Can We Gain Muscle on a Caloric Deficit?

[Venom]

Many athletes repeat the mantra over and over again that you cannot gain muscle on a cut. Is this correct? Or is it possible for athletes to gain muscle on a caloric deficit?

Some things to consider:

1. We often focus on diet, but are there other factors which stop people from gaining muscle on a cut, compared to a bulk? If so, what factors?
2. What is the role of training experience in determining whether you can gain muscle on a caloric deficit?

I would highly advise reading this article, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/hpresearch.php and these interviews, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/hpinterview.php

Some really cool evidence is shown on this topic!

[pkq]

Amazing.
I was just going to post a question about this.
I was concerned that my progress was "too good" and therefore not accurate. For the last few weeks I have been taking the largest of the 3 caliper measurements (and sometimes tacking on a mm to that)

Everywhere i read, it was not possible to lose fat and gain muscle. The idea behind that theory makes sense. One requires a calorie deficit, and one requires a calorie surplus.
However sometimes practical applications of theories provide unexpected results.

I realize I have made some drastic lifestyle changes, but i still didn't believe it possible.

I realize now if I continue my post will get long and uninteresting.

I have been using the Cutting Challenge word document, and following the contest rules (except posting my journal).
If you MODS want the data when I am done I can certainly provide it.

[rickck48]

I read the 2 articles you have here and they were smiple enough for lamen as myself. Great job and the interviews were really good, make sme think about at my age there is a chance i could do the challenge next time. Thanks so much for your efforts here. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[book]

I believe you can due to Nutrient Partitioning BUT when you get into too much of an excess no matter how well your diet/supplements are you cannot gain muscle. For me I find -500 is this point (and when I get lower the 10%).

[kokokolo]

to do both at the same time, basically you have to be really good, and really determined.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
to do both at the same time, basically you have to be really good, and really determined.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this quote a lot. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ShowKidd]

how much HMB do you recomend daily?

[Ignoramus]

man im so glad u posted this. i was pretty devastated when i came to the conclusion that you cant have the best of both worlds.

[dashforce]

I think I might have gained muscle and lost fat this month. Just had my Bod Pod appointment, and according to it I've lost about 4 lbs fat and lost 1 pound LBM. (I know what you're thinking -- hold on a minute and let me explain).

In the time span between the last checkup and this one, I've done close to 4 weeks on the Anabolic Diet, a cyclical low-carb diet. Last BF test, I was eating moderate carb with dextrose/malto PWO, so my glycogen stores were probably moderate to high. This test was done on day 4 of carb depletion (after chest, back, arms, and immediately after legs day) so my glycogen stores + the water they hold were probably pretty much gone.

However, despite glycogen depletion, almost all my measurements went up compared to last month (except waist of course) which indicates to me that I probably didn't lose much (or maybe any?) muscle in that 1 lb LBM, but instead that it was probably reflected in glycogen and water loss.

So... let's see if this is reasonable:

[ QUOTE ]
Normal muscle glycogen stores of the general population are approximately 70-90 mmol.kg-1 wet weight.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0035.htm

So let's say 80 mmol/kg wet weight. For me, that's 80*10^-3*(166/2.2) = 6.036 mol glycogen. 6.036 mol * 162 g/mol gives 978 g glycogen -- a little over 2 lbs. I'm not sure if that "wet weight" is correct (I just used BW - maybe LBM is more appropriate) so I'll try again with a different approach:

[ QUOTE ]
Glycogen makes up about 1-2% of muscle weight and 6-10% of liver weight. Although the liver has a higher concentration of glycogen than muscle there is more glycogen stored in muscle tissue because muscle tissue is more abundant than liver tissue. The average person would store about 400 grams of glycogen in their muscles and 100 grams in their liver. Since 1 gram of carbohydrate contains 4 Calories, the body stores approximately 2000 Calories in the form of muscle and liver glycogen...

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http://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sportscience/Supercompensation.htm

So let's say I had 500 grams total glycogen, but was 80% depleted at the point of the test, so that's 400 grams difference.

[ QUOTE ]
every gram of glycogen is stored with approximately 3 grams of water

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13. Brooks G, Fahey T. Exercise Physiology. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co. 1984.

so 400 grams + 1200 g water = 1600 g mass difference. That's about 3.5 pounds -- so it's possible that in the last month I've lost 4 pounds fat while adding as much as 2.5 pounds LBM.

Does that sound about right?

[Venom]

Good job, bro!

I think the most valid measurement, would be to test yourself in a similar condition as before. That will tease out the variability, best. But yeah, I have seen people who are on low carb diets, often be underestimated for muscle mass on body fat measurements.

[dashforce]

Okay, "Bod Pod" results this time around say that (over my 8 week experiment on the AD) I have lost 4 lbs of fat and gained 1 lb of muscle. Mid-November to mid-December in particular, I gained 2 lbs muscle and lost 0.3 lbs fat (if that is all within the accuracy of this machine).

Of course, this could also be just the tail-end of my "newbie gains" or due to changes in training, etc. My LBM increase was probably even more than the 1 lb reflected overall because that first month (where I lost 1 lb LBM) also included the changover from a normal carb diet to a carb and glycogen - depleted state, and as I showed about that could possible account for as much as 3 extra pounds LBM or more.

So, theoretically, comparing carbed up to carbed up states, I could have done as well as gained 5 pounds muscle while losing 4 pounds fat. In only 8 weeks time, I would consider that not only substantial, but ground-breaking. Hopefully we'll get updates from others that are cutting on the AD (Venom for sure -- not sure if Calvin is using the AD to bulk or cut) and see if they're able to put on LBM during their cuts as well.

[Venom]

Congratulations!

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully we'll get updates from others that are cutting on the AD (Venom for sure -- not sure if Calvin is using the AD to bulk or cut) and see if they're able to put on LBM during their cuts as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely am.

I am convinced you can do it. I have this cut.

I’ll give summary results as always, but I am happy with my progress.

The more I study, the more I am against diets where you get fat. I just think it is completely inefficient. People end up consuming "empty calories" that do nothing for them but add fat.

I think a lot of the reason people don't gain muscle on a cut, is because they don't believe they can. Sounds simple, but there is a boat load of evidence backing up how much your self efficacy can impact your performance and behaviors.

I don't want to get into this too much now though, but soon. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Calvin]

[ QUOTE ]
not sure if Calvin is using the AD to bulk or cut) and see if they're able to put on LBM during their cuts as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've just been focusing on doing the AD- eating what whatever felt decent. So far, my weight has been going down about a pound a week.
I've been traveling for a week or so, and when I get back I'm starting a serious cut. I'm going to redo the 12 day no-carb start up for the beginning, then track clories and cycle them pretty tightly.

[dalvare1]

yeah this always confused me. Assuming I have a RMR of around 2400 cals, then I could eat this everyday and be in a calorie deficit:

200g Protein
200g Carbs
50g Fat

that seems like more then enough macronutrients to build muscle. You could also do lower carbs and bump the protein to 300 grams while dropping carbs to 100g, which isnt that low compared to some diets.

I personally think you CAN build muscle on a calorie deficit

[Kasaz]

I'm not sure if I can go back 10 months or so on a search but I kept a pretty detailed journal where I lost 20+ pounds and added a good amount of muscle and strength.

[Kasaz]

Found it I think if the link works.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sho...page=41#1091956 (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1091956&an=0&page=41#109 1956)

[R.A.D.]

This is great news!
Since beggining of the year, waist went down a lot, while my weight stayed more less the same, and in my crazy mind i already started to wonder wtf am i doing wrong, and what is wrong with me. Now I see that I might have put on some LBM, while loosing FAT.

[TForce]

I think there are more factors involved than what have been listed on this topic. When I first came to ABC, I did pretty well gaining muscle on a cutting diet. 1) I was very determined to have the best of both worlds, but also 2) I think there was a lot of muscle memory involved. I had not worked out with weights in quite a while, muscles were very undeveloped. Not sure, but when the muscles atrophy, do the fibers shrink or evaporate?

I believe that for circumstances such as these that I experienced, it is very possible to gain muscle on a cut, possibly even for someone who has no muscle memory to call upon, since the fibers that they do have are still undeveloped. However, I really believe that there reaches a point where your body will plateau much sooner than if you were on a bulking diet and you would be forced to up your cals to keep up the progress, or simply your progress will be very slow. For someone who has already been bulking and cutting in the traditional manner, any LBM gains attempted on a cutting diet would be very minimal. While the Law of Caloric Surplus/Deficit may not be completely etched in stone, I believe the basic concepts stand true, as evidenced by any hardcore bodybuilder vs. fitness expert.