Should We Starve Ourselves for 8 Hours Everyday?!?

[Venom]

The title may sound ridiculous, but that is what most of us have done daily for the majority of our lives. That is, we don’t eat anything for 8 hours + while sleeping at night.

So I have three questions.

1. Should we wake up in the middle of the night to eat, or starve for 8 hours?
2. What are the positives and negatives to eating in the middle of the night?
3. If you were to eat in the middle of the night, what would you eat, and why?

[War5475]

I agree that we should eat somthing during the night. When i make sure i eat right before sleep and then wake up and eat somthing during the night. Go back to sleep wake up and imediatly eatsomthing. I feel much better.

As to what. I dont feel im qualified to answere that. I just make sure its high in protein and low in sugar and carbs. Somtiems its a shake somtimes some type of meat.

Its funny ever since Jay Cutler started telling people he eats during the night. Ive noticed alot of other BB say the same thing now. It makes since. Its got to be stressful on the body to go so long without eating.

[book]

[ QUOTE ]
The title may sound ridiculous, but that is what most of us have done daily for the majority of our lives. That is, we don’t eat anything for 8 hours + while sleeping at night.

So I have three questions.

1. Should we wake up in the middle of the night to eat, or starve for 8 hours?
2. What are the positives and negatives to eating in the middle of the night?
3. If you were to eat in the middle of the night, what would you eat, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well firstly I don't think we'd be starving ourselves for 8 hours, because the pre-bed caesin meal would last at least 4 hours before catabolism starts to occur.

But at night, when metabolism is lower and the body requires a lot less energy to function, how catabolic is sleeping? Personally I don't think it is at all - matter of fact I would argue against chronically waking yourself up via unnatural means (alarm clock which the Circadium articles show wrecks havoc on a proper sleep cycle) as it would affect the NREM/REM cycle for releasing anabolic hormones. I would assume on a proper diet with meals every 2-3 hours, in a whole week anabolism would occur at 80% of the time while you can only receive the hormonal benefits of sleep...when you sleep /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

1. No, I believe the costs outweigh the benefits
2. The positives are you will stimulate an anabolic environment, the negatives is you will disrupt your sleeping cycle which would have major drawbacks (could lead to insomnia, trouble sleeping, lesser testosterone levels).
3. Well I'd eat a blend meal of caesin and a fast digesting source with a small amount of fats. IMO the insulin sensitivty created in the morning serves a great benefit in refilling glycogen, especially on a cut.

Another thing is wouldn't the cortisol rise create a better environment fot sleep. I remember reading that chronic cortisol release is bad, but in proper amounts it has a relaxing effect.

[Hells Fire]

[ QUOTE ]
2. What are the positives and negatives to eating in the middle of the night?

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting some calories during the fast would be nice, but it will ruin your sleep. The first four hours of sleep help you recover physically, and the four after are more for mental recovery. This is why staying up late to study for a test the next morning won't help you. Cutting out sleep will ruin your ability to focus.
If you wake up in the middle of the night and go back to bed, you do not return to stage of sleep you were at - you start all over. Waking up to snack would be detrimental to your mental recovery.
From personal experience, waking up in the middle of the night (for a snack, or just to go to the bathroom) makes me physically and mentally tired and unable to focus.

[DirtbagDan]

The solution to this is buying yourself some slow-release night time protein formula. I bought some a while ago, and I would have it before going to bed at night, so I wouldnt enter an 8-hour Catabolic state. I don't like getting up in the middle of the night to eat, because I can't afford to lose sleep and I just dont like when my sleep is interrupted. So, I went and checked out what slow-release proteins my local health store had. I came across this:

http://www.muscletech.com/PRODUCTS/NITRO-Tech/POWDER/NIGHTTIME/NITRO_TECH_NIGHTTIME.shtml

Check it out.

[Hells Fire]

[ QUOTE ]
But at night, when metabolism is lower and the body requires a lot less energy to function, how catabolic is sleeping?

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, especially during REM sleep when the muscles are paralyzed. REM sleep occurs in longer periods as the night progresses. The last 4 hours of sleep would be very roughly 40% REM (assuming an 8 hour sleep), whereas the first 4 hours would be more like 10%. Wanting more calories to use during the last 4 hours of sleep seems a little silly; you aren't going to use many calories then. Although, if you do wake up, you would return to earlier stages of sleep, which should require somewhat more calories.

A counterargument is that sleep does not have to strictly follow the "normal" pattern of stage (like 1 2 3 4 3 2 REM 2 3 4 3 2 REM 2 3 2 REM 2 REM 2 REM wake). Patients with insomnia or other sleeping disorders may get proportionately more REM sleep as the body's way of coping with lack of sleep. So, the bodybuilder may be able to adapt to waking up in the middle of the night.
... or maybe not. Many patients with sleep apnea NEVER get REM sleep. Sleep apnea entails waking up up to hundreds of times during the night because the patients stops breathing when they sleep. Waking once to eat is much less extreme than waking 10's or 100's or times; but I believe you would not get enough REM sleep for optimal physical and mental performance if you regularly wake in the middle of the night.

by the way, my primary source of information is my psychology book Invitation to Psychology by Wade and Tavris.

[Hells Fire]

[ QUOTE ]
The solution to this is buying yourself some slow-release night time protein formula.

[/ QUOTE ]
That stuff's not bad, but it's not as amazing as the ad makes it sound. It's just a blend of casien and whey protein. A bowl of cottage cheese with a whey protein shake would be essentially the same thing, but a little better. Whole foods (like cottage cheese) take longer to digest than powdered or processed foods.
The optimal pre-sleep meal would be cottage cheese, EFAs, and some LGVs (along with whatever supplements you like).

[ElGrizzle]

I hear lots of people take cottage cheese before bed. Me, because I cant have dairy, just take a gainer before bed, and when I had it, HMB.

HMB is awesome just before bed. Its anti-catabolic effect lasts for 9.5 hours after ingestion. I usually always woke up 3-5 pounds lighter. HMB literally made me wake up the same weight in the morning, and (because of this) lead me to consistent gains.

[War5475]

Just hook up to an iv before you go to sleep.

[DirtbagDan]

[ QUOTE ]
Just hook up to an iv before you go to sleep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you just found the perfect solution. lol.

[Growth In Motion]

Maybe we need to starve ourselves to make sure we'll be hungry when we wake up?

[poogas]

I agree that the downsides to waking up with an alarm clock in the middle of the night probably outweigh the benefits, but wouldn't waking up to use the bathroom be less disruptive to Circadium rythym?

Your body will ingore a full bladder for quite a while when you're asleep, (and when you do wake up you REALLY got to go) so I would assume that in these instances you're actually waking up during the lightest phases of sleep and rarely during REM. If this is the case, would it be beneficial to consume a lot of water right before bed and then having a protein shake once you get up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night?

[War5475]

I wake up like 3 to 4 times a night cause i drink so much water everyday.

[TheShanMan]

I have no scientific evidence to back me up here, but I've been downing pro-score shakes at 3 AM for quite a while now and I really don't notice a difference in how I feel during the day in terms of drowsiness or mental alertness. I try my best to minimize the wake up time by having the shake all ready to drink, so I just go to the bathroom, down it, and fall back to sleep (virtually instantly btw). And this is coming from someone who doesn't really get as much sleep as I should anyway (usually around 6 hours while 7 seems to be the ideal for me).

I do like the idea of letting my need to urinate be my alarm clock though... I should experiment with downing LOTS of water before I go to sleep.

[War5475]

Hey shan man. Thats when i eat. I gotta pee anyway and like you said I do it really fast. And go right back to sleep.

[book]

To you guys talking about waking up to use the bathroom it is IMO a really good idea for some. I know personally that waking up at all during the night really effects my sleep (I've had sleep problems before as well). But for people who don't find anything wrong with it..then why not

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, I have no sleep problems except for not getting enough - lol. It is a rare occasion that it takes me longer than 5 minutes to go to sleep at night!

[Fahsy]

For the past 2 months I've been bulking and by the time I go to bed I am so full that even when I wake up the next morning I am not hungry. I think as long as I am getting enough calories during the day that my body can handle 8 hours w/o food.

This is a little off topic but it is in regards to waking up tired or alert. I find that if my alarm goes off while I am in the middle of a dream am I very tired still but if I don't recall dreaming when my alarm goes off I do not feel tired.

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, but it's not primarily about how many calories you get in a day, it's about nutrient timing. You wouldn't consume all your daily calories in one sitting (assuming you were capable of that!) would you? Of course not - it's not optimal. That's why a middle of the night feeding is worth consideration.

[wordlife]

I agree with Book. I probably won't do this. I thought about it, but then I was like, thats impossible, its hard for me to sleep less than 9+ hours and when someone wakes me up (IF I wake up) before my natural wake up, it really disturbs me and I cant sleep again before a couple of hours and I stay with headaches all day.

With that being said, for me, 2-4 hours of catabolism ain't worth missing a workout because of headache or messing my schedule up. But for guys that wake up during their sleep, like War and ShanMan, I think its awesome to stay anabolic 24/7.

So I think it depends upon the person, if someone already wakes up during sleeping and doesn't disrupt his sleep cycle, I think positives outweight negatives. But for someone like me and Book, I think negatives outweigh positives.

[Venom]

Great insight guys. Very helpful. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So I guess there are a couple of things we need to determine here:

1. Does waking up in the middle of the night to eat hinder your sleep
2. Does it interfere with circadium rythms and stages of sleep like REM
3. Does a protein shake in the middle of the night enhance anabolism significantly?

Here is my opinion.

First, I have tried this. I have been having about 1 scoop of pro-score, 1 gram of HMB, 5 grams of glutamine, and 1 scoop of the amino acid shooter in the middle of the night.

1.

I am not a sleep expert. But, from my experience, as with several others that posted, this has not disturbed my sleep at all.

I always get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom like others anyway.

However, I do like the idea of allowing this to wake you up, rather than an alarm clock. That would be interesting to test.

But all I do, is put my timer on for 3 hours after I go to sleep, wake up, down my shake, go to the bathroom, and that gives me 4-5 hours more to go back to sleep. So far, I have not had any problems with sleep by doing this. However, some might. It would be an interesting experiment to examine. You could take 50 people and do this, and see how many report sleeping problems.

2.

Again, this is not my expertise. Old school has done a ton of research on this, however. I would really like to hear his insight.

Here is a quote from one of his great z-factor articles, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/zfactor2.php

[ QUOTE ]
Q. 14. Is it possible to manipulate the sleep cycle in such a way that I can get more SWS and cut out REM sleep?

A. Hardcore question bro!

Don’t make any mistake about it! You need REM sleep!

It is primarily responsible for restoring mental properties, and being severely deprived of it can actually kill you! (OK, that’s in the extreme case! LOL)

REM sleep is very vital to bodybuilders, and not getting enough will just create a sleep debt. So, if you fragment your sleep you will just slip into REM sleep faster the next time you crash. Just remember, you can’t cheat the sleep cycle! Yeah, you’ll go through the initial sleep stages again, but the time will be harshly shortened and you’ll go into REM very quickly after you fall asleep and stay in that particular stage longer. You will complete it eventually, but interrupting sleep will only delay it, and more than likely make you drowsy all day.


[/ QUOTE ]

This quote from his article, leads me to believe this method should not interfere with REM sleep.

3.

Does a protein shake in the middle of the night increase anabolism? And, does not eating for 8 hours during sleep actually make you anabolic?

The President has been doing a ton of research on this; hopefully, he will be able to comment on this soon. But he has found some insane support for this.

He said he read some studies that protein synthesis is decreased 30-50% in the middle of the night! And that this was highly related to leucine depletion.

But guess what? They infused BCAA’s in the middle of the night, and this solved the problem, maintaining growth in the middle of the night. /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

So from this, I think there definitely is a benefit to having some protein in the middle of the night. I think adding some EPA and DHA may be a good idea, too.

This is also consistent with our research on protein. Prez and I found that protein synthesis can be increased just as effectively 1-2 hours after a meal. So it would make sense that you could spike protein synthesis again in the middle of the night.

So I think there are benefits to this.

The potential side effect would be losing sleep.

So perhaps you should try it for yourself for a week, and see if it works. If you have a hard time sleeping, or notice you feel more drowsy, then try to make some adjustments. But if it still does not work, then it would probably be better not to do this.

[TheShanMan]

Great post, Venom! Validation! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks!

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
The potential side effect would be losing sleep.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, you can learn to not lose sleep. The origional disturbance can be adjusted to as most perturbations can. Soon it would become second nature to fall right back to sleep. I discuss this in the issue which comes out next month in detail (actually next week).

I do not feel it is worth the 4 hours of catabolism, but I will detail this in my articles on leucine as to exactly what my rationales are.

I will say this though, Im thankful for everyones insights, they are very thought provoking and drive future research. Very strong points made

[Whey Man]

Another way to naturally wake up is to mediate on the time you want to wake up at. For instance, as I child I would set my alarm for Saturday morning cartoons... and I a would actually consistently wake up literally minutes before the alarm would go off, because I would obsess about waking up at that certain time to catch my favorite cartoons (you caught me...Pokemon).

It may sound weird, but try setting your alarm for the time you want to eat in the middle of the night, and just keep telling yourself repeatedly that you HAVE to wake up at that exact time. The goal is to wake up BEFORE the alarm goes off though. You could argue that you don't need to turn on the alarm, but I suggest doing so because it gives you an actual goal. Perform and wake up...or you lose and Mr. alarm goes off. Plain and simple.

Once you get used to waking up at the certain time, I assume it would be second nature to naturally and consistently wake up at that time without the risk of the alarm going off.

Eh? Sound good? I'm going to try this out. To me it sounds better than forcing myself to have to pee in the middle of the night. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[wordlife]

I think I have to agree with prez on his point.

I usually sleep to 12 o'clock in vacations because I've got nothing to do. So my schedule is adjusted to sleeping 3 am. But on Tuesdays, I have to wake up at 8 am for monday night RAW (8 hours differene in timings between US and here). So I was setting alarms at first, but by now, on tuesdays I wake up 8 am sharp without alarms, and fall back to sleep at 10 right after the show is over.

With that being said its not practically impossible to wake up, down the shake, and go back to sleep, but I believe it will be hard time getting used to this.

[Venom]

That was hillarious whey man haha! Tonight, I am going to obsess over eating protein in the middle of the night. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, I think my body is adapting. I woke up the other day a few minutes before my alarm clock. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Whey Man]

[ QUOTE ]


Seriously though, I think my body is adapting. I woke up the other day a few minutes before my alarm clock. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, isn't that the best feeling in the world?! I feel like my life can't get any better after such an amazing accomplishment. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sucramdw]

I am in the process of going through the Leucine article and just ordered a ton of AAShooter along with a bunch of other supps. from the store and am excited to try this method!!

[dashforce]

For a few weeks now I've tried a few different 3am "meals" (whey shake, whey with leucine, a little cottage cheese). I seem to be significantly less hungry at breakfast when I do this.

My main concern with the mid-sleep meal is that it might affect the morning insulin sensitivity. I can't help but think that overnight depletion of (liver) glycogen plays an important role in morning insulin sensitivity. Could eating during the night make one less insulin sensitive in the morning?

[Venom]

I don't see how eating protein and efa's would in anyway decrease insulin sensitivity; in fact, it does the opposite.

And yes, I am much less hungry at breakfast, which is a great thing!

[dashforce]

Here's an interesting semi-relevant experiment apparently showing that insulin sensitivity is circadian, irrespective of blood glucose levels (at least in the short term).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=295490&blobtype=pdf

My concern was that the production/conversion of .6-.7 (gram?) glucose from each gram of protein (I remember protein efficiency was .6 or so, I think carbs were 1:1) might raise glucose enough to "satisfy" the debt caused by an overnight fast, thereby decreasing the morning sensitivity. Apparently that is not the case (thank goodness).