Discussion: Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[tetz8again]

I mean, I'm totally against steroids in MOST situations(anything competitive like bodybuilding, cycling, highschool/college sports, the Olympics, etc.)

And I'm completely for all the great supplements that most of us here take like Whey, creatine, etc.

Many people on here feel that steroids are cheating, or that people who take them are weak minded because they are unnatural.

However, all of us here use supplements to help us get to our goals faster.

There is a difference between steroids and supplements, like whey, for instance. Steroids are extremely bad for you, especially if you haven't done the research and aren't having blood tests done. Steroids are said to be unnatural. While whey IS natural supposedly, and safe.

But they have a lot of similarities. They are both used by people who are in sports or competitive things that want to become better or bigger. They both do make you better. They both are used to give you an edge.

What I really don't get is, how one thing can be considered unnatural and another thing that is ultimately used for the same purpose(to achieve goals faster/get better faster)be considered natural. Who is to say that steroids are unnatural. I mean, when you break them down, they are just atoms like you and me and whey and creatine and everything else in this world. How can someone say that anything on Earth is unnatural?

It's like kids playing game and one kid thinks he has the power to make up new rules as the game goes along about what is fair and what isn't fair. So why are our supplements fair and steroids not fair?

[klosey]

as i am aware some steroids are natural they are made up of trans ring plant extracts. but if you looked at it like that technically supplements are cheating cause with them you dont need to comsume as much food for vital acids, protein etc... but really all supplements do is help speed up progress about 10% but, and here is the but, supplements are only effective when everything else is in check. diet, recover and exercise..... yet i know people on steroids who eat cheese burgers and cake yet are still cut because steroids change the bodies mapping for how it deals with carbs etc

[Awesome]

They're not available to those of us who want to do it legally.

[klosey]

[ QUOTE ]
They're not available to those of us who want to do it legally.

[/ QUOTE ]

this one i dont understand here is a fact for everyone more people would die in a year from alcohol abuse and smokin than people have ever died from using steroids hmmmm and which are legal again lol

[JohnCrab]

Steroids unnaturally increase the amount of testosterone in your body, whereas sound diet and the use of creatine, whey, vitamins, and other supplements merely put your body into optimal performance. Steroids = unnatural increase. Supplements = optimally performing body. Supplements are more effective than just food, but still natural. That's my opinion anyway.

[klosey]

[ QUOTE ]
Steroids unnaturally increase the amount of testosterone in your body, whereas sound diet and the use of creatine, whey, vitamins, and other supplements merely put your body into optimal performance. Steroids = unnatural increase. Supplements = optimally performing body. Supplements are more effective than just food, but still natural. That's my opinion anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

think the answer is each to there own. if someone uses them and admits it the big up to them.... but i cant stand people who use it in secret and try say they gained through hard work....

many supplements are just concentrated levels of what you would get in food anyway.... but that could be argueed steroids are concentrated levels of whats in the body??? hmm no correct answer

[Buffysboy]

JohnCrab said it. Taking steroids is very very harmful as well, results kidney failure, liver damage, impotence (shrunken testicles to the size of peanuts once you are off steroids, unable of getting eraction for the rest of your life), vascular plague and ultimately results in heart attacks and death and much more.

Bodybuilding is like many other sports, supposed to improve the quality of life. Steroids violate this ideology and is therefore considered illegal, and taking them would be cheating in my eyes.

But then again I don't really care.

[Hells Fire]

I think calling steroids or supplements "natural" is a stretch. Sifting the whey out of processed mozarella cheese and doctoring it up in a lab to make whey protein powder doesn't seem especially natural. Let's have a look at the ingredients in my ON protein: whey protein isolate, whey protein concentrate, whey peptides, cocoa (processed with alkali), natural and artificial flavor, lecithin, salt, sucralose, acesulfame potassium. It doesn't sound "natural" to me.

[Zee-German]

I personally cannot stand Whey, Creatine, Glutamine at all. I hate all those supplements, but i take them for easy consumption of proteins and such. I dont find it cheating, but instead of whey and supplements, id rather still to all natural stuff, like steaks, chicken, eggs, real food that taste good.

I hate whey and supplements because they taste so...industrialized.

[tetz8again]

First of all, I'd like to say that I respect all your opinions.

Second of all, When I made this topic I wasn't really sure exactly where it was going to go. I wish I had made the topic title different, because I think we can ALL agree that steroids ARE cheating simply because they are against the rules. We all know that. I would like to sway away from that and what I really want to focus on is why if things are "natural" it sounds like they are great for you and you should be doing it that way. But if something is unnatural, it is all of a sudden the worst thing in the world?

I think Whey is just as natural as Testosterone, and just as natural as both of those is Merry Juana. (had to spell it wrong because it's a banned word)


Another question is where do we draw the line at for what is considered natural and what isn't? Some of you might say the obvious: if it's made by nature it's natural.

But those same people would probably consider a cheeseburger to be natural. They are made by all natural ingredients, right? But a cheeseburger is made by a human. They don't just fall out of the sky. So why aren't you pissed off at the bodybuilders who eat cheeseburgers to gain muscle? The cheeseburger was made by people using ingredients just like steroids are and just like whey is.

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling steroids or supplements "natural" is a stretch. Sifting the whey out of processed mozarella cheese and doctoring it up in a lab to make whey protein powder doesn't seem especially natural. Let's have a look at the ingredients in my ON protein: whey protein isolate, whey protein concentrate, whey peptides, cocoa (processed with alkali), natural and artificial flavor, lecithin, salt, sucralose, acesulfame potassium. It doesn't sound "natural" to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! We are drawing our lines at the same place, inbetween what is actually made by nature and what isn't made in nature.

But there are people who draw their lines right in the middle of the unnaturals. What I mean is, they say "hey, a cheeseburger is fair, but steroids aren't because I can't buy steroids at Mcdonalds."

[tetz8again]

How do you guys feel about my opinions, and can you back up yours(especially JohnCrab) so that I can better understand why you think the way you do on this subject? Because John, I completely respect your opinions, but I totally disagree with them and I don't fully understand them.

I mean, if I made one or two people change their mind about this subject and agree with me, I would be happy. But if I didn't, I would atleast want to be able to FULLY understand your guys thinking. If I don't get the former or the latter, than this discussion was a complete waste of time for me.

Specifically, John, you could tell me what you think natural means. I can see where you are drawing your line, but just given the info you've given me, I can't understand why for example, you think supplements are natural while steroids aren't.

[ QUOTE ]
Steroids unnaturally increase the amount of testosterone in your body, whereas sound diet and the use of creatine, whey, vitamins, and other supplements merely put your body into optimal performance. Steroids = unnatural increase. Supplements = optimally performing body. Supplements are more effective than just food, but still natural. That's my opinion anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I read your post, I can easily use the transitive property to come to the solution that Supplements = steroids. For example, if steroids = unnatural increase and supplements = optimally performing body, and unnatural increase = optimally performing body, so supplements = steroids. Meaning that supplements aren't actually a steroid, but that they are both unnatuaral and used for the same thing.

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
JohnCrab said it. Taking steroids is very very harmful as well, results kidney failure, liver damage, impotence (shrunken testicles to the size of peanuts once you are off steroids, unable of getting eraction for the rest of your life), vascular plague and ultimately results in heart attacks and death and much more.

Bodybuilding is like many other sports, supposed to improve the quality of life. Steroids violate this ideology and is therefore considered illegal, and taking them would be cheating in my eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything you said here except for the first sentence.

[Awesome]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They're not available to those of us who want to do it legally.

[/ QUOTE ]

this one i dont understand here is a fact for everyone more people would die in a year from alcohol abuse and smokin than people have ever died from using steroids hmmmm and which are legal again lol

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, alcohol HAS been illegal. Secondly, lets compare the number of people who takes steroids and the number of people who drink alcohol? If you set the # of steroids users equal to the number of people who are drinking alcohol, it'd be a different story.

[book]

The reason people consider steroids cheating is because it is the easy way out. My statement does not cover bodybuilders trying to get over 200lb's ripped or hardcore powerlifters trying to push it to the next leve, but for the average gym goer it IS cheating because it only takes a few injections per week (how hard is that?) to get some decent muscularity, which most people who choose the natural route spend hours per week preparing there food, spending money on supplements and getting 8.5 hours of sleep a night.

The myth that people need to still work hard on steroids is a myth - half my gym is on them. While I have seen a few lanky guys who were/are augmented, I have seen guys blow up and shrink but I've also seen many guys start at the gym and 3 months later, after a good long cycle, pressing 220lb's for reps and gaining what looks to be 20-30lb's of muscle. It's almost summer here and I can just imagine when I head into the gym I'll see 3-4 guys pressing 35lb dumbells and then in 2.5 months pressing 85's ripped. Unless they have some insane sort of dedication and knowledge that last for 4-5 months then I doubt they work as hard as a natural lifter.

Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand everything your saying, but what if there was a food with testosterone in it? Then it would be in ourselves and in the food we eat too. Don't a lot of the users drink their steroids in a milkshake? Like that muscular kid that is on tv, his dad fed him "chocolate mystery shakes" as early as he can remember and had him lifting when he was like 2. And I remember seeing someone else who talked about his friends giving him chocolate shakes after he worked out and then he got addicted to taking steroids. Those steroids were in food, does that make those steroids more natural than others?

[ QUOTE ]
Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

We supplement with "Whey Protein Powder", not food. Scientists make this stuff in a lab. They have all these processes where they filter out the proteins and remove lactose and fat, etc, until it isn't even a dairy product anymore, it's just a powder. You can't squeeze powder from a cow. If we wanted to get "natural" protein pwo, we'd be eating eggs and we'd wash it down with milk straight from a cow. Imo, that would be more natural, wouldn't it?

[DirtbagDan]

The majority of steroids out there come from horse urine. That's right, horse piss. That's not natural at all.

And i'm not saying that from a "drinking piss is disgusting" point of view. They extract the testosterone hormones from that. And, book is 100% correct. We arent eating testosterone. We might be eating foods that stimulate the increase of testosterone in our bodies, but we are not sticking extra testosterone in ourselves.

I also don't need to mention the fact that, as many people have said, is the easy way out.

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Supplements, such as whey and creatine, only supplement what is already in our diets - where do you eat testosterone or deca? Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand everything your saying, but what if there was a food with testosterone in it? Then it would be in ourselves and in the food we eat too. Don't a lot of the users drink their steroids in a milkshake? Like that muscular kid that is on tv, his dad fed him "chocolate mystery shakes" as early as he can remember and had him lifting when he was like 2. And I remember seeing someone else ho talked about his friends giving him chocolate shakes after he worked out and then he got addicted to taking steroids. Those steroids were in food, does that make those steroids more natural than others?

Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it
[/b]

[ QUOTE ]
Supplements are natural because they are found within ourselves and in the food we eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

We supplement with "Whey Protein Powder", not food.

Scientists make this stuff in a lab. They have all these processes where they filter out the proteins and remove lactose and fat, etc, until it isn't even a dairy product anymore, it's just a powder. You can't squeeze powder from a cow. If we wanted to get "natural" protein pwo, we'd be eating eggs and we'd wash it down with milk straight from a cow. Imo, that would be more natural, wouldn't it?

PROTEINS are found in food. HORMONES are not. Does the method it is derived matter? Then don't eat cheese/dairy as that is created using scientific knowledge.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of a red herring argument?

I say steroids arent naturally found in food - you say they are if they are put in there. Well...thats a no brainer

Secondly protein is found in food. We are supplementing with protein - does the form it comes in matter? tell me can you directly supplement hormones from food you eat?

You have gone off your original argument saying that whey is now no longer natural because it is "made in a lab" (it isn't firstly, it's made on a production line just like..o wait most meats, dairy and bread products). Just because whey is ultra filtered does not make it unnatural - cheese and yoghurt would also be "unnatural" in that case as specific scientific knowledge is used to create them (as is dehydrated milk and pasturized egg whites).

[tetz8again]

Ok, I'll agree with you there for the most part. You bring up some good points.

What I really want to do is change the subject to something else.

On the Whey tub it even says it has "artificial flavors". Uh-oh, not everything is natural, it must be bad for you. Why is it so important for everything to be natural any way?

They are making some really incredibly accurate synthetic diamonds these days. You could give a girl a fake diamond and she might not know it's fake for the rest of her life. And it would still make her just as happy as if it were real; it had the same effect on her because it is beatiful and represents your love for her.

Now if this girl somehow found out that it was fake, she would be pissed. Why? Because apparently now it isn't about the stone being beautiful, it isn't about the love between you two, it's all of a sudden a horrible present because it isn't natural. Even though it is still as pretty as a real one.

See what I'm saying? What's the big deal here, why does it matter if something is natural or not as long as it does the same thing?

Also, what if tomorrow there is a news story about how scientists have found a way to make a safe steroid, with no more side effects than whey, but that works JUST as good as the old steroids. They say the FDA has decided to make this legal. So then you decide to wait ten years to see if anything bad happens to anybody and it turns out it really is safe. And so now there is a completely safe steroid that pretty much EVERYONE is taking, do you take it or do you not because it isn't "natural"? Do you really care then?

I guess what I'm trying to do is change the argument "I don't take steroids because they aren't natural" to I don't take steroids because they are extremely bad for you and because it has a bad rep."

If there's a really nice girl at your school but everyone in the school think she is easy and everyone says she has diseases and all this stuff. (I know, what a great example, huh?) And you really like her because she's nice to you. You're not going to go out with her because it isn't safe (diseases) and mostly because people will start talking and pretty soon you'll have a bad rep. I think that is why people don't take steroids. Not because it is unnatural, but because it isn't safe and because you care what your peers think of you and your rep could get destroyed if you do take steroids, even though it might be tempting if you are desperate.

And that is why a lot of people who do take them keep it secret, because they have an extremely bad reputation.

Well, keep the discussion goin, but I won't be on for a couple of hours to respond. My families going out to dinner. See ya guys. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it

[/ QUOTE ]

Really fast, vitamins aren't naturally occuring in a multivitamin, but we still eat those.

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll agree with you there for the most part. You bring up some good points.

What I really want to do is change the subject to something else.

On the Whey tub it even says it has "artificial flavors". Uh-oh, not everything is natural, it must be bad for you. Why is it so important for everything to be natural any way?

They are making some really incredibly accurate synthetic diamonds these days. You could give a girl a fake diamond and she might not know it's fake for the rest of her life. And it would still make her just as happy as if it were real; it had the same effect on her because it is beatiful and represents your love for her.

Now if this girl somehow found out that it was fake, she would be pissed. Why? Because apparently now it isn't about the stone being beautiful, it isn't about the love between you two, it's all of a sudden a horrible present because it isn't natural. Even though it is still as pretty as a real one.

See what I'm saying? What's the big deal here, why does it matter if something is natural or not as long as it does the same thing?

Also, what if tomorrow there is a news story about how scientists have found a way to make a safe steroid, with no more side effects than whey, but that works JUST as good as the old steroids. They say the FDA has decided to make this legal. So then you decide to wait ten years to see if anything bad happens to anybody and it turns out it really is safe. And so now there is a completely safe steroid that pretty much EVERYONE is taking, do you take it or do you not because it isn't "natural"? Do you really care then?

I guess what I'm trying to do is change the argument "I don't take steroids because they aren't natural" to I don't take steroids because they are extremely bad for you and because it has a bad rep."

If there's a really nice girl at your school but everyone in the school think she is easy and everyone says she has diseases and all this stuff. (I know, what a great example, huh?) And you really like her because she's nice to you. You're not going to go out with her because it isn't safe (diseases) and mostly because people will start talking and pretty soon you'll have a bad rep. I think that is why people don't take steroids. Not because it is unnatural, but because it isn't safe and because you care what your peers think of you and your rep could get destroyed if you do take steroids, even though it might be tempting if you are desperate.

And that is why a lot of people who do take them keep it secret, because they have an extremely bad reputation.

Well, keep the discussion goin, but I won't be on for a couple of hours to respond. My families going out to dinner. See ya guys. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product. Do ARTIFICIAL FLAVOURS AT ALL go towards anabolism? If we are discussing "natural ingredients" then yeh you could say whey is not completely natural, but we are discussing if steroids are cheating and drawing the line on wether a supplement is natural or not is a key issue. So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude nobody in their right mind would actually drink steroids unless they were in pill form. And your analogy is false, your talking about situations where drugs are put into that persons food - not naturally occuring in it

[/ QUOTE ]

Really fast, vitamins aren't naturally occuring in a multivitamin, but we still eat those.

[/ QUOTE ]

..I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product. Do ARTIFICIAL FLAVOURS AT ALL go towards anabolism? If we are discussing "natural ingredients" then yeh you could say whey is not completely natural, but we are discussing if steroids are cheating and drawing the line on wether a supplement is natural or not is a key issue. So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see the points you're making. You keep saying that steroids are cheating and I already said that they are cheating if they are against the rules. I said in a previous post that I wish I had made the topic title different because that's not what I really wanted to talk about.

I said that a while ago:

[ QUOTE ]
I wish I had made the topic title different, because I think we can ALL agree that steroids ARE cheating simply because they are against the rules. We all know that. I would like to sway away from that and what I really want to focus on is why if things are "natural" it sounds like they are great for you and you should be doing it that way. But if something is unnatural, it is all of a sudden the worst thing in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is why in my last big post I talked about things that you weren't talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
man...your missing the point im making and keep putting up these hypotheticals and examples that do not relate to my statement: Steroids are cheating because they are NOT found naturally in any food product.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I already said before you even posted anything that I think steroids are cheating if they are against rules.




You brought up some interesting things like this:

[ QUOTE ]
but for the average gym goer it IS cheating because it only takes a few injections per week (how hard is that?) to get some decent muscularity, which most people who choose the natural route spend hours per week preparing there food, spending money on supplements and getting 8.5 hours of sleep a night.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I'd like to ask, how can something be cheating if you aren't trying to win something and if there are no contests with rules or anything? For the average gym goer, I suppose that means they go to make themselves look better for personal reasons. And if they take steroids it is definately stupid, but certainly not cheating. It is the easy way, and so what? The only thing I can think of that he is cheating is himself by losing out on the things you gain from training other than muscle like work ethic and dedication. It's the short road, but people take the short road all the time in everyday situations.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your're missing some of the points that I'm making too. That whole last post of mine with the examples was not to argue that steroids weren't cheating. It was to ask why in the hell it even matters if something is natural or "found in the food we eat". Read the examples again, they aren't arguing against a single statement that you had already made. They were simply to try to get you to understand how I feel and so that you could reply and answer to "Why does it matter?"

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. Vitamins are found in the food we eat but? So what's wrong with synthetically making more of them? Again tell me is testosterone naturally occuring in any food you eat?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, why is it okay to make synthetic vitamins but not ok to synthetically make something that isn't found in food?? What's the difference?

You'll probably want to say "Because it isn't natural" but that's not what I want to know. I already know that many people dislike things that are unnatural, which is why I made the hypothetical about the magic steroids that have no bad effects. I really would still like you to answer the questions that I proposed in my last post.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts so far and I'd like you to know that I think now, maybe whey and stuff is natural, I'm really not sure where to draw the line now. But to tell you the truth, I really couldn't give a crap if they are natural or not natural, it makes no difference no me. Either way, it's whey. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tetz8again]

Also, I'm sorry everything is getting so cluttered and disorganized, but I'll try to keep everything legible atleast.

[tetz8again]

If there is anything specific that you think I have been missing, that you are trying to get across to me or want answered, could you ask again or point me to where it was?

Like for instance, I would really like it if you could answer the questions I have posted in my last couple of posts. So could you tell me exactly what you would like me to address?

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
So lets say I bought unflavoured whey, that would, by your previus argument, make it completely natural right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm really not sure. I mean, I'm sorry if I seem redundant, but I still feel that although the ingredients are natural, whey, as a whole is not natural because it is made in a factory.

Oh and btw, when I said that whey is made in a lab, I meant that it was...can't think of the word...designed in a lab. Of course scientists don't stand around making whey by hand all day, but at one time, scientists sat in a lab and came up with how exactly they would make whey. And it obviously wasn't right the first time, so they had to plan modifications over and over again. And there are several different brands of whey, all made differently with different amino acid ratios and different amounts of fat and carbs and glutamine, etc. So thousands of hours have been spent by scientists to plan out how they will make whey. But yes, whey definately isn't mass produced by hand.

[ QUOTE ]
PROTEINS are found in food. HORMONES are not. Does the method it is derived matter? Then don't eat cheese/dairy as that is created using scientific knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to answer this, I'll say again: I really couldn't care less if scienctists made a product or not, or whether it is naturally occuring or not, it makes no difference to me.

[book]

Well I'm just as lost as you so I'll just walk myself away from this thread. No hard feelings though, I accept your point of view as legitamate

[tetz8again]

Thanks bro, I'll bet we disagree on these couple of things and maybe some more stuff too that we don't know about, but there's probably thousands of things that we do agree on. Like that steroids suck and the supplements recommended on abc are great. I'll bet we would make great training partners, we would be some of the most knowledgable and not to mention hardcore guys in the gym! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif As long as we weren't wasting gym time with discussions about what's natural and why it matters, etc! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Awesome]

Isn't this the reason for the terms "unnatural," "natural," and "all-natural?" with respect to bodybuilders.

BB'ers who take whey and other supps are considered natural.
BB'ers who only take in food are considered all-natural.

[TheShanMan]

That's right, Rocky. And regarding the point about artificial flavors, I think the issue is more that steroids have an unnatural EFFECT on your body, overriding the hormone regulation system God designed for us. So essentially we don't take them because they aren't safe. And I think a hypothetically safe hormone doesn't even make sense to bring up, at least to me. Could there be such a thing? I don't think so.

[Venom]

This is an awesome discussion!

I really like books argument that something is natural if you can consume it from a food product. This is actually what I was formulating in my mind, before I read his response. For instance, I can consume glutamine, leucine, HMB, and even creatine in food products. But we don’t actually consume insulin; we eat food such as glucose, which then stimulates the release of insulin. So we could say that consuming something which you cannot consume in food, would be unnatural.

On the other hand, Rocky’s suggest that a classification system of natural, all natural and unnatural would be advantageous. But how would we classify these. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif That would be up to debate; it seems rocky is suggesting perhaps a combination with books recommendation: eating whole foods is all natural; eating pills and supplements that you can get from whole foods is natural; and having substances that you do not consume from foods, is unnatural.

With this in mind, would we consider certain meats “unnatural”? Seriously: they put a lot of drugs into some of these animals. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, back to the question of:

[ QUOTE ]
Why are steroids considered cheating 100% but supps like creatine not at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I did a lot of research on and had some awesome discussions with in one of my Philosophy of Sport Master Courses a little while ago. Let me share with you guys my findings. Let me know what you think.

I published it on ABC for you guys to read. Here is a link to a brief paper I wrote on this topic.

Performance Enhancement Drugs (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/performancenehancement.pdf)

In summary: when analyzing all the arguments on why steroids should be banned, from my research, they all appeared to be flawed. The only valid argument that I have read, of which, I have seen no logical rebuttal to, is that allowing athletes to consume drugs, will harm other people, because they will be pressured to also take drugs, in order to keep up with their competition. And lastly, they are unethical, in that they give precedence to the performance of the athlete, rather than the athlete’s health.

[Adam Knowlden]

This arguement is very similar to doping and endurance sports. After all how much more natural can you get than your own blood? Mind you, enhanced with a lot more red blood cells. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would state that supplements can have a lot of health benefits independent of bodybuilding. For example, creatine can actually promote brain health. Glutamine is great for your immune system. Protein is essential for living.

Can the same be said for steroids?

[ QUOTE ]
Who is to say that steroids are unnatural. I mean, when you break them down, they are just atoms like you and me and whey and creatine and everything else in this world. How can someone say that anything on Earth is unnatural?


[/ QUOTE ]

But clearly this logic is self-defeating. It tends to assume we can't distinguish fantasy from reality.

[ QUOTE ]
‘If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose my beliefs are true … and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.’

[/ QUOTE ]

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]

I would state that supplements can have a lot of health benefits independent of bodybuilding. For example, creatine can actually promote brain health. Glutamine is great for your immune system. Protein is essential for living.

[/ QUOTE ]

From a philisophical, and practical standpiont, I think this is the key to everything.

Ultimately, the goal is to be healthy and optimize performance. But we should not optimize our performance at the expense of ones health; steroids compromise health, and pressure others to do the same. For this reason I think they should be illegal for all sports. How badly do I wish bodybuiding would do this. :/

[tetz8again]

Venom/Old School, if there were no bad side effects of steroids, would you think it is alright to take them? I think the only reason they should be banned is because they are bad for you, so if they weren't unhealthy, but everything else was the same as it is now (how they are made and used, still "unnatural", etc.), would they be alright?

[Venom]

I don't see why not... heck, I'd probably use them haha. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'd be interested in others opinions on this as well. Good question!

[tetz8again]

I really like the second paragraph of that article about unfair advantages. I never thought of it on the humans genetic level, but earlier when book said that it is cheating for average gym goers to use steroids because it produces results easier, I got to thinking that if that were true, then it must be cheating for any one to even be lifting weights in the first place because it gives you an unfair advantage over people who don't lift weights but would like to look better.

[ QUOTE ]
A common argument in support of banning steroids is that they give athletes an unfair advantage over their opponents. However, Roger Gardner points out numerous
flaws in this argument. When analyzing sports, there are numerous advantages athletes have. Certain athletes have accessibility to more technology, better equipment, better
trainers and scientific training methods, greater genetics such as height and a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers, and so on. Yet, we do not consider athletes unethical for having these various advantages over their competitors.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph is beautiful and I agree with every word of it.

Btw, are there any fatal genetic diseases where steroids can be treated or atleast used to help slow down the process? I was thinking Lou Gherigs disease, but I'm not sure.

[tristan_v1]

i think that anything that has a million side effects
like steroids should be considerd cheating.where as
the supplements are natural and can be found in
our daily meals.

we all know the side effects of steriods but there are
some people that are still debating wether or not they
are legit.

this topic should be put to a rest.

[Venom]

I am glad you like the article, tetz /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Steroids can be prescribed by a doctor for certain medical conditions. For instance, muscle wasting conditions such as aids. Or, for hormonal replacement, when one has abnormally low levels of testosterone.

[tetz8again]

[ QUOTE ]
i think that anything that has a million side effects like steroids should be considerd cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that anything should be considered cheating if there aren't any rules against it. If by "considered cheating", you mean that you think steroids should be against the rules, then I agree with you. But if you stand by the exact wording of this sentence, then I think you are wrong.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Venom/Old School, if there were no bad side effects of steroids, would you think it is alright to take them? I think the only reason they should be banned is because they are bad for you, so if they weren't unhealthy, but everything else was the same as it is now (how they are made and used, still "unnatural", etc.), would they be alright?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is such a huge hypothetical I'm not really sure how to answer bro.

[dueno8]

the last time i checked humans, especially men have hormones within them, isn't that what the endocrine system is for?!

tetz8 made a good point about the steroid thing, but the fact is that they had to draw a line somewhere and they picked steroid, i personally am grad so one day when/if i do a comp. i won't have to juice myself just to keep up with the competition.

and just on a tanget, tothe whole horse pee thing, since no water on earth is 'new,'its just recycled, for all you know the glass of water you just drank could be your toilet water from last year!

[klosey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think that anything that has a million side effects like steroids should be considerd cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that anything should be considered cheating if there aren't any rules against it. If by "considered cheating", you mean that you think steroids should be against the rules, then I agree with you. But if you stand by the exact wording of this sentence, then I think you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]



so basically you disagree because it gives the athlete an advantage, steroids force the body past their genetic limits, i think they should just make seperate comps like a steroid division..

graham ower gym owner uses steroids, he is big, but smart he researched which are safest, what cycle is safeties best foods to eat possible side effects etc and according to last months test at hospital is in perfect health... steroids i think with right control could be just as safe as supplements in fact i believe that they are saifer than diuretics

[ryancostill]

Here is an article I have written on the topic...

[ryancostill]

Doping in Sport: Normalisation and the Athlete from a Sociological Perspective


The objective of this paper is to a) provide a brief overview of the literature pertaining to doping and cheating in sport from a sociological perspective and b) to offer an opinion on the position of the athlete, within society, in relation to doping.

---------------------------------



Doping can be defined as the use of any aid, supplement or ingested substance that is prohibited by the letter or the spirit of the rules but is used to garner an advantage in the sport experience. Evidence suggests an increase in doping since the 1950s. Coakley sees two developments as instrumental in this increase. Firstly, the official use of amphetamines in the military during WWII and secondly, the increasing ability of the medical profession to synthetically create human hormones (2). Coakley contends that the increase in doping since the 1950’s is not as a result of defective socialisation of athletes nor of an erosion of morals and ethics. Instead the author proposes the increase is predominantly due the wide availability of performance enhancing drugs. “If today’s drugs had been available in the past… it is likely that athletes would have taken them” . This Substance Abuse Hypothesis leads the author to believe what drives the offending athlete to cheat is “an over-commitment to the sport ethic itself” (2). Worryingly, research suggests that unless an athlete devotes “total commitment” to his/her sport, (defined as ranking the sport as the most or second most important factor in their lives), then success at the highest levels is unlikely .

Over-commitment and availability, however, cannot be the sole reasons for such deviant, potentially hazardous behaviour. Examination of the literature reveals developments in society have led to the normalisation of such behaviour for the athlete and athletes themselves can develop viewpoints and support groups, which help further normalise such deviance.

According to Zola, ours has become a medicalised society. In the early 1900s, virtually all pregnancies and births took place outside of the hospital and with little or no medical supervision . Nowadays that is, of course, not the case. Traditionally drug-addiction and alcoholism were viewed as foibles or weaknesses but this viewpoint has radically evolved and they are now perceived as illnesses. Medical specialities have resultantly emerged to meet these needs. The physician is “increasingly becoming the choice for help with personal and social problems” .

The medicalisation of society is paralleled by a medicalisation of sport . Society has increasingly become dependent on professional care and on drugs (6) and the medicalisation process has also enveloped sport. Sports medicine as a discipline has emerged and team doctors are far more common with increasing influence and responsibility. The medicalisation of society has lead athletes to become part of a pill-dependent society and according to Houlihan “it is unrealistic to expect athletes to insulate themselves” from such a culture.

Voy lists the amount of legal drugs (legal in terms defined by both the state and the IOC) which some national athletes intake: Vitamins E, C and B-6, Amino Acids, B-Complex capsules, Calcium, Magnesium and Zinc tablets and more. Such intake, which is perfectly legal and often supervised and encouraged by coaches and doctors, and is part of a common athletic culture, develops “the expectations and patterns of behaviour that might initially parallel illegal drug use” (8).

However it is not just social constructs which serve to normalise deviant behaviour but also constructs of athletes’ own makings. Monaghan 2001 , states that athletic groups, in this case bodybuilders, can form tightly knit communities in which drug use is both widely accepted as not only legitimate but even as “pre-requisite for success”. Such groups enable the members to “normalise and rationalise” activities which mainstream perception would deem “deviant, dangerous and risky”. It is not far-fetched to assume that if such circles have developed in professional sports such as bodybuilding then they are likely to exist in other athletic endeavours.

Along with “normalising” support groups, athletes can develop normalising viewpoints and opinions. “When a hero such as Ben Johnson is exposed for cheating everyone… feels repercussions from this blow” . Sports and federations lose money, public interest, support and face “sharp, intense scrutiny” from the media (10). Such impacts can cause many to be seemingly willing to ignore positive tests. Unreported positive tests have been common (Helsinki 1983, Rome 1987) . Such cover-ups negatively reinforce deviant athletes’ behaviour and can perpetuate the athlete’s opinion that doping is the norm and is even essential to the sport. Furthermore, if the disgrace of high profile athletes, such as Johnson, can cast a sport into severe disrepute then it is likely the success of similar high profile stars can be of benefit to the sport. It is through such thinking that high profile athletes can equate their cheating and success to an essential need for the good of the sport.

Athletes who take excessive doses of illegal performance enhancers, put themselves at risk to many life threatening health problems . These health risks are a dominant reason such synthethics are banned. However, to the drug-using athlete this is often just one calculated risk among many they take. Athletes are encouraged to take risks all the time. Few are lauded more in the media than the footballer who “plays hurt” for the good of his team or the racing car driver who takes death defying risks in the pursuit of victory. The promotion and celebration of such deviant behaviour by society allows athletes to “internalise values associated with a culture of risk” and subsequently they can easier accept the risk associated with the use of drugs.

Increased availability of performance enhancing drugs coupled with over-committed athletes has contributed significantly to increases in the occurrences of doping since the 1950s. The taking of such potentially harmful substances has been somewhat normalised by an ever growing medicalisation of society. Athletes live in a society where medical supervision or drugs are increasingly prescribed for common maladies or conditions yet they are expected to insulate themselves from such behaviour. Key hypocritical actions by persons in authoritative positions, has not helped. The official prescription of amphetamines during wartime and their subsequent illegalisation is one such action. Furthermore, athletes can be encouraged to take countless dietary supplements by sports physicians yet are expected to instantly draw a line at supplements which maybe legal in terms of state legislation but banned by sporting governing bodies. Negative reinforcement, in the form of sporting governing bodies ignoring and covering up positive tests further heightens the double standards and hypocrisy with which athletes are faced. Double standards are also prevalent in the media. Deviant behaviour such as playing with injury “through the pain barrier” is proclaimed as a courageous sacrifice, while athletes guilty of doping, which may be no more deleterious to health, are castigated. Athletes also contribute to the normalisation process themselves, however. Athletes form support groups of other like-minded athletes where doping is seen as common-place and key to success. In such an environment, drug taking athletes can also convince themselves that doping is essential to their success and that their success is of potential benefit to the sport as a whole.


References

Blum, R.H., (1974), Society and Drugs, Jossey-Bass Publishers, London
Coakley, J.J., (1998), Sport and Society: Issues and Controversies, McGraw-Hill

Kirk, D, Hanrahan, S., Nauright, J., (1996), The Sociocultural Foundations of Human Movement, MacMillan Publishing Company

Lumpkin, A., Stoll, S.K., Beller, J.M., (2003), Sport Ethics: Applications for Fair Play, McGraw-Hill

Orlick and Partington, 1988, Mental Links to Excellence, The Sports Psychologist, Vol. 2, pp. 105-130

Voy, R., (1991) Drugs, Sport and Politics, Leisure Press, Champaign, Illinois

Waddington, I., (2000), Doping in Sport: Problems of Involvement and Detachment, delivered at the Centre d’Etudes Olympiques, International Olympic Committee, Lausanne, Switzerland.
Available
[Online]
www.ucd.ie/css/html/pages/lausanne%20ioc.pdf (http://www.ucd.ie/css/html/pages/lausanne%20ioc.pdf)
(accessed: 24/02/04)


Waddington,. I., (2001), Doping in Sport: A Medical Sociological Perspective, delivered to the Research Workshop on Doping in Sport at the Norwegian University of Sport and Physical Education.
Available
[Online]
www.ucd.ie/css/html/pages/oslo.pdf (http://www.ucd.ie/css/html/pages/oslo.pdf)
(accessed 24/02/04)


Zola,I., (1972), Medicine as an Institution of Social Control, Sociological Review, Vol. 20, pp. 487-504

[ryancostill]

As I used footnote referencing in the original manusript, the referencing system has been a little thrown off in copying and pasting, so apologies for that.

[Venom]

That was absolutely fantastic, Ryan! I am in 100% agreement. It seems the take home message is:

1. Sport mirrors society. And our societies incredible reliance on drugs, has likewise, been mirrored in sports
2. "Devient Overcomfortity" in sports, as coined by Coakley, has definitely increased drug use.

I wrote something very similar to what you did on this topic. I will post a PDF on this today. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Venom]

Here is a quick little 500 word paper on this.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/deviantoverconformity.pdf


What I find really funny about this topic, is that it is really hypocritical. On one hand, we condemn Ronnie Coleman for taking drugs. But on the other hand, we pay him a tone of money and applaud him! Essentially, we want to have our cake and eat it, too. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It's almost like we want to see Mass Monsters, but don't want to know what they are doing. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[klosey]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a quick little 500 word paper on this.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/deviantoverconformity.pdf


What I find really funny about this topic, is that it is really hypocritical. On one hand, we condemn Ronnie Coleman for taking drugs. But on the other hand, we pay him a tone of money and applaud him! Essentially, we want to have our cake and eat it, too. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It's almost like we want to see Mass Monsters, but don't want to know what they are doing. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats basically it right there we love to see them but dont want to hear how they got big as it may ruin our own dreams of being huge.....


but like i said i have no problem with steroid uses, everything can be safe in moderation