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-   -   Insuline spike from PWO carbs considered useless? (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95767)

LocalRedHead 02-23-2013 08:09 PM

Insuline spike from PWO carbs considered useless?
 
I am returning to fitness and working out after a couple years...

I am reading a lot of opinions on other sites about carbs in PWO shake being unneeded and in fact spiking insulin after PWO is useless because the protein will do this naturally.

In addition I've seen posts pointing to research about how the window of opportunity is not immediately after workout but rather a full 24 hours after working out.

I'm looking for differing opinions on this because it shatters my beliefs from everything I've learned on this site.

Please help me settle this issue.

Thanks!

spider-man 02-23-2013 09:04 PM

I don't think it matters nearly as much as people would have you think.

For growth you need two things IMO:

1. To get stronger on your lifts. I don't care what program your using, if it does not focus around Progressive Overload one way or another, it's not going to get you very far.

2. To eat/rest/recover enough.

Nutrition is a general thing. Recovery is a general thing. Shoot, getting stronger is a GENERAL thing! It effects the entire body.

The only thing you can monitor is your strength increases, and whether your getting 'fatter' or 'buffer'.

Don't worry about insulin. Just lift, eat, sleep.

Ratcat 02-25-2013 12:06 PM

I think the pwo shake is essential. :)

Kenny Croxda 02-25-2013 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocalRedHead (Post 925852)
I am returning to fitness and working out after a couple years...

I am reading a lot of opinions on other sites about carbs in PWO shake being unneeded and in fact spiking insulin after PWO is useless because the protein will do this naturally.

Post Workout Beverage

A whey/high glycemic index carbohydrate are an essential part of recovery. There is plenty of research on that.

The combination of whey and a high glycemic index carbohydrate provide a synergistic effect. That means the sum is greater than it parts.

A hyperbolic example would be 2 + 2 = 5.

Another Example

Think of it like having a heart attach. If you knew ahead of time you were going to have a heart attack, would you:

1) Take something to slow it down before you had it?

2) Take something while you were having it?

3) Take something immediately after having it?

4) Have it but don't do anything?

Obviously, you want to do 1, 2, and 3.

Hard training sessions cause some trama to the body.

So, what you do before, during and immediately after make a difference.

Nutrient Timing

This is one of the most definitive books on Pre, Peri and Post Workout consumption by Dr John Ivy. The beauty of the book is it is a quick easy read.

ABC Bodybuilding Research

This Advance Nutrition site at ABC Bodybuilding provide great information.
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/advancednutrition.html

Maximize Protein Synthesis
by Bill Willis PhDc and John Meadows CISSN, CSCS
http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=4857153

Willis and Meadow have an excellent article on how protein and high glycemic index carbodhyrates provide an anabolic environment.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LocalRedHead (Post 925852)
In addition I've seen posts pointing to research about how the window of opportunity is not immediately after workout but rather a full 24 hours after working out.

The "Window" actually begins with your Pre Workout beverage or meal. It continues beyond that time frame.

What exactly is PROTEIN SYNTHESIS?!
http://rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57...e-2-12-13.html

This is an excellent audio seminar by Drs Layne Norton and Jake Wilson on protein synthesis and how it occurs. Protein Synthesis means more muscle mass.

Kenny Croxdale

Commander 02-25-2013 05:35 PM

Good post Kenny and good links.

I would have suggested some of those links as well.

BTW, it's Jake, not Jack, and he is the President of ABC Bodybuilding.com. Just a neat little tidbit, in case you didn't know. : )

Kenny Croxda 02-25-2013 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander (Post 925862)
Good post Kenny and good links.

I would have suggested some of those links as well.

BTW, it's Jake, not Jack, and he is the President of ABC Bodybuilding.com. Just a neat little tidbit, in case you didn't know. : )

Jake

I am challanged. My fingers and brain don't work together at the same time. :(

I corrected it.

Thanks,

Kenny

Charles Izzo 03-08-2013 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocalRedHead (Post 925852)
I am returning to fitness and working out after a couple years...

I am reading a lot of opinions on other sites about carbs in PWO shake being unneeded and in fact spiking insulin after PWO is useless because the protein will do this naturally.

In addition I've seen posts pointing to research about how the window of opportunity is not immediately after workout but rather a full 24 hours after working out.

I'm looking for differing opinions on this because it shatters my beliefs from everything I've learned on this site.

Please help me settle this issue.

Thanks!

You can do it with a shake or you can do it with other types of food. It actually does help A LOT in making you stronger. I've tried it recently, consuming a lot of carbs post workout, and it definitely made a noticeable difference within a few weeks.

However, I'd warn that it really does depend on your goals. HUGE insulin spikes will help you get stronger, but they are also bad for you. So you have to consider that.

Additionally, you have to consider the fact that insulin causes fat storage. With that in mind, in order to reap the benefits without experiencing fat gain hindering desired fat loss, you'd have to make sure the rest of your diet is in check.

And that's actually why I would highly recommend against post workout carbs to anyone who has A LOT of fat weight to lose. They need to get the rest of their diet in check first and learn how to drop the fat. They need to learn the basics first.

Commander 03-08-2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Izzo (Post 925914)
Additionally, you have to consider the fact that insulin causes fat storage. With that in mind, in order to reap the benefits without experiencing fat gain hindering desired fat loss, you'd have to make sure the rest of your diet is in check.

Agreed.

Definitely need the rest of the diet in check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Izzo (Post 925914)
However, I'd warn that it really does depend on your goals. HUGE insulin spikes will help you get stronger, but they are also bad for you. So you have to consider that.

I believe it isn't so much the huge insulin spike that is the problem, but rather it is the NUMEROUS and CONSTANT insulin spikes that the typical American diet causes.

I don't have a study to back me up (not saying there isn't one, I am just too lazy to look, lol), but I believe a healthy powerlifter/bodybuilder with their diet in check with have no adverse effects from a huge insulin spike 4 to 5 times per week with their workout shake.

LocalRedHead 03-09-2013 04:40 AM

Thank you all for the incredibly detailed responses.

This is why I come here and stay away from other bodybuilding websites.

Charles Izzo 03-10-2013 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LocalRedHead (Post 925921)
Thank you all for the incredibly detailed responses.

This is why I come here and stay away from other bodybuilding websites.

Here's another way to look at it. Insulin is the most anabolic hormone. All the heaviest top pro bodybuilders know this very well; (note: the way they use it is VERY dangerous). All us naturals are doing is finding a way to do the best we can to stimulate insulin naturally, and preferably at the right time, so we can reap the benefits without getting fat or risking our lives.

I really can't put it any simpler than that. You can talk about shuttling nutrients or what ever all day long if you want. But at the end of the day, it's the anabolic properties of the insulin we are looking for. Insulin tells the cells to grow.

Post workout is clearly the best time to cause an insulin spike, if you chose to do so. Because this is during the time when the body is already working on recovery and growth. Any other time, you'll be more likely to just cause fat storage.

Now you don't HAVE to do it. But you do have the option. And it does work very well. Even if you can't build much more muscle, it still makes you significantly stronger. You'll notice it within weeks.

I'll reiterate that I just don't think it's a good idea when your primary goal is fat loss. It really does depend though. If you're really meticulous, it should still work. But if you're more into simplicity, then I wouldn't bother with it.


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