Question about listening to the world

[TForce]

Over the past few months, I have learned a bit about Taoism, which in some aspects, is about listening to the world as if it is communicating with you, being in harmony with the world, and stuff like that.

I am doubting that there is anything in the Bible which supports this kind of belief system, at least not in the Old Testament, but I just wanted to find out from those who are a bit more knowledgeable on the subject.

[Adam Knowlden]

I think there are some things you can gain from other's beliefs. A good example is Ganhdi. I'm not Hindu but his philosophies are powerful.

Its good to be diverse and accept others beliefs, but no the earth is the creation of God. We have to be careful about assigning the earth with God-like characteristics like feelings or spiritual attributes.

We should be good stewards of the earth, but not seeking to be in harmony with it in a spiritual sense.

What are your thoughts?

[TForce]

Well, it really all boils down to the same coincidence type of phenomenon as what we discussed last week. It's easy to listen to the world and hear things that apply to you and think that it is referring to you, especially when it is in conjunction with what you happen to be thinking at that same moment. Sometimes, it can be really uncanny. Some people call that type of everyday occurrence as "miracles", one of the "selling points" of modern day conversion. On the flipside, the other half of what you hear is not true, pure garbage, leading to the inevitable conclusion that this can only be accepted as chaos, despite whatever coincidences might occur in such "phenomena". I'm really big on coincidences these days. So many things out of life are chalked up to more than they really are, even though some things deserve their due, I really believe that all of these common every day occurrences are nothing more than coincidences, applications of an infinite number of question marks to any given circumstance in our everyday lives.

If God could make everybody live in harmony, he would have done it a long time ago. I could live with calling God a person, living through mankind in general, but then I would have to call him a little baby, still in that stage where if he doesn't get what he wants, he throws a temper tantrum, no disrespect intended, of course.

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
If God could make everybody live in harmony, he would have done it a long time ago. I could live with calling God a person, living through mankind in general, but then I would have to call him a little baby, still in that stage where if he doesn't get what he wants, he throws a temper tantrum, no disrespect intended, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

that isnt logical at all ...

I do have one honest question for you though Tforce, Do you have a secret agenda here where you really want to turn people away from god for some reason ? No offense but it honestly looks like thats what your intending.

[rickck48]

Well that is a good assesment I think OldSchool, I don't think God wants us to listen to the world, but through his guidance be an examnple and try to show everyone how to turn to God and change the world as best as we can and allow him to do his job without our interference at same time. Answer: Prayer. It works. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Hi TForce, most of the time I really don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are trying to convey your thoughts but you are assuming we have a base knowldege of your core beliefs. When you assume this, it confuses readers.

Rickck48, I think also if you are going to study other beliefs you have to have a strong foundation in the Word so you don't get swayed. However you don't want to come across as arrogant. There is a way to witness to show that Christ is the truth, but there is a great deal of wisdom to learn about other beliefs that are not Christian. For example there is a great deal of very quality Chineese Proverbs. But you have to be able to seperate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. When they start talking about finding "truth in yourself" you have to disregard. But their proverbs on analyzing human behavior are insanely accurate.

For example at my university they teach evolution. I do not believe in it, I learn it but I am well versed in creation so it doesn't sway me. Moreover the university provides an overall excellent education.

However, I also would seem very closed minded if I went to the dean over every reference of evolution. A person who can demonstrate they have accessed other alternatives and still believe in Christianity (especially if you have good research and sources to back you up) will have a lot more validity than someone who has lived in a box and has no idea about any other beliefs or won't even listen to other view points.

[TForce]

Core beliefs? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Well, I guess I would have to say that I am probably still a pagan that doesn't believe in magic, though I believe that the Jews deserve lots of credit for introducing worthy laws and morality and so forth, though I still have not taken the time to peruse the intricate details of the Talmud. Of course, I have never really put much stock in sacrifices of any living being, so maybe that's where I start dissenting. There have been lots of pagan Jews throughout history, right? I have pretty much given up on history when the Bible is concerned. All that really concerns me are laws and what religion does to try and get people to obey them, whether it is through fear (of going to hell) or reward (for being good). Being more of a scientist than anything, I am more inclined to believe in the latter. That about sums it up, in a nutshell.

[TForce]

[ QUOTE ]

that isnt logical at all ...

I do have one honest question for you though Tforce, Do you have a secret agenda here where you really want to turn people away from god for some reason ? No offense but it honestly looks like thats what your intending.

[/ QUOTE ]


... and no, I am not trying to turn anyone away from God. This is just the product of my perspective. God lives through us all. This is the view that I have developed. Wars are fought, and it's usually the bad guys (the sick people, socially, mentally, and/or spiritually) that start them, but the winners almost always have something to contribute to society, in this day and age, at least. Somehow, this is how God always wins. Somehow, this is proof that there is a God. The further we go back, the more and more we delve into chaos and barbarism, which is completely irrelevant. This is all that I was alluding to.

[TForce]

There is a question that I have been meaning to ask, just out of curiosity. Maybe this belief is incongruent with what the Bible preaches, or maybe there is something in it to back this up, but, if so, who said that we are all one, despite spiritual disease, mental disease, and social disease, in all of their different forms? Or is this just simply too advanced of a philosophy to be found in the Bible?

[kokokolo]

I dont think we are all one. And im pretty sure that Idea is not Biblical.

Nor is that belief Logical ...

[Adam Knowlden]

Thanks for the breakdown!

[ QUOTE ]
Core beliefs? Well, I guess I would have to say that I am probably still a pagan that doesn't believe in magic,

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I am certain then that your beliefs are not biblical. Paganism is condemned in the bible.

<font color="red"> 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

</font>

If you study the history of Israel as the Jews recorded you will quickly realize they did not bring morality into the world.

Moses brought them the law, and they rebelled constantly. By the way the law was actually a covenant. Israel's side was to keep God's Laws, God's side is laid out in Deutoronmy

<font color="blue"> 15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. </font>

Israel agreed to the Covenant, yet only God ever kept His side of the bargain. Demonstrates a great attribute of God's Character.

<font color="#666666">Exodus 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:3
And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Exodus 24:7
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. </font>

If you study Exodus and Numbers you will learn that even when they had God's Laws they broke them constantly to the point God did not even allow the first generation that came out of Egypt to enter Cannan.

<font color="blue"> Numbers 14
1And all the congregation lifted up their voice, and cried; and the people wept that night.

2And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!

3And wherefore hath the LORD brought us unto this land, to fall by the sword, that our wives and our children should be a prey? were it not better for us to return into Egypt?

4And they said one to another, Let us make a captain, and let us return into Egypt.

5Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.

the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

11And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

22Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

27How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.

28Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.

30Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

32But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

33And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your *****doms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

35I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

</font>


[ QUOTE ]
Of course, I have never really put much stock in sacrifices of any living being, so maybe that's where I start dissenting.

[/ QUOTE ]

God was disgusted with these acts.

<font color="blue"> 2 Kings 17:17
They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger. </font>

<font color="brown"> 2 Chronicles 28:3
He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his sons in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. </font>

In the Valley of Hinnom, there was a pagan practice that Israel took up that involved sacrificing one's children to the god molach and baal.

<font color="green">30 " 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. </font>

The place where they were sacrificed was called Topeth or "fire stove".

[ QUOTE ]
There have been lots of pagan Jews throughout history, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but this was the opposite of what they were supposed to do. They were supposed to be a light for all nations, instead they often adopted their practices.

<font color="blue"> 39Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

40Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.

41And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them.

42Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand.

43Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity.

44Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry:

45And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

46He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives.

47Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise.

48Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

</font>

[ QUOTE ]
All that really concerns me are laws and what religion does to try and get people to obey them, whether it is through fear (of going to hell) or reward (for being good).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I do not believe you will ever find an answer. If you are trying to discover why Christ's leadership is effecitve you are going to have to change your perception of leadership.

People who genuinely seek Christ do not follow His leadership because of system of reward and/or punishment (as you define religion) but because of a common vision.

[ QUOTE ]
Being more of a scientist than anything, I am more inclined to believe in the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leadership involves free will above punishment or reward. Leadership is granted by followers, not dictated. One can be in control and not be a leader. In other words, people may comply with their directives but without wanting to do so.

Followers who act out of committment do not have to be watched all the time to ensure their best effort.

Leadership is the ability to influence people to willingly follow one’s guidance.

Leadership has also been associated with the practice of doing the right (ethical) things.

Because the world does not exist for only one moment in time, any definition of leadership must recognize that leadership is not an event that occurs at one point, but is a process that takes time. In essence, leadership deals with the creation and development of relationships over a period of time.

Leadership is above all else an influence process.

I do not believe there is any one leader in the entire history of mankind whose leadership legacy has sustanined longer than Christs.

[TForce]

As far as my so-called "paganism" is concerned, I would just chalk that up to semantics. I just now realized all of the bad things that can come to mind when the word paganism is used, as some pretty far out things have been done in its name. This is everything I came up with as far as simple definitions are concerned:

pa·gan n.
One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
One who has no religion.
A non-Christian.
A hedonist.
A Neo-Pagan.

What is not included in this list is the idea that pagans generally worship heavenly bodies, such as planets, suns, universes, whether they are considered interconnected, or individual entities, or somewhere in between these two classifications, even the polar opposites of electricity that make up the fabric of anything and everything (which could be classified as male and female, two parts of a whole, as many have, even some Jews, I even have one of their books). All of this other stuff about hedonism and agnostics and so forth, this is just the type of stuff you run into when people try to associate themselves with descent, good, law-abiding people. I say tomato, they say ****tail sauce. Yes, it is there in the history where God said don't be a pagan, per se, but then, it also says, right here, that God said worship Me, not the image that you make me out to be. "23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things," just another instance of conflicting scripture, aye? In other words, God is saying right here to be a pagan, at least in the sense that I am talking about, so that Man does not forget who is boss, who controls the earth and the heavens, lest he drive us all into oblivion with a flood, or swipe the ground from underneath us.

The whole thing about covenants and laws upon laws upon more laws, before we even get to the law of the land, this really just makes things too complicated, in my opinion. The covenant is sufficient enough that everybody should just take off their skullcaps and loosen up, in my opinion, but who am I, right?. I know this girl who is Jewish (because her mother was Jewish), but she has tattoos on like 10-20% of her body, her profession is that of a body piercer, and yet, after trying it out, she's not really into the full-fledged hedonism thing, as she wasn't "raised that way", though you never know. This could have just been an easy way to get a divorce, just kidding, but it just goes to show you who can get off doing whatever they want, and still call themselves free, descent people. (The only requirement to this exclusive club is that you just have to have a Jewish mother. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif) Actually, she came from a mixed family, Christian/Jewish, so who knows how these types of things even erupt in the first place. Just another example of people fleeing from what doesn't make sense or what is not explained to them, or in this case, probably what was also not agreed on.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as my so-called "paganism" is concerned, I would just chalk that up to semantics.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was your answer, not mine.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is there in the history where God said don't be a pagan, per se, but then, it also says, right here, that God said worship Me, not the image that you make me out to be. "23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things," just another instance of conflicting scripture, aye?

[/ QUOTE ]

God said not to worship any one but Himself. Much more than in the history. It is very clearly laid out in the bible.

It is actually the first of the 10 commandments:

<font color="blue"> Exodus 20

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
</font>

God explicitely condemns worshipping the sun, moon, or stars, the earth or anything in the earth.

<font color="red">Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. </font>

<font color="brown"> 1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.

2 Why do the nations say,
"Where is their God?"

3 Our God is in heaven;
he does whatever pleases him.

4 But their idols are silver and gold,
made by the hands of men.

5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
eyes, but they cannot see;

6 they have ears, but cannot hear,
noses, but they cannot smell;

7 they have hands, but cannot feel,
feet, but they cannot walk;
nor can they utter a sound with their throats.

8 Those who make them will be like them,
and so will all who trust in them.
</font>

It is not confusing or conflicting at all, you are simply out of context.

[ QUOTE ]
at least in the sense that I am talking about, so that Man does not forget who is boss, who controls the earth and the heavens, lest he drive us all into oblivion with a flood, or swipe the ground from underneath us.


[/ QUOTE ]

That does not make sense. If you want a serious response please be more concise and clear in your posts. You go off on too many rabbit trails.I don't think anyone can follow what you are saying.

For example, try to find the theme in this paragraph (yes I've distorted facts on purpose):

"Next to the river there is a stick, and that stick was used by the coven to find water. Oak trees produce the most optimum sticks, but are only suitable for cutting in Autumn when the moon is aligned with Pluto. So then the industiral age ended and a man with a briefcase walked in the store".

That is what your posts sound like which is why I can't follow you. Its called fragmented writing. Remove the vauge details and state your point, clearly and concise. I want to have a conversation with you but your responses are very wordy and irrelevant to the topic, along with being generally unclear.

If I was your professor there would be red ink all over your paper! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The whole thing about covenants and laws upon laws upon more laws, before we even get to the law of the land, this really just makes things too complicated, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not confusing at all, unless you haven't studied the matter...

[ QUOTE ]
The covenant is sufficient enough that everybody should just take off their skullcaps and loosen up, in my opinion, but who am I, right?. I know this girl who is Jewish (because her mother was Jewish), but she has tattoos on like 10-20% of her body, her profession is that of a body piercer, and yet, after trying it out, she's not really into the full-fledged hedonism thing, as she wasn't "raised that way", though you never know. This could have just been an easy way to get a divorce, just kidding, but it just goes to show you who can get off doing whatever they want, and still call themselves free, decent people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again that makes no sense and does not appear to relate to anything I said.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, she came from a mixed family, Christian/Jewish, so who knows how these types of things even erupt in the first place. Just another example of people fleeing from what doesn't make sense or what is not explained to them, or in this case, probably what was not agreed on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, unclear, fragmented.

[TForce]

This is turning into another one of those debates that I don't belong in. Why is it wrong to worship something that you can see, and adhere to all of the other laws?

[ecto no more]

[ QUOTE ]
This is turning into another one of those debates that I don't belong in. Why is it wrong to worship something that you can see, and adhere to all of the other laws?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you asking if it's OK to (and this is just an example) worship a tree as a symbol of God and still consider yourself a Bible abiding Christian? And I'm not sure what "other laws" you are refering to. Elaborate maybe?

[ElGrizzle]

For me, I see the everything as God. I dont really worship things, but I respect all people and things the same as God.

Its basically the idea of the one and all. An equation that unifies everything in existence.



Alot of what I speak about is called Quantum physics. Also Gnostic christianity, Kabbala, Hinduism.

This new science called quantum physics explains how spiritual plains and higher dimensions exist. And it also explains that the world we see around us is created in our minds.

So if we dont believe in God, then God will not exist for us. But if we do believe in God, God will be ever present.



If we go through this life seaking unification with the infinite (all things), we will be following a path of fullness and divine love.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
This is turning into another one of those debates that I don't belong in. Why is it wrong to worship something that you can see, and adhere to all of the other laws?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't debating anything just trying to answer your question bro.

The bible is clear about idolatry. Why is it evil? Because the only one that deserves worship is God, not an inanimate object. The earth reveals His Glory, it was not created to steal His Glory.

http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/psalms_104.html

Paul also argues against worshiping nature:

http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/acts_17.html

[ QUOTE ]
Alot of what I speak about is called Quantum physics. Also Gnostic christianity, Kabbala, Hinduism.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible dicusses vain philosophy:

<font color="blue"> keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
</font>

[TForce]

Worshipping a statue of a goat head because you think of God as a goat is one thing, but worshipping the ground below us and the sun in the sky because its gravitational and magnetic forces control us ever so subtly, not to mention everything else, such as the light and water that we could not live without, is something else altogether, especially when you take into account that God's gravitational and magnetic forces eventually made us develop laws by giving us Ten Commandments, at the very least, if you put any stock in the movie. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
For me, I see the everything as God. I dont really worship things, but I respect all people and things the same as God.

Its basically the idea of the one and all. An equation that unifies everything in existence.



Alot of what I speak about is called Quantum physics.

...

So if we dont believe in God, then God will not exist for us. But if we do believe in God, God will be ever present.

If we go through this life seaking unification with the infinite (all things), we will be following a path of fullness and divine love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said. That's kind of what I have been trying to say here and there.

[kokokolo]

so If you think God is real, God is real for you?

Heres a neat quote around from a scientist that came up with Quantum Mechanics
[ QUOTE ]

Schrödinger's Cat
Schrödinger, one of the scientists who helped form quantum physics, wasn't very happy about quantum theory and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (none of them were). He thought that the idea was absurd. To demonstrate his point, he used the picture of a cat in a closed box. Inside the box is also a radioactive isotope, a detector, and some poison gas. Every hour, the isotope has a 50-50 chance of setting off the detector, which would break the vial and thus kill the cat. Since you can't observe the cat inside of the closed box, it is in a state of uncertainty: both dead and alive. It would only snap out of it when you opened the box to take a peek. This doesn't work with cats, (so don't try it!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Im tellin you, Truth is not Relative.

[ElGrizzle]

I dont see how thats relevant to the way we see the world around us kokokolo



It is entirely possible for us to percieve something with superperception (not unlike that of a God).


T Force I had a feeling thats what you were getting at.

[TForce]

I'm still chalking up most of the man-made phenomena to coincidence. Some people are luckier than others with their powers of "perception". However, if it does happen, it would have to be through God, like a gift that not everybody has, kind of like ESP and so forth. As people get older, they tend to get wiser, have more information to call to their analytical abilities. As always, there are just way too many variables, but nobody ever guesses right 100% of the time.

What I was referring to is God's propensity to deliver quantum actions on primarily a massive scale, and not getting caught up in the minutiae (and calling this "chaos theory", for some unknown reason). God is the only one capable of delivering quantum actions, even though, in certain situations, it can be very easy to believe that we are "on top of the world". Everybody else just relies on luck and manipulation, via every possible method of communication, depending on the subjects' varying degrees of susceptibility to being swayed by it.

[Adam Knowlden]

So worshipping inanimate objects is more credible than worshiping inanimate objects that are shaped by tools?

[TForce]

When lightning strikes, do you consider that an inanimate object?

[l0stsheep]

[ QUOTE ]
When lightning strikes, do you consider that an inanimate object?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, lightning is alive? Lightning is just a natural occurance of electrostatic discharge. So I'm lost.

I don't consider a leaf riding on the wind an animate object.

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When lightning strikes, do you consider that an inanimate object?

[/ QUOTE ]

So I'm lost.


[/ QUOTE ]


Err, lost sheep?

[TForce]

[ QUOTE ]

So, lightning is alive? Lightning is just a natural occurance of electrostatic discharge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, even you are just a complex algorithm of billions of chemical reactions, electrostatic impulses, and probably a few discharges every now and then, though those are probably self-contained and don't exactly escape your sphere of influence, though, from the outside, it may appear that you are maxing out on a given exercise, while from the inside ,there might be some bacteria who witness an actual spark. Well, maybe not. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[kokokolo]

so we are going back to the question, what is the difference between something that is living and something that is not ...

Im pretty sure everybody naturally knows what things are living and what things are not. And we all know a lightning bolt is NOT alive.

[ QUOTE ]

there might be some bacteria who witness an actual spark. Well, maybe not.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you basing your life views off of the movie "what the bleep do we know" ???

[TForce]

I could never force myself to watch a movie that had such a negative outlook on the pursuit of knowledge. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I never caught that first argument about how to judge whether an organism is alive or not, however thick of skin it may have. Some people believe that lightning bolts are one of God's ways of communicating with them, among other things. That whatever they happen to be thinking at that exact point in time happens to be in unison with God's will. Actually, I believe that vastly different cultures have different terms for that same "phenomenon".

[ElGrizzle]

Lightning is very much alive... but does it have being?

Some people experience more being than others.

If we just are, then we are more...

We are God, but sometimes we lose our perception with low habits and clouded thoughts.

I actually enjoyed "what the bleep do we know", because it helped open my mind, and left me with a feeling that "anything is possible", which is quite a divine feeling.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
When lightning strikes, do you consider that an inanimate object?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice way to dodge my question. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

We're talking about worshipping the earth, the actual planet. If you want to include the atmosphere, doesn't matter. Do you believe the earth, the rocks, dirt, etc is literally alive.

If so worshipping a giant rock is no more rational than worshiping a rock that human hands have formed into a animal.

Both are idol worship.

[ QUOTE ]
Lightning is very much alive... but does it have being?

Some people experience more being than others.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are basing this off of? Are you into the New Age movement?

[ QUOTE ]
We are God, but sometimes we lose our perception with low habits and clouded thoughts.


[/ QUOTE ]

No human being is anywhere near God. If you really believe that you are deceived my friend.

<font color="red"> 6For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

7God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

8O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

9Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

10Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

11The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

12The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

13Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

14Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

</font>

If you are God, answer God's challenge when His position was questioned:

<font color="blue">2Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

8Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
</font>

[ElGrizzle]

See this is the problem, back when they took the 30 gospels out of the bible, and transcribed it into 4, they left out the part that said God was within us.

[l0stsheep]

[ QUOTE ]
See this is the problem, back when they took the 30 gospels out of the bible, and transcribed it into 4, they left out the part that said God was within us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woaaaaaah. Hrm.


If I'm understanding correctly: There were 30 (I've never heard an exact number) gospels which they (do you even know who "they" are?) turned into 4? Is this disregarding the fact that we KNOW the gosepls were not written at the same time (eg John is the latest and mark was probably the first)? So if "they" transcribed the Bible from 30-4, how could we have evidence that says they were written by different people at different times? Luke, the physician(the writer of acts as well) most certainly did not write John.

Please, though, post the "gospel" you are refering to since you make it clear that they "took it out." So you must have it.

Your first post, though, says how we "are" God. Now you say God is within us. The latter is very true. Which are you meaning?

[ElGrizzle]

There were 30 original gospels. Archeologists found them scattered all over Egypt.

The popes took out the gospels that were "gnostic" so they would arguably have more power of the people by seperating God through a third party.

Even Mary Magdelaine had a Gospel.

Gnostic means "to possess spiritual knowledge, or to know". Christianity came from Gnosticism, and bloomed from politics.

http://sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/index.htm



"The technical inner teachings of Gnosticism were assailed by the subsequently orthodox Church Fathers with misrepresentation and overwhelmed with ridicule.

To these onslaughts the Gnostics, as far as we are aware, made no reply; most probably because they were bound by oaths of secrecy on the one hand, and on the other knew well that the mysteries of the inner life could not be decided by vulgar debate.

The mystic teachings of their Gospel were for those who knew the nature of the inner life by direct experience; for the rest they were foolishness."

http://sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/hoj.htm


To say that the original teachings of Christ were within is true. To then logically conclude that God is in all things, then we are not only the creation of God, but God itself.

There are just certain degrees of how much we are aware that we are unified with God.

[l0stsheep]

[ QUOTE ]
There were 30 original gospels. Archeologists found them scattered all over Egypt.

The popes took out the gospels that were "gnostic" so they would arguably have more power of the people by seperating God through a third party.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before stating that there were "30" gospels, you need to further study the time following Christ's death. It's evident you have not; and using an online book review as a source isn't always the best. In fact, there were at least 50+ gospels around in the few hundred years following his death. Why is this? Gnostics and "the popes" were not the only groups at the time.

When you look into the early Christian Church you will find 4 groups (This is in the Second Century C.E. In the first century C.E., Dr. Burton Mack, professor of theology at Claremont School of Theology, says there were roughly 6 different groups:
Jerusalem Pillars (Peter, James, John)
Christ Cult (Paul’s Mission)
Thomas Christians (Early Date)
Q Community
Jesus School (pre-Markan Stories)
Congregation of Israel (Miracle Stories))

Anyways, back to the 4 groups:

Jewish-Christian Adoptionists -- East Palestine. Jesus is a man, not a god or God. Jesus is adopted at his baptism and empowered by God’s Spirit. He also was not born of a Virgin. The Hebrew Bible and some form of the Gospel of Mark and Matthew (reject Paul as a heretic).

Marcionite Christians --Asia-Minor. Dependent on the writings of Paul. Supercede Jewish law. Believed Jesus has no physical attributes and is entirely divine (docetic). Gospel of Luke and the ten letters attributed to Paul. But followed no books from the Hebrew Bible.

Gnostics -- Gnosis is essential for salvation. Most forms rejected the necessity of the death and resurrection of Jesus for salvation. Jesus is inhabited (not adopted) by the Christ at his resurrection = two unique beings in one. God of the Hebrew Bible was evil = abortion. Gnostics compiled a large number of texts. Examples include the Gospels of Thomas, Phillip, Peter and Mary. The Gospel of John was also a favorite of several Gnostic groups.

“Proto-Orthodox” Christians -- Propose Jesus is both fully human and divine in one person: a formulation not finalized until the Council of Nicea in 325 CE.

Essentially, different groups had different beliefs and had books to help support them. The Gnostics, the second popular group to the "proto-orthodox Christians" was a very weird group.

They stressed salvation through gnosis or knowledge of one’s heavenly origins (of which you seem to fit in). The gnostics believed only a few were deemed worthy of "gnosis" and those people were set apart from others. Valentinus, the most famous Gnostic teacher, divided humanity into three categories: 1. the fleshly=unbelievers; 2. soulish =common Christians; and 3. pneumatics or spiritual Gnostics. And here's a funny little tid-bit about them. They longed to be freed from their body, which they said was originally and naturally sinfull, and acend into Heaven. The problem, though, was that they had to fight through the "Heavenly Spheres," what we would call "stars." These spheres, they said, were deamons trying to stop them from getting to Heaven. haha.

Anyways, you have to realize this: Just because someone believes something doesn't mean it is true. The first indicator that the gnostic texts are not sound is the fact that the Gnostics did away with the Hebrew Bible. Paul said all scripture was given through inspiration of God, yet they denied God's word as being false! If this is not reason enough to discount them as true Christians, then I don't know what you need.

[ QUOTE ]

To say that the original teachings of Christ were within is true. To then logically conclude that God is in all things, then we are not only the creation of God, but God itself.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking a snippet of Christian teaching (The Holy Spirit inhabits believers) and turning it into meaning something that is not supported by Christian thought. You can't use A to conclude B, if A disagrees with B. If we were already God, why do we need the Holy Spirit inside of us and use him for guidance? That's duplicative and would not even be needed.

You have to seperate the fact that God CREATED everything, but did not make everything HIM. Answer Oldschool's question, if you are god, of the measure of the foundations of the world. Or, I have a task for you, be without sin. Even for just a day! Walk on water, create something from nothing...display anything that God can do!

A table is not the carpenter. My spit isn't me, even though I made it...

[TForce]

Rather than actually calling myself God, I have used the phrase that I am "an extension of God". Some boundaries I don't much care for crossing. I really don't much care for being affiliated with them, but one of the hallmarks of Islam is this type of belief, that God drives us to do what we do. What can I say? Mohammed beat everybody else to the punch and held on to his self-proclaimed throne for good, despite all of the inherent flaws associated with creating a religion from the survival strains of the wilderness, trying to give credence to the circumstance of being a son of a prostitute, without even having the capacity to write things down, passing his message by word of mouth, though never really revealing anything other than someone else's opinion on how to live life, only to eventually make all of these changes in order to reconcile his message with that of the Christian Bible. The direct literal translation of Islam means "submission to God", however, according to this type of philosophy, no matter what we do, we are carrying out God's will, even if we are flying a 747 into the World Trade Center. I don't buy it. Look where they are now. Dead, dead, dead, and what good ever came out of it? They only pissed off the most influential, arguably the most socially advanced, and arguably the most respected country in the world. I'm going off on quite a tangent there.

Where was I? I don't believe that God is driving us to do anything unless we are carrying out His will, which, in most cases, means minding your own business and not messing with good people who do alot of good things for the world, in general. Let's see here, what do we do for the world? I won't even try to start listing all of the things. This can mean only one thing, that lunatic terrorist splinter groups believe that it is their place in the world to facilitate God's vengeance, as if God really needs someone to carry out vengeance. He's already got his hands full with people starving to death and the warlords that control them. Of course, notice how God's will, justice, is always carried out by the most important, most responsible, and most friendly nations, in general. It is really sad to see idiots insist otherwise. All I can say is look at where all of the ones who insist on killing all of the infidels are.

[Adam Knowlden]

El Grizzle your facts are extremely distorted. The gnostics were a very small, yet noisy group. No scholar gives their writings the same credibility as the gospels.

Furthermore, they believed in "secret knowledge" in other words one attains salvation from gaining secret knowledge.

This is clearly contrary to the teachings of Christ. If you are relying on the gnostic gospels as your source you are working with flawed information from a scriptural standpoint, a historical standpoint, and an archeological standpoint.

I won't address the Holy Spirit comment as that is taken so far out of context its not even worth rebuttling. Anyone who has read John 14 and 15 will know that Christ was not stating anything close to what you just said. With this type of logic we could turn the US Constitution into the Communist Manifesto.

Lastly, I was quoting from the Old Testament so your comment about the gospels has nothing to do with this entire topic.

[TForce]

Makes me wonder if Bin Laden &amp; Co. preach a version that reflects Mohammed's initial stance, back when they were warring Christianity in the Crusades, probably before the Koran was written, or rather, before all of these reconciliations were made.

[TForce]

Well ... I did a little homework, and he actually does use the term, "crusader", though he doesn't come out and actually say that he is referring to the Crusades, but you never know ... deep, deep, down in his mind and every one of his followers, he could very well still be living in the 7th century fighting the crusades, trying to say that they were there first.


In case any of you have ever wondered what lies have gone into this particular propaganda, what it has all been about, check out the seeds of jihad, here:

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans

Published in Al-Quds al-'Arabi on Febuary 23, 1998

Statement signed by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin; Ayman al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihad Group in Egypt; Abu- Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, a leader of the Islamic Group; Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan; and Fazlul Rahman, leader of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said "I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders." The Arabian Peninsula has never--since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas--been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies now spreading in it like locusts, consuming its riches and destroying its plantations. All this is happening at a time when nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have formerly debated the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it.

The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So now they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said "As for the militant struggle, it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty God "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated and oppressed--women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

Almighty God also says "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."