Do you work with a bunch of heathens?

[jeffrobodean]

I just found out I do. Two women in my department who are liberals and I tease them about that - I just found out that they are completely ambivalent about religion and now look at me like I'm nuts for being conservative AND Christian.
I just pull out my keychain that says "Jesus Freak" and smile and walk away. Some day I'll figure out how to handle them....

[Big Wave Dave]

So you tease them about their beliefs, but are offended that they don't embrace yours?


Hmmmmmm.....

[10forty2]

Lead by example my friend....lead by example. We are only held accountable by our efforts to spread God's Word, not by the results that we achieve. Stay strong and true to your faith and make every attempt to share the promises of our Lord, being careful not to turn people away as a result.

In the words of a favorite Baptist hymn...

"Let others see Jesus in you."

[jeffrobodean]

[ QUOTE ]
So you tease them about their beliefs, but are offended that they don't embrace yours?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all. Don't read too much into it.
We kid each other often.

I try to do just as 10forty2 suggests, careful not to offend. There are many here who believe in reincarnation as well and they don't push theirs on me, I don't push mine on them. I just try to walk in His light and let them be curious enough to ask. That's the big reason why I'm transforming my body. I did it for all the wrong reasons before and did not get anywhere. I'm doing it for HIM now, and hopefully, people who know me and wonder how I did it, I can tell them I did it for Him. I try to be a pillar in the world and not a mega phone.

[Dave.]

I think the three of you could benefit from being a little more tolerant of each other (tolerant meaning actually interested in an opposing view, not just putting up with them). Having been both a liberal atheist and now a liberal Christian (not a contradiction in terms, I defy anyone to associate JC with a particular poltical ideology other than his very own), I have learned the value of reasoned debate. You grow much more from it, both intellectually and spiritually, from both strongly advocating your position and also hearing it torn to shreds. Its kind of like weightlifting really. We tear up the muscle (debate with it), feed it , hydrate it, rest it (consideration), and then watch it grow stronger. Inactivity will always lead to weakness.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I just found out I do. Two women in my department who are liberals and I tease them about that - I just found out that they are completely ambivalent about religion and now look at me like I'm nuts for being conservative AND Christian.
I just pull out my keychain that says "Jesus Freak" and smile and walk away. Some day I'll figure out how to handle them....

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, I'm liberal and a Christian. If you're asking advice I wouldn't do anything to flaunt it in front of them. You don't want to be one of those hypocritical Christians. Be a good example of what a Christian is, if you tease them you lose all credibility with them if they ever want you to witness to them.

[10forty2]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to be a pillar in the world and not a mega phone.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's awesome brother! I'm gonna keep that one in my pocket!!!

[jeffrobodean]

^^^I'm glad someone is not taking me too literally here /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

So do you think you should tell someone if they die and don't know Christ they will go to hell?

The simple truth is the law of God stirs the conscience. It convicts people, that is what Paul preached and how both he and Christ preached.


Romans 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

John 3:4
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

It makes people aware they are sinners, so much so Christ was murdered for it, and the apostles were martyered.

Here is Stephen before the religious leaders:

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Christ said, rejoice when you are hated for His sake. First you will receive a reward, second, you are in good company. The ancients hated the very prophets God sent, and killed them!

Here is Jeremiah, thrown in a dungeon for not being complacent and soothing itching ears, even yet he preached:

15 They were angry with Jeremiah and had him beaten and imprisoned in the house of Jonathan the secretary, which they had made into a prison.

16 Jeremiah was put into a vaulted cell in a dungeon, where he remained a long time. 17 Then King Zedekiah sent for him and had him brought to the palace, where he asked him privately, "Is there any word from the LORD ?"
"Yes," Jeremiah replied, "you will be handed over to the king of Babylon."


Christ clearly taught that if you do not believe in Him, you will die in your sins:


John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John and Jesus preached repentance. You can't repent if you do not know what you need to repent from! Clearly the fact they were sinners was preached:

1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Here are the apostles refusing to compromise:

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16"What are we going to do with these men?" they asked. "Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name."

18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

21After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old.


In our weakness the Holy Spirit's power is manifested:


29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

I can go on and on too. Clearly the gospel is offensive to sinners, yet should we seek to please men or God?

Paul answered that:

Galatians 1:10
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.

We need to preach, and not candycoat sin. Hell is real and a serious offense. We should warn the world of its fate,

28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Sure we need to love those in the world and be tolerant of them, but we do not need to hide the fact they are living in sin and sooth their itching ears.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

[given_to_fly]

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Wow, I don't know why this verse never stood out to me before. How absolutely true! Studying philosophy in a secular university has only made me see this more and more every day. Today I brought up a deadly blow to Kantian philosophy (learned partly from Norm Geisler) to my teacher of Kant who worked under someone named Wilfred Sellars (any hardcore philosophers on the board might know him) and I was completely unsatisfied with the response given by my professor. God forbid Kant was wrong!

Sorry to hijack, on with the discussion /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[newbuilder]

Ther is only one man that I have worked with who has said that he is a heathen and dances around gold idols.

[jeffrobodean]

I told them that I would pray for their souls, I don't think they took me too seriously, but I did anyway. Before my day is done, I will convert at least one.

[Hooah101]

[ QUOTE ]
Before my day is done, I will convert at least one.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome jeff!

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
I told them that I would pray for their souls, I don't think they took me too seriously, but I did anyway. Before my day is done, I will convert at least one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck bro.

[jeffrobodean]

Funny, she asked me this morning if I prayed for her. I told her of course I did because even though she's used to the heat of Columbia (where she's from), where's she's going is much hotter than that. She was taken aback a little, I think.

[Hooah101]

r they firefighters also jeff?

[jeffrobodean]

Nah-
This is my paying job. I'm in an education related field.
I do my firefighting gig for free.

[XenoWang]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny, she asked me this morning if I prayed for her. I told her of course I did because even though she's used to the heat of Columbia (where she's from), where's she's going is much hotter than that. She was taken aback a little, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think telling people they're gonna burn, even if you believe it, is a little counter-productive? I'm not even saying it's untrue, but I don't think that's the best way to try to evangelize.

[tarheelsykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think telling people they're gonna burn, even if you believe it, is a little counter-productive? I'm not even saying it's untrue, but I don't think that's the best way to try to evangelize.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I would never water down the Word, but to start with that is not going to get them on fire for the Lord

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think telling people they're gonna burn, even if you believe it, is a little counter-productive? I'm not even saying it's untrue, but I don't think that's the best way to try to evangelize.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so bro, first you are twisting what I am saying. Hell is vital to the doctrine of salvation. To exclude it is completely anti-biblical. Please demonstrate a biblical case of this.

Christ and the apostles preached along with all the great evangelists of the past like Spurgeon, Whitfield, and modern day evengelists like Billy Grahm, Charles Stanley, and Jack Van Impe etc.

I would like to see how anyone can preach salvation and not include the judgement of rejecting salvation! The only way to do this is to sooth itching ears and candy coat sin.

In fact here is a exert from Spurgeon, one of the most powerful preachers to ever live:

[ QUOTE ]
Charles Haddon Spurgeon said: "In hell there is no hope. They have not even the hope of dying--the hope of being annihilated. They are forever--forever--forever lost! On every chain in hell, there is written "forever". In the fires there, blaze out the words, "forever". Above their heads, they read, "forever". Their eyes are galled and their hearts are pained with the thought that it is "forever". Oh, if I could tell you tonight that hell would one day be burned out, and that those who were lost might be saved, there would be a jubilee in hell at the very thought of it. But it cannot be--it is "forever" they are cast into the outer darkness."8
Christopher Love uses an illustration to try and help us understand what eternity means: "Suppose all the mountains of the earth were mountains of sand, and many more mountains still added thereto, till they reached up to heaven, and a little bird should once in every thousand years take one (grain of) sand of this mountain, there would be an innumerable company of years pass over before that mass of sand would be consumed and taken away, and yet this time would have an end; and it would be happy for man, if hell were no longer than this time; but this is man's misery in hell, he shall be in no more hope of coming out after he hath been there millions of years, then he was when he was first cast in there; for his torments shall be to eternity, without end, because the God that ****s him is eternal."

[/ QUOTE ]

He was infamous for the amount of souls he lead to the Lord.

[ QUOTE ]
Eryl Davies wrote in his book The Wrath of God: "The eternity of hell's sufferings should make us the more zealous and eager to tell people of the only One who is able to rescue them. Do we shrink from declaring these solemn truths? Does the thought of hell displease us? Remember that God will be glorified even through the eternal sufferings of unbelievers in hell. His injured majesty will be vindicated...What is supreme in the purpose of God in the election and reprobation of men is His own glory, and hell also will glorify the justice, power, and wrath of God throughout eternity. In the meantime it is our responsibility to pray and work for the salvation of sinners before such awful punishment overtakes them."

[/ QUOTE ]

For example, let's look at the most famous sermon Christ preached, the Sermon on the Mount.

<font color="red"> 21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
</font>

What can we gather from this...First Christ is revealing sin. He is opening the law to His audience. "Thou salt not Kill", now what is insane here is that Christ actually raised the bar! Whereas under the Law, you were only forbidden from committing the act. Under the Law of Grace, you were forbidden from even speaking or thinking sin!

The result of living this way and not repenting?

<font color="red">but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
</font>

<font color="brown"> 27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
</font>

Under the Law of Sin, you could not commit the act of adultery, here Christ is revealing the fact that we have broken God's law as He raises the standard to the fact that you can not even look with lust!

You need to liteally gauge adultery out of your life! Failing to do so will lead to hell!

That is vividly clear.

So Christ opened the Law and revealed sin, then preached the result of dying in these sins, the Judgement to come. On top of that he showed that the law extends beyond the actual act, but the desire to act on that sin!

Christ continues:

<font color="brown">31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

</font>

Christ preached repentence and judgement in hell. The crowd was amazed by this and His methods obviously worked as the crowd thronged Him everywhere He went and people begged for forgiveness.

<font color="green"> 28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
</font>

A majority of Christ's parables, which revealed the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, were teaching on hell.

<font color="red">34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

</font>

There are dozens of examples,

<font color="red">Matthew 8:12
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. </font>

<font color="green"> Matthew 22:13
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. </font>

<font color="brown"> Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. </font>

<font color="green"> Psalm 21:9
9 At the time of your appearing
you will make them like a fiery furnace.
In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
and his fire will consume them.
</font>

<font color="blue"> 19 By the wrath of the LORD Almighty
the land will be scorched
and the people will be fuel for the fire; </font>

There are so many references to hell and God's warnings that it is real, literal, and totally hopeless. There is no reason to not use the Judgement of God to convict sinners. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

In fact if used in the correct way, as the Lord and apostles used it, the doctrine of hell appeals to every man's innate sense of justice.

<font color="green"> 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

</font>

I'm am not saying to be an annoying "Hell fire and Brimestone" preacher, but to teach the clear Judgement of God, to warn sinners of the Judgement to come!

If we do not preach to fear the Lord, there is no real reason to repent.

If not for the fear of the Lord and being ashamed for our sin, why would someone genuniely repent and seek forgiveness?

Christians typically tend to preach this message that "If you get saved you'll be happy and have better life". That's full of errors. The apostles died gruesome deaths. The bible states if you're a Christian you will suffer persecution. That is not going to seem like a better life to someone who is carnally minded, why would someone want to to seek Christ's forgiveness? Because they have a genuine fear of the Lord and are ashamed of their sins.

Many non-Christians actually like their lives and like living in sin. Its by conviction of the Holy Spirit and fear of the Judgement to come that people seek genuine repentance.

<font color="red"> 22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. </font>

<font color="brown"> 3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

</font>

The work of the Holy Spirit is to witness the truth of Christ, that involves the judgement of sin:

<font color="blue"> 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

</font>

There is no biblical reason to not preach judgement.

I am not saying to be an annoying hell fire and brimestone preacher, most who preach like that are erroring as well.

People get annoyed with hellfire and brimestone preaching because they do not know why they should go to hell. Its annoying because most people think they are good and do not deserved God's Justice.

The effective way is to open the law, show people they are not good, but are sinful, then teach them about Judgement and appeal to their sense of Justice.

Preaching about hell in an errouneous way, ie not explaining God's Justice, aggetates people because sinners are blinded and tend to think they are good people and God will forgive them without Christ's blood, but instead because they've done a lot of good deeds.

However, even when they do understand this many will still be offended. There is a reason people wanted to kill Jesus. He revealed their sinful lives. Much like the prophets of old, they were murdered for exposing sin. Never-the-less they were executing the will of God. A martyr is someone who dies unjustly for doing what God tells them to do, such as Christ, the apostles and the prophets. Its not just dying for the sake of dying. Self-sacrifice and martyrdom are not the same thing.

The methods Christ used to preach hell are excellent and should not be altered. Open the law of God, show people they have broken God's laws, and that there is a judgement for their crimes. Then bring in the doctrine of salvation!

Does that make sense of my position bro? /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jeffrobodean]

Thanks for that OS. That was great.

I don't think it's a bad way to evangelize. Pastor Ron Parsley who lives near me used to preach like that, he might still do. It may be ineffective in some cases, but not all. Sometimes it takes fear in the hearts of men to make them seek the truth. Perhaps she will think about that future and ask me tomorrow how she can avoid it. Who knows...

[Adam Knowlden]

Well there is a biblical method to invoking hell into your preaching. The main component being that hell is a place for the administration of God's Justice.

<font color="red"> Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. </font>

God has put eternity in everyone's heart. Deep down everyone fears death, because it is not natural, and they know there is an eternal destiny for them. Some may supress this, but it is there as the bible teaches.There is an effective way to tap into the knowledge of eternity God has put in everyone.

The key is to show them WHY hell exists and WHY they will go there, not just say they're going there.

If someone just starts preaching "You're going to hell! Turn or burn!" that irritates people, because they do not know why they should go to hell they just see you as a bigot and narrow minded.

But if you show them the Law of God, and that we have all broken that Law, then teach the perfect Justice of God, that God Must Judge sin to stay true to Himself, and that Justice will be administered for their crimes, people understand hell and do not see it as narrow minded, but very logical.

We all have an innate sense of Justice. For example, if a child is raped you feel disgusted and want justice for the criminal. We can all relate to that!

Even if the felon pleads with the Judge, "Judge I know I raped that child, but overall I've been a great person!" Doing 10000 good deeds does not remove the crime of rape. That is very logical and people can relate.

It is the same with God, He is perfectly Just. He can not allow sin to go unpunished. A good work will not erase the fact that we have sinned.

By appealing to the human desire for justice and God's perfect Justice we can effectively preach the Judgement of sin, in a way that makes sense to people, and is unoffensive.

Justice does not offend most people, unless there on the looney fringe.

Some may not believe anyway, and some may get mad, but its pretty easy to show someone they've broken God's commands to not lust, steal, lie, blaspheme, hate, etc and show them that according to God's justice they have to answer for these crimes. If they get mad, there's no reason to worry, the pharisees hated Christ when he told them they were the children of hell and their father was the devil. But He showed them how they broke the law, and they refused repentance. They hated him, but they could not argue against His wisdom.

If this approach is taken, it really does work and hell makes sense to people. It can be used to relate to our innate sense of justice.

For example, if someone murdered a member of your family and never got caught, would you want God to bring Justice if that person died?

Of course! Your innate sense of justice demands it!

We can understand that God's sense of Justice is infinitely more vast and that He will deliver judgement to all who break His Laws.

Appeling to the human desire for Justice, via the doctrine of hell, worked for Christ and works very effectively today.

Paul used this method when he stood in front of Felix:

<font color="green">24 And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was a Jew, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25 And as Paul reasoned about righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come, Felix trembled and answered, "Go thy way for this time. </font>

<font color="blue"> Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Acts 18:19
And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.
Acts 24:25
And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.
</font>

<font color="blue"> James 5:19-20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. </font>

<font color="brown"> 2 Tim. 2:24-26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. </font>

<font color="purple"> Col. 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
</font>

In fact I would be very leary of any other way someone is receiving repentance. Without an understanding that there is a judgement for sinning, I do not see how one can seek repentance for sinning.

[10forty2]

Wow, was I ever misinterpereted. I guess everybody thinks that I meant you shouldn't tell people about God because it might upset them. Not my intention at all. What I WAS saying was that a "bible-beater" gets most people to turn away instead of towards God. Of course I'm sure that there's a select few that will repent if you were to walk up to them and forcefully say,

"You're going to hell if you don't change."

I'd be the first to reply to that by saying,

"Get away from me freak! You don't know anything about me. Who are you to come in here talking to me like that?"

And I think the majority of the population would do the same.

What I meant was, you have to look for opportunites, ever how slight they may be, to witness and to appeal to the person who is in the frame of mind for counsel. That appeal should be out of love and also include the results of not accepting Jesus as their Savior. It should NOT come across as,

"Nanny, nanny boo, boo....I'm going to heaven and you're not 'cause you don't go to church and you're a heathen... so there!"

A preacher at a revival I attended a couple of years ago presented that there are "Teachable Moments." These are the moments that we are at our most vulnerable and are willing to accept the teaching. Sometimes, these are the times that we are lowest in our lives and are ready to absorb a message of hope. I think that God places us in these situations so that we are stripped of any potential arrogance or insulence. I also thing that God places Christians in the paths of those who are teachable. These teachable moments are the times when we actually listen and are willing to get down on our knees and place the emphasis on God where it should be in the first place.

Jesus said that when we pray we should not spread ashes on our faces and wear sackcloth and wander around wailing, trying to invoke the spirit. But rather we should go into a closet silently and reverently on our knees and pray to our Father. There should be no ulterior motive to our conversation with God except to honestly converse, bring our concerns and requests to Him, praise, and worship Him. We should never pray to impress others.

Likewise, we should never witness to impress others either!

I would hope that my life represents the fact that I am saved by the grace of God and that I believe and place my faith in Jesus as my Savior. That alone provides me ample opportunities to witness either verbally or silently through example. A good tree bears good fruit and everyone knows by the fruit that the tree is good. The tree doesn't have to tell everyone that it's good, but many people will come to the tree to partake of this good fruit and will learn the secrets of the good fruit as a result.

Jesus also told us to let our lights shine. We SHOULD witness and are in fact charged with the responsibility as Christians to witness for Christ.

My light shines in many ways, not the least of which is simply being a pillar and not a mega phone!

[jeffrobodean]

^^Very well put 1042-
I think I have been taken quite literally as well. I of course did not walk right up to her and tell her to "Turn or Burn". We have an old man in my town who every Saturday goes out for a jog holding up a large sign on a stick that says that. He points it all the cars driving down the street. I personally, don't think this method is too effective. I am too young in my walk and too shy to walk up to someone and say that. I am making light conversation with them to see where they are in life and then, perhaps, the Holy Spirit will fill me with the right words to say.

[tarheelsykes]

[ QUOTE ]
^^Very well put 1042-
I think I have been taken quite literally as well. I of course did not walk right up to her and tell her to "Turn or Burn". We have an old man in my town who every Saturday goes out for a jog holding up a large sign on a stick that says that. He points it all the cars driving down the street. I personally, don't think this method is too effective. I am too young in my walk and too shy to walk up to someone and say that. I am making light conversation with them to see where they are in life and then, perhaps, the Holy Spirit will fill me with the right words to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think you could do it better than that. You have to know about that person first, where they have been, where they are so you seem to care about them as a person. People have to believe you care for them before they want to hear what you have to say.

"Preach the Gospel, if necessary, use words"

[Adam Knowlden]

I was just asking a question, not attacking guys.

I do have to state however, that experience shows that teaching the judgement of God to sinners is highly effective and unoffensive. We should go with experience, and not how we feel.

"You have to know about that person first, where they have been, where they are so you seem to care about them as a person. People have to believe you care for them before they want to hear what you have to say. "

I don't think you have to know someone intimately for them to know you care about them.

For example, a person in a emergency sitation is not going to deny the redcross worker's aid because they don't know them intimately.

They are going to be very grateful for their help. The same with preaching. If we show sinners we care about their eternal desitny by appealing to their conscience and innate sense of justice, we can invoke the same response. When you show people genuine desire for thier soul, people are going to react. If you are harsh and do not explain why they need repentance they are going to be offended as I explained.

Same with first aid. If you get hit by a car and come to in the hospital and all of a sudden someone starts wrapping your body up in bandages or starts sticking needles in your body its going to invoke panic. But if the doctor explains "sir you have been hit by a car, if I do not tend these wounds you will die" you will respond gratefully!

The doctor has explained the results of the actions and is showing a genuine need to help them without any alterior motive. He has reduced stress and explained the situation instead of creating an atmosphere of tension.

The key is people do not like to feel judged when they don't feel they've done anything wrong. The bible is clear the law of God stirs the conscience and shows people they've sinned. Once they understand they've sinned against a Holy God and have to face Him on Judgement Day they look at their life in a new perspective. Sin becomes real and an issue that needs dealt with.

I'm not just making this up, this is how evangelism has worked for centuries. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif If we waited until we knew people intimatley hardly anyone would be saved.

<font color="red"> 1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you."
3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
"By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

</font>

[tarheelsykes]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't addressing you at all Tarheel, but was answering XenoWang.

I do have to state however, that experience shows that teaching the judgement of God to sinners is highly effective and unoffensive. We should go with experience, and not how we feel.

"You have to know about that person first, where they have been, where they are so you seem to care about them as a person. People have to believe you care for them before they want to hear what you have to say. "

I don't think you have to know someone intimately for them to know you care about them.

For example, a person in a emergency sitation is not going to deny the redcross worker's aid because they don't know them intimately.

They are going to be very grateful for their help. The same with preaching. If we show sinners we care about their eternal desitny by appealing to their conscience and innate sense of justice, we can invoke the same response. When you show people genuine desire for thier soul, people are going to react. If you are harsh and do not explain why they need repentance they are going to be offended as I explained.

Same with first aid. If you get hit by a car and come to in the hospital and all of a sudden someone starts wrapping your body up in bandages or starts sticking needles in your body its going to invoke panic. But if the doctor explains "sir you have been hit by a car, if I do not tend these wounds you will die" you will respond gratefully!

The doctor has explained the results of the actions and is showing a genuine need to help them without any alterior motive. He has reduced stress and explained the situation instead of creating an atmosphere of tension.

The key is people do not like to feel judged when they don't feel they've done anything wrong. The bible is clear the law of God stirs the conscience and shows people they've sinned. Once they understand they've sinned against a Holy God and have to face Him on Judgement Day they look at their life in a new perspective. Sin becomes real and an issue that needs dealt with.

I'm not just making this up, this is how evangelism has worked for centuries. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif If we waited until we knew people intimatley hardly anyone would be saved.

<font color="red"> 1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah a second time: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you."
3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
"By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I was never saying to know someone intimately, my point was, which you then agreed with, that we have to show a caring side. as 10forty2 said, a bible beater is not going to get peoples attentions. This alienates someone and they are going to avoid what is said.
People do trust a paramedic to care for them, but that is cause they recognize the person's uniform, they know they are qualified to assist. If you go to evangelize to someone, and they dont know anything about you, how credible are your words going to be to them? Too many people have already been preached to by someone who got up on a soapbox, condemed what they did, and told them they were going to hell unless they changed. Brow beating them is not going to help open their heart to the Lord at all. Should you make it clear to them that Jesus is our savior, that without him, we are not saved? ABSOLUTLY. But there is a proper way to convey that, and a detrimental way as well, and we need to be careful to look to the Holy Spirit to insure we go about it the right way. If we get overzealous and do it by our own power, we lose.

[gonko]

So you want to convert through fear of hell rather than love of God?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I was never saying to know someone intimately, my point was, which you then agreed with, that we have to show a caring side.

[/ QUOTE ]

And also a stern side.

However, this quote seemed to me that I would have to know the person intimately before I could preach God's Judgement, as though you can preach about CHrist and not include the entire message from the get go? Maybe I inturperted this wrong. If I did I appologize:

[ QUOTE ]
You have to know about that person first, where they have been, where they are so you seem to care about them as a person.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
but that is cause they recognize the person's uniform, they know they are qualified to assist. If you go to evangelize to someone, and they dont know anything about you,

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't have to know anything about me please don't use my analogy falsely. You are missing my point. My point was they don't have to have a relationship with me for me to evangelize effectively or preach about God's Judgement. The point of the paramedic is the service they are providing, the administering of the life saving medicine, saving the person's life. By appealing to that, the person is receptive to receiving the life giving services they provide.

They do not have to know the paramedic, the paramedic has to explain to the person they are there to save their life.

Just like sinners have to know about Christ (the medicine). We are "saving their soul" by teaching them that they need "medicine". By appealing to their sense of justice we can invoke the exact same sense of genuine love.

[ QUOTE ]
many people have already been preached to by someone who got up on a soapbox, condemed what they did, and told them they were going to hell unless they changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know who you're referring to, I never recommend comparing your life to someone else's. We are to show them the law of God, not compare them to our life. I don't recall ever stating to use any other method.

[ QUOTE ]
Brow beating them is not going to help open their heart to the Lord at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it would. I said teaching them the judgement of God will. I have given dozens of biblical examples thus far demonstrating this.

[ QUOTE ]
[Should you make it clear to them that Jesus is our savior, that without him, we are not saved? ABSOLUTLY.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this demands the inclusion of the doctrine of hell. I think the majority of people who have heard about Christ and have not converted have done so because the entire message is not included. By ommiting GOd's justice from the gospel it makes no sense. They see no reason to accept Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
But there is a proper way to convey that, and a detrimental way as well, and we need to be careful to look to the Holy Spirit to insure we go about it the right way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moreover, we should study the scriptures to see how Christ and the apostles did so, which I have demonstrated. That is the proper way, in fact the biblical way is the only way.

[ QUOTE ]
If we get overzealous and do it by our own power, we lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if we follow the biblical methods, we win everytime, whether salvation is received or not.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
So you want to convert through fear of hell rather than love of God?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are putting words in my mouth. I do not have to defend a strawman attack.

Please read everything bro.

How do you know God loves you? Because CHrist took your punishment (death and hell) upon Himself. That is the entire concept of salvation...you do not have go be eternally seperated from God for your sins for eternity (hell).

If you do not understand the doctrine of hell (that you will be seperated from God for eternity without Christ, in a literal prison, ie gehenna, the lake of fire), you will not understand salvation. That is so plain from a biblical standpoint, I don't understand why I am defending this. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Let's look at John 3:16, the Love verse:

<font color="red"> 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. </font>

God gave His Son so you would not perish! That is hell my friend!

I think you guys are saying I think we need to be hellfire and ****ation preachers. You are not reading my entire posts if you are gathering that.

I said that every apostle, CHrist, and the prophets taught the Judgement of God. Omiting this from the gospel is to completely desecrate the cross. THe gospel means "Good news" Good news about what! That you will not perish and die in your sins! There is nothing wrong with preaching that. Every evangelists does. Hell appeals to our natural sense of justice. It is only when people do not understand what sin is that hell offends them. If the biblical approach is used, hell can be preached effectively and in fact this is the method used in the bible.

Look at the next verse!

<font color="red">17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned </font>

Guys please stop and read my posts before responding because my words are being twisted.

I don't think we disagree here, just miscommunication. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tarheelsykes]

Alright, Adam we are going back and forth, but we are for the same thing. We do need to follow the Biblical method, and as we do be sure we ask the Holy Spirit to lead our words as we follow that method. This has gotten off point, my reason for making my original post was cause I wanted to convey the point that if we as Christians are not careful, we can speak outside the Spirit and hurt the testimony. I dont disagree with what you are saying we need to share at all, my point was the delivery. Sorry if it led to any misunderstanding.

[gonko]

"If you do not understand the doctrine of hell (that you will be seperated from God for eternity without Christ, in a literal prison, ie gehenna, the lake of fire), you will not understand salvation. That is so plain from a biblical standpoint, I don't understand why I am defending this."

Old School, I respect the time you've put into your biblical studies, but don't condescend to me. I understand the theological concepts your speaking of. But I still feel a great deal of evangelistic preaching preys on peoples apprehension regarding the afterlife. I'm not condemning your understanding of hell and the part it plays in your faith, but discussion was started about dealing with people who believed differently than you. Ultimately, to a non-Christian, all the lines of scripture you quote have no intrinsic meaning. That is not an authority they acknowledge and citing it constantly is a fairly cyclical argument. If you want people to understand, and possibly join, your faith you have to let them understand, in organic terms how it can effect and fit into their lives. How you believe it would better their lives. I think people need mature and conscious relationship with religion instead of simply imbibing without thought.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
but don't condescend to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did I do so? I simply asked not to put words in my mouth or use fallacious arguements.

I think that is a fair request if you want to debate me.

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, to a non-Christian, all the lines of scripture you quote have no intrinsic meaning

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated to appeal to their conscience and gave several examples of natural law, which is universal, and appealing to our natural sense of justice.

The biblical verses were for the benefit of the Christians, showing them biblical examples of the concepts I was explaining.

[ QUOTE ]
think people need mature and conscious relationship with religion instead of simply imbibing without thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you respect the bible studies then if anything you will agree that I have demonstrated that accepting Christ does not mean checking your brain in at the door when going to church.

[ QUOTE ]
How you believe it would better their lives. I

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's use this arguement you have presented....

From your case, how would accepting Christ better enrich my life in the following hypothetical...

I have a beautiful wife, a great job, make 6 figures and am a sucessful bodybuilder.

Pleae demonstrate how Christ will make my life better.



For all:

I think this really help:

http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm

[gonko]

Its difficult to discern tone over a computer screen. I took the "That is so plain from a biblical standpoint, I don't understand why I am defending this." statement as questioning my own intellect. My bad if that was not your intention.

Anyway, there are mutlitudes of directions to go in when trying to discern if someone has a void they are trying to fill, if they seem to be seeking a higher power. "Are you happy? Do you feel something is missing? How do you define your relationship to your fellow man? Are you angry inside?" Purely temporal concerns are not what I was talking about. Obviously you have more opinions on how Christianity would benefit someones life than I do, and I would think that would go beyond having an attractive wife, some kids and money. But if you feel someone has a void in their lives without Christ than you should be able discuss how your religion will fill their void. More than doctrine, a successful religion is an everyday way of life.

[Adam Knowlden]

No I meant no sarcasm, sorry if it seemed that way bro. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I agree about intent behind a screen.

But continueing with the hypothetical:

[ QUOTE ]
"Are you happy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very! I have a gorgeous wife, a loving family and very fulfilling career!

[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel something is missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't think of anything, my life is everything I dreamed it would be and more! In fact I just got a promotion at work!

[ QUOTE ]
How do you define your relationship to your fellow man?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great! I am a boy scout leader as well I volunteer at the homeless shelter on the weekend. I'm a really good person. Believe me there's a lot of people who are worse than me!

[ QUOTE ]
Are you angry inside?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all! I feel great and love life.

Why should I accept Christ?

[ QUOTE ]
if you feel someone has a void in their lives without Christ than you should be able discuss how your religion will fill their void.

[/ QUOTE ]

But my character has no voids, in his eyes everything is great.

[ QUOTE ]
lives without Christ than you should be able discuss how your religion will fill their void.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the man who sees nothing wrong with living in sin, its going to be hard to convince him you have a better way of life. Especially if by the world's standards he is better off than you.

How can a Christian who makes 15000 a year, has no wife, a crummy job, and a rusty car, convince a millionaire with everything you can think of going his way that he has a better life?

You see we need to show them that coming to Christ is a result of the knowledge that we have sinned in the eyes of a Holy God and there will be a day when we have to face a perfectly Just God!

Most people think "God is good, He'll let me off, I'm do a lot of nice deeds". But the fact is if God is good , He can not let sin go unpunished by reason of His nature. The very characteristic people tend to think God will let them go for is the very thing that will get them condemned!

As you said, "How do you treat your fellow man?" When the knowledge that we have sinned against God is shown to someone who is unsaved, they realize they have sinned against God! WHen King David broke every one of the 10 commandments when he had Bathseba's husband killed to take her for himself, he did not say, "Oh I did a very inhumane thing, against my fellow man!" No he said, "God I have sinned against YOU and YOU alone!"

The law reveals that we have to give an account for breaking God's Laws and that by His very nature of Justice, He must punish sin whereever it is found.

If God is Just, He cannot let liars, thieves, adulters, go, He must bring them to Justice.

Modern evengelism has reduced the cross to "Life Enhancement" which is why we see staggering statistics of backslidding Christians. When life gets tough, these stony seeds have no root and people give up Christ. They treated it more like an experiement to get a buzz.

Peace and joy are the fruits of salvation, but modern evangelism is replacing the roots with the fruits.

THe cross is about repentance and salvation from eternal death. There's no reason to change the message of the gospel.

The issue is not about happiness but righteousness.

<font color="red"> Proverbs 11:4
Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death. </font>

[War5475]

Hey bro! I dont think you did anything wrong. We dont know how the whole situation went down. You told her the truth and one way or the other she has to decide how she wants to take that.

The only thing I may have added to what you said was. Jesus never minsed words to unbelievers he was upfront and honest with them. Just like im being with you. Insert your comment here. I would have also inserted some scripture like the rich man entering heaven conversation, and also the Depart from me i know ye not! But Jesus never codeled anyone. He simple was honest and truthfull and this took alot of people off balance as you said she did. What did the rich man do after Jesus told him what he had to do to go to heaven? Was it possible for him to do that? No, so thats why he left. It sounds like she had a simular experiance. All you can do is throw the seed. In this day and age God has hardened so many peoples hearts that you cant possible know them all so you have to try with all of them.

And never apologize for your beleifs. Why tip toe around because people wont accept the truth? All we can do is lead bye example and spread the gospel. There is somre really great parts to the gospel but there is also some really bad stuff too. When people dont accept it.

So anyway march on Brother!

[gr0undz3r0]

Nice post OS...
/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif