At what point?

[rnunez03]

I have been reading this book on Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem and I am kind of stumped on a point. I was reading about infants born in sin. Wayne Grudem says that at the point of conception we are at imnety with God. he uses Psalm 51:5, and Psalm 58:3 as the reference for this. He believes that if this is the case, then a child who dies before he has an opportunity to hear the Gospel, he is saved only by Christ's redemptive work. I know that it is similar to an adult being saved, but the difference is that the adult hears and responds in faith, yet the child does not. I need help understanding this.

[jeffrobodean]

Read Matthew on Jesus' feeling toward children.
Back in his day, children were regarded as less than 'important' or 'worthy' I guess of the right to be involved in discussions about God or politics or whatever. As the children flocked to Jesus, the adults there rebuked them. Jesus said this:

"1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. " MATTHEW 18:1-5

And this:
"13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there. " MATTHEW 19:13-14

[rnunez03]

Now when he says that unless we should change and become like little children, what do you interpret that to mean?

[jeffrobodean]

I think it means that we should have an innocence about us in believing and having faith. Can you not tell a child something, anything and as you are an adult, especially if you are a parent, your child will wholeheartedly believe you.
I know I could probably tell my 4 year old daughter just about anything, and she would believe it to be true. She believes in me, what I say to be true and trusts me 100% that I would never steer her wrong.
I think that's what Jesus wants from us. To fully believe in Him and His Word, 100% - be like children listening to our Father.
But, as a father, if some other adult came along and taught your child that smoking or shoplifting isn't so bad, would you not want that person's head? I think that's the point Jesus is making - if you do that to one of these (MY) children, woe is you when it's time to come and see me.
When he was giving this lesson, he was actually sitting in an olive garden where the press is to make the oil. The mill stone is this HUGE wheel, or donut shaped stone that was used to crush the hard outer shell of the olives. It probably weighed at least 500 pounds or more. This was right next to the Sea of Galillee, so when he said that, it really drove home the image of what is to come to you if you lead children astray.
I think until Children are old enough to understand the concept of right and wrong and consequences of their behaviors, Jesus does not hold their sin against them in the sense that they will be eternally punished for it. Once they come of age and understand their sin, they need to make the choice to follow Him or not. Then they will have to understand that there are consequences to pay for their actions.

[wb4revival]

rnunez03:

The eastern orthodox church has never accepted the doctrine of original sin. I know how controversial this subject is as I am a minister that has broken away from my own previous teaching on the subject.

I have a personal study that I would be willing to share with you if you desire it. My grandfather was an ordained Methodist minister, my father, an uncle and a brother were also ministers that all taught/believed in the DOOS. After much study I have come to a different conclusion.

Let me know if you want it and I will send it to you. It explains all the "controversial" scriptures including psalm 51 (David's penitential prayer), psalm 53 and Romans chapter 5.

respectfully,
W.B.

[l0stsheep]

Check out this article:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2004/002/15.22.html

[rnunez03]

[ QUOTE ]
rnunez03:

The eastern orthodox church has never accepted the doctrine of original sin. I know how controversial this subject is as I am a minister that has broken away from my own previous teaching on the subject.

I have a personal study that I would be willing to share with you if you desire it. My grandfather was an ordained Methodist minister, my father, an uncle and a brother were also ministers that all taught/believed in the DOOS. After much study I have come to a different conclusion.

Let me know if you want it and I will send it to you. It explains all the "controversial" scriptures including psalm 51 (David's penitential prayer), psalm 53 and Romans chapter 5.

respectfully,
W.B.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be interested in this study.

[rnunez03]

[ QUOTE ]
Check out this article:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2004/002/15.22.html

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what he is saying but my wonder is this, If we are in sin from the moment we are concieved, then the only way a infant can be given a way is through God's grace apart from the Gospel, am I misunderstanding Psalm 51? The reason this is important to me, is because it leads to understanding where people who have never heard of the Gospel stand before God when they die. Is this same Grace offered to them?

[wb4revival]

Consider the context of psalm 51. It is a prayer of repentance. David cannot be offering an excuse for his sins. That would be contrary to the concept of repentance. We must acknowledge full guilt in order to find mercy. Proverbs 28:14 says "whosoever covereth his sins shall not prosper; whosoever confesseth AND forsaketh them shall have mercy" (paraphrased from memory with emphasis added).

We cannot blame our parents OR Adam for our sins. We must accept full responsibility when we confess. The language in the 5th verse cannot be taken literally anymore than the language in the next few verses that mention God "breaking his bones". It is however a poetic expression of David's deep guilt.

rnunez03: It has occured to me that neither one of us have sufficient posts here to PM one another.

Would someone with >150 posts be willing to be a "go-between" for rnunez and myself???

It is refreshing to see that people still "hunger and thirst after righteousness" and Jesus' promise is that "they shall be filled".

All glory to the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

W.B.

[wb4revival]

As far as God's grace for those that never heard the gospel... we know that God is just and righteous. We may never have all the answers, but we surely can trust God to do the right (righteous) thing. "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?"

God has given us a conscience to guide us. It is an "inner-witness" to truth and will be faithful as long as we "listen" and obey it. When we don't listen to it, we "harden our heart" and "sear our conscience" over. God will judge accordingly. He knows our thoughts and the intents of our hearts.

I have found Him to be totally trustworthy, faithful and just. I simply trust Him in those areas that I do not understand.

However, it is good to ask these questions. We must search for the truth out of our love for God.

W.B.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been reading this book on Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem and I am kind of stumped on a point. I was reading about infants born in sin. Wayne Grudem says that at the point of conception we are at imnety with God. he uses Psalm 51:5, and Psalm 58:3 as the reference for this. He believes that if this is the case, then a child who dies before he has an opportunity to hear the Gospel, he is saved only by Christ's redemptive work. I know that it is similar to an adult being saved, but the difference is that the adult hears and responds in faith, yet the child does not. I need help understanding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Different denominations have differing opinions on this topic. I know that most southern baptist ones feel the same as this guy, but many including my denomination have a term called "age of accountability" that absolves children of so-called original sin. Basically when a child is old enough to understand sin and Jesus he/she is to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. If he didn't then he would go to hell if he died.

EDIT: the picture in your avatar is freaking me out a little bit.

[rnunez03]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have been reading this book on Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem and I am kind of stumped on a point. I was reading about infants born in sin. Wayne Grudem says that at the point of conception we are at imnety with God. he uses Psalm 51:5, and Psalm 58:3 as the reference for this. He believes that if this is the case, then a child who dies before he has an opportunity to hear the Gospel, he is saved only by Christ's redemptive work. I know that it is similar to an adult being saved, but the difference is that the adult hears and responds in faith, yet the child does not. I need help understanding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Different denominations have differing opinions on this topic. I know that most southern baptist ones feel the same as this guy, but many including my denomination have a term called "age of accountability" that absolves children of so-called original sin. Basically when a child is old enough to understand sin and Jesus he/she is to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. If he didn't then he would go to hell if he died.

EDIT: the picture in your avatar is freaking me out a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to have scripture to back that up. Not because I do not believe you, but because so often we fall into this pattern of allowing our "denominations" to tell us what is to be believed instead the word.I have heard of the age of accountability it and I think it is at about 6 or 7 years old. But what I would like help with is seeing where the Word stands on this issue.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]


I would really like to have scripture to back that up. Not because I do not believe you, but because so often we fall into this pattern of allowing our "denominations" to tell us what is to be believed instead the word.I have heard of the age of accountability it and I think it is at about 6 or 7 years old. But what I would like help with is seeing where the Word stands on this issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm certainly not a biblical scholar and just remember the gist of it from Sunday School. I'm sure there are others here that can offer you more of a bible based interpretation.

[wb4revival]

The "Age of Accountability"
The term "age of accountability" is not used in the Bible. Nevertheless, the doctrine of an age or a time when men become accountable for their actions is clearly taught in the Bible. What is meant by this term is that children cannot be accountable for their actions until they have a knowledge of good and evil, until they know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
We know that children are not sinners at birth; for if they were, there could be no such thing as an "age of accountability." If babies are guilty and condemned for the sin of Adam from birth, then there is no room for them to reach a certain age before they become accountable. They are guilty and under God's wrath from birth. However, the Bible teaches that babies do not inherit sin and guilt from Adam. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Rom. 9:11. Jacob and Esau did not sin with Adam when he transgressed. We know this because they were not sinners while in the womb of their mother, Rebecca. Since the Bible says they had done nothing good or evil up to this time, we must assume that they became moral agents at some later time, after they were born. There are numerous verses like this in the Bible which teach, either directly or indirectly, the doctrine of an "age of accountability."

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deut. 1:39

For before the children shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Isaiah 7:16

I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Gen. 8:21

Deut. 1:39 speaks of the "little ones" and the "children" who "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil." Isaiah 7:16 speaks of a child coming to an age when he knows to "refuse the evil, and choose the good." Both of these texts speak of children coming to a time in their lives when they have a knowledge of the moral character of their actions and know there is evil which they ought to refuse and good which they ought to choose. Neither of these verses gives a certain age at which moral agency begins. This is because there is no fixed age at which children become accountable, since reason will develop earlier in one child than another according to his gifts and circumstances. But when a child's reason has developed to the point that he knows to "refuse the evil and choose the good," he becomes a moral agent and is accountable for his deeds.

This possession of moral knowledge or understanding is absolutely necessary before there can be accountability. A child must know the moral character of his actions before he can be responsible for them.

Some advocates of original sin have objected that the government of God would be unjust if children were made accountable for their actions at a tender age when they would not be able easily to withstand temptation. They have used this objection as an excuse for maintaining the doctrine of original sin. This kind of logic is absurd. For, according to the doctrine of original sin, children are guilty and under the wrath of God from birth, without any probation. It is hard to understand how the advocates of original sin can swallow whole the injustice of being born in a state of guilt and condemnation, and yet quibble over the supposed injustice of becoming accountable at a tender age. This amounts to swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat.

With God, there can be no such thing as a "tender age" in the sense of an unjust age at which children become responsible. God alone knows and is the judge of when a child reaches the "age of accountability." He alone knows the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. And, knowing that God is just, we know that God will not work unrighteousness in this respect. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25. Those who make this objection seem to feel that God cannot be trusted with what is unknown to us. But he can be trusted. God is just in all his judgments. The accountability or non-accountability of every child is perfectly known to God. He "searches the reins and hearts" of all men. He discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart." He will bring to light the "hidden things of darkness" and judge the "secrets of men" in truth and righteousness.

The advocates of original sin need not fear that God will unjustly make children accountable at too early an age. He can be trusted to judge righteously with the hidden things of the heart. Truth, justice, and equity are the foundations of his throne. I Cor. 4:5, Rev. 2:23, Heb. 4:12-13, Eccl. 12:14, Rom. 2:15-16.

Hope this helps.

W.B.

[rnunez03]

[ QUOTE ]
The "Age of Accountability"
The term "age of accountability" is not used in the Bible. Nevertheless, the doctrine of an age or a time when men become accountable for their actions is clearly taught in the Bible. What is meant by this term is that children cannot be accountable for their actions until they have a knowledge of good and evil, until they know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
We know that children are not sinners at birth; for if they were, there could be no such thing as an "age of accountability." If babies are guilty and condemned for the sin of Adam from birth, then there is no room for them to reach a certain age before they become accountable. They are guilty and under God's wrath from birth. However, the Bible teaches that babies do not inherit sin and guilt from Adam. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Rom. 9:11. Jacob and Esau did not sin with Adam when he transgressed. We know this because they were not sinners while in the womb of their mother, Rebecca. Since the Bible says they had done nothing good or evil up to this time, we must assume that they became moral agents at some later time, after they were born. There are numerous verses like this in the Bible which teach, either directly or indirectly, the doctrine of an "age of accountability."

Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deut. 1:39

For before the children shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Isaiah 7:16

I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Gen. 8:21

Deut. 1:39 speaks of the "little ones" and the "children" who "in that day had no knowledge between good and evil." Isaiah 7:16 speaks of a child coming to an age when he knows to "refuse the evil, and choose the good." Both of these texts speak of children coming to a time in their lives when they have a knowledge of the moral character of their actions and know there is evil which they ought to refuse and good which they ought to choose. Neither of these verses gives a certain age at which moral agency begins. This is because there is no fixed age at which children become accountable, since reason will develop earlier in one child than another according to his gifts and circumstances. But when a child's reason has developed to the point that he knows to "refuse the evil and choose the good," he becomes a moral agent and is accountable for his deeds.

This possession of moral knowledge or understanding is absolutely necessary before there can be accountability. A child must know the moral character of his actions before he can be responsible for them.

Some advocates of original sin have objected that the government of God would be unjust if children were made accountable for their actions at a tender age when they would not be able easily to withstand temptation. They have used this objection as an excuse for maintaining the doctrine of original sin. This kind of logic is absurd. For, according to the doctrine of original sin, children are guilty and under the wrath of God from birth, without any probation. It is hard to understand how the advocates of original sin can swallow whole the injustice of being born in a state of guilt and condemnation, and yet quibble over the supposed injustice of becoming accountable at a tender age. This amounts to swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat.

With God, there can be no such thing as a "tender age" in the sense of an unjust age at which children become responsible. God alone knows and is the judge of when a child reaches the "age of accountability." He alone knows the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. And, knowing that God is just, we know that God will not work unrighteousness in this respect. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25. Those who make this objection seem to feel that God cannot be trusted with what is unknown to us. But he can be trusted. God is just in all his judgments. The accountability or non-accountability of every child is perfectly known to God. He "searches the reins and hearts" of all men. He discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart." He will bring to light the "hidden things of darkness" and judge the "secrets of men" in truth and righteousness.

The advocates of original sin need not fear that God will unjustly make children accountable at too early an age. He can be trusted to judge righteously with the hidden things of the heart. Truth, justice, and equity are the foundations of his throne. I Cor. 4:5, Rev. 2:23, Heb. 4:12-13, Eccl. 12:14, Rom. 2:15-16.

Hope this helps.

W.B.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. Thanks for your input on this subject.

[wb4revival]

rnunez03:

My last post was slightly edited but was from a book by Alfred Overstreet. You can find it at

www.gospeltruth.net (http://www.gospeltruth.net)

God Bless
W.B.

[wb4revival]

I apologize for not citing the book to begin with... my intention was to be helpful, not to take credit for his thoughts.

W.B.

[rnunez03]

no problem /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif