Soy

[Rain_Man]

Ok For the past few weeks i've bought soya isolate Chocolate Flavour. I mix it in with my porridge and seed mixture in the morning. Its good stuff and i like it better than the whey. I seem to have better muscle tone and look and feel alot better as well to be honest. It's got more protein per scoop as well and tastes magic in the oats. There's no carbs or fat just protein.

Benefits seem to be Immune boosting, Antioxidant, Cholestrol lower and Hormone balancer. Good stuff and I think its the Bizz.

I also bought a Plain Varitey so i can add it to soups to up the protein, not bad if i do say so myself. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[biglifter56]

doesnt soy promote estrogen?

[Rain_Man]

Not really, I feel grand and i've been on the stuff a good while. I read somewhere thats its fine for blokes to take, also there more arginine in it than whey. great for pre bed too.

Why not just try some for yourself and check out what you think. you'll never know unless you try if for yourself bro.

And thats for everyone here.

[macka]

[ QUOTE ]
doesnt soy promote estrogen?

[/ QUOTE ]

actually it competes at the receptor level with testosterone, denying spots to testosterone, throwing the balance out of whack. With less test in your system, you will make less muscle, and have higher estrogen to testosterone levels. This is why some men get gyno and lose muscle volume when they use soy protein regularly.

[sucramdw]

Hey Macka, could you provide a source for this information.

[macka]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Macka, could you provide a source for this information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheehan and Medlock, 1995
Tong, et al, 1997
Miksicek, 1998

these are actual studies showing the estrogenic and testosterone blocking properties of soy.There are a few more from Europe but this is just a quick dig.

[Rain_Man]

omg Is that true, Man i don't want that, How do u explain the fact that i'm feelin pretty **** good then. I'm so confused...

[biscuits]

Yeah I read same thing on a article awhile back. No soy.

[williepumps]

I don't think soy is bad to cycle. After cutting for a good 3 months I've read here that it's good to supplement with soy for a week or to, It's good for you thyroid wich is stressed in time like a cut

[sucramdw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Macka, could you provide a source for this information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheehan and Medlock, 1995
Tong, et al, 1997
Miksicek, 1998

these are actual studies showing the estrogenic and testosterone blocking properties of soy.There are a few more from Europe but this is just a quick dig.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please list the entire studies reference, not just the author, example - Kraus-Friedmann N. Hormonal regulation of hepatic gluconeogenesis. Physiol Rev. 1984 Jan;64(1):170-259.

[Rain_Man]

So should we take soy at all, what about all the benefits?

Japan as far a i know has a high intake of soy in there diet and a very low cancer rating.

[richnewton]

I ate soy only for ~5 months and had the best gains of my life with no negative effects whatsoever.

I think the anti-soy thing is all hype. First of all - they are plant estrogen like compounds, not even animal compounds. Second of all they are found in trace amounts. And 3rd, the human body is good at regulating test/estrogen itself.

[Rain_Man]

finally something good to be said about soy.

[Wzs99]

These are some excellent articles on soy.

http://www.rense.com/health/soyitisntso.htm
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

[Rain_Man]

With all that good new on soy why don't people use this more often.

I for instance I absolutely adore soya beans.

I love them for thicking soaps or cooked in a thick tomato sauce.

If we are so health cencerned here why not Eat vegetarian products more.

[Axilleus]

Heres some Info. I found on this site a while back on soy, its very detailed and shows numerous studies. hope this helps.

The Evils of Soy
by Cy Willson



We intially broke the "soy conspiracy" story back in issue #87 in an article titled Bad Protein. However, since it's such a potentially important story, and since new evidence has since surfaced, we figured it was a topic worth revisiting. Hence this article.


A little over a year ago, soy protein was the talk of the town. It was invited to all the parties, and it was even rumored to be having a little romantic fling with Jennifer Aniston from Friends (before she married Brad Pitt).

Likewise, the general media was touting it to be the best thing since sliced bread, or was that 100% stone ground wheat bread? Oh well. Anyhow, since the government gave soy a "thumbs up" to the public, stating that, "25 grams of soy protein per day, as part of a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may reduce the risk of heart disease," people began to think that it was indeed the best protein around. After all, it was relatively high in quality, cheap, and healthy! What else could you want?

And to boot, a few studies arose from the muck to indicate that this protein may enhance anabolic hormone levels and may increase thyroid hormone levels while dieting. Sounds soooo good. Right? Well, after a good amount of both scientific and "real world" evidence has surfaced, it turns out that soy may not be so good after all. Especially for the male bodybuilder.

Sounds all too familiar to me. Reminds me of the evil-painted women that I and other hapless men have encountered in the past. Sure, she's beautiful, classy, smart, loaded, and best of all, horny! Nothing could be better in life. That is, until you start to discover that your wallet's missing 200 bucks and it now burns when you take a pee.

Ouch! Sounds pretty harsh, eh? Well, even so, this still isn't even close to what soy has done to us. I'll let you in on all of the evil and destructive things that soy can do to you, should you decide to consume it. Sadly though, we must be careful, as many companies are still adding this vile crud into protein formulas, bars, and meal replacements. Hopefully, after you hear what I have to say, you realize that soy shouldn't be consumed by male bodybuilders. Not even your worst enemy deserves the horrid effects that soy is capable of producing. Okay, enough rambling, let's get to it.

First though, before we begin, I just want to go over some quick review material, just to make sure we're all on the same page. The reason why soy is so bad basically boils down to the isoflavones that it contains. Two of these isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, are what cause the majority of negative effects seen with soy protein use.

These two villains bind readily to Estrogen Receptors. One such receptor is the Alpha receptor and the other, of course, is the Beta receptor. The Alpha receptor is the one generally associated with breast tumors, increased body fat, water retention, etc. The Beta receptor really isn't something to worry about. Anyhow, genistein and daidzein can bind rather well to the Alpha receptor.

No big deal right? Well, it might actually be somewhat beneficial if they didn't activate transcription to any significant degree, as this would be what's considered an anti-estrogenic action. In other words, it would be good if the compound binded to the site and didn't cause any growth, while preventing any naturally-produced estrogen from binding (the estrogen "parking spots" would already be filled). However, genistein does activate transcription to a significant degree after binding to the Alpha receptor and therefore will cause growth of tissues.(1,2,3)


Two of America's Most Wanted

Unfortunately, the two soy isoflavones that I mentioned previously can have numerous adverse effects on everything ranging from Testosterone production, thyroid production, muscle growth, and even health.

Let's consider soy's affects on T production first. The ability of soy protein to decrease Testosterone levels has been well demonstrated. One study displayed a 76% reduction of Testosterone production in men, after ingestion of soy protein over a brief period of time.(4) In yet another study, an inverse association was found between soy protein intake and Testosterone levels in Japanese men.(5)

Finally, in yet another study, using healthy adult males, a diet containing soy was compared to a diet that consisted of meat protein in terms of sex hormone concentrations. Well, after evaluation, Testosterone levels were significantly lower in the soy diet. Not only this, but the estimated amount of free Testosterone was 7% lower after the soy diet as well.(6)

Hey, mice didn't fare much better. Testosterone and LH were also lowered in mice consuming only the isoflavone genistein.(7)

The evidence seems pretty conclusive. There may, of course, be other factors, but it's enough to give one pause when considering whether or not he should add some soy to his next protein drink.


IGF, Thyroid, and the Girly Hormones

It's fairly clear that soy protein lowers testosterone levels. How does it affect estrogen and progesterone levels? You'd figure that genistein would at least reduce the activity of estrogen to some extent, since it binds at the same receptor site, right? Well, apparently not. It turns out that genistein does not inhibit the effects of estradiol and in fact has been demonstrated to exert an additive effect when combined with estradiol.(2,8)

This means that they don't interfere with one another and can both exert the same negative effects at the same time, thus, packing a double punch. Furthermore, genistein may potentially increase estradiol levels as well. It's thought that this may occur because genistein may deconjugate estrone in the gut and allow for it to reabsorb into the bloostream and convert to estradiol.(9)

It's possible that it may also exert some progestational activity.(10) Even worse is that the estrogenic activity of these phytoestrogens may have been underestimated in the past, as there is evidence that they may be much more potent in vivo as opposed to in vitro [test tube] studies.(11) Oh, and while we're still on the topic or hormones, soy protein has also been shown to decrease IGF-1 concentrations in male rats.(12) Oh, and I'd feel bad if I forgot to mention that it can lower T4 levels, too.(13)


Protecting Our Future

While planting a seed definitely isn't an immediate goal of mine, I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who wish to pass on their superior genes. So, for these men, I urge you to not let your child or pregnant wife consume any products that contain soy. While there isn't concrete evidence as of yet, there's still enough to warrant some caution.

For instance, when female rats were fed genistein while pregnant, their pups weighed significantly less than the groups that weren't fed genistein.(14) Also, when young rats were given genistein, spermatogenesis decreased, as did body weight, testicle size, and possibly the urge to mate. Another study found similar results.(15,16)

Oh, and before I forget, genistein has been shown to cause testicular cells to die, in vitro at least.(17)


Healthy? I Think Not

The main reason why the government decided to "sponsor" soy protein was because it can supposedly reduce the risk of heart disease. However, the funny, or scary, thing is that soy has actually been shown to decrease HDL cholesterol.(18,19) HDL cholesterol is the good kind.

Furthermore, it's possible that the isoflavones can induce growth and malignancy of the prostate. This is because the ER Alpha is thought to be at least partially responsible for the induction of growth. So, in theory, since genistein can agonize the ER Alpha in much the same way as estradiol, then it could cause growth of the prostate.(20)


Okay, So What About my Muscles?

Okay, now let's move on to the important stuff. How good is soy protein in terms of increasing muscle growth? Well, when compared to casein, it was beaten in terms of both protein synthesis and breakdown.(21) So, we know that it can't match proteins like casein or whey. What else? Well, even though this might make you cringe, I feel obligated to tell you. Get this, genistein was shown to inhibit myoblast proliferation and fusion in a dose-dependent manner!

It decreased protein synthesis and inhibited protein accretion as a result. These results occurred even at the lowest dose. The authors concluded that if animals consume enough soy, those concentrations of genistein could potentially affect normal muscle growth and development.(22)

Now that's some frightening stuff! Okay, so things couldn't get any worse for soy, right? Well not only may it interfere with muscle growth, but it may screw with your pro-hormone usage. Why is that? Well, genistein may interfere with the conversion of 4-androstenediol to Testosterone, thus, reducing the effectiveness of your favorite supplement to a good degree! This happens because it interferes with the enzyme 3 Beta-HSD.(23)


The End?

Boy, I wish it were the end, but the fact is that many companies, with the encouragement of the government, will continue to add soy protein to their products. However, like many of us fringe-element weight lifters have for so many years, we'll stand by and endure while the rest of the world makes a big mistake.

The next thing you know, there will be a big story about how truly harmful this stuff is to the male. Hopefully it won't be too late. But hey, maybe I'm being a bit hypercritical here. I mean, who knows, this may actually be a good supplement for the average woman. They seem to think they need more estrogen and less muscle, so more power to 'em.

For those T-Vixens, however, stay away from it! Especially while pregnant. Anyhow, my advice for you would be to read every food and supplement label that you have to make sure that there isn't any soy within the product. I mean, hey, you'll be checking the macronutrient profile anyhow, so just skim on down to the ingredients from now on. Be careful, you'd be surprised by how many items have been tainted. For now, good luck and keep your eyes peeled.

ala T-Nation

1.Breinholt V, et al. "Estrogenic activity of flavonoids in mice. The importance of estrogen receptor distribution, metabolism and bioavailability." Food Chem Toxicol 2000 Jul;38(7):555-64

2.Casanova M, et al. "Developmental effects of dietary phytoestrogens in Sprague-Dawley rats and interactions of genistein and daidzein with rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro." Toxicol Sci 1999 Oct;51(2):236-44

3.Stahl S, et al. "Phytoestrogens act as estrogen agonists in an estrogen-responsive pituitary cell line." Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1998 Sep;152(1):41-8

4.Zhong, et al. "Effects of dietary supplement of soy protein isolate and low fat diet on prostate cancer." FASEB J 2000;14(4):a531.11

5.Nagata C, et al. "Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men." Nutr Cancer 2000;36(1):14-8.

6.Habito RC, et al. "Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the diet on sex hormone concentrations in healthy adult males." Br J Nutr 2000 Oct;84(4):557-63

7.Strauss L, et al. "Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract." Mol Cell Endocrinol 1998 Sep 25;144(1-2):83-93

8.Santell RC, et al. "Dietary genistein exerts estrogenic effects upon the uterus, mammary gland and the hypothalamic/pituitary axis in rats." J Nutr 1997 Feb;127(2):263-9

9.Harrison RM, et al. "Effect of genistein on steroid hormone production in the pregnant rhesus monkey." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1999 Oct;222(1):78-84

10.Zand RS, et al. "Steroid hormone activity of flavonoids and related compounds." Breast Cancer Res Treat 2000 Jul;62(1):35-49

11.Nagel SC, et al. "The effective free fraction of estradiol and xenoestrogens in human serum measured by whole cell uptake assays: physiology of delivery modifies estrogenic activity." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1998 Mar;217(3):300-9

12.Aukema HM, Housini I. "Dietary soy protein effects on disease and IGF-1 in male and female Han:SPDR-cy rats." Kidney Int 2001 Jan;59(1):52-61

13.Klein M, et al. "Energy metabolism and thyroid hormone levels of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins?soy or casein." Arch Tierernahr 2000;53(2):99-125.

14.Flynn KM, et al. "Effects of genistein exposure on sexually dimorphic behaviors in rats." Toxicol Sci 2000 Jun;55(2):311-9

15.Atanassova N, et al. "Comparative effects of neonatal exposure of male rats to potent and weak (environmental) estrogens on spermatogenesis at puberty and the relationship to adult testis size and fertility: evidence for stimulatory effects of low estrogen levels." Endocrinology 2000 Oct;141(10):3898-907

16.Whitten PL, et al. "Phytoestrogen influences on the development of behavior and gonadotropin function." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1995 Jan;208(1):82-6

17.Kumi-Diaka J, et al. "Cytotoxic potential of the phytochemical genistein isoflavone (4',5',7-trihydroxyisoflavone) and certain environmental chemical compounds on testicular cells." Biol Cell 1999 Sep;91(7):515-23

18.Ashton E, Ball M. "Effects of soy as tofu vs meat on lipoprotein concentrations." Eur J Clin Nutr 2000 Jan;54(1):14-9

19.Madani S, et al. "Dietary protein level and origin (casein and highly purified soybean protein) affect hepatic storage, plasma lipid transport, and antioxidative defense status in the rat." Nutrition 2000 May;16(5):368-75.

20.Risbridger G, et al. "Evidence that epithelial and mesenchymal estrogen receptor-alpha mediates effects of estrogen on prostatic epithelium." Dev Biol 2001 Jan 15;229(2):432-442

21.Schadereit R, et al. "Whole body protein turnover of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins?soy protein or casein." Arch Tierernahr 1999;52(4):311-21

22.Ji S, et al. "Soybean isoflavones, genistein and genistin, inhibit rat myoblast proliferation, fusion and myotube protein synthesis." J Nutr 1999 Jul;129(7):1291-7

23.Keung WM. "Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii." Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24;215(3):1137-44

[ElGrizzle]

hrmmmm. That sucks, I need an alternative to dairy, cause im allergic. Im having a tough time finding lots bulk protein that I can use.

[downtown04]

Just came across this figured I'd share it with everyone.



Soy: The New Anabolic Protein?

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Soy: The New Anabolic Protein?
by Douglas R. Kalman PhD(c) RD

In the old days, protein supplements were often unpalatable and hard to use. Today, the newer protein fortified supplements on the market are just unbelievable. They taste awesome, are easy to use and best yet, they have multiple uses and benefits. For example, if you look at the Lean Body Meal Replacement Powders (MRP’s) you can see that not only are they great as a meal replacement, snack or post-workout anabolic drink, but they contain a wide array of lean mass promoting agents that are a must-have in any serious exercise-nutrition strategy.

A MRP (Meal Replacement Protein) Primer

Just like everyday foods, MRPs contain carbohydrates, proteins and fat. The difference is often found in the ratio of carbs, protein’s and fat. Also, as in the foods that you eat, the quality of nutrients provided in MRPs may vary from product to product. This is an important fact. One of the main traits that you want in your MRP is high quality ingredients. This fact does not change with your goals (if your goal is to lose weight fast or gain muscle you still want the best ingredients in your MRP). Thus, providing the body with an abundance of high caliber protein and carbohydrates, fiber, and healthy fats, as well as a wide array of vitamins, minerals, and other important nutrients, is vitally important to your efforts to build a better body.

The key ingredient in most MRPs is protein. As a matter of fact, a diet void of protein will result in malnutrition, disease and ultimately, death. Scary isn’t it? The reason for protein’s essentiality is that it provides the indispensable element nitrogen to our body. Nitrogen is a basic requisite for life. As you may recall, from grade school, we were all taught how the plant and human worlds interact with each other. Plants “breathe” out oxygen; we breathe oxygen in, and in return expel carbon dioxide out, which plants then breathe in. People and plants sustain each other’s life. The key link between the human and plant kingdoms is nitrogen. Both plants and humans need nitrogen to grow and sustain life.

There are many sources of protein typically used in MRPs. Each different source of protein is rated or scored for its ability to be absorbed and utilized by the body. One key to picking a good MRP is knowing that the first few sources of protein are of high quality. High quality proteins are easily absorbed and utilized by the body. Protein sources can be individual or complementary. For example, if a MRP contains whey (isolate, concentrate or hydrolysate) it is good, if the product also contains a soy isolate, it may be even better (synergy of whey plus soy), if the product also contains casein as found in milk protein isolate, that you have a product that has hit the trifecta of protein ingredient selection.

The second macronutrient to look for in a MRP is carbohydrate. Carbohydrates are a bit easier to understand than protein and fat. In our diets, carbohydrate sources usually include pasta, rice, juice, fruits, bread, cereals and vegetables. In MRP drinks, the sources of carbohydrates typically are maltodextrin (a derivative of both corn and potatoes), fructose (fruit sugar), high fructose corn syrup (a sugar made from the combination of fruit and corn that should be avoided), oat flour, or some other similar ingredient. The ideal MRP will also contain lower glycemic carbohydrates and fiber so that you get dual benefits from the product. The amount of carbohydrate in a MRP only really matters under two scenarios. One, if you are looking to lose weight or are an endurance athlete, and secondly, if you are a diabetic or hypoglycemic, the amount of carbohydrate is an essential concern.

The last macronutrient that is common in the diet is fat. Dietary fat is responsible for the good taste of many foods. We get fat in the diet through salad dressings, fried foods (eat these minimally if at all), nuts and seeds, whole milk and dairy products, red meat, fatty fish, and a whole host of other foods. The source of fat in the diet can greatly affect the immune system, exercise performance and health in general. Unfortunately, due to its taste and stability, the healthiest fat cannot be incorporated into a MRP, although you could still take a supplement of fish oil to help boost your omega-3 intake. However, do not despair, scientists have figured a way to incorporate healthy sources of monounsaturated fats into many MRPs. Fat should not be feared, rather it should be revered and used in the diet to achieve optimal health. It is essential to understand the role of fat in a MRP. Fat, can help slow the absorption of nutrients, thus allowing a greater possible absorption of vitamins and minerals from the MRP, while stabilizing the blood sugar response. In reading the food label on a MRP, to help insure that you are getting healthy fat, look for the label to list a number for poly and monounsaturated fats, with minimal saturated fat content.

Protein Primer

It is without doubt that whey protein should be considered numero uno for any MRP or part of any protein supplementation plan. However, soy protein isolate is truly under and unappreciated by those into health, fitness and bodybuilding. There is a wrongful male fear (irrational belief) that since soy contains phytoestrogens (plant sourced estrogen) that it will have an anti-testosterone effect in men. The data simply prove that to be wholly without merit and in fact, false. Did you know that a recent study found that soy was just as effective as whey for inducing (aiding) in muscle gains when combined with weight-training? This study found that for people who weight lifted four times per week (split body-type routine) and supplemented daily with a total of 50 grams of protein (whey, soy or a combination of the two), that the gains in muscle mass over a 12-week period were significant irrespective of what group the subjects fell into. Better yet, there were no negative changes in any of the male or female hormone levels from soy supplementation. Interestingly enough, the group that received the whey plus soy actually had a significant increase in the testosterone to estradiol ratio (meaning that more bioavailable testosterone was the result). The take home is simple, whey plus soy delivers greater biochemical benefit while having at least equal physiological benefit to the person who lifts weights. You may already know that whey protein contains agents (micromolecules) which are immunoenhancing, support healthy cholesterol levels, support thyroid function, enhance vascular tone, reduce the risk of heart disease and most importantly support the accretion of lean body mass (muscle). So, the point is that any well thought out, smartly designed MRP would, should contain whey protein and in fact, Lean Body does.

The science also tells us that soy protein reduces the risk of heart disease, enhances bone density (especially important for women), supports muscular growth, aids in dieting and is a satiating protein (helps to keep you feeling full). We know from more than one well-designed study that when soy protein isolate is combined with whey, the benefits become additive (synergistic): muscle reacts positively to the exercise plus supplementation, health is promoted throughout the body, and the user feels satisfied so he doesn’t overeat.

Additionally, soy protein is rich in branched chain amino acids (of which leucine is a key regulatory for enhancing muscular growth), arginine (may bolster growth hormone levels) and glutamine, which is great for the immune system and for athletic recovery.

The Take Home

Whey protein is a great healthy ingredient in a protein supplement and certainly in any MRP. Adding soy protein isolate enhances whey protein, especially for increasing the testosterone to estradiol ratio in men. If gaining or maintaining muscle mass is important to you, the combination of whey and soy is one proven protein combination for supporting this goal. In addition, numerous weight control (weight loss or satiety) studies have found that whey or soy can be beneficial for helping to maintain blood sugar, enhancing the feeling of fullness, supporting the hormones that regulate appetite and most importantly, maintaining muscle. In short, since soy protein isolate also imparts an improved mouth feel when combined with other proteins and since there is synergy between whey and soy, it would be a disservice to all the hard work that you do in and out of the gym for you not to use and enjoy a product that has both of these proteins as key ingredients.

REFERENCES



Douglas S. Kalman MS, RD is a Director at Miami Research Associates (www.miamiresearch.com). He is also active with www.sportsnutritionsociety.org (http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org) and a consultant to NIKE Inc. He can be contacted through either website.

[richnewton]

Interesting study. I'd definitely say that there's a lot of science yet to be done to determine if Soy is "bad" or "good". Personally I didn't notice anything bad after eating a ton of soybeans and soy protein for a long time but who knows.

[downtown04]

The first thing that came to my mind was that in all of the anti-soy studies that were done on lab rats and mice, the amounts of soy that they were consuming made up large portion of their diets. And that the amount of soy (one PWO shake per day) in the second study was not significant enough to casue any of the results seen in the other studies, so perhaps the effects would be seen more in the long term, or one shake a day is such a small portion of your daily caloric intake the effects from soy would be negligable altogether.

[Rain_Man]

I don't care what people say, I really truely believe that soy protein is a beast and i would recommend people on this site to switch for 3 months and see what happens. Thats would be an interesting experiment wouldn't you say. I'm making the switch anyway today and getting some soy isolate /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif.