fat burners

[Kotik]

Over the last year I have in search for a fat burner. More than anything, I wanted an energy boost, but now I'd like both. I have taken an ephedrine stack and an ephedra (25-50mgs a dose) stack. (both ECA) Neither one of these have given me any energy that I could notice, nor increase my heart rate, etc. For a long time I wondered if my goods were faulty but I tried other ECA products and my friend tried mine with results. Like most other people, I was dieting and cardio-ing my (!@#$%^&*) off so I don't know if I should attribute weight loss to ECA. I have never stayed on anything for more than 6 weeks.

I have 2 questions.

1. why didn't I get a reaction from the ECA? maybe I was burning fat but had absolutely no side effects? maybe theres something from with adrenals?

2. are there any good fat burners out there that you guys have used? or is ECA as good as it gets, really?

[DirtbagDan]

Try the RIPPED System by NxLabs. Best non-ephedrine fat burner i've ever used, and it worked wonders for me. It's got both a daytime and night-time fat burner, so it keeps your body burning fat around the clock. Check it out: http://www.nxlabs.com/myweb.php?hls=10643&prod=335

[dashforce]

Caffeine's effectiveness is dramatically decreased when taken with carbs, and somewhat blunted with fat. Your ECA stack should be taken on an empty stomach and 30 minutes before your next meal for maximum effectiveness. Is this how you were taking it? Its effectiveness as a fat burner could theoretically be maximized on a low-carb diet.

Venom explains caffeine's interactions a little bit in the AD thread in the nutrition section -- you might look it up.

[Axilleus]

Chromium Picolinate is a good fat burner, without the caffiene and other (questionable) ingredients,

[Kotik]

I checked out the RIPPED system, looks pretty impressive. Why do you say that it worked well for you?

I used to take ECA twice daily, once in the morning on an empty stomach 30 minutes before running, and once after school/before work at around 4. I usually ate something with the second one. However, I was NOT eating a lot of carbs. but maybe enough to screw it up.

By chromium picolinate do you mean just like a chromium supplement? I take 200mg daily now and it says it comes from "niacin-bound chromium polynicotine." Is that the same thing? Does this help because of the increased insulin response?

I have also tried redline energy drink. I drank the whole thing at once and it didn't do anything.

[Whey Man]

My six pack started showing as soon as I started taking green tea pills 3-4 times a day, 3 pops at a time (one serving before bed).

Not claiming it gave me all my success, but I think it definately helped a ton, and I avoided high gimmick products in the process.

[DirtbagDan]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked out the RIPPED system, looks pretty impressive. Why do you say that it worked well for you?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well for one, the new blend of ingredients they use in their fat burner is new and works extremely well. Of course, there is also the factor that it has both a daytime AND nighttime fat burner, so it keeps burning fat all the time. It also comes with this awesome book on getting ripped complete with tips on diet, exercise, etc. that will really help you in the long run. Alot of companies out there that sell thermogenic fat burners often exaggerate claims and lie. The RIPPED system is one that doesn't lie or exaggerate. You can tell from the booklet they give you, they tell you how the product works and everything all the way down to the molecular level. Of course, like every supplement company, they always have to pull the "our product is the best" line everywhere... but that's expected of everything in the supplement industry, lol.

Try it out. It's pretty much the only non-ephedra fat burner I advocate, and i've tried nearly every single one of them in the past and found that the RIPPED system worked the best, by far.

[Kotik]

you know, I may actually try out the ripped system, since its on sale at GNC and I'm a member there, I just got a thingy about their huge sale going on right now. what do you feel when you take it? and why do you think its the best? (in your opinion, just wondering) Also, its okay if I don't use the DRY part, right? I'm not all about getting too vascular. I'm a girl, incase someone didn't know.

I may also get some green tea pills too, then. I saw there is green tea in the ripped system but since GNC is already having a sale, why not...

I'll tell you guys how it goes, but if anyone else has anymore idea/suggestions or anything I'd love to hear them.

[DirtbagDan]

[ QUOTE ]
you know, I may actually try out the ripped system, since its on sale at GNC and I'm a member there, I just got a thingy about their huge sale going on right now. what do you feel when you take it? and why do you think its the best? (in your opinion, just wondering) Also, its okay if I don't use the DRY part, right? I'm not all about getting too vascular. I'm a girl, incase someone didn't know.

I may also get some green tea pills too, then. I saw there is green tea in the ripped system but since GNC is already having a sale, why not...

I'll tell you guys how it goes, but if anyone else has anymore idea/suggestions or anything I'd love to hear them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in my opinion it is THE best out there for non ephedrine fat burners. When I take it, I don't get the jittery feeling and caffeine crash that other fat burners give. You don't need to use Methyl Dry unless you're competing in a show or something.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
Over the last year I have in search for a fat burner. More than anything, I wanted an energy boost, but now I'd like both. I have taken an ephedrine stack and an ephedra (25-50mgs a dose) stack. (both ECA) Neither one of these have given me any energy that I could notice, nor increase my heart rate, etc. For a long time I wondered if my goods were faulty but I tried other ECA products and my friend tried mine with results. Like most other people, I was dieting and cardio-ing my (!@#$%^&*) off so I don't know if I should attribute weight loss to ECA. I have never stayed on anything for more than 6 weeks.

I have 2 questions.

1. why didn't I get a reaction from the ECA? maybe I was burning fat but had absolutely no side effects? maybe theres something from with adrenals?

2. are there any good fat burners out there that you guys have used? or is ECA as good as it gets, really?

[/ QUOTE ]

The best I've used is EC minus the A stack. I didn't get all cracked out from it. As a standard response, you should check your diet first before using an thermogenic, but it can also have a huge affect on your energy levels. If you post your average diet and stats we can see if that is the case.

[didymus]

I dont think I'd use anything other than EC (maybe green tea but I'm not convinced it does much). Even if you cant feel it, you should be getting the effects (assuming proper dosing). It is also very cheap compared to most non-ephedrine thermos.

[Kotik]

I am going to start a fitday account soon, and make it public. for right now, my stats are female, 5'9", 158lb and 26% bodyfat.

What do you think the proper dosing for ECA is? And what do you guys use, ephedra or ephedrine HCL?

[DirtbagDan]

Ephedrine HCL is basically the only form of it you can get legally (in the form of nasal decongestant). Of which, you would then take the proper dosage to get a fat burning effect.

[Kotik]

I have taken the HCL before, 25mg 2x a day. I also used a premade ECA stack called smacker. I got it online.

[didymus]

Yeah I do 25mg HCL and 200 caffeine.

[Kotik]

Dan, you know how you said the ripped system is the best non-ECA fat burner you've used, well, how does it compare to ECA? I SO should not be spending money even if it is on sale and now because you guys pointed it out ephedrine IS so much cheaper...

didymus, why no asprin? and did you do 2 oe 3x a day? when did you take them? I used to take it in the morning before running on an empty stomach and then before work/after school with lunch.

[DirtbagDan]

Well, I can't speak for ECA... at least not yet. I've never done it, but I have a bunch of Ephedrine stashed away in my cupboard for my incoming cut cycle about a month and a half away. So if you can wait out maybe 2 months, i'll let you know, lol. Otherwise I can't say because I havent tried my Ephedrine yet.

[JTiger]

If you've never used and EC or ECA stack start with a low dosage to assess your tolerance at 12.5mg ephedrine and 100mg caffeine a day twice a day for the first week. If that is okay, move up to 25mg of E and 200 mg of C per day twice a day. I have had no problems with it at all and it's the cheapest most effective thermogenic out there. I would buy them seperate the package EC stuff is more expensive for no reason.

There have been a lot of studies that indicate the asprin does nothing in the stack. I've never used it for that reason.

The best NON-EC product I've ever used is AnimalCuts. This product worked really well but not as well as the EC stack.

Good luck.

[Kotik]

Keep us updated, Dan.

What do you guys use as your ephedrine source? vasopro? I remember paying like $11 for it but now I check and its more expensive? am I just not looking at the right site or was it always this much and I just remembered incorrectly?

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep us updated, Dan.

What do you guys use as your ephedrine source? vasopro? I remember paying like $11 for it but now I check and its more expensive? am I just not looking at the right site or was it always this much and I just remembered incorrectly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I use Vasopro. It is more expensive now than it was a few months ago since they went to cold medicine type tablet dispenser rather than bottle. It's still cheaper than the non-EC thermos that don't work as well.

[dashforce]

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1319807&pageNo=0

If you want to try an EC stack in the states, you might hurry -- this post claims that on 10-23 another court case was lost to the FDA and that it will be gone from the shelves again soon (I'm guessing not even in Vasopro form). Not sure though.

Check Walmart for Primatene tabs -- that's the cheapest I've found. Like $9 for 60 12.5 mg tabs.

I have heard lots of good things about Biotest Hot Rox Extreme, but haven't tried them yet.

[Kotik]

wow, I might pick some up just in case. right now I am havng trouble commiting to a diet I can keep up for 6 months.

[JTiger]

Ephedrine was never illegal, ephedra was illegal at one time. Big difference. Buy them online, they are much cheaper.

[dashforce]

It's not technically "illegal," but in that sense you might as well not consider marijuana or steroids illegal either. They're fine if you have a prescription.

Similarly, ephedrine is illegal to sell as a weight loss product or in large doses. It's also illegal (at least in every state that i'm aware of) to sell it in large quantities (over 3 grams per purchase or 9 grams per month At Walmart they cut me off at 2 grams. You are required to sign a waiver under federal penalties that you are going to be using the product in accordance with its instructions and dosage recommendations, and using it for weight loss doesn't exactly fall into that category. So in my mind, it is illegal -- at least illegal to use for anything except "bronchial asthma" and as a "nasal decongestant."

Although they claim that it is "unsafe," I think that the principal reason for these restrictions is due to the ease with which it can be converted to methylamphetamine using a process involving red phosphorus and iodine (which is why apparently you shouldn't purchase iodine in mass quantities anymore, either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine)

Apparently 10-23 the supreme court officially shut down a Utah court's decision that ephedra-containing products were okay. The result is that the FDA has declared all products containing ephedra or ephedra alkaloids as unsafe, and presumably they will be removed from the market.

I hope anyone with evidence to the contrary would present it, as I have yet to find anything major in the news regarding this t-nation post.

Edit: Here's some updated info:

[ QUOTE ]
Legality in USA

Ephedrine itself has never been illegal. In 1996, the FDA proposed a regulation on ephedra (the herb from which ephedrine is obtained), which limited an ephedra dose to 8mg with no more than 24mg per day. This proposed rule was then withdrawn in 2000 because "concerns regarding the agency's basis for proposing a certain dietary ingredient level and a duration of use limit for these products." In 2004, the FDA created a ban on ephedrine alkaloids that are marketed for reasons other than asthma, colds, allergies, other disease, or traditional Asian use. Products such as VasoPro's ephedrine HCL contains Guaifenesin, which thins the mucus in the air passages and makes it easier to clear the airway, and thus is sold as a bronchodilator. On April 14th, 2005, the US Federal District Court ruled that the FDA did not have proper evidence that low dosages of ephedrine alkaloids are actually unsafe, but on August 17, 2006, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit in Denver upheld the FDA's final rule declaring all dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated, and therefore illegal for marketing in the United States. Ephedrine is, however, still legal in many applications outside of as dietary supplements. However, currently purchasing is limited and records are kept of how much ephedrine is purchased, with the specifics varying from state to state. Although the FDA claims that their ruling is a result from several deaths from people taking large doses, some people believe that it is only because ephedrine is one of the key ingredients for creating crystal meth, and that is the reason the FDA limits the total quantity one can purchase.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedrine

[didymus]

Yeah ephedrine isnt going anywhere AFAIK. And they do limit the amount you can buy, but it isnt really that big a deal unless you're trying to make meth...
Vasopro is more expensive these days (@ last check), so you can just get some Bronkaid from walmart/etc. It's even on drugstore.com. Last I checked this was the cheapest product w/ ephedrine (may be sulfate instead of HCL, shouldnt matter).

And yeah I did 2-3 doses/day, tried not to take it too late, it does crack me out a bit..

[dashforce]

We'll have to see. I got some the other day no problem.

I tried for over a month to find Bronkaid -- my walmart doesn't carry it, walgreens was out of stock for the whole month, and I couldn't find a single online store with it in stock. It would be the best deal per mg (especially since they're 25 mg tabs so you don't have to take two, and the ephedrine sulfate is supposed to be as good or better than HCl), but I wonder if they might have stopped producing it. Drugstore.com was one of the first places I checked -- I literally spent a month and couldn't find it anywhere. I ended up going with Primatene from Wally World -- more expensive than the Bronkaid, but the best deal I could find.

[Kotik]

I still have some vasopro left over, and thats what I used last time, so I think I am going to go with it again. I still have 20 pills left over from when I stopped since I didn't think it was working for me because of the lack of extra energy. how much do you think a bottle of vasopro should go for? around 25? I don't think they sell it at Walgreens and there aren't any wallmarts around me...

And I know its not exactly a fat burner but have you guys ever heard of CM3 alginate or something like that?

[didymus]

[ QUOTE ]
We'll have to see. I got some the other day no problem.

I tried for over a month to find Bronkaid -- my walmart doesn't carry it, walgreens was out of stock for the whole month, and I couldn't find a single online store with it in stock. It would be the best deal per mg (especially since they're 25 mg tabs so you don't have to take two, and the ephedrine sulfate is supposed to be as good or better than HCl), but I wonder if they might have stopped producing it. Drugstore.com was one of the first places I checked -- I literally spent a month and couldn't find it anywhere. I ended up going with Primatene from Wally World -- more expensive than the Bronkaid, but the best deal I could find.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, its been a few months since I looked for any. You may be right about them discontinuing it..

[JTiger]

You're correct dash. The restriction lie in the marketing of the product, but there are restrictions for marketing tobacco and alcohol, which doesn't make them illegal.


The meth problem in this country is really a huge part of the issue as to why you have to sign waivers when you buy it. Not to mention the althletes that died from abusing it. Like I said previously, if you are in reasonably good health, it shouldn't hurt you if you don't abuse it.

[AMonte]

[ QUOTE ]
My six pack started showing as soon as I started taking green tea pills 3-4 times a day, 3 pops at a time (one serving before bed).

Not claiming it gave me all my success, but I think it definately helped a ton, and I avoided high gimmick products in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey WheyMan, I recently got green tea tablets and was wondering when you take them throughout the day.

[dashforce]

JTiger - I guess it just feels different to me when I basically have to essentially commit perjury - or at least lie - to purchase a supplement... it just "feels" more illegal I guess. The difference in my mind with alcohol/tobacco etc is that the purpose of those products is essentially recreational use whereas ephedrine has a medicative properties that are the basis for its persisting legality and we are "abusing" that fact to use it for other reasons. I realize there are plentiful examples of this in our lives, but ephedrine is the only one that I can think of that I specifically state that I am not going to use it for weight loss, that I sign my name, and then I do. I consider that illegal, though I don't consider myself necessarily at risk for legal repercussions.

[ QUOTE ]
I still have some vasopro left over, and thats what I used last time, so I think I am going to go with it again. I still have 20 pills left over from when I stopped since I didn't think it was working for me because of the lack of extra energy. how much do you think a bottle of vasopro should go for? around 25? I don't think they sell it at Walgreens and there aren't any wallmarts around me...

[/ QUOTE ]

Walgreens here does have Primatene, which is the same thing as Vasopro. Important note: You should not immediately discontinue use of an E/C stack because the lack of a "buzz" or "extra energy." Tolerance builds rather quickly to the stimulant effects of E/C (and unfortunately this is why addiction is also common) but the fat burning properties continue indefinitely. As a matter of fact, tolerance to the stimulant effects is usually found by 2 weeks of continued usage, while studies show that the fat burning effects are still in full effect at 6 months.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
JTiger - I guess it just feels different to me when I basically have to essentially commit perjury - or at least lie - to purchase a supplement... it just "feels" more illegal I guess. The difference in my mind with alcohol/tobacco etc is that the purpose of those products is essentially recreational use whereas ephedrine has a medicative properties that are the basis for its persisting legality and we are "abusing" that fact to use it for other reasons. I realize there are plentiful examples of this in our lives, but ephedrine is the only one that I can think of that I specifically state that I am not going to use it for weight loss, that I sign my name, and then I do. I consider that illegal, though I don't consider myself necessarily at risk for legal repercussions.



[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it like this, if it were that dangerous or illegal, it would be by prescription only. You are seeing some benefits in your breathing when using the product. The issue here is marketing not use. And you are not in any way committing perjury unless you are under oath in a court of law or signing an affadavid, trust me.

[dashforce]

I agree that it isn't necessarily dangerous when used by a competent, healthy individual. Personally I think that it's irresponsible of the FDA to ban its use as a fat-burner; the obesity epidemic in the US is far greater of a health risk. Exercise and diet are a better solution, but banning sale of ECA stacks certainly doesn't help.

The following makes me wonder if ephedrine really is going away:
[ QUOTE ]

FDA Statement

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Statement
August 21, 2006


Media Inquiries:
Heidi Valetkevitch,301-827-6242
Consumer Inquiries:
888-INFO-FDA

FDA Statement on Tenth Circuit’s Ruling to Uphold FDA Decision Banning Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids

Background: On Aug. 17, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit in Denver upheld the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) final rule declaring all dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated, and therefore illegal for marketing in the United States, reversing a decision by the District Court of Utah.

The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals' ruling demonstrates the soundness of FDA's decision to ban dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids, consistent with the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994. The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals also found that Congress clearly required FDA to conduct a risk-benefit analysis under DSHEA.

FDA conducted an exhaustive and highly resource-intensive evaluation of the relevant scientific data evidence on ephedrine alkaloids before issuing its final rule, which became effective in 2004. The court found that the 133,000-page administrative record compiled by FDA supports the agency's findings that dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids pose an unreasonable risk of illness or injury to users, especially those suffering from heart disease and high blood pressure.

No dosage of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids is safe and the sale of these products in the United States is illegal and subject to FDA enforcement action.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01434.html

So maybe it is going to be by prescription only -- this is from August of this year. Not sure.

The issue may be marketing, but the use is monitored as well. My purchases at Walmart are all recorded by my driver's license number - and that's plenty to make me nervous. I'll have to review the document, but I am pretty sure that every time I purchase my Primatene, Walmart ends up with a piece of paper with my signature that includes the words "Under Penalty of Law." I know that's not technically perjury, but I'm sure it could still get me in trouble.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that it isn't necessarily dangerous when used by a competent, healthy individual. Personally I think that it's irresponsible of the FDA to ban its use as a fat-burner; the obesity epidemic in the US is far greater of a health risk. Exercise and diet are a better solution, but banning sale of ECA stacks certainly doesn't help.

The following makes me wonder if ephedrine really is going away:
[ QUOTE ]

FDA Statement

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Statement
August 21, 2006


Media Inquiries:
Heidi Valetkevitch,301-827-6242
Consumer Inquiries:
888-INFO-FDA

FDA Statement on Tenth Circuit’s Ruling to Uphold FDA Decision Banning Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedrine Alkaloids

Background: On Aug. 17, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit in Denver upheld the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) final rule declaring all dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids adulterated, and therefore illegal for marketing in the United States, reversing a decision by the District Court of Utah.

The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals' ruling demonstrates the soundness of FDA's decision to ban dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids, consistent with the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994. The Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals also found that Congress clearly required FDA to conduct a risk-benefit analysis under DSHEA.

FDA conducted an exhaustive and highly resource-intensive evaluation of the relevant scientific data evidence on ephedrine alkaloids before issuing its final rule, which became effective in 2004. The court found that the 133,000-page administrative record compiled by FDA supports the agency's findings that dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids pose an unreasonable risk of illness or injury to users, especially those suffering from heart disease and high blood pressure.

No dosage of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids is safe and the sale of these products in the United States is illegal and subject to FDA enforcement action.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01434.html

So maybe it is going to be by prescription only -- this is from August of this year. Not sure.

The issue may be marketing, but the use is monitored as well. My purchases at Walmart are all recorded by my driver's license number - and that's plenty to make me nervous. I'll have to review the document, but I am pretty sure that every time I purchase my Primatene, Walmart ends up with a piece of paper with my signature that includes the words "Under Penalty of Law." I know that's not technically perjury, but I'm sure it could still get me in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless what you signed was noterized, it's not a legal document in a court of law in the US.

[dashforce]

Do you mean that it's not permissible as evidence? Or that one can't be held legally responsible for a "contract" that isn't notarized?

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean that it's not permissible as evidence? Or that one can't be held legally responsible for a "contract" that isn't notarized?

[/ QUOTE ]

A contract is one thing, an admission of intent is another. Let's put it like this, the FBI isn't going to bust your door down because you used ephedrine as a fat loss supplement.

[Kotik]

um, sorry to break this up boys but I have a question...

...do green tea pills have caffiene? if so, how much do they have, and if its enough, can I take it with ephedrine to increase the fat burning?

[dashforce]

Lol lol

[ QUOTE ]
the FBI isn't going to bust your door down because you used ephedrine as a fat loss supplement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny coincidence -- "they" just might, actually. My Dad is FBI and would probably not be very happy if he found out that I was taking a "fat loss pill" -- he's an old-fashioned kinda guy.

Point taken, though. Sorry about being a bit argumentative -- I was actually on an E/C buzz at the moment and I tend to get a little... weird I guess. I'm starting to build some tolerance, though. The first few days were pretty interesting.

Kotik - some green tea pills do have caffeine, some don't. You just have to read the labels and see if they have it listed -- there are a billion brands. I get mine at Sam's club, and they have 50 mg caffeine each.

My E/C stack is as follows:
2 x 12.5 mg ephedrine (Primatene tabs)
1 x 200 mg caffeine (generic, $3.99 for 100 pills)
1 x green tea pills (with 50 mg caffeine)

That makes 25 mg ephedrine and 250 mg caffeine, which is the optimum ratio for fat burning. I do it 2 or 3 times daily with 3 or 4 hours in between. I don't take it after about 5 pm to make sure I can sleep.

E/C isn't for everyone -- I highly recommend that you make sure your blood pressure is okay first and monitor it closely during your first week at least. I don't recommend heavy training until you start to build a tolerance to the stimulant effects. Don't start off at full dosage -- work your way into it. Half dosage for the first week or so. Don't exceed 75 mg ephedrine / day. And you probably will want to "ease" your way off it, too, as I've heard that the withdrawal symptoms can be brutal. Further, be cautious of very long-term use or high dosages as ephedrine has been shown to have some level (although very small) of neurotoxicity.

I've only been on it 1.5 weeks or so, so I'm not sure how effective it is for me. The above is just from my experience so far and the research I've done.

[Kotik]

I am going to try and get some green tea caps with enough caffiene to compliment my EC stack.

Since I don't consciously feel the effects of ephedrine, I have a bad habbit of jumping into it, and never tapering. I have never felt stimulant effects from it. I have never had any withdrawl symptoms either. that I know of. maybe something did happen and I attributed it to something else.

okay good stuff...thanks guys!

[Studdabaker]

diddymus (or anyone that uses Bronkaid for their ECA stack) I see that it comes in an 25 mg coated caplet and is much cheaper than the other brands. With my stack I do 12.5 Ephredra & 100 Caff. Does it seem to you that the coated caplets could be easly cut in two?

[RawIron]

After trying things out and reading labels I've come to the conclusion that all fat burners are Green Tea with added vitamins. Drink green tea! It is cheap, the main ingredient in fat burners, and has many other great benefits including helping to rid your body of toxins like mercury. Back when things contained ephedra it was a different story... but now, nothing beats green tea.

Like Axilleus said "Chromium Picolinate is a good fat burner." This is very true and I take it with green tea when I'm on a cut.

Check the ingredients on your fat burners.. You will see green tea and chromium are the main ingredients..... and I really doubt those Sjdskdfhhga tree roots that appear on most labels actually do anything!

[DirtbagDan]

[ QUOTE ]

Check the ingredients on your fat burners.. You will see green tea and chromium are the main ingredients..... and I really doubt those Sjdskdfhhga tree roots that appear on most labels actually do anything!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. They don't do anything.

The only thing that has ever been proven to work (and work very effectively) in countless tests is Ephedrine in the ECA stack. Actually, the majority of the tests have been done without the Aspirin component, as they have found Aspirin's effect on the stack is nothing significant. I use Ephedrine with caffeine and it works just fine.

[John Black]

For those of you that purchase Primatene go here:

https://j.ovm1.net/wch1/universalreg/Reg...&p=PRI06001 (https://j.ovm1.net/wch1/universalreg/Registration.aspx?reg=true&product=pr&c=1251&s=01& p=PRI06001)

For your free $2 off printable coupon.

Final cost for 60 tablets at Walmart = $6.37 plus sales tax. Pretty good price.