HOT TUBS and HEAT SHOCK

[will-work4andro]

i was just sitting here...pondering the HSP...we know that Heat Shock Proteins mayhelp attentuate atrophy....so would it be advantageous to sit in a hot tub during a deload or injury to induce HSP's? HSP's have also been shown to protect against diet-induced hyperglycemia, hyperinsulemia, glucose intolerance, and insulin resistance. I might start including this into my exercise program

any thoughts?

[Commander]

I had never heard of this. (Although, I am not on the cutting edge, ha, ha!) But reading your post got me curious, so I found this site.

http://bodybuilding-muscle.blogspot.com/2007/07/25-ways-to-improve-your-workouts.html

24. Relax in a sauna or hot tub every day

>> Japanese researchers reported that rats exposed to a heat chamber set at 105 degrees F for two weeks increased muscle mass by 13% compared to those that weren't exposed to the heat. They concluded the results are likely due to the effect of heat shock proteins (specific proteins in the body that get released when exposed to heat) on cellular mechanisms of muscle growth.

And I thought this was neat. Another way to induce these proteins, if you found a way to do it properly it would be beneficial on a cut.

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=1390&StartRow=1

Even so, calorie restriction fosters decreased cellular oxidation, particularly in the portion of the cell that produces energy (mitochondria); induction of 'heat shock proteins' that protect cells from destruction; and insulin control.

Sounds worthy of trying your method, because hey, who doesn't want to relax in a hot tub anyway?

[Algavinn]

Aye, if nothing else after I finish in the gym I use the pool for 10 minutes, hottub for 10, and I feel so relaxed and not as bone tired as I can some times. Definitely an interesting idea!

[will-work4andro]

exercise itself induces HSP...so in times of inactivity it may in theory become advantageous...perhaps another recovery tool...the problem one might run into is getting the muscle hot enough to express HSP's...i believe the don't get expressed until 41 degrees...i still think there might be something to this...we'll see what Venom and the Prez think....

[Ratcat]

In an ideal world I would have a hot bath every weekend. I feel it helps heal battered muscles. :)

[President Wilson]

I think its genius Andro! This is the type of stuff that can give bodybuilders that extra edge in activating anabolic pathways. I love thoughts like this and your work on occlusion because as hard as we train, we need additional methods that do not break us down further, yet still promote hypertrophy.

I am going to institute this myself!

[will-work4andro]

I think its genius Andro! This is the type of stuff that can give bodybuilders that extra edge in activating anabolic pathways. I love thoughts like this and your work on occlusion because as hard as we train, we need additional methods that do not break us down further, yet still promote hypertrophy.

I am going to institute this myself!

when do you think would be the best to add it in...on off days, such as cardio days

[Ratcat]

Popular folklore says that Epsom Salts added to a bath aids relaxing muscles.
Also Bicarb Soda, but I've not tried it. I'll give it a go and give some feedback. :)

[President Wilson]

when do you think would be the best to add it in...on off days, such as cardio days

Off days would be great. One thing i am thinking is when proteins are most susceptable to unnecessary breakdown. After exercise just by the nature of the acidic environment proteins which were not damaged may be unfolded and then tagged by the Ubiquitin system and degraded unnecessarily. Since heat shock proteins refold proteins it may be advantageous to include HOT baths on days where you really obliterate your muscles to the point where you know you shocked them to the point where you r going to have a hard time moving the trained body part the next day. Its in these situations where I think you may be in danger to degrade proteins unnecessarily. So during those time, and on off days, deloading, and injury would be perfect

I'm also curious if the frequency of this should increase during periods of dieting? What do you think? It seems that it may have a sparing effect like HMB

[klosey]

Off days would be great. One thing i am thinking is when proteins are most susceptable to unnecessary breakdown. After exercise just by the nature of the acidic environment proteins which were not damaged may be unfolded and then tagged by the Ubiquitin system and degraded unnecessarily. Since heat shock proteins refold proteins it may be advantageous to include HOT baths on days where you really obliterate your muscles to the point where you know you shocked them to the point where you r going to have a hard time moving the trained body part the next day. Its in these situations where I think you may be in danger to degrade proteins unnecessarily. So during those time, and on off days, deloading, and injury would be perfect

I'm also curious if the frequency of this should increase during periods of dieting? What do you think? It seems that it may have a sparing effect like HMB

now if this can help muscle growth, would facia streching or general stretching (full muscle contraction) simulate the same anabolic effects as lifting but without the muscle breakdown?

[President Wilson]

now if this can help muscle growth, would facia streching or general stretching (full muscle contraction) simulate the same anabolic effects as lifting but without the muscle breakdown?

I think that fascia stretching is causing muscle growth and changes in strength by at least two mechanisms.

1. By actually causing muscle damage similar to an eccentric contraction you are pulling cross bridges out of place

2. possibly by providing more room for growth

So it should stimulate changes in protein breakdown to, but with amino acids and the stretching induced changes in protein synthesis overall protein balance should be positive

[klosey]

I think that fascia stretching is causing muscle growth and changes in strength by at least two mechanisms.

1. By actually causing muscle damage similar to an eccentric contraction you are pulling cross bridges out of place

2. possibly by providing more room for growth

So it should stimulate changes in protein breakdown to, but with amino acids and the stretching induced changes in protein synthesis overall protein balance should be positive

interesting, then this would be benifical on non training days

[will-work4andro]

Off days would be great. One thing i am thinking is when proteins are most susceptable to unnecessary breakdown. After exercise just by the nature of the acidic environment proteins which were not damaged may be unfolded and then tagged by the Ubiquitin system and degraded unnecessarily. Since heat shock proteins refold proteins it may be advantageous to include HOT baths on days where you really obliterate your muscles to the point where you know you shocked them to the point where you r going to have a hard time moving the trained body part the next day. Its in these situations where I think you may be in danger to degrade proteins unnecessarily. So during those time, and on off days, deloading, and injury would be perfect

I'm also curious if the frequency of this should increase during periods of dieting? What do you think? It seems that it may have a sparing effect like HMB

i agree with you...i'm going to respond to this by just writing my thoughts...lol...sorry if this is confusing, but this makes sense to me answering like this

1)HSP72 has been shown to help combat atrophy

2)HSP72 has been shown to prevent protein degradation during reduced contractility

3)HSP's are activated with exercise...even occlusion activates HSP's

4)Research has shown that when patients sat in a hottub, it improved glycemia, by unknown mechanisms...i postulate here that it may very well be through HSP72

5)if a hottub does in fact increase HSP72, it could help during periods of inactivity and even in metabolism

6)HSP72 overexpresion has been linked with an increased energy expenditure because HSP72 overexpresion in skeletal muscle prevents high fat-feeding induced increases in bodyweight and fat pad weight. this was attributed to increased EE because the prevention was not related to hypophagia, because both groups consumed the same amount of food

[President Wilson]

6)HSP72 overexpresion has been linked with an increased energy expenditure because HSP72 overexpresion in skeletal muscle prevents high fat-feeding induced increases in bodyweight and fat pad weight. this was attributed to increased EE because the prevention was not related to hypophagia, because both groups consumed the same amount of food

Wow! So this may have fat metabolizing effects! Andro you are off the hook, this is what abc is all about, the great minds comming together to form a bodybuilding think tank!

[Ordo Ab Chao]

4)Research has shown that when patients sat in a hottub, it improved glycemia, by unknown mechanisms...i postulate here that it may very well be through HSP72


did the study state for how long and often they used the hot tub? Were they submerged to the shoulders/necks or just to their stomachs/chests?

[will-work4andro]

did the study state for how long and often they used the hot tub? Were they submerged to the shoulders/necks or just to their stomachs/chests?

everything submerged but head...30 minutes a day/6 days a week

[Ordo Ab Chao]

everything submerged but head...30 minutes a day/6 days a week

good stuff. great analysis man. I'm going to give this a try following active recovery on my rest days.

EDIT: I noticed in your log you are doing 20 min. sessions. Is this because you are doing them following your lifting sessions, i.e. your body temp is already up?

[fightbackhxc21]

sounds sweet, i dont get it tho. my brain is just fried from reading that haha. ill try it

[Ordo Ab Chao]

while we are on the subject, apparently hypoxia can cause heat shock protein expression. it seems blood occlusion training may have more benefits to it than just GH response.

[will-work4andro]

while we are on the subject, apparently hypoxia can cause heat shock protein expression. it seems blood occlusion training may have more benefits to it than just GH response.

you are exactly right...that's why they believe it helps slow atrophy when occlusion is applied in ACL injuries.

[will-work4andro]

this was a conversation i was having over at my other thread on another forum...here is her response and my response is in blue.

HSP --> Wouldn't that invoke the inflammatory response for longer, and keep the free radicals in the muscle longer, and well as the reactive oxidative species? I thought we want inflammation to go down which is why people take fish oils, gluatmine and vit c and e after workouts?

i don't know that inducing HSP's would necessarily invoke an inflammatory response...interesting, HSP's induced by heat stress can actually reduce oxidative stress...which is possible it way HSP's help fight skeletal muscle atrophy during disuse.....this is just my theory on how to further induce them...it's out of the scope of my current lab to actually look at HSP's but as we know, the practice is always ahead of the science.

But Jer, if you think about when you're sick, keeping the body in an ice bath helps speed metabolism, and ice is what you usually put on to REDUCE inflammation....

So you could try a mixed bath after your need hiit session

----------------------------------------------------------

i would argue that acute inflammation isn't a bad thing...what do you guys think?

[will-work4andro]

Tuesday Jan 13th...i will let you know what has occurred to me since starting HEAT SHOCK THERAPY. i'll include any strength/weight/diet changes....with the data i post it won't be conclusive, but it may give some indication of the possible benefits...we'll see what happens...full write up coming next month.

[eclipse23]

*subscibed* sounds great. I feel like I should be paying all you guys for the info you present. It's like going to school every time I log on.

[will-work4andro]

the Hottub is broken at my gym...Experiment over...i'll give thoughts on it up to this point in a few days

[Ratcat]

I have tried epsom salts in a bath twice and I feel that there is an improvement in muscle soreness as compared with just a normal hot bath. :) I'll try the bicarb over the next few weeks. Cheers. :)

[will-work4andro]

here is my honest review and honestly i don't think i can make a definitive claim about heat shock therapy...i do find that it was a great mental break and i did notice weight loss while increasing Kcals but that could be a number of factors...it doesn't necessarily mean the heat increased my energy expenditure...muscle recovery seemed to never be a problem with me before the therapy...i did get stronger through the therapy but again, there are just too many variables to account for...i do recommend it however if you have time...it may help you...as it may have helped me...it is definitely a great mental break...in summation...i think it may have been a benefit but i just can't be sure...i do think this is something i may want to explore in a more scientifically controlled manner in the future...until then...give it a go...it may help you

[Venom]

Thanks for doing this and tracking a log, Jeremy!

[Commander]

You may like this, it is from my e-newsletter from Ironman Magazine.....

Heat: The Magic Muscle Maker
Q: This is kind of an odd question, but does hot weather help grow muscle? I've noticed that in the summer, when it's blazing outside, I make my best gains. In the winter, my gains are much slower, sometimes nonexistent.
A: While it could simply be more summer-time motivation--you train harder because you want to look good at the pool or lake--or it could be leanness and darkness--being more ripped and tan makes you look bigger and better--heat and/or sunshine may have something to do with it, along with sweating. Perspiring more sheds water from under the skin, and that means more vascularity more often, which adds to your bigger, more-shredded look. But heat may be the key...
An animal study immobilized the subjects to force muscle shrinkage, then they divided them into groups and reloaded the leg muscles with weight plus heat or with weight alone. The animals that got heat showed approximately 30 percent greater soleus muscle regrowth, while oxidant damage was also lower. The researchers believe that heat, "improves the rate of skeletal muscle regrowth" and that heat-shock protein overexpression may increase muscle mass through a decrease in local oxidative stress and damage. Very interesting.
That's a recent study, but back in the days of Vince's Gym in Hollywood, owner/trainer Vince Gironda refused to have an air conditioner--and it wasn't because he was cheap. He swore that a hot gym created better, faster results. Apparently, he was onto something, considering the above study. It may be one reason he had some of the best bodybuilders in the world training there, and he had a ripped physique that was ahead of its time...
http://www.x-rep.com/images/IMezine/VinceGironda.jpg
And while heat appears to be a muscle maker, sunshine may also be an anabolic catalyst, aside from the fact that it raises body temperature. There's new evidence that getting more sun exposure--at least 15 minutes every few days without sun block--helps boost testosterone, which may have something to do with triggering the body's production of vitamin D. That vitamin is very important for immune function and optimal hormone levels. According to the latest data, one in three Americans is vitamin-D deficient, and those low levels are being linked to everything from cancer to heart disease (you need to be as healthy as possible to build muscle quickly).
So what can you do to grow more during the winter when it's cold outside? Here are a few tips:
1) Take a vitamin D supplement; new data suggests about 1,000 milligrams a day is adequate.
2) Train in sweats--it's like working out in a hot gym (like Vince's) in the summer.
3) Do cardio, and be sure you perspire; that means you raised your body temp.
4) Crank up the hot tub or sauna often. Heat boosts muscle-building factors, as the study above indicates.
5) If the sun is out, sit in it for 30 to 45 minutes (rays are low intensity during the winter, so a longer exposure is necessary); if it's cold, bundle up, but expose your head and neck.
Till next time, train hard