Train Hard, Recover Harder

[klosey]

interesting snippet from a christian thibaudeau article

Train Hard, Recover Harder

I've said it time and time again: The more you train without exceeding your capacity to recover, the more you'll grow and the stronger you'll get.

I'll go one step further and say that most people don't train hard enough to progress past the beginning of the intermediate stage. When they first start, they gain because any training represents a drastic increase compared to the hole they were wearing through the couch. But as soon as they get past the beginner stage, gains become exceedingly rare because now that their body is used to physical stress, it takes a lot more of it to force adaptation.

One of the reasons why these people fail to train hard enough to stimulate gains is out fear of overtraining (which is often just a justification for laziness).

Well, let me tell you this: True overtraining is exceptionally rare. In all my life as an athlete and coach, I've only seen two real cases of overtraining, and in both the guys were Olympians training over 30 hours per week under tremendous psychological stress.

In reality, most elite athletes train over 20 hours per week, with some even hitting the 40-hour mark. Not all of this is strength training; speed and agility work, conditioning, and skill practices are also on the menu.

Before you throw the doping argument in my face, I've seen a ton of young athletes who were obviously not on drugs follow that type of schedule. I've worked as the head strength coach of a sports academy where kids ranging from 12 to 18 would go to school from 8:30 am to 12:00 pm, then train or practice from 1:00 to 5:00 pm every day. Their programs included daily strength work, agility training, and practices cumulating over 20 hours per week. None of them were overtraining; all of them progressed quite well.

Similarly, most high-level Olympic lifters train for three hours per day spread over two or three daily sessions. Heck, Canadian National team member Marilou Dozois-Prévost engaged in two sessions daily, each lasting two hours, and would often extend these to do additional jumping or gymnastic work... when she was 14!

The benefits of youth? Maybe.

But how do you explain the case of Marcel Perron, who at 68, would lift for two hours in the morning, sprint for 30 minutes before lunch, and train for two more hours in the evening? His partner, Emery Chevrier, who power cleaned 285 and power snatched 225 pounds at a bodyweight of 170 when he was 70, would do the same minus the sprints.

And on the practical side, I've known quite a few farmers who chugged along for eight hours straight day after day, doing work that'd bury the most hardcore gym enthusiasts, without overtraining.

The problem is that most people lack the recovery capacity and don't take the necessary means to recover properly.

The Barbarian Brothers, two of the hardest training bodybuilders mankind has ever known, said that there was no such thing as overtraining, only undereating.


While not 100% accurate, they have the gist of it. Most people who think they're overtraining are simply under-recovering. While you can't make your body invincible to overtraining by pigging out, undereating, and especially undernourishment, can drastically reduce your capacity to recover.


full article

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/4_hot_topics_from_the_beast

[ZachE84]

Cool article thanks!

I agree, the only time I've ever "over trained" was in relation to cardio when I was running so much a day that I got a type 2 sprain of both my MCL's :(

[T-DOG]

So you guys buy and taking the suppliment they advertized for recovery?

[ZachE84]

So you guys buy and taking the suppliment they advertized for recovery?

Definitely not.

[klosey]

So you guys buy and taking the suppliment they advertized for recovery?

no way, my interest in this article is the underlinning of the fact that almost no body will ever reach overtraining

[Achillesreborn]

wow this guy has no idea what he is talking about...scary :(

[klosey]

wow this guy has no idea what he is talking about...scary :(

chris is one of best in bodybuilding, eleberate bro

[Achillesreborn]

There's too much to elaborate on but one is that the exercise science community agrees that the majority of bodybuilders are way overtrained and this guy "tries" to debunk these facts, when really he proves that they are overtrained... I can't believe he's one of the "best"...yikes.

[klosey]

There's too much to elaborate on but one is that the exercise science community agrees that the majority of bodybuilders are way overtrained and this guy "tries" to debunk these facts, when really he proves that they are overtrained... I can't believe he's one of the "best"...yikes.

personally i have always said when someone says to me 'i think i'm overtraining' i usually say no your not. unless they are training 3-5 sessions daily then they are no where near overtrained, i have tested the theory on accasion and done deadlift 3 sets of 3 rpm max once an hour 6 sessions and it wasnt untill last session that strength went way down. too many do use overtraining as an excuse for poor diet.

[ZachE84]

My thought is if you body does not tell you to stop (IE: stress injury, overuse injury, etc) then you aren't over training.

[Commander]

wow this guy has no idea what he is talking about...scary :(

huh?

chris is one of best in bodybuilding, eleberate bro

while I don't know about "one of the best", I do always enjoy his articles and feel he delivers some very good information with a body to back it up. :)

[klosey]

huh?



while I don't know about "one of the best", I do always enjoy his articles and feel he delivers some very good information with a body to back it up. :)

i mean at writting articles not in a literal glass charles way

[T-DOG]

Ok, I do chest and tri's Monday, legs and shoulders Wednesday, and back and bi's Friday.....so your saying I could do chest and tri's Monday and Thursday, legs and shoulders Tuesday and Friday, and back and bi's Wednesday and Saturday and not over train??? Basically 2 body parts a day 2 times per week with only one days rest on Sunday and make gains without over training form it???

[Achillesreborn]

My thought is if you body does not tell you to stop (IE: stress injury, overuse injury, etc) then you aren't over training.

So you're willing to wait until you're injured before you rest?

[MslAdct83]

If I push myself too hard (usually too high of volume) I get sick and I eat like a horse and my diet is tight! That's why I tend to follow high intensity style lifting protocols. Maximum muscular damage in the shortest amount of time. Get in, get it done, get out. Following this protocol has allowed me to continue to gain 10 lbs a year for seven years.

[Achillesreborn]

If I push myself too hard (usually too high of volume) I get sick and I eat like a horse and my diet is tight! That's why I tend to follow high intensity style lifting protocols. Maximum muscular damage in the shortest amount of time. Get in, get it done, get out. Following this protocol has allowed me to continue to gain 10 lbs a year for seven years.

Absolutely 100% agree!!! Anyone who says HIT is easy or that it's for lazy people has never tried TRUE HIT! It's exhausting :D

[klosey]

Absolutely 100% agree!!! Anyone who says HIT is easy or that it's for lazy people has never tried TRUE HIT! It's exhausting :D

tried it but the lack of gym time makes me end up changing it so i do 2 sessions a day. :D i enjoy training

[klosey]

Ok, I do chest and tri's Monday, legs and shoulders Wednesday, and back and bi's Friday.....so your saying I could do chest and tri's Monday and Thursday, legs and shoulders Tuesday and Friday, and back and bi's Wednesday and Saturday and not over train??? Basically 2 body parts a day 2 times per week with only one days rest on Sunday and make gains without over training form it???

yes, some people train twice a day year in year out...but its also conditioning that effects this. someone who normal trains 3 days a week going to do 10 times a week would overtrain as the body wouldnt adapt, however adding a session or two a week extra after 6 month or so would not cause the body to have to adapt so radically.

i would suggest staying with what works though and not change it up for the sake of it

[Achillesreborn]

tried it but the lack of gym time makes me end up changing it so i do 2 sessions a day. :D i enjoy training

I totally understand where you're coming from. I love being in the gym everyday and at one point in my training career I was going to the gym 6 days a week for nearly 2 hours a day and sometimes twice a day (following Arnold's routine from the "Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding") and I didn't "feel" evertrained. What did end up happening is I lost some strength, muscle started to deteriorate, and I found it nearly impossible to gain an extra pound because I was burning so many calories in the gym so I had to stuff my face.

I did manage to get great results on this type of program going from 126 lbs in 2004 to 195 lbs last summer 2008. My arms even measured in at 17 1/4 at 5'10". I wouldn't say I have "freak" genetics but I do think I have fairly decent genetics but even that much training was too much. Overtraining is defined as training to such an extent that the BODY doesn't have time to fully recover and so a slow-down or cessation of one's progress occurs and a period of rest is needed (usually prescribed as 1-2 weeks off from the gym).

HIT definitely feels like you stimulate way more muscle fiber, especially when you conduct every exercise with a 4-2-4 tempo, "It's Extreme" - Harold & Kumar (Extreme Punk).

[MslAdct83]

I started just like you, but stumbled upon high intensity do to necessity. I still wanted to train hard and make good consistent gains, but I needed more time for school. I'm glad I made the switch. I used to get sick (as I said before), and gains in strength/mass were more difficult for me to come by as well. At 5'7" I've gone from 135lbs to 215. I've got about three more months before I start butting again and I'd like to be at least 225 before. I wouldn't say I keep myself tight, but I'm definitely not letting myself go. Last summer I would have competed somewhere around 180, by the way things are going I'm looking at 190. Should be awesome!

[Achillesreborn]

I started just like you, but stumbled upon high intensity do to necessity. I still wanted to train hard and make good consistent gains, but I needed more time for school. I'm glad I made the switch. I used to get sick (as I said before), and gains in strength/mass were more difficult for me to come by as well. At 5'7" I've gone from 135lbs to 215. I've got about three more months before I start butting again and I'd like to be at least 225 before. I wouldn't say I keep myself tight, but I'm definitely not letting myself go. Last summer I would have competed somewhere around 180, by the way things are going I'm looking at 190. Should be awesome!

Congrats! That's my goal at 5'10"

[los705]

i agree with the article..i used to undertrain and had a mediocre body , now i have been training 6 days a week sometimes i go back for hit or tabata in the pm and ive never had better results. I plan on keeping this up just changing routines every 4-6 weeks

[REA_Greece]

I have training every morning, before job, Monday to Friday. Sometimes, I have additional training in the afternoon, but also in Saturday afternoon. During week-end, In the morning, I have cardio exercises. I never felt “overtrained”.
My best fried has training every day, Monday to Saturday 2 times per day. She has perfect body, like figure model, but also she has beautiful face. She has two children (twins) but her body is super.
I agree that “overtraining” is an excuse for lazy people…

[Achillesreborn]

I have training every morning, before job, Monday to Friday. Sometimes, I have additional training in the afternoon, but also in Saturday afternoon. During week-end, In the morning, I have cardio exercises. I never felt “overtrained”.
My best fried has training every day, Monday to Saturday 2 times per day. She has perfect body, like figure model, but also she has beautiful face. She has two children (twins) but her body is super.
I agree that “overtraining” is an excuse for lazy people…


"Overtraining" is a term that is thrown around loosely these days, and some do use it as an excuse but overtraining is defined as any training stimulus that has exceeded what is required. Many bodybuilders are overtrained but don't know it. Why do you think every training protocol created nowadays usually has the trainee take 4-7 days off before starting the routine and then another 4-7 days off after 4-8 weeks after the routine is over. The answer...overtraining will result if the routine is continued after this point.

From personal experience I have been overtrained before when I did the double-split system 6 days a week and I have over-average genetics for gaining muscle tissue. I reached a plateau and began losing strength, and also developed a severe cold that lasted nearly two months because I "worked through it." I think the theory that there is no such thing as "overtraining" is used by people who don't know what highly intense training is!

[klosey]

I think the theory that there is no such thing as "overtraining" is used by people who don't know what highly intense training is!

i am happy to say it, 999999 out of 1000000 it is not how heavy or how intense people lift that makes them reach 'overtraining' its their diet, their rest and supplement use, bulgarian weightlifters for the 1990 commonwelth games spent 6 hours a day weightlifting one of their lifters ivan.. (cant remember last name will find it later) was in his 30's and followed this style for over a decade, they had teens training to this style who had no previous lifting experience and they are still around now, Ivan came out of his dressing room and lifted enough weight for the gold medal without a warm up. The coaches said it was due to the training which meant his body was so used to hard lifting and had adequate rest and calories to full it this guy can do 1rm straight from cold, where i do agree HIIT is hard and DC is just as hard i don't think the training is what ***ks most people up its a laziness to complete the cycle and ensure they eat and rest properly

[taylorryan]

wow this guy has no idea what he is talking about...scary :(

Mike Mentzer.... Goodness gracious... Im sorry, not tryin to make waves, but Mentzer was WWAAAYYYY off at how much stress the body could handle and recover from. I do HIT myself, and i own two of his books, but dang.... Honestly, Im not too sure if he actually recognized the difference in overtraining and undertraining, truthfully...

I mean, two sets, once every eight days? WTF!?!?!? why even bother...

[taylorryan]

"Overtraining" is a term that is thrown around loosely these days, and some do use it as an excuse but overtraining is defined as any training stimulus that has exceeded what is required. Many bodybuilders are overtrained but don't know it. Why do you think every training protocol created nowadays usually has the trainee take 4-7 days off before starting the routine and then another 4-7 days off after 4-8 weeks after the routine is over. The answer...overtraining will result if the routine is continued after this point.

From personal experience I have been overtrained before when I did the double-split system 6 days a week and I have over-average genetics for gaining muscle tissue. I reached a plateau and began losing strength, and also developed a severe cold that lasted nearly two months because I "worked through it." I think the theory that there is no such thing as "overtraining" is used by people who don't know what highly intense training is!


a double split, 6 day program... Of course you were overtrained. You probably COULDN"T train hard enough anyways. I coudln't when i did that.

Naw, G, back before i 'knew about' HIT officially, i gravitated toward it myself. I went from training each muscle once a week for like sixteen sets, to about three supersets, twice a week. Just listening to my body. Thing is though, instinctively i increased the intensity of each ss so high, i wonder if i was even strong enough to stimulate anything the third ss. Either way, thats what i did. I went from about 165 to 185 in probably, oh, 6 weeks. I ate like a freakin horse, though...

Then, when i found out about HIT, i tried doing twice a week, full body routines, 8 sets total. Wanna know what happened? it took me about two months to gain three pounds. sigh...

Wanna know what i do now? i still do FB routines (fell in love) but i do two sets of 12 exercises. or 24 sets total, three times a week. Cardio on off days. Thats enough to make a typical full body guy FLIP THE F OUT!!!!!!!!

My point was, my growth wasn't slowed by overtraining.. Quite the opposite actually.

[Achillesreborn]

a double split, 6 day program... Of course you were overtrained. You probably COULDN"T train hard enough anyways. I coudln't when i did that.

Naw, G, back before i 'knew about' HIT officially, i gravitated toward it myself. I went from training each muscle once a week for like sixteen sets, to about three supersets, twice a week. Just listening to my body. Thing is though, instinctively i increased the intensity of each ss so high, i wonder if i was even strong enough to stimulate anything the third ss. Either way, thats what i did. I went from about 165 to 185 in probably, oh, 6 weeks. I ate like a freakin horse, though...

Then, when i found out about HIT, i tried doing twice a week, full body routines, 8 sets total. Wanna know what happened? it took me about two months to gain three pounds. sigh...

Wanna know what i do now? i still do FB routines (fell in love) but i do two sets of 12 exercises. or 24 sets total, three times a week. Cardio on off days. Thats enough to make a typical full body guy FLIP THE F OUT!!!!!!!!

My point was, my growth wasn't slowed by overtraining.. Quite the opposite actually.


Out of curiosity, do you find you cant work all your muscles to their maximum when doing a FB routine? The reason I ask is because it occurred to me that a type of pre-exhaust would be used in such a routine...although that might stimulate more fibers.

[taylorryan]

Out of curiosity, do you find you cant work all your muscles to their maximum when doing a FB routine? The reason I ask is because it occurred to me that a type of pre-exhaust would be used in such a routine...although that might stimulate more fibers.

Um, honestly at first i couldn't. I would be done legs and back and wanna freakin die...

I have to do pre-exhaust, to hit the low volume like i do (i meant per body part not total) or ill have to train more.

ok ok this is what i do.... remember i do two sets of everything

Leg press ss
squats

SLDL

Calf raise (one leg is my favorite cuz of the forced reps you can do)

Stiff Arm PUlldowns ss
Chin ups, alternating with close grip rows

DB flys ss
Dips, alternating with SMith incline presses

Laterals ss
Push press, alternating with upright rows

EZ curls alternating with hammer curls
Skull crushers alternating with reverse grip pulldowns

I don't do direct ab work. Believe it or not, my abs are still kinda bulky, and everytime i do train abs, i get stretch marks. From one workout.

This routine takes about an hour. Little less usually...

[Achillesreborn]

Um, honestly at first i couldn't. I would be done legs and back and wanna freakin die...

I have to do pre-exhaust, to hit the low volume like i do (i meant per body part not total) or ill have to train more.

ok ok this is what i do.... remember i do two sets of everything

Leg press ss
squats

SLDL

Calf raise (one leg is my favorite cuz of the forced reps you can do)

Stiff Arm PUlldowns ss
Chin ups, alternating with close grip rows

DB flys ss
Dips, alternating with SMith incline presses

Laterals ss
Push press, alternating with upright rows

EZ curls alternating with hammer curls
Skull crushers alternating with reverse grip pulldowns

I don't do direct ab work. Believe it or not, my abs are still kinda bulky, and everytime i do train abs, i get stretch marks. From one workout.

This routine takes about an hour. Little less usually...



So almost like a form of HD?

[taylorryan]

So almost like a form of HD?

Yeah, it actually is an old HD of mike mentzer. I like his old stuff, thats when i think (at least for me)his stuff was golden.

I like the one set principle, i just have a hard time gaining from it like i want to. (i gain from it, i just gain faster doing two sets).

[will-work4andro]

my 2 cents...overtraining is very real in my opinion...i agree it doesn't happen very often with resistance training, but it certainly CAN happen...the point about bulgarian weightlifters working out for 6 hours a day...honestly they are probably not even completing 1 minute of actual work that entire 6 hours, most of it is rest...the you can't overtrain, you can undereat...not true either, especially with aerobic exercise...a lot of those guys are taking in tons of calories, but can still be overtrained...overtraining is simply "a decrease in performance" without adequate rest by manipulating sets/reps/weight...you can run the risk of overtraining regardless of the amount of food you eat. does it happen very often with resistance training, no, can it...yes...good discussion so far

[klosey]

my 2 cents...overtraining is very real in my opinion...i agree it doesn't happen very often with resistance training, but it certainly CAN happen...the point about bulgarian weightlifters working out for 6 hours a day...honestly they are probably not even completing 1 minute of actual work that entire 6 hours, most of it is rest...the you can't overtrain, you can undereat...not true either, especially with aerobic exercise...a lot of those guys are taking in tons of calories, but can still be overtrained...overtraining is simply "a decrease in performance" without adequate rest by manipulating sets/reps/weight...you can run the risk of overtraining regardless of the amount of food you eat. does it happen very often with resistance training, no, can it...yes...good discussion so far

while i agree it can happen yes but with how the bodybuilding 'guru's of the world talk about overtraining at the moment i'd be happier with 1% actually overtraining and not knowing that 80% undertraining because they were told its overtraining

[will-work4andro]

while i agree it can happen yes but with how the bodybuilding 'guru's of the world talk about overtraining at the moment i'd be happier with 1% actually overtraining and not knowing that 80% undertraining because they were told its overtraining

agree with that point 100%...because most guru's don't understand what overtraining is

[Achillesreborn]

my 2 cents...overtraining is very real in my opinion...i agree it doesn't happen very often with resistance training, but it certainly CAN happen...the point about bulgarian weightlifters working out for 6 hours a day...honestly they are probably not even completing 1 minute of actual work that entire 6 hours, most of it is rest...the you can't overtrain, you can undereat...not true either, especially with aerobic exercise...a lot of those guys are taking in tons of calories, but can still be overtrained...overtraining is simply "a decrease in performance" without adequate rest by manipulating sets/reps/weight...you can run the risk of overtraining regardless of the amount of food you eat. does it happen very often with resistance training, no, can it...yes...good discussion so far


Absolutely agree

[taylorryan]

What do you guys think? How much does your cardio help you to recover, in your opinion?

I just thought that it is interesting. I notice not much recovery difference with regular cardio, but if i swim... Whole other story, nah mean?!? I am ready after that!

[klosey]

depends on the cardio, cardio still uses the muscle but in a non destructive manor so its still pulling in nutrients