Diet for obese vs. lean individuals - insulin sensitivity

[Venom]

I've been pondering this idea all day, and I wanted to run it by you guys, see what you think.

Ok, we all know that insulin can be a pretty powerful hormone to manipulate both for fat loss and muscle gain. So a lot of diets today focus on spiking insulin post workout, or carb cycling, etc.

But here is the thing: there is a lot of evidence that obese individuals are resistant to a lot of hormones and their effects on the body. Examples:

1. Insulin resistant
2. Leptin resistant
3. Blunted thermic response to food consumption (related to insulin resistance)

etc.

Now, there are a lot of bodybuilders who for one reason or another, allow themselves to get obese, or really out of shape. In this condition, I'd say they are probably in similar metabolic shape.

Either way, here is what I am wondering: for people like this, should our complete focus for the start of their diet be to work on improving their sensitivity to hormones?

Basically what I am thinking is that for these people, you would basically want to eliminate insulin and provide factors which improve metabolic abnormalities. Examples:

1. ALL carbs come from veggies or high fiber grains
2. No sugars - even post workout.
3. Healthy fats (omegas, mct oils, etc.)
4. higher protein diet
5. exercise

Now, once these metabolic abnormalities are corrected, then you can slowly start to implement things like sugars post workout, or carb up days periodically? My theory is that if you start of with sugar, or carb cycles, it is only going to exacerbate the abnormalities, because they are resistant to these hormones.

What do u think?

[Hammer]

Hi Gabe: You know how you were in a room of prayer tonight, each of you sharing, well I believe as the years pass in this group that the biggest field you will have to undertake is the subject you are asking about now. And in my heart this one says "pray"...........this needs much work and study, and many aids. You have lots of great helpers, so go for it. I have a doctor, who has lost 150lbs doing this, but all he can do so far is walk for exercise...........and he tells me I would not want to see his body. If he touches a piece of chocolate cake, he's afraid he might eat the whole cake. He's high protein and sugar free.........have a nice evening and I will leave it at that. Go for it, please. I think you will be surprised someday. May God Bless you on the way.

[Venom]

Thanks for the encouragement, Hammer! I definitely think this is a worthy cause, so I will continue to do the work!

[Commander]

I would think this approach would work well for someone like Lee Preist who I've seen pictures in the off season looking quite obese.

Venom, do you have a cut off point in mind in terms of bodyfat percentage?

very fat:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Y4APzJbm1_o/R72XfXvJ4WI/AAAAAAAAAOw/kKVssGF05K0/s1600/lee_priest_off_season01.jpg

pretty fat:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/muscle_con/trey.jpg

or someone like Layne Norton who only gets slightly fat.

[Venom]

First, I have never seen Layne fat. Dude always looks great.

I don't just think body fat could be a determinant, here. If you were bulking and eating alot of junk food, even if you are not technically obese, you still could have made your body pretty insensitive to various hormones.

I also think people that take drugs like Lee are in a whole other category.

[Commander]

First, I have never seen Layne fat. Dude always looks great.


Don't take that the wrong way. I don't think Layne looks fat either from the pictures/videos I have seen (like Inside the Life of Layne Norton), but I was just referring to the fact that obviously in the off season he carries way more fat than he would as he gets a couple months out from a contest.

Plus I was looking to find someone else for my "bodyfat spectrum", lol. :D

[Commander]

I don't just think body fat could be a determinant, here. If you were bulking and eating alot of junk food, even if you are not technically obese, you still could have made your body pretty insensitive to various hormones.


So those following a cleaner bulk would probably not have to worry about following your suggested protocol.

[Venom]

No, not at all. Clean bulkers are doing it right and should be fine...like Chris Fahs, Jeremy, and Ben. They never have metabolic abnormalities. I also think this may apply more to the endomorph than a meso or ectomorph.

[will-work4andro]

i definitely follow what you're saying...basically, the big time bulkers won't get the benefit from carb cycling because they have made themselves resistant to the very nutrient they are manipulating...so basically after a period of time...they would slowly reintroduce carbohydrate, very slowly...because after a prolonged period of time, one would become likely regain sensitivity especially with exercise...so if they stay consistent with the slow reintroduction...they could conceivably reverse the destruction they caused by becoming obese...sorry for the ramble, but that's how i think...Great thinking Gabe...did what i write, follow what you're saying?

[Venom]

Yup! Thanks for the input, J! I think that is my point: how can you manipulate hormones you are resistant to?

[will-work4andro]

Yup! Thanks for the input, J! I think that is my point: how can you manipulate hormones you are resistant to?

but yet so many will try...lol...i think the most important thing to keep in mind with the diet...is to NEVER make drastic changes...i never understand why people jump from one diet to the next anyway...it makes zero sense to me...i read it everyday...people saying, well i'll give high fat dieting a chance and they'll consume 50g of carbs for a couple months...then they'll say, well i'm going to increase my carbs back to 400g...what kind of response do they expect to get...my point...when changing diets...go slow...very slow

[Venom]

In that line of thought, J. I think if you train your body right, then all you need are minor adjustments. For example, if you make your body very sensitive to insulin, leptin, etc. Then you don't need to bump your carbs from 100 to 600! All you need is to bump them a little and you'll get the maximal response. In fact, that is the definition of insulin sensitivity - the amount of insulin required to get half the maximal response. If you require less, you are more sensitive.

[Hammer]

Your at that special age where you and your friends can pull this off........I thought about you all night.......so I'm hoping you do it. This could be something really big for a career. Oh, by the way have you ever run into this "word" : Laminin, laminin in your microscopes. I just google it and look at the pics. Can you see how the lady that was lost last night, might get a desire to pray, with that inside. "I will never leave you or forsake you"............quite something. Have a nice day all.

[Commander]

Your at that special age where you and your friends can pull this off........I thought about you all night.......so I'm hoping you do it. This could be something really big for a career. Oh, by the way have you ever run into this "word" : Laminin, laminin in your microscopes. I just google it and look at the pics. Can you see how the lady that was lost last night, might get a desire to pray, with that inside. "I will never leave you or forsake you"............quite something. Have a nice day all.

what does this mean?

[will-work4andro]

what does this mean?

i was wondering the same thing

[klosey]

Your at that special age where you and your friends can pull this off........I thought about you all night.......so I'm hoping you do it. This could be something really big for a career. Oh, by the way have you ever run into this "word" : Laminin, laminin in your microscopes. I just google it and look at the pics. Can you see how the lady that was lost last night, might get a desire to pray, with that inside. "I will never leave you or forsake you"............quite something. Have a nice day all.

Hammer i have asked you now on two occasions (and issued infractions) not to spam post and keep the conversations on track, therefore i have no alternative to temp-ban. my email address is at bottom if you wish to discuss this

[Ben2285]

I really like your train of thought here Gabe. I have seen numerous recent studies on type 2 diabetics showing that those that can adhere a lower carb or even keto style diet can reduce or even stop their need of insulin. Obviously this is displaying an enormous increase in sensitivity to the hormone. And also as you pointed out, as someone heads more toward the "endomorph" phenotype or has increasting central adiposity, insulin sensitivity decreases.

Not to get off topic, but I really think you opened a can of worms here because this is really where I see or feel the USDA guidelines should be heading. The average person is still pushed for 45-65% of their calories from carbohydrate each day, with our average activity levels and metabolic profiles as a society I think these recommendations are obscene.

Now back to my previous train of thought hah.... I like your attack plan for the problem, I totally agree that increasing sensitivity to these hormones should be top priority. In my perspective the plan for an overweight bodybuilder/athlete and just a normal overweight person though would differ dramatically since there are many other confounding factors involved. (for example a bodybuilder would likely be driven, therefore would be more apt to deal with food cravings, the average individual may need keto (since satiety is usually greater) to stay on track).

The only thing I think I would add would be nutrigenomic aides like ALA, cinnamon, maybe a few others as they can have a pretty profound effect on insulin sensitivity (especially ALA).

I feel like I could have wrote for days on this but I know there will be great responses for me to reply to hah so I'll stop here

[Ratcat]

I have a group of friends who are obese and I reckon every one of them is addicted to sugar. Plain and simple as that. If there was some way to block that sugar addiction their bodies would change. But like a drug addict they will do anything for a feed of sugar. :(

[will-work4andro]

i must add to Ben's post...since i love my HSP's...alpha lipoic acid has recently been show to increase HSP's in skeletal muscle of the obese, thus how it may help with insulin sensitivity...had to give the shoutout

[Venom]

YOU ARE KIDDING ME!!! I am in a rush, so can't respond much, but that is awesome research, Jer!!

[will-work4andro]

YOU ARE KIDDING ME!!! I am in a rush, so can't respond much, but that is awesome research, Jer!!


J Appl Physiol 106: 1425-1434, 2009


The antioxidant {alpha}-lipoic acid (LA) has been shown to improve insulin action in high-fat (HF)-fed animal models, yet little is known about its underlying mechanisms of action. We hypothesize that LA acts by inducing heat shock proteins (HSPs), which then inhibit stress kinases known to interfere with insulin signaling intermediates. Male Wistar rats were fed a HF diet (60% calories from fat) for 6 wk, while controls received a chow diet (10% calories from fat). One-half of the rats in each group received daily LA injections (30 mg/kg body wt). In rats fed a HF diet, LA increased expression of HSP72 and activation of HSP25 in soleus muscle, but it had no effect on HSPs in muscle from chow-fed rats. LA treatment reduced phosphorylation of c-Jun NH2-terminal kinase (JNK) and inhibitor of {kappa}B kinase-β (IKKβ) activity (I{kappa}B{alpha} protein levels) in rats fed a HF diet and effectively restored insulin responsiveness, as seen by insulin-stimulated phosphorylated Akt/Akt and 2-deoxyglucose uptake in soleus muscle. LA also induced activation of p38 MAPK and AMP-activated protein kinase, proteins previously implicated in insulin-independent glucose uptake. In addition, acute LA treatment induced HSPs in vitro in L6 muscle cells and prevented the activation of JNK and IKKβ with stimulants such as anisomycin and TNF-{alpha}, respectively. In conclusion, our results suggest chronic LA treatment results in stress kinase inhibition and improved insulin signaling through a HSP-mediated mechanism.

[Venom]

Thanks for the feedback Ben - much valued.

I definitely like the insulin sensitizing agents like ALA and cinnamon. These agents are actually most potent in these pops where oxidative stress and metabolic abnormalities are so high. So totally agree with that.

Pretty excited about this idea...I think we may be on to something here. This is why I love science!!

[Ben2285]

J Appl Physiol 106: 1425-1434, 2009


The antioxidant {alpha}-lipoic acid (LA) has been shown to improve insulin action in high-fat (HF)-fed animal models, yet little is known about its underlying mechanisms of action. We hypothesize that LA acts by inducing heat shock proteins (HSPs), which then inhibit stress kinases known to interfere with insulin signaling intermediates. Male Wistar rats were fed a HF diet (60% calories from fat) for 6 wk, while controls received a chow diet (10% calories from fat). One-half of the rats in each group received daily LA injections (30 mg/kg body wt). In rats fed a HF diet, LA increased expression of HSP72 and activation of HSP25 in soleus muscle, but it had no effect on HSPs in muscle from chow-fed rats. LA treatment reduced phosphorylation of c-Jun NH2-terminal kinase (JNK) and inhibitor of {kappa}B kinase-β (IKKβ) activity (I{kappa}B{alpha} protein levels) in rats fed a HF diet and effectively restored insulin responsiveness, as seen by insulin-stimulated phosphorylated Akt/Akt and 2-deoxyglucose uptake in soleus muscle. LA also induced activation of p38 MAPK and AMP-activated protein kinase, proteins previously implicated in insulin-independent glucose uptake. In addition, acute LA treatment induced HSPs in vitro in L6 muscle cells and prevented the activation of JNK and IKKβ with stimulants such as anisomycin and TNF-{alpha}, respectively. In conclusion, our results suggest chronic LA treatment results in stress kinase inhibition and improved insulin signaling through a HSP-mediated mechanism.

****! Crazy stuff, thanks jer

[Ben2285]

Thanks for the feedback Ben - much valued.

I definitely like the insulin sensitizing agents like ALA and cinnamon. These agents are actually most potent in these pops where oxidative stress and metabolic abnormalities are so high. So totally agree with that.

Pretty excited about this idea...I think we may be on to something here. This is why I love science!!

My pleasure..
Exactly Gabe!

[President Wilson]

Just from personal experience I find that I am much more sensitive to carbs when I am leaner (< 10 %) than in my upper range of bodyfat (12 %).

I agree with you Gabe. One of the things I really want to write about on abc is insulin, insulin resistance, bulking etc. Literally break this subject down like we have done for protein. This has been on my mind for years now. And I think we have the scientific prowess on our site to team up and get this job done.

[President Wilson]

Thanks for those insight Jer and Ben! You guys kick behind.

I am going to take my ALA now :-P

[Ben2285]

Just from personal experience I find that I am much more sensitive to carbs when I am leaner (< 10 %) than in my upper range of bodyfat (12 %).

I agree with you Gabe. One of the things I really want to write about on abc is insulin, insulin resistance, bulking etc. Literally break this subject down like we have done for protein. This has been on my mind for years now. And I think we have the scientific prowess on our site to team up and get this job done.

I am certainly in for that challenge!

Thanks for those insight Jer and Ben! You guys kick behind.

I am going to take my ALA now :-P

No prob! hah ALA is the bomb :D

[DaveLin]

In that line of thought, J. I think if you train your body right, then all you need are minor adjustments. For example, if you make your body very sensitive to insulin, leptin, etc. Then you don't need to bump your carbs from 100 to 600! All you need is to bump them a little and you'll get the maximal response. In fact, that is the definition of insulin sensitivity - the amount of insulin required to get half the maximal response. If you require less, you are more sensitive.

but venom, isn't going over caloric maintenance still the fundamental rule you must follow in order to gain muscle? and if you are very insulin sensitive, then techincally you will secrete LESS insulin per meal, so you have less of that anabolic hormone, and overtime less insulin = less igf-1, which is something I read elsewhere saying insulin and igf-1 directly related.

for being lean all of it seems to make sense, less insulin more of the other hormone (was it glucagon?) but for gaining I think we run into the problem of not having enough calories and potentially stifling the insulin response. I think that's why bottom line odds are no matter how clean you bulk you will still get fat?

[Venom]

Absolutely, being in a caloric surplus is important for getting huge. This post was centered on people cutting, though.

About insulin sensitivity, more insulin does not = more effective response from insulin. Obese get constant supplies of insulin in the blood. But studies show they are actually less anabolic, and don't stimulate muscle protein synthesis as potently in response to a meal as lean people. Why? One reason is because they are insensitive to anabolic factors like insulin.

The point of insulin sensitivity, is that you require less insulin to get a maximal response - so with half the amount of insulin, a lean person can dispose of the same amount of glucose as an overweight person (just threw out a general number there). Same thing applies for anabolic factors like IGF.

So insulin sensitivity is a good thing...

[klosey]

this interests me, a question. if someone is obese they are carrying alot of fat so their maintence calories for the muscle mass they hold is lower than total calores they would need to stay same weight, does this mean obese people fall into a half and half catagory where they can when dieting, get a surplus of calories high enough to build muscle mass but lower than their 'total' weight maintence calorie needs and losefat at the same time?

[Venom]

That's a newbie effect, I don't see that having to do with being obese or not. Bodybuilders who are obese for instance probably would not get that effect.

[klosey]

That's a newbie effect, I don't see that having to do with being obese or not. Bodybuilders who are obese for instance probably would not get that effect.

ok man, i was going by the idea of someone who is obese, their body would already be 'primed' for holding weight compared to someone who starts as skinny

[wordlife]

Excellent topic, Gabe

I'm actually the exact same person this post is about. I train quite hard and diet hard as well but whenever I allow myself to refrain from dieting and training I get seriously out of shape!! I gain alot of fat, ALOT, and lose alot of muscle mass!!

It was funny when I wasn't familiar with my body, I started my cut cycle by increasing my carbs and decreasing my fats, only to notice im getting fatter:D

Then by experimenting I understood how it works and i can tell from personal experience that the plan of attack that Venom gave is awesome... although I'd say that a little bit, just a little bit of good carbs in the earlier times of the day can't be of much harm...

But again i think although we are ****ed by this nature of body ... i think it still has its pros. I think we lose fat quite fast...following an extremely low carb diet I went down from 220 lbs to 190 in no more than two months!!

Now although I know this is about cutting but I think how to add muscle for this type of bodybuilders is also a very important aspect.

IMO our holy grail of bodybuilding is optimizing adding muscle and losing fat at the same time without minimizing both of them! Which i felt is possible for my body i dont know if its everyone like me or its just me...

I know my point of view is away from what is indeed proven but i cant push away those set of thoughts that i decided to give this a shot for a month...

I'm thinking that through a low carb/high protein/high fat diet, I'm able to lose fat due to the low carb intake, and increase muscle mass due to the high protein intake, while fats and other supplements can be optimized for energy. I'm hoping, well not hoping im dreaming that i can gain muscle just like i do on bulks, and lose fat just like i do on cuts by taking the best of both worlds ... as opposed to adding muscle and alot of fats on bulk and losing fats and alot of muscles on cuts! Well yes thats what happens with me whatever i do!

I dont know I just feel this working:D I'm making an online order of whey, bcaa's, creatine, beta-alanine, citrulline, mct oil and omegas... I think these maybe very helpful and I'll be starting this kind of diet with very intense bulk type training and I'm looking to see how it works.

I know i'll be critiqued that this cant work but hell who's gonna lose we need to try to know what works!!!

I'll keep u guys updated!

[Venom]

Awesome man! I hope you keep a journal on here so we can see exactly what you are doing and track your progress. Sups you are taking are all winners so I don't see why it would not work...good luck.

On the getting huge and cut at the same time...I definitely agree it should not be an extreme where you get obese on bulks and lose tons of muscle on cuts. But at the same time, I think it is a huge victory if you maintain or slightly improve your muscle on a cut. Or only gain a few pounds of fat on a bulk. Gaining lots of muscle on a cut? I don't know...I think it may be asking to much. Same thing with getting cut on a bulk.

[wordlife]

Thanks for the encouragement, Gabe. I'll be posting my plans for diet and workout for critique soon, and as soon as I start it out I hope I'll be able to track my progress in a journal although I think that's my worst part:D

I think I'll look for the impossible during this cycle. I'll do my best to optimize fat loss and muscle gain...I'll sure need your critique and everybody's as well. I hope this goes how I'm hoping it will, we might be into something.

[Calvin]

Has anything come out of this recently? I'd be very interested in finding out, because I think I am very insulin resistant-- I can pack on belly fat very quickly (currently 210lbs, 21%BF). I had a lot of success about 2 years ago doing the anabolic diet (journal was on here somewhere). I'm overseas again and hitting it hard, and I'm trying the anabolic diet again-- maybe it works for me since I'm more insulin resistent?

I'm looking at doing malto/dextrose in the PWO shake, because I think I might be able to take advantage of the insulin response most people get on a normal diet-the only carbs I have during the week are found in brocoli and fibrous veggies, so that one hit of "sugar" might get my body to respond correctly??

Anyway, Looking forward to any progress!

[wordlife]

Has anything come out of this recently? I'd be very interested in finding out, because I think I am very insulin resistant-- I can pack on belly fat very quickly (currently 210lbs, 21%BF). I had a lot of success about 2 years ago doing the anabolic diet (journal was on here somewhere). I'm overseas again and hitting it hard, and I'm trying the anabolic diet again-- maybe it works for me since I'm more insulin resistent?

I'm looking at doing malto/dextrose in the PWO shake, because I think I might be able to take advantage of the insulin response most people get on a normal diet-the only carbs I have during the week are found in brocoli and fibrous veggies, so that one hit of "sugar" might get my body to respond correctly??

Anyway, Looking forward to any progress!

I'm trying to put together a plan combining many ideas I've had. I'll start in one week as soon as I get it done and get my supplements. I'll try making a log here so watch for it =)

[Calvin]

I'm trying to put together a plan combining many ideas I've had. I'll start in one week as soon as I get it done and get my supplements. I'll try making a log here so watch for it =)

Sounds good. Maybe I should start logging. I'm doing the anabolic diet witha twist. Pre-workout BCAA's with 12 grams malto/dextrose; post workout 12 more grams with Whey. We'll see how it works. I'm still trying to keep within the <30g per day.