Dispelling the cooked protein myth - denaturing is irrelevent

[Venom]

Probably one of the most asked questions I have seen is if cooking your proteins a certain way will render them worthless. After doing research over here in Champaign IL, I can say no, it won't.

In our lab, we literally replicate the human digestion process; and often use even harsher conditions.

Proteins have the ability to form 3d structures through covalent and non-covalent attractions; these are secondary and tertiary structures (single peptide chain structures), and quaternary structures (interactions between more than one peptide chain).

When protein enters the body, one of the first steps is the destruction of these 3d structures by pepsin. This is called denaturing. Then trypsin and HCL work to hydrolyze the the proteins into amino acids and di/tri-peptides which are absorbed by Pept 1 + individual amino transports, and the sodium potassium pump.

The key point here is that all cooking your food is going to do is denature your proteins, and hydrolyze them into peptides / aminos. This will only assist in digestion!

Let me just give you one step in our lab that should alleviate your concern: to completely hydrolyze the proteins into amino acids, we place our samples in 6 N of HCL and incubate them in an oven at 100 C for 24 hours! And they are still stable. You know why we use 6 N of HCL? Because that is what the body uses!

Now go eat some denatured protein! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Birthright1]

Nice work boss man. How long did you get to test this? Great news for the well done steak guys in the world.

[ryancostill]

This would apply to using whey protein in baking also?

[Venom]

Yup!

I have only been doing this since august; but its a standard protocol used by many scientists.

[Obsidian]

What about freezing whey, Venom? Are there any "negative denaturing" effects there? It should be alright I would think.

[Venom]

Actually that decreases the degredative processes. Which is why we put our samples in our freezer between preparation steps.

[Bahir]

Good to know. I always though that myth sounded stupid. Boiled protein shake, anyone?

[Birthright1]

Would it be a good idea to freeze whey before use? Or is the normal consumption rate of a 5lb jug fast enough that it would not make a difference?

[Venom]

No, you don't have to freeze it. I asked Layne Norton in my lab if it was necessary to freeze our samples after we hydrolyze the proteins w/ HCL and incubate them for 24 hrs. He made a great point: any damage that could be done was done at that point! Which appears to be minimal / none...so whether you freeze it or keep it out at room temperature should have little effect on the stability of the amino acids.

[rickck48]

My compliments, excellent explaination even us lamen can understand this one. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[joneser3eb]

I saw on a news program a nutritionist said you actually can get more nutrients out of vegitables by cooking them. have you heard of this? is this true?

[Venom]

^^^
Just had a lecture today about this! An great example is carotenoids. In whole foods such as carrots, they form crystaline structures which are very hard to digest. By cooking them, you are able to breakdown these structures some, making them much more readily absorbed. It was also suggested that you need to consume 5-10 grams of fat w/ your vitamins - this is necessary for bile acid secretion and optimal absorption in the small intestine. The instructor said that you only absorb about 1% of the carotenoids from raw carrots; with the methods above, you can increase this to 25%! He also said quality supplements like centrum are even more readily absorbed, which goes completely what society tells us!

I think I have made 15 straight posts on studies which completely go against scientific dogma spread by society. I think for now on, if I want to do something that is optimal, I should just do the exact opposite of what our society says!

[wudbme]

Great post. I have been pondering this very question. In essence, a post workout shake might even be more effective if the denaturization has already been initiated. What do you think?

[Venom]

Yes, and you can just have partially hydrolyzed proteins. Pro-score by champion example has a high amount of these.

[joneser3eb]

its so awesome how much you can learn from one place. thanks for all the info

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

This is good stuff.

What if you mix whey with water and drink it several hours later? Same effect?

[Venom]

Yes, quite similar. But it won't denature that much.

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

Cool. Thanks for the reply.

[John Black]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, quite similar. But it won't denature that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it doesn't really matter if I mix up my midnight shake and keep it in the fridge, afterall, hey?

[Venom]

I do that every night.

[Whey Man]

w00t! No more guilt ridden protein pancakes!

Awesome stuff, Venom. Sounds like you're learning quite a bit in Illinois.

[klosey]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, and you can just have partially hydrolyzed proteins. Pro-score by champion example has a high amount of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

hydronized proteins taste like death! lol im currently trying to figure out isopures protein drink its basically whey and dex in water, how the hell can this stuff have a 6 month best before? or is the myth of whey degenerating in water now dispelled too?

[Bahir]

[ QUOTE ]
or is the myth of whey degenerating in water now dispelled too?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that that was the myth that was the focus of this thread /forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[MorThanAConqeror]

Hey venom so this Raw food diet is bogus that states that cooking meats cooks out all of the protein and aminos.

[Venom]

Pretty much. I'm not saying to burn them to a crisp, but for the most part it's not a concern.

[tyciol]

There are other concerns in cooking besides protein, do you have information about stuff like damage to vitamins or antioxidant compounds? This might be more of a concern with plants than meat, I'm not sure.

Rancidity is one issue that comes to mind, like why it's okay to cook saturated fats or even monounsaturated like olive oil, but to avoid cooking polys like flax since they go rancid under heat easier, something like that.

Which brings to mind the question: there's this big hard-on for grass-fed beef because it's apparently higher in omega 3 than corn-fed beef or something like that. But if we're going to be cooking the meat, is having polyunsaturated animal fat necessarily a good thing? I could understand if we were eating the meat raw, but perhaps if we're going to be cooking the meat, we should have the saturated corn fat and just cut as much of it off as possible.

I mean seriously, no matter how Omega3 grassy beef is, surely we'd be better off relying on uncooked sources, like cold-pressed flax or fish oils.

[Venom]

Yeah, that's an excellent point about damaging other nutrients besides proteins with cooking. This definitely is an issue with vegetables, such as broccoli - for instance, microwaving broccoli can completely destroy the anti-estrogen/anti-cancer nutrients which are contained with in them (sulforaphane, etc.).

It's a good point about omega 3s being enriched in foods such as eggs and beef...you certaining could question the bioavailability of that when cooked?

[rocco-x]

just had this conversation with my girl as i was cooking dinner,lol!she says i cook at too low a flame.my reasoning is that from what info i've gathered is that high protein meals like beef,chicken and fish should be cooked slowly to prevent the meat from becoming tough due to the protein content.who's right,me or her?

[Venom]

You do not want to burn proteins or meats - this actually can have a carcinogenic effect. But beyond that, how you cook your proteins is not going to influence muscle protein synthesis. That's the main point of this thread.