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-   -   Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit? (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81998)

Venom 10-07-2006 08:49 AM

Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
Many athletes repeat the mantra over and over again that you cannot gain muscle on a cut. Is this correct? Or is it possible for athletes to gain muscle on a caloric deficit?

Some things to consider:

1. We often focus on diet, but are there other factors which stop people from gaining muscle on a cut, compared to a bulk? If so, what factors?
2. What is the role of training experience in determining whether you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit?

I would highly advise reading this article, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/hpresearch.php and these interviews, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/hpinterview.php

Some really cool evidence is shown on this topic!

pkq 10-08-2006 01:13 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
Amazing.
I was just going to post a question about this.
I was concerned that my progress was "too good" and therefore not accurate. For the last few weeks I have been taking the largest of the 3 caliper measurements (and sometimes tacking on a mm to that)

Everywhere i read, it was not possible to lose fat and gain muscle. The idea behind that theory makes sense. One requires a calorie deficit, and one requires a calorie surplus.
However sometimes practical applications of theories provide unexpected results.

I realize I have made some drastic lifestyle changes, but i still didn't believe it possible.

I realize now if I continue my post will get long and uninteresting.

I have been using the Cutting Challenge word document, and following the contest rules (except posting my journal).
If you MODS want the data when I am done I can certainly provide it.

rickck48 10-08-2006 11:09 PM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
I read the 2 articles you have here and they were smiple enough for lamen as myself. Great job and the interviews were really good, make sme think about at my age there is a chance i could do the challenge next time. Thanks so much for your efforts here. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

book 10-08-2006 11:57 PM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
I believe you can due to Nutrient Partitioning BUT when you get into too much of an excess no matter how well your diet/supplements are you cannot gain muscle. For me I find -500 is this point (and when I get lower the 10%).

kokokolo 10-09-2006 02:11 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
to do both at the same time, basically you have to be really good, and really determined.

Venom 10-09-2006 04:17 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
[ QUOTE ]
to do both at the same time, basically you have to be really good, and really determined.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this quote a lot. [img]/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ShowKidd 11-09-2006 03:44 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
how much HMB do you recomend daily?

Ignoramus 11-09-2006 07:47 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
man im so glad u posted this. i was pretty devastated when i came to the conclusion that you cant have the best of both worlds.

dashforce 11-10-2006 03:55 PM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
I think I might have gained muscle and lost fat this month. Just had my Bod Pod appointment, and according to it I've lost about 4 lbs fat and lost 1 pound LBM. (I know what you're thinking -- hold on a minute and let me explain).

In the time span between the last checkup and this one, I've done close to 4 weeks on the Anabolic Diet, a cyclical low-carb diet. Last BF test, I was eating moderate carb with dextrose/malto PWO, so my glycogen stores were probably moderate to high. This test was done on day 4 of carb depletion (after chest, back, arms, and immediately after legs day) so my glycogen stores + the water they hold were probably pretty much gone.

However, despite glycogen depletion, almost all my measurements went up compared to last month (except waist of course) which indicates to me that I probably didn't lose much (or maybe any?) muscle in that 1 lb LBM, but instead that it was probably reflected in glycogen and water loss.

So... let's see if this is reasonable:

[ QUOTE ]
Normal muscle glycogen stores of the general population are approximately 70-90 mmol.kg-1 wet weight.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0035.htm

So let's say 80 mmol/kg wet weight. For me, that's 80*10^-3*(166/2.2) = 6.036 mol glycogen. 6.036 mol * 162 g/mol gives 978 g glycogen -- a little over 2 lbs. I'm not sure if that "wet weight" is correct (I just used BW - maybe LBM is more appropriate) so I'll try again with a different approach:

[ QUOTE ]
Glycogen makes up about 1-2% of muscle weight and 6-10% of liver weight. Although the liver has a higher concentration of glycogen than muscle there is more glycogen stored in muscle tissue because muscle tissue is more abundant than liver tissue. The average person would store about 400 grams of glycogen in their muscles and 100 grams in their liver. Since 1 gram of carbohydrate contains 4 Calories, the body stores approximately 2000 Calories in the form of muscle and liver glycogen...

[/ QUOTE ]

http://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sports...mpensation.htm

So let's say I had 500 grams total glycogen, but was 80% depleted at the point of the test, so that's 400 grams difference.

[ QUOTE ]
every gram of glycogen is stored with approximately 3 grams of water

[/ QUOTE ]
13. Brooks G, Fahey T. Exercise Physiology. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co. 1984.

so 400 grams + 1200 g water = 1600 g mass difference. That's about 3.5 pounds -- so it's possible that in the last month I've lost 4 pounds fat while adding as much as 2.5 pounds LBM.

Does that sound about right?

Venom 11-11-2006 04:47 AM

Re: Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?
 
Good job, bro!

I think the most valid measurement, would be to test yourself in a similar condition as before. That will tease out the variability, best. But yeah, I have seen people who are on low carb diets, often be underestimated for muscle mass on body fat measurements.


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