted by Commander

One thing this discussion hinges upon is what are you defining failure as?

Technique breakdown
Concentric Failure slightly cheat form
Complete Concentric Failure

Obviously, complete concentric failure is not advisable to do every set. But I would hesitate to get close to technique breakdown on every set either.

You are kinda correct here... i don't think so deeply about failure. my plan is fairly simple...my target is 30 reps total for 4 sets. i aim to break it ... 12, 10,8,6...that's my AIM...but i may actually end up getting only ..10,8,7,6 all to Failure..(unable to do the positive part of the rep with GOOD form...little deterioration is OK). now in 10,8,7,6...i did get to target of 30 reps so next time for this same exercise i will increase the load say by 5% (or whatever seems right)....

Originally Posted by Commander

As Ecko31 posted, stearing clear of failure in early sets, allows you to get in more total volume and allows you to get in more reps on the heavier sets.

???. Ecko31 posted ''Barbell press 135x15 185x10 225x8 250x8 275x6 315x7(failure)'' totaling to 11,530. though for a person that can do 7 reps with 315 on a particular exercise... '135x15 and 185x10' seem mere warm up sets but still for simple argument sake count as work sets.

now what i do is :warm up: 135x8, 185x6, 250x6
workset: 315x10, 315x8, 315x7-8, 315x6-7.... totaling to 10,395+3690 if the warm up sets are counted too..

now my intention is very positive with this debate and i just want to see if what i am doing is optimal strategy or not.

[slimshad7]

To be honest guys.....I'd never heard of dc training until its just been mentioned here.......all I've been told by other sources is to make sure I lift until I can't lift anymore(as in either really struggling to get the bar back up to rack it or can't actually get it back up at all)....and if I can't reach the required amount of reps for that set without failing,then to rest pause until I get up to that 12th rep.i was told to do this from the very first set to the last set,in other words the total workout to be done this way,every time I workout.

my chest and tri workout
3 sets x 4 exercises for chest
3 set x 2 exercises for tri's

So in this workout I would hit failure multiple times,near enough every set,classing all my sets as worksets.

[greatkeen]

lol.. so may be your other sources are inspired by DC.

none the less, i saw your progress pics...you put in hard work and it shows...so my advice don't try to fix it if it ain't broken.

[slimshad7]

Thankyou greatkeen for the compliment.......and your right....that way of training has worked ok for me.

But I have definately plateaued now training that way.....I don't seem to be able to increase the weight on the bar now.and when I did try(which was this week) I've ended up with a couple of pulled muscles which stopped me training for a couple of days :-(

I mean I can add the weight but then my reps drop and I fail alot sooner,even when I only add say about 5lb-8lb to the bar.

[Commander]

Originally Posted by greatkeen

Why not advisable? from the description slimshad7 is giving i presume he is following something along the lines of DC (though not strictly DC)...which calls for each set to complete Positive failure..followed by 3 rest pause sets. Now the point to note here is .... over training is avoided by controlling frequency and overall volume of workout..and week off/deload every 5-6weeks or as required.

strictly DC calls for just 1 freaking WORKSET for a particular bodypart. you dont over train that simply....for eg: Shoulders - say Military Press....after required warm up....1 heavy set to positive failure in your desired rep range - that could be any where between 8-12 ideally..followed by 3 rest pause sets. AND That' IT... shoulder workout is done for the day.

But then i am sure Commander you are already very well aware of DC protocol.

By your own description, it is clear he is way past DC.

1. As you mention, DC only calls for 1 workset (with the rest pause of course) but he is doing many sets to failure (12 sets for chest in his recent post).

2. I watched many videos of prominent DC advocates, and they do not let their form deteriorate to the point of legs flopping around or having to drop the bar.

Originally Posted by greatkeen

???. Ecko31 posted

Sorry if there was confusion because I didn't directly quote him. Here is what I was referring to:

Originally Posted by ecko31s

For example:
Barbell press 135x15 185x10 225x8 250x8 275x6 315x7(failure)
If your were to do each set to complete failure your routine my look like this:
135x50 185x35 225x20 250x13 275x8 315x2 On the heaviest set you would be exhausted from the previous sets and would be weaker. It would be hard to make progress and you would probably hit a plateau quickly stuck at the same weight for a period of time. With the first example you would simply go for one more rep each workout on the heaviest set or add small weight increments such as 2.5 or 5lbs and try to perform the same amount of reps.
Example:
week 1 315x7
week 2 315x8 or 317.5x7 or 320x7
with this method you can steadily make progress each week and continue to get stronger. Well at least in my case...Never know until you try something.

When I said the Ecko posted that steering clear of failure can help towards getting more on the heavy set and having more total volume I was referring to his illustration above in red.

[slimshad7]

Exactly.....

Say I had 200lbs on the bar in my first set and failed at 10....I was advised to rest pause,then lift another 2......then my 2nd set I fail at 8,rest pause then try and get another 4......then my 3rd set I fail at 6,rest pause and say I get another 3 and fail again,rest pause and then try and get another 3 for the 12.....

And that's on every set of every exercise

[Commander]

Originally Posted by slimshad7

Exactly.....

Say I had 200lbs on the bar in my first set and failed at 10....I was advised to rest pause,then lift another 2......then my 2nd set I fail at 8,rest pause then try and get another 4......then my 3rd set I fail at 6,rest pause and say I get another 3 and fail again,rest pause and then try and get another 3 for the 12.....

And that's on every set of every exercise

That is WAY too much.

Volume and Intensity are on a continuum. Training extremely high intensity necessitates a reduction in volume and vice versa, training with extremely high volume means you must reduce weight or use of intensity techniques (rest pause, drop sets, emphasized negatives).

Training is very much about finding a balance that works for you.

You are attempting to lift with extremely high intensity (multiple rest pause sets taken to failure) and while I wouldn't say 12 sets for chest is high volume, it is at least fair to say that is moderate, definitely not low volume. Very high intensity is best paired with lower volume (such as DC or HIT).

[greatkeen]

Originally Posted by Commander

That is WAY too much.

Volume and Intensity are on a continuum. Training extremely high intensity necessitates a reduction in volume and vice versa, training with extremely high volume means you must reduce weight or use of intensity techniques (rest pause, drop sets, emphasized negatives).

Training is very much about finding a balance that works for you.

You are attempting to lift with extremely high intensity (multiple rest pause sets taken to failure) and while I wouldn't say 12 sets for chest is high volume, it is at least fair to say that is moderate, definitely not low volume. Very high intensity is best paired with lower volume (such as DC or HIT).

DITTOO to that.....this is why i refered to his training to DC...but detoriated version of it...

Anyways...SlimShad...heres my advice...take a whole week off training...rest!

then come back with reduced volume and reduced poundages (for first week or so)..then when your muscles are ready...say from 2nd week or so...HIT JUST 1 WORKSET of JUST 1 EXERCISE for 1 BODYPART....with this same intensity you have described earlier in this thread.....now after that 1 workset...rest for say 15-20 secs (roughly thats 20-25 deep breaths) then hit the same weright again for for as many reps as possible...rest for say 15-20 secs (roughly thats 20-25 deep breaths)...then hit the same weight again for another mini set of as many reps as possible...on paper it would look like eg: 12 reps + rest + 7 reps + rest + 5 reps + rest + 3-4 reps...note: these are just arbitary numbers you may actually hit diff rep scheme...important thing is the intensity should be the same or even more then what you described... remember it would be just 1 WORKSET now!!!

and further i would advice ... if you are really interested in this type of workout....go and visit DC official website...intensemuscle.com...read up read up read up as much as you can and then read some more...

let me know if i can help further.