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  #11  
Old 07-08-2007, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

Incredible analysis, president!


[ QUOTE ]
If you look at the data this created a moderate rise in plasma amino acids which was maintained at steady state for 360 minutes, thus it would have a powerful effect on protein degradation of which insulin would not lower it further.

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This also is not very practical, because most would not have small boluses of protein every 30 minutes for 6 hours!!!

So if you were to have one bolus of amino acids protein post exercise, stacked with carbs immediately, the results probably would definitely differed. Most likely, protein synthesis would be higher, and protein degredation would also have been lower with carb supplementation.
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  #12  
Old 07-08-2007, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

[ QUOTE ]
So if you were to have one bolus of amino acids protein post exercise, stacked with carbs immediately, the results probably would definitely differed. Most likely, protein synthesis would be higher, and protein degredation would also have been lower with carb supplementation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly,

and I think that this is what the work of Boire and Dangdin and colleagues have demonstrated. So we need two studies to follow from this one

1. Do these effects remain under one large bolus ingestion of EAAs

2. What r the chronic effects

Overall this is a great study though, great job posting it!
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2007, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

[ QUOTE ]
1. Do these effects remain under one large bolus ingestion of EAAs

[/ QUOTE ]

Tipton has actually tested this a few times.

From what I am seeing, protein balance is greater when you combine EAA’s with carbohydrates. And the primary mechanism appears to be decreased protein degradation via insulin. Though, he had some really fascinating ideas on how carbs may even improve protein synthesis when stacked with proteins, if the right form of proteins is consumed (this is a long discussion, so I won’t get into this).



Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise:Volume 33(5) Supplement 1May 2001p S176

POST-EXERCISE MUSCLE PROTEIN ANABOLISM: STIMULATION BY AMINO ACIDS PLUS CARBOHYDRATE VS AMINO ACIDS OR CARBOHYDRATE ALONE

Miller, S L.1; Tipton, K D.1; Wolf, S E.1; Wolfe, R R. FACSM1
1University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX

Previous work showed enhanced muscle protein anabolism following resistance exercise when essental amino acid plus carbohydrate was ingested. Indirect evidence suggests that carbohydrate alone improves muscle anabolism by diminishing muscle protein breakdown via insulin. This study investigated net phenylalanine (PHE) uptake as an index of muscle protein balance in healthy volunteers ingesting 1 of 3 drinks. Drinks, taken at 1 and 2h post-exercise, provided either 0.0857 gm/kg balanced amino acid mixture (AA), 0.5 gm/kg carbohydrate (CHO), or 0.0857 gm/kgw AA plus 0.5 gm/kg CHO (MIX). Femoral arterial and venous blood samples were collected during the 3h recovery period following exhaustive leg exercise. Net PHE balance was calculated from blood concentrations and blood flow as determined by dye dilution. Area under the curve (AUC) of net PHE uptake indicated significantly greater uptake of PHE during 3h recovery when MIX was consumed compared to CHO alone (119 ± 29 vs 64 ± 18 and 39 ± 9 mg/min, for MIX, AA, and CHO respectively. P < 0.05, n = 7 trials/drink). Insulin AUC was also significantly elevated in MIX relative to AA (MIX, 3303 ± 310; AA, 1042 ± 165; CHO, 2599 ± 205, P < .001) suggesting a combined effect of AA stimulated muscle protein synthesis and insulin suppression of muscle protein breakdown to optimize net muscle protein synthesis.

Here is another very similar investigation.

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 2003.

Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.
Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.
Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.
PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism. METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5) RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis. CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.


Essentially, results showed that the effects of stacking carbs with aminos was additive on protein balance.

They said there was not a significant difference however, between aminos and carbs + aminos on protein balance. But they did not report the p value. I bet it was like p=.06. I just did a paper on p values that has been accepted for publication, and they are really meaningless. Really effect sizes are what counts. And the effect size here was clear.

I'll post a graph once we make sure our server is fine.

The uptake of phenylalanine by muscle (used to infer protein synthesis) were 53, 71, and 114 for CHO, amions, and CHO +aminos respectively. Which indicates that CHO and aminos were additive on improving protein balance.

Here is another quote from their article on the effects of carbohydrates on protein degredation.

[ QUOTE ]
Previous studies have provided some evidence that carbohydrate
ingestion alone improves protein metabolism.
Rennie et al. showed improved leucine balance during carbohydrate
supplemented endurance exercise (13), whereas
Roy et al. reported diminished myofibrillar proteolysis when
carbohydrate was ingested following resistance exercise
(14). Our results are consistent with this latter observation,
as both urea production and Phe Ra were significantly lower
in the CHO group relative to the predrink value at 30 min,
and net balance was greater than zero throughout the 3 h
after ingestion (Fig. 6).

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #14  
Old 07-10-2007, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

[ QUOTE ]
2. What r the chronic effects

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask and you shall...

This study by Bird (2006) showed that after 12 weeks of resistance training twice weekly, consuming CHO+ EAA post exercise increased muscle mass to a greater extent, lowered protein degredation, raised insulin and lowered cortisol to a greater extent than CHO or EAA's alone.

1: Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;97(2):225-38. Epub 2006 Mar 24.

Independent and combined effects of liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training in untrained men.

Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au
This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.


[ QUOTE ]
So we need two studies to follow from this one

[/ QUOTE ]

Got any other ideas? [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #15  
Old 08-14-2007, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

Hey Gabe, that´s good info, but if I´m understanding this right the study above doesn´t really answer the question. What would be the effect of a very large dose of EAA vs the effect of CHO + EAA? Or more percicely, is there any degree at which EAA stimulates both protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown, in the post exercise state, which is not further enhanced by CHO? If there is, what are the mechanisms? If indeed one major mechanism is hyperinsulinaemia (although I´ve read studies that show BCAAs slow catabolism even in the absence of insulin), then it´s hard for me to understand why this could´t be achieved with proteins only. Even though easily digested nutrients cause a more rapid rise of insulin, insulin secretion is mainly a matter of energy quantity, isn´t it? I find this a very interesting thread by the way, thanks for the input!
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Post workout carbohydrate consumption does not increase protein syntesis

[ QUOTE ]
Or more percicely, is there any degree at which EAA stimulates both protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown, in the post exercise state, which is not further enhanced by CHO? If there is, what are the mechanisms?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too my knowledge this has not been shown. So I can't really say for sure.

The mechanism by which carbohydrates decrease protein breakdown, and may stimulate protein synthesis is commonly attributed to insulin. So if proteins were able to maximally stimulate both, then the mechanism would probably be attributed to optimal levels of insulin.

The effects of insulin on protein synthesis is extremely complicated and the results are not very consistent. I do have some study ideas on how to test this. But for sure, there is a lot of controversy on whether carbs are needed to stimulate protein synthesis.

[ QUOTE ]
Even though easily digested nutrients cause a more rapid rise of insulin, insulin secretion is mainly a matter of energy quantity, isn´t it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Substrate, too. Leucine can independently increase insulin concentrations. While the other amino acids act synergistcally with carbohydrates to increase insulin.
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Matthew 7:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
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