Presidential Politics

[superbilt]

Originally Posted by HardCory

I like Ron Paul as well, but don't see him getting voted as the Republican candidate, as many see his ideas as extreme. Right now it looks like Herman Cain is the front runner, I do like his 999 plan and his position on illegal immigration, but we'll see how this plays out in the near future.

He seems like an intelligent guy. However, his 999 plan is awful. Economists bash it and rightly so. I can support a flat tax because I believe everyone should pay their fair share and far too many Americans get away with paying nothing. However, a 9% federal sales tax is awful on top of a state sales tax. Here in NJ we pay 7% state sales tax add 9% and you are looking at 16% try buying a 20k car which would be $21400 now would go up to $23200. That would ruin the economy not stimulate it. Who has an extra almost $2000 to pay the government to buy a car. It is not just major purchases that would be effected either think about all the little purchases we make that would cost more.

[bigironcross]

I really don't understand why anyone believes a flat tax is fair. I know that we all benefit from good roads, good schools, excellent military, etc. However, shouldn't the individuals who benefit most from these, pay the most (progressively) in taxes. Over the past thirty years, the conservative Republicans in my state with the help of the liberal Democrats, have increased local and state taxes greatly on all. However, the lower and middle wage earners feel the effect more. More items are being taxed at a higher rate. Many services that were not taxed in the past are now being taxed. Federal taxes have decreased on all. However, the lions share of the decrease was enjoyed by the higher wage earners. Poverty rates are increasing. Income drops for lower and middle income earners and income increases for higher income earners. How is it fair? And, don't tell me that these higher income earners earned their level of income when many just inherited it. That is why many of the higher income earners in the late 1800s supported the so-called "death tax" because they knew that their decendents didn't deserve or earn the level of income that they generated by their talents.

[superbilt]

Bigironcross,

46% to 51% of Americans pay no federal taxes or get back more than they put in. How is that fair to the other 49% to 51%? We are all Americans and we all benefit from living in this country. Therefore, all of us should pay our fair share.

I do understand the flaws in a flat tax hurting low income vs. high income earners. Look at Cain's 9% plan. Take an earner of 20k he/she will pay $1800 in federal tax. Take an earner at $1 million and he/she will pay $90,000. Obviously, the high income earner can afford the 90k and the low income earner probably needs every dollar he/she can get.

But how is it fair if that high income earner pays all the taxes and the low income earner pays nothing?

Now, I believe Millionaire should pay more because right now they have a lower tax rate than the middle class earners which is not fair. Something needs to change to benefit the 99% as opposed to the top 1%.

[Wizard24]

Originally Posted by bigironcross

I really don't understand why anyone believes a flat tax is fair.

The flat tax comes straight out of the Bible. God says that everyone should give 10%. He apparently thinks it's fair.

Originally Posted by bigironcross

I know that we all benefit from good roads, good schools, excellent military, etc. However, shouldn't the individuals who benefit most from these, pay the most (progressively) in taxes.

Okay, someone is going to have to explain this rational to me because apparently I am not bright enough to grasp it. How exactly to rich people benefit more from good roads . . . Do they drive on them more than other people? How do they benefits more from effective national security . . . are their lives and safety worth more than others? How do rich people benefit more from public education . . . Do the teachers in these schools only teach the rich kids while ignoring the poor ones? How do rich people benefit more from Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, public housing and farm subsidies?

Originally Posted by bigironcross

Federal taxes have decreased on all. However, the lions share of the decrease was enjoyed by the higher wage earners. Poverty rates are increasing. Income drops for lower and middle income earners and income increases for higher income earners. How is it fair?

Taxes have nothing to do with increasing poverty rates. It has nothing to do with the overall income dropping for low/middle earners (which by the way it hasn’t . . . families are earning more now than they ever have). We all have less purchasing power because the value of our currency has been sabotaged through QE1, QE2, and other unsound fiscal policies.

Originally Posted by bigironcross

And, don't tell me that these higher income earners earned their level of income when many just inherited it.

Huh? You can’t inherit income. Income is something that you get paid for providing something else whether it be labor, goods, services, capital etc. No one has ever gotten an income for being born.

Originally Posted by superbilt

Now, I believe Millionaire should pay more because right now they have a lower tax rate than the middle class earners which is not fair.

This notion that millionaires are taxed at a lower rate than lower wage earners is also completely false. For 2011 a person earning $1,000,000 in income will be taxed at 35%. A person earning up to $44,000 in income will be taxed somewhere between 10% - 15% (actually most othese people will end up not paying any taxes at all). This whole “millionaires pay less taxes than minimum wage earners” is complete hogwash.

[Commander]

Wizard, I thought this thread was about politics, you aren't allowed to make so much sense.

[superbilt]

Wizard,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...RmhL_blog.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...wpisrc=nl_wonk

http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...tax_rates.html

Not all millionaires pay less but many do than the middle class earners. However, like I said I could support a flat tax because we all benefit services.

[bigironcross]

Originally Posted by Wizard24

The flat tax comes straight out of the Bible. God says that everyone should give 10%. He apparently thinks it's fair.

Tithe is not a tax. God owns the whole 100%. He just wants us to give 10% (first fruit) for his service and to be a good steward of the other 90%.

Originally Posted by Wizard24

Okay, someone is going to have to explain this rational to me because apparently I am not bright enough to grasp it. How exactly to rich people benefit more from good roads . . . Do they drive on them more than other people? How do they benefits more from effective national security . . . are their lives and safety worth more than others? How do rich people benefit more from public education . . . Do the teachers in these schools only teach the rich kids while ignoring the poor ones? How do rich people benefit more from Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, public housing and farm subsidies?

Well, when I'm driving down the road, I sure see a lot of vehicles owned by businesses owned by rich people using them. And, national security is protecting these businesses. And, public education supplies them a educated work force which helps their businesses be successful.

Originally Posted by Wizard24

Taxes have nothing to do with increasing poverty rates. It has nothing to do with the overall income dropping for low/middle earners (which by the way it hasn’t . . . families are earning more now than they ever have). We all have less purchasing power because the value of our currency has been sabotaged through QE1, QE2, and other unsound fiscal policies.?

The percentage of people controlling a greater percentage of this country's wealth is getting smaller and smaller.

Originally Posted by Wizard24

Huh? You can’t inherit income. Income is something that you get paid for providing something else whether it be labor, goods, services, capital etc. No one has ever gotten an income for being born..?

I guess in your world people cannot use inherited money or resources to generate income?

Originally Posted by Wizard24

This notion that millionaires are taxed at a lower rate than lower wage earners is also completely false. For 2011 a person earning $1,000,000 in income will be taxed at 35%. A person earning up to $44,000 in income will be taxed somewhere between 10% - 15% (actually most othese people will end up not paying any taxes at all). This whole “millionaires pay less taxes than minimum wage earners” is complete hogwash.

No, a percentage of his $1,000,000 will be taxed at 35%. His initial $44,000 will be taxed at the same percentage as the person making only $44,000.


I have nothing against wealthy people. I just believe that they need to start paying their fair share since our nation has provide them the opportunity to generate the wealth that they enjoy.

James chapter 5 offers an interesting perspective on the rich.

[Wizard24]

Superbilt,
I could not open the links that you supplied from work (actually they just about shut down my computer trying to open them) but I am going to guess that they point out that due to the lower rates on capital gains these millionaires end up paying lower tax rates overall than those whose $$ just comes from ordinary income. While the math on this may be completely true it is disingenuous to use this as a reason to increase taxes on the “rich”. I firmly believe that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income. Think about it.

What would happen if the IRS raised the capital gains tax to the same 35% rate as ordinary income?

[superbilt]

Originally Posted by Wizard24

Superbilt,
I could not open the links that you supplied from work (actually they just about shut down my computer trying to open them) but I am going to guess that they point out that due to the lower rates on capital gains these millionaires end up paying lower tax rates overall than those whose $$ just comes from ordinary income. While the math on this may be completely true it is disingenuous to use this as a reason to increase taxes on the “rich”. I firmly believe that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income. Think about it.

What would happen in the IRS raised the capital gains tax to the same 35% rate as ordinary income?

The links talk about income and how many millionaires get taxed at lower rates than middle class workers based on nonpartisan research.

I copied some of the facts from the articles for you

■1,470 households reported income of more than $1 million in 2009 but paid zero federal income tax on it.

■The average federal income tax rate of the richest 400 people in the country in 2008 was 18.11 percent. In 2007 it was 16.62 percent. That is only a little more than just the payroll tax on wages—normally 15.3 percent on a worker’s first $106,800 in wages, counting both the share that workers pay directly and the share their employers pay, which comes out of their wages—let alone the federal income tax on those wages. The tax rates paid by the “Fortunate 400” have plummeted since the mid-1990s, when their average effective rates were about 30 percent.

■According to the Congressional Budget Office, the richest 0.01 percent (those with incomes of $8.6 million and above) paid a combined 17.5 percent in individual income and payroll taxes in 2005, the last year for which such data are available. The group of households with incomes ranging from $45,200–$92,400 paid only a little less on average, at 15.7 percent. The group of households with incomes ranging from $30,500–$45,200 paid 12.5 percent. Of course, there are wide variations within those income ranges, meaning that many middle-class families paid much more than the 17.5 percent average paid by the very rich, while many in the top 0.01 percent paid less than that.

■Due to the so-called carried interest loophole, managers of hedge funds and private equity funds pay 15 percent capital gains rates, and no payroll taxes, on their profits from managing other people’s money. That’s less than what middle-class families pay just in payroll taxes on their wages—let alone what they pay in income taxes. An important part of President Obama’s deficit reduction plan unveiled yesterday is closing the carried interest loophole.

But the point of the Buffett Rule is that some millionaires, not all, are paying lower tax rates than middle income people. This report tells us that nearly 100,000 of them are in this category. In other words, the report confirms that those who are saying that this is a widespread phenomenon are absolutely right. Buffett himself has confessed that he pays lower tax rates than the other people working in his office. If this report is accurate, there are nearly 100,000 Warren Buffetts out there.

[bigironcross]

Lowering tax rates on the wealthy create jobs.

So, where are all these jobs?