Just Say No To Soy!

[President Wilson]

So Layne emailed me this article the other day

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/5/1176

Basically it demonstrates that Soy increases AMPK activity, which is a negative regulator of mTOR, which itself is the main stimulator of skeletal muscle protein synthesis :eek:

So not only is Soy low in leucine content, but it actually inhibits protein synthesis!

[niggles]

eew! DEATH TO SOY!

[spider-man]

is this the processed soy protein powder? or the soy bean? Because i know the fda requires manufactures to supplement the powder with aminos...

[klosey]

So Layne emailed me this article the other day

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/5/1176

Basically it demonstrates that Soy increases AMPK activity, which is a negative regulator of mTOR, which itself is the main stimulator of skeletal muscle protein synthesis :eek:

So not only is Soy low in leucine content, but it actually inhibits protein synthesis!

this also goes along what we are told by docs over here in the uk, soy protien decreases mens test aswell as fertility levels by as much as 33%

[President Wilson]

this also goes along what we are told by docs over here in the uk, soy protien decreases mens test aswell as fertility levels by as much as 33%

Exactly,

very uncool!

[klosey]

Exactly,

very uncool!

which suprises me why people use it as it isnt that much cheaper then whey, if price is an issue pea protein is cheap and has a very valid amino profile.

[President Wilson]

which suprises me why people use it as it isnt that much cheaper then whey, if price is an issue pea protein is cheap and has a very valid amino profile.

The other thing is that Soy protein is the main protein in a lot of protein bars, BBs should always look at the type of protein in their bars, especially with this data!

[niggles]

The other thing is that Soy protein is the main protein in a lot of protein bars, BBs should always look at the type of protein in their bars, especially with this data!

you would never think to look at what protien is in a protien bar. now i shall look all the time -_-"

[will-work4andro]

Jacob i'm not as clear on this issue as you are...so i'm basically asking what you think....i'm not a proponent of soy in the least bit, but isn't AMPK activated in response to resistance training in the healthy? I know they think chronic AMPK activation is one of the reasons why aged muscle doesn't hypertrophy...so i guess what i'm asking is, would the effects on mTOR from soy mostly depend upon how long AMPK is activated, acutely or chronically?

[President Wilson]

Jacob i'm not as clear on this issue as you are...so i'm basically asking what you think....i'm not a proponent of soy in the least bit, but isn't AMPK activated in response to resistance training in the healthy? I know they think chronic AMPK activation is one of the reasons why aged muscle doesn't hypertrophy...so i guess what i'm asking is, would the effects on mTOR from soy mostly depend upon how long AMPK is activated, acutely or chronically?

Good point, AMPK activation definately is strongly associated with decrements in hypertrophy in aged muscle.

AMPK is also activated with resistance training but this blunts the protein synthesis response to resistance training.

Nutritionally we can turn on AMPK a number of ways, but the main way appears to be by simply lowering the energetic state of the cell (glycogen depeltion) or in this case some component of the soy is actually able to activate AMPK, and thus it is hindering overall protein synthesis

[fightbackhxc21]

crap, i been eating a lot of soy protien in my bars. I liked them cuz they were tastey and cheap. Anyone got any other good bars that are cheap and non soy?

[will-work4andro]

Good point, AMPK activation definately is strongly associated with decrements in hypertrophy in aged muscle.

AMPK is also activated with resistance training but this blunts the protein synthesis response to resistance training.

Nutritionally we can turn on AMPK a number of ways, but the main way appears to be by simply lowering the energetic state of the cell (glycogen depeltion) or in this case some component of the soy is actually able to activate AMPK, and thus it is hindering overall protein synthesis

is there any difference though, other than the way it is turned on? is the activation of AMPK in response to resistance training, the fact that muscle is using fuel? so let me know if have this right....if you would lift weights, AMPK is activated, but upon eating AMPK is turned back off...however, if your meal is SOY...it will stay activated...am i thining this right?

[Layne Norton]

Jacob i'm not as clear on this issue as you are...so i'm basically asking what you think....i'm not a proponent of soy in the least bit, but isn't AMPK activated in response to resistance training in the healthy? I know they think chronic AMPK activation is one of the reasons why aged muscle doesn't hypertrophy...so i guess what i'm asking is, would the effects on mTOR from soy mostly depend upon how long AMPK is activated, acutely or chronically?

yes it is. The other side of the coin is that AMPK will increase fat oxidation but you don't want it doing that at the expense of muscle mass.

My recommendation is if you take soy, don't take it by itself, have it with some whey or supplemental BCAAs so that you can overcome the negative regulation of AMPK on mTOR

[President Wilson]

is there any difference though, other than the way it is turned on? is the activation of AMPK in response to resistance training, the fact that muscle is using fuel? so let me know if have this right....if you would lift weights, AMPK is activated, but upon eating AMPK is turned back off...however, if your meal is SOY...it will stay activated...am i thining this right?

Yes that seems to be the case. For example studies which start with lower muscle glycogen stores get a greater AMPK response than when the individual starts with high muscle glycogen stores, same goes for creatine phosphate levels which may be one mechanism creatine consumption increases lean mass, by increasing the energetic state of the cell and lowering AMPK.

Basically anything that creates an energy deficit will increase AMPK.

So you are correct after exercise, by consuming a meal you should shut down AMPK, particularly by improving the energetic state of the cell, but Soy appears to counter this, by a mechanism that I do not believe has been identified.

[dashforce]

Pres --

Are adipocyte phosphocreatine stores influenced by supplementation? If so, could C theoretically impede fat loss? I've seen a few studies where creatine shifted substrate oxidation away from fat toward carbs, but nothing mind-blowing.

And while I'm at it, do you know of any estimate for adipocyte glycogen stores? I know they have very little, but I'm curious as to a whole-body estimate.

[President Wilson]

Hmmm all great questions. What I know is that 98 % of creatine stores are in skeletal muscle tissue, so this is the main area supplementation would effect.

In terms of hindering fat metabolism, the main study I am aware of is from Huso and colleagues, their results seemed to indicate that creatine supplementation did hinder fat metabolism by shifting fuel utilization to a higher reliance on carbohydrates. So if creatine does decrease fat metabolism then this would be the main area it mediates the effect.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/6/2018

[Ben2285]

wow excellent stuff guys

[Ordo Ab Chao]

Klosey and I were talking about soy in another thread and he mentioned this, now I see what he is talking about. It says that mice on the high-PE diets consumed 198ppm daidzein and 286 ppm genistein. So what does this equate to in a standard diet? How much soy needs to be consumed to to activate AMPK? Is this really of any concern?

For awhile people were raving about soy raising estrogen, but it turns out that it takes about 20mg of phytoestrogens per kg of bodyweight to raise estrogen (in mice subjects). Considering that the average 3 oz. serving of tofu only contains 20 mg and a 3.5 oz. scoop of soy protein concentrate has 100 mg, it's hard to consume enough soy to be worried about raising estrogen. I wonder if this is also the case here.

[klosey]

Klosey and I were talking about soy in another thread and he mentioned this, now I see what he is talking about. It says that mice on the high-PE diets consumed 198ppm daidzein and 286 ppm genistein. So what does this equate to in a standard diet? How much soy needs to be consumed to to activate AMPK? Is this really of any concern?

For awhile people were raving about soy raising estrogen, but it turns out that it takes about 1700 mg of phytoestrogens to raise estrogen (in mice subjects). Considering that the average 3 oz. serving of tofu only contains 20 mg and a 3.5 oz. scoop of soy protein concentrate has 100 mg, it's hard to consume enough soy to be worried about raising estrogen. I wonder if this is also the case here.

ampk activation is a concern as this stops protien synthesis which means no growth

[Ordo Ab Chao]

ampk activation is a concern as this stops protien synthesis which means no growth

I gathered that. I meant is soy consumption really a concern or is it difficult to consume enough to receive a PE dose high enough to activate ampk.

[Ben2285]

I gathered that. I meant is soy consumption really a concern or is it difficult to consume enough to receive a PE dose high enough to activate ampk.

That is a good point and I am wondering the same thing... How much is really an issue because most of us only take in residual soy.

[President Wilson]

All great points. One thing is with animal studies, the investigator will give the animal usually 6 times the dosage because when doing pharmacokinetic calculations, it turns out that 'equivalent" dosages between rodents and humans are different by roughly a factor of 6, which takes into account a number of factors, but mainly accounts for the metabolic rate differences between small rodents and humans. I remember when looking into an animal study I want to do with HMB, that the amount of HMB to give them was 0.25 grams/kg body weight. If this is what we as humans consumed it would mean we would take in nearly 20 grams of HMB per day. so the same would apply in this study, you can compare the dosage as 6 times less per kg and that would be how it applies to us

For people who live on cheap protein bars, or vegetarians it may be an issue. For people who just get neglegable soy as Ben suggests, it probably won't have an effect. The main thing is that the study indicates that we should stear clear of purposely consuming soy as a source of solid protein.

[Ben2285]

All great points. One thing is with animal studies, the investigator will give the animal usually 6 times the dosage because when doing pharmacokinetic calculations, it turns out that 'equivalent" dosages between rodents and humans are different by roughly a factor of 6, which takes into account a number of factors, but mainly accounts for the metabolic rate differences between small rodents and humans. I remember when looking into an animal study I want to do with HMB, that the amount of HMB to give them was 0.25 grams/kg body weight. If this is what we as humans consumed it would mean we would take in nearly 20 grams of HMB per day. so the same would apply in this study, you can compare the dosage as 6 times less per kg and that would be how it applies to us

For people who live on cheap protein bars, or vegetarians it may be an issue. For people who just get neglegable soy as Ben suggests, it probably won't have an effect. The main thing is that the study indicates that we should stear clear of purposely consuming soy as a source of solid protein.

Excellent synopsis! I did read most of the study and I do think it is quite interesting, especially the graphs which showed the larger losses of body fat and weight, I know this is due to the AMPK activation but again according to the graphs large losses were seen in % fat mass not ffm. Although it does inhibit protein synthesis I think it could have useful applications as they suggest.

Another important thing to note is that there are many other high sources of phytoestrogens (though I believe soy is the most potent) such as flax oil, beans, and certain grains.

[Ordo Ab Chao]

Another important thing to note is that there are many other high sources of phytoestrogens (though I believe soy is the most potent) such as flax oil, beans, and certain grains.

What makes you say this? From what I understand, the PE's in soy bind weakly to hormone receptor sites. Do the other PE sources have even weaker bonds?

[Ben2285]

What makes you say this? From what I understand, the PE's in soy bind weakly to hormone receptor sites. Do the other PE sources have even weaker bonds?

The study is labeled "Dietary Phytoestrogens Activate AMP-Activated Protein Kinase With Improvement in Lipid and Glucose Metabolism".

I said it because soy is not the only dietary source of phytoestrogen so it is not the only thing to be wary of, but again it is likely the most potent source. I wasn't really referring to the estrogenic effects of phytoestrogens, but more on the activation of AMPK.

[Ordo Ab Chao]

The study is labeled "Dietary Phytoestrogens Activate AMP-Activated Protein Kinase With Improvement in Lipid and Glucose Metabolism".

I said it because soy is not the only dietary source of phytoestrogen so it is not the only thing to be wary of, but again it is likely the most potent source. I wasn't really referring to the estrogenic effects of phytoestrogens, but more on the activation of AMPK.

thats not what I was asking, sorry if that was misleading. I was hoping you would elaborate on why you think soy PE's are more potent

[Ben2285]

"Phytoestrogen content of foods--a compendium of literature values." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875551?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed)

Plant compounds with estrogenic activity may play a role in cancer prevention, moderation of menopausal symptoms, and other health effects. To facilitate research on these possible actions, the literature was reviewed for quantitative data on the levels of known phytoestrogens (daidzein, genistein, coumestrol, formononetin, and biochanin A) in food plants. For comparative purposes, all phytoestrogen levels were recalculated on a wet weight basis. Details on analytic procedures are given as well. High-performance liquid chromatography was the method most often used to analyze these compounds in foods. Most significant sources of isoflavone and coumestan phytoestrogens include soybeans, soy flour, soy flakes, isolated soy protein, traditional soy foods such as tofu and soy drinks, second-generation say foods, sprouts, and other legumes. Finally, medians among reported values of phytoestrogen content are provided for some of the most commonly eaten foods with quantitative data available. These may be used to calculate dietary intake of daidzein, genistein, coumestrol, formononetin, and biochanin A.

"Dietary phytoestrogens." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9240932?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=5&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed)

"Broadly defined, phytoestrogens include isoflavones, coumestans, and lignans. A number of these compounds have been identified in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains commonly consumed by humans. Soybeans, clover and alfalfa sprouts, and oilseeds (such as flaxseed) are the most significant dietary sources of isoflavones, coumestans, and lignans, respectively. Studies in humans, animals, and cell culture systems suggest that dietary phytoestrogens play an important role in prevention of menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis, cancer, and heart disease. Proposed mechanisms include estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects, induction of cancer cell differentiation, inhibition of tyrosine kinase and DNA topoisomerase activities, suppression of angiogenesis, and antioxidant effects. Although there currently are no dietary recommendations for individual phytoestrogens, there may be great benefit in increased consumption of plant foods."

Honestly before I looked into it my assumption was just based on suspicion since soy is always the first mentioned when phytoestrogen is discussed. These studies back up my suspicions :)