What really makes me doubt

[jlands]

Honestly what really makes me doubt my faith are some of the things that Christianity has turned into.

Many have said homosexuals will all burn in hell. And don't get me wrong. I am not gay and I am not for being gay, but why can't homosexuals come to church?

God said homosexuality is wrong right? But didn't He also say lieing, stealing, greed, envy etc.. were all wrong? So those of us that commit those on a daily basis should all burn in hell too. So really the only person who should be in a church or worship is Jesus.

Don't quote me five hundred lines from the Bible, because it doesn't change the fact. WE are judging people. WE have no right to do so, but WE are deciding who can go to church.

Find me one passage in the Bible where Jesus said "Oh, you committed this sin. You can't ask for salvation."

Sin is sin. Sin is disobediance of God. There are no levels of sin. The only sin you can not be forgiven for is turning away from Jesus.

I honestly believe that the majority of Christians have strayed from what God intended. Myself included.

Jesus taught in the street or on a hill side or on a boat or on the shore, but I don't know of him ever teaching in a temple. Yet most pastors, preachers, etc.. always say "we need more money, you have to tithe, we can't spread the word without your support." How much money does it cost to talk to someone?

The church I am currently trying to disassociate myself from wants to be a "Top 15 Baptist" church in the country. Why? For God or for the prestige? Joel Olsteen writes all these books claiming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Funny I don't remember Jesus making any boasts or claims.

I wonder if God looks down on this earth and cries over the perversion that some people have turned christianity into.

[jeffrobodean]

The problem that I have with your specific question / subject here - not trying to go on a tangent - is that God does forgive the sinners who repent. Homosexuals need to repent and STOP being a homosexual. Yes, that does sound ridiculous I guess, but a murderer will not get into heaven by continuing to murder AFTER he has asked for forgiveness.

[tarheelsykes]

I agree with your statements, unfortunately too many Christians do judge people. They dont show them the love they deserve. I used to be bad about judging homosexuals myself, until I saw my wife, how she would talk to them, ask how everything was. Not once did she ever say that she agreed with their lifestyle, and she would say it was a sin, but she never judged, only loved them. It is way to common how people are judged when they walk into a church, instead of shown love. One of the largest churches in this area of Florida is named "without walls" cause they are focused on getting out into the community to share with people, not sit in their church and wait for repentant people to come in.
i've recently started reading The Man in The Mirror by Patrick Worley. The second chapter of that book talks about how we too often live unexamined lives. We say we are Christians, but we dont look deeper at our lives, realizing the things we need to change.We dont realize we judge homosexuals, or those of another race. We dont realize we desire material things, or put too much into work. I think this is what Churches need to work on, creating mature followers of Christ who are a true light in the community, living like Christ, not the High Priests or scribes

[XenoWang]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem that I have with your specific question / subject here - not trying to go on a tangent - is that God does forgive the sinners who repent. Homosexuals need to repent and STOP being a homosexual. Yes, that does sound ridiculous I guess, but a murderer will not get into heaven by continuing to murder AFTER he has asked for forgiveness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask them to STOP being homosexual? That's ridiculous. The Bible never claims that homosexuality as a biological and mental state is sinful. It only states that homosexual activity is sinful so therefore I imagine that chaste homosexuals are just fine in God's book if they believe in Christ.

[jeffrobodean]

The Bible does state that homosexuality is a sin. Period.

[XenoWang]

Then perhaps you're reading a different Bible. Nowhere in it does it say if you are attracted to your own gender, that is a sin. There are verses stating that actual homosexual acts are sinful but it doesn't say the attraction itself is.

[jlands]

[ QUOTE ]
i've recently started reading The Man in The Mirror by Patrick Worley

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellant book. Though I don't agree with 100% it is a very good book.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem that I have with your specific question / subject here - not trying to go on a tangent - is that God does forgive the sinners who repent. Homosexuals need to repent and STOP being a homosexual. Yes, that does sound ridiculous I guess, but a murderer will not get into heaven by continuing to murder AFTER he has asked for forgiveness.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine. Someone murders once and they are a murderer. It's a sin. Fine. You judge. When you judge you are sinning. So I guess that means you won't go to heaven until you stop judging?
You go to heaven when you accept Jesus into your life. It doesn't matter about the sin. One sin is no greater then another, but here you are saying being gay is a greater sin then you judging them.

[ QUOTE ]

The Bible does state that homosexuality is a sin. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Then perhaps you're reading a different Bible. Nowhere in it does it say if you are attracted to your own gender, that is a sin. There are verses stating that actual homosexual acts are sinful but it doesn't say the attraction itself is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Xenowang to a point. That would appear to be a lust issue, but being attracted to the opposite gender doesn't mean you will fornicate. So being attracted to the same gender doesn't mean you will act on those feelings.

Because I some times feel like hurting someone does that make me a murderer?

[jeffrobodean]

Matthew 5:27-32
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

This is the Bible that I read ZenoWang. If you so choose to disagree with me, that is fine. We can each translate the Bible to fit our world, but don't insult me by trying to tell me that I read a different Bible than THE Bible.

For the Word of God is living and active, and I choose life.

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

[ QUOTE ]
Matthew 5:27-32
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[a] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

This is the Bible that I read ZenoWang. If you so choose to disagree with me, that is fine. We can each translate the Bible to fit our world, but don't insult me by trying to tell me that I read a different Bible than THE Bible.

For the Word of God is living and active, and I choose life.

[/ QUOTE ]


Where in that verse does it address homosexuality?

[jlands]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the Bible that I read ZenoWang. If you so choose to disagree with me, that is fine. We can each translate the Bible to fit our world, but don't insult me by trying to tell me that I read a different Bible than THE Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That passage speaks nothing of homosexuality. It talks of lust.

[jeffrobodean]

I am not judging anyone. I am stating what I believe the Bible says about Homosexuality. I have many homosexual friends. I do not judge them. According to the Bible, I know that they will not be with me in Heaven unless they repent. That is not my judgement, that is God's.

[jeffrobodean]

Do you really think God condones a man from looking after another man with a lustful heart, but he frowns upon a man looking after another woman with a lustful heart?

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think God condones a man from looking after another man with a lustful heart, but he frowns upon a man looking after another woman with a lustful heart?

[/ QUOTE ]


Of course not, but I think many (not you) would suggest that the former is more sinful than the latter.

[jeffrobodean]

I understand Jbagger - Sin is sin is sin is sin. I don't care for closed-minded people either, and I know there are Christians out there like that same with any other faith. I don't like how people label me as a right-side conservative Bible-thumping Jesus Freak because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle. I try to live my life as the Bible teaches me, and it does teach me that sinning in your heart is as bad as sinning in the flesh. I have looked at other women in such a way before, so I am no saint myself. Even though I never acted upon it, I still sinned.

Romans 1:24-32:

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

"These scriptures clearly state that these vile affections of men lusting for other men (gay men) or women lusting for other women (lesbians) are not the natural affections God created men and women to have for one another. Let me say here that God loves all homosexuals! However, He hates the deeds of homosexuality because they are sinful. God did not create any human being as a homosexual. They are not born that way, just as murderers are not born that way. "

[jlands]

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Bible, I know that they will not be with me in Heaven unless they repent.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is not what you said originally. You stated.
[ QUOTE ]
Homosexuals need to repent and STOP being a homosexual.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is that if you sin after you ask for salvation and repent then you are still going to hell. In that case unless you ask for salvation on your death-bed you will go to hell. Most pastors will say they sin most every day.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course not, but I think many (not you) would suggest that the former is more sinful than the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]
So we get to decide what sin is greater? Sin is sin. Disobediance to God. Lusting after the same sex or the opposite sex is still just as sinful.

To say that one is greater then the other is placing yourself in the judgement seat. If you don't believe me then you don't have to, but explain it to God when you see him.

[jlands]

[ QUOTE ]
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll agree that you can get what you are saying out of that verse. I don't read it quite like that, but I can see what you are saying.

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Of course not, but I think many (not you) would suggest that the former is more sinful than the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]
So we get to decide what sin is greater? Sin is sin. Disobediance to God. Lusting after the same sex or the opposite sex is still just as sinful.

To say that one is greater then the other is placing yourself in the judgement seat. If you don't believe me then you don't have to, but explain it to God when you see him.

[/ QUOTE ]


Uh, I presenting the argument you were getting at. This is not my view.

[XenoWang]

[ QUOTE ]
However, He hates the deeds of homosexuality because they are sinful. God did not create any human being as a homosexual.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the statement that homosexual acts are sinful- I've been saying this all along. You still have yet to demonstrate where the Bible claims that the actual psychological condition of being attracted to the same gender is sinful. There is a distinction between attraction and lust. Just because I find a girl walking down the street attractive does not mean I am lusting after her. If I have a crush on a girl in class and would really like to get with her, that doesn't mean I'm lusting either. But clearly, this demonstrates sexual attraction. Does the Bible condemn this if it is homosexual? If so, please show me where it does because I contend that the Bible simply condemns homosexual sexual activity. This brings me back to my other contention that chaste homosexuals have just as much the probability of entering heaven if they believe in Christ as any other Christian.

[ QUOTE ]
They are not born that way, just as murderers are not born that way. "

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I see these kinds of statements thrown around ALL the time, but where is the evidence? For one, I think it's a logical fallacy to compare homosexuals to MURDERERS. Moreover, the nature vs. nurture debate has been going on for a plenty long time, and each side has quite a bit of evidence to support their claims. Most people agree that it is a synthesis of the two hypotheses these days. In any case, that's not even the point! We are in agreement that homosexual sexual activity is sinful. What we disagree on right now, it seems, is whether the actual STATE of being homosexual is inherently sinful. Again, I request that you demonstrate where in the Bible it states this because you have yet to do this.

A couple of other things:
1. It was never my intent to insult you or question the validity of the Word of God. When I suggested you were reading a different Bible than I am, I wasn't referring to different translations or whatnot. It was simply a sarcastic comment suggesting that you are reading something in the Bible that simply isn't there.

2. The issue of degrees of sin. While it isn't really THAT pertinent to the current discussion, I'd have to disagree that every sin is the same as any other, but then again, I'm a Roman Catholic, so what do I know ? /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jeffrobodean]

God made Adam and Eve. He did not make Adam and John. He made a natural attraction between a man and a woman. An attraction between a man and a man is not natural according to God. You can't be in love with another man and not be committing the sin of homosexuality. I already showed the verse of committing sin in your heart is still committing sin. You all chose to read it literally that God only meant that the sin of lust in your heart is a sin, but any other sin in your heart is okay. Does anyone here actually believe that if I really had a burning desire in my heart to take my neighbor out in the backyard and murder him that God is okay with it just because I didn't physically do it?
So, all sin is only a sin if you actually act on it. If you follow that logic, is it okay to advocate hate crimes then, against homosexuals as long as YOU don't actually commit the atrocities?
I once had an Episcopalian -sp? minister as a neighbor. His wife had been cheating on him for years, and in fact, the daughter he thought was his for 9 years he found out, in fact, was not. He tried to hang himself in his basement in his moment of grief. Luckily, his son found him and got help. He survived. As a Catholic, do you feel he would have gone to Hell if he had died? Isn't that an unpardonable sin? Or is it not because he did not go through with it?

[XenoWang]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a distinction between attraction and lust. Just because I find a girl walking down the street attractive does not mean I am lusting after her. If I have a crush on a girl in class and would really like to get with her, that doesn't mean I'm lusting either. But clearly, this demonstrates sexual attraction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read what I wrote carefully. I never said lusting was ok! I never even said that the desire to sin in your heart is ok. I was making the distinction that attraction (which we cannot control very well if at all) is distinct from lust. Did you catch that part?

[kokokolo]

a few things Jlands

[ QUOTE ]
Many have said homosexuals will all burn in hell. And don't get me wrong. I am not gay and I am not for being gay, but why can't homosexuals come to church?

[/ QUOTE ]

They are more than welcome at my church ! Along with the lieing, stealing, greedy, lustful, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
God said homosexuality is wrong right? But didn't He also say lieing, stealing, greed, envy etc.. were all wrong? So those of us that commit those on a daily basis should all burn in hell too. So really the only person who should be in a church or worship is Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes bro, everyone is guilty and deserves to go to hell, But Jesus died to save us.

[ QUOTE ]
Find me one passage in the Bible where Jesus said "Oh, you committed this sin. You can't ask for salvation."

[/ QUOTE ]

there isnt one, And you know this... MAN

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus taught in the street or on a hill side or on a boat or on the shore, but I don't know of him ever teaching in a temple. Yet most pastors, preachers, etc.. always say "we need more money, you have to tithe, we can't spread the word without your support." How much money does it cost to talk to someone?

The church I am currently trying to disassociate myself from wants to be a "Top 15 Baptist" church in the country. Why? For God or for the prestige? Joel Olsteen writes all these books claiming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Funny I don't remember Jesus making any boasts or claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

again bro, I think the problem is the specific church you are going to, I would advise you to go to different churches until you find one that gets it.

have you read the bible?
Another thing is a LOT of churches do things wrong or dont get part of the message right. This in no way puts in question the teaching of Jesus, see all the conversations he had with the Pharisee's, he went so far as to call the religious leaders of that day hypocrites.



addressing others now

[ QUOTE ]
2. The issue of degrees of sin. While it isn't really THAT pertinent to the current discussion, I'd have to disagree that every sin is the same as any other, but then again, I'm a Roman Catholic, so what do I know ?

[/ QUOTE ]

any sin will keep us out of heaven without accepting Jesus, so it doesnt really make much sense to think of some as better or worse, I do think however that some sins vary in how much that sin convicts the concionce. Some sins we can commit easily and not think about it, while others would make us tremble if we even tried to do them, and if we did we may be more inclined to beg god for forgiveness.
eg, blasphemy, stealing something very small vs murder, rape

also Jeffrobodean, what are you arguing about? He's just saying that feeling a physical attraction to the same sex isnt a sin, any more than when a man is atracted to a women, and avoids lusting.

Im honestly not sure if there is any disagreement here besides both sides misunderstanding the others statements.

If a man feels a physical attraction to other men, but doesnt act on it, and does not lust, and also wishes he did not feel that attraction, is he still sinning?

[jlands]

[ QUOTE ]
there isnt one, And you know this... MAN

[/ QUOTE ] Then why do so many people act like there is? Why do so many people act like they can decide what sins are greater? Why do so many people feel they can judge you me or anyone for there sins?

Funny you say to try a different church. Then most people tell me how all churchs are like this.

I honestly don't know why I even read the Sanctuary. I think I will stop.

[kokokolo]

I dont know why people act like there are sins, that they cant ask forgiveness for, God ever forgives murderers man.

Why do so many people act like they can decide what sins are greater? I dont know, as far as homosexuality, I think that has something to do with people not having empathy for ins they do not understand.
Why do so many people feel they can judge you me or anyone for there sins? again I dont know, I mean we can know if someone is sinning. But I dont think that is judging. And the way gays and the like are treated sometimes by "christians" is wrong and unbiblical.

and dude, odd you say that about churches. didnt you see where I said "They are more than welcome at my church ! Along with the lieing, stealing, greedy, lustful, etc." All sinners are welcomed and loved there. I went to about 6 different churches before I found one I liked and agreed with.

[ QUOTE ]

Then most people tell me how all churchs are like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
The church I attaend, is not like that, not like that at all...

[jeffrobodean]

I am just going to end my part in this discussion. We all have opinions, and I enjoy a healthy debate, but this, however, isn't going anywhere. AND, BTW jlands -
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't know why I even read the Sanctuary. I think I will stop. [\quote]
Why would you start a post giving your opinion on such a highly inflamed and debatable topic, and yet, get upset to hear someone else's views? Did you think everyone here will share your same opinion? Just because you and I don't share the same viewpoints does not mean that I respect you any less or expect you to change.
Isn't America great? We have the freedom to hold and express our opinions, especially if they aren't mainstream, and obviously, mine are not in this forum, but I am not going to change. I don't care how many people will go along with mainstream society and tell me that I am wrong, I will disagree. [b]My opinion[\b] is that feeling an attraction to the opposite sex is what God intended. That is the nature he intended for man to follow. Having a physical or sexual attraction to another man (if you are a man) or woman (if you are a woman) is not what God intended, and it is against Nature; not natural in God's eyes, so therefore, it is a sin, and sexual act or not, it is akin to homosexuality. There is no debate about lust. I never said anything about lust, other than post scripture, and everyone seemed to take it literally.

[War5475]

Ok first off here is some clarification. You quote mattew 7:1 as if we are never to judge. If you read the paragraph you will see Jesus is saying we will be mesured by the same stick we measure others by so if we are trying to pull out a speck of wood in our fellow christians eye yet we have a 2x4 sticking out of ours. That there is something wrong with this picture.

He also goes on to say Not to toss your pearls before swine. That if someone who is not a christian is sinning its not going to help alot for us to tell them what is wrong with there life when they cant even begine to understand what sin is.

In 7:24 Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" also in Matthew 7: 15-20. 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Here it is obvious we are to judge those inside the church. But not those outside.

Homosexuals are allowed in church as long as they are not practicing homosexuals the same way i am allowed to go to church eventhough Im a lier adulter and a siner. Because i am trying to get away from these things. A church is for sinners like a hospitel is for sick people.

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif War Out!

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly what really makes me doubt my faith are some of the things that Christianity has turned into.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Jlands, great to see you here! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Addressing the original statement, if you have put your faith in "church" you are deceived my friend.

Only put faith in Christ. If you look to man as your foundation of faith you're on sand, and will be ashamed.

Church is just an extension of your faith, it should not be your faith. If it is prepare to be disappointed. Man fails. Christ never fails and is the perfect example we should hope in, not man.

For example, when Jimmy Swagert was discovered in sin, many people fell away from the faith. Why? Because their faith was in Jimmy, not Jesus. If Jesus was the source of their faith, they would not have let a sinner shake them.

[ QUOTE ]
Many have said homosexuals will all burn in hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

All sinners will go to hell, that is biblical.

The bible is clear that living in fornication will deny one entrance to heaven.

<font color="green"> 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
</font>

[ QUOTE ]
Don't quote me five hundred lines from the Bible, because it doesn't change the fact. WE are judging people. WE have no right to do so, but WE are deciding who can go to church.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have the wrong interpretation from the passage you have selected, a lot of people do, I did at one time too. I address this in the bible study link, I think it will help you understand what Christ was saying.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sho...;o=&amp;fpart=1 (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=804883&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1)

Remember that to interpurt correctly, there are rules, one of which (perhaps the most vital) is the rule of context (we address these rules here: HERE (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=598551&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=Word%20of%20God&amp;Match=Enti re%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=3months&amp;Main =598551&amp;Search=true#Post598551) ).

When one examines the context of the Sermon on the Mount they quickly note this rule is violated by isolating this verse in this manner. Read the above link for more details.

Here Christ says to judge:

<font color="green"> Luke 7:43
"Tell me, why do you not judge for yourselves what is just?" (NAB)
</font>

<font color="red">John 7
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." </font>

<font color="brown"> 1Cor.2:15-16
"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (KJV) </font>

<font color="red"> 2 Tim. 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
</font>

Think about it logically. If we are not to judge with rigtheous judgement how can we discern what is of God and what is of the world?

We can tell by sifting all truth through the Word of God!

Paul commaned Timothy to weigh EVERYTHING against the word, when it was popular (in season) and when it wasn't (out of season).

<font color="red"> 2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. </font>

This is biblical. Denying righteous judgement is not only foolhardy, but anti-Christ.

One of the most misused verses in the Bible is, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matt. 7:1). Every Scripture verse should be read in its context, if we are to properly understand the true meaning.

In vs.2-5 of this same chapter it is evident that v.1 is referring to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. The lesson is plain, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin.

Those who cling to "Judge not, that ye be not judged," to condemn those who expose error should read the entire chapter. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing..." (v.15). How can we know false prophets unless we judge them by the Word of God? If we know the false prophets, how can we fail to warn the sheep of these "ravening wolves?" All through the Bible we find proof that they should be identified and exposed.

CHrist judged:

<font color="red"> He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
</font>

Paul judged:

<font color="green">For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world" (II Tim. 4:10). </font>

Paul told Timothy to <font color="blue"> "war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaesus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim. 1:18-20) </font>

<font color="brown"> But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (II Tim. 2:15-18). </font>

<font color="blue"> "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words" (II Tim. 4:14-15). </font>

John judged:

<font color="purple">I wrote unto the church; but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, recieveth us not" (III John 9 </font>

Jude exposed "the error of Balaam" (Jude 11). John exposed "the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication" (Rev. 2:14).

It is biblical to judge (see the bible study links). It is not biblical to be a hypocrite, which is what Christ was addressing...the false teachings of the Pharisees and religous leaders of His time. This is clear from the context of identifying false teachers which He did in the same sermon.

Paul also addressed this same attitude towards those who believed they were "holier than thou"

<font color="red"> God's Righteous Judgment
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
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Someone who is willingly denying obedience to God by living in sin, can not be a Christian.

Can they go to church? Of course, and they should!

However, "joining the church" means to come under authority of the pastor. You can not come under God's appointed earthly authority if you will not come under God's control.

There is a lot of teaching on this in the bible and we can go there if you want more on this topic.

Living in open rebellion to God is to deny His authority, this is grounds for removal from the church as a member active in ministry. You can not minister Christ, if you are in fellowship with Belial.

<font color="red"> 14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." </font>

This is out of the mouth of Christ.

<font color="red">15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
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This would be the same case if two heterosexuals were desiring to join the church, yet were living together before marriage.

Or a drunk or drug pusher wanting to join the church.

The idea to joining a church is also to be involved in ministry. Those living in sin can not minister Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't quote me five hundred lines from the Bible, because it doesn't change the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

All we are going to get by adhering to this standard is man's opinion, which as you stated is fallible. To get God's opinion, the only one that matters, WE NEED to turn to God's Word.

Why? One to gain righteous judgement.

If it backs up a claim, there is nothing to fear. If not, then yes people do not want to be quoted the bible as it brings truth.

Homosexuality is another version of fornication.

Arugeing whether just being gay or acting on being gay is a sin isn't really the issue. The issue is we've all sinned, no matter what your specific area of struggle lies. If you are not born again, you can not enter heaven.

If you are born again, you will be under God's authority, and are worthy to minister Christ. If you are under God's authority homosexuality, fornication, etc will not control you as one of the fruits of the spirit is self control.

However, most of this arguement of whether gays can join churches, get married in churches, or be leaders in the church is based on the standing that they want to live a homosexual lifestyle AND minister Christ.

That is not biblical.

If someone is a homosexual, and is born again, and is struggling to break free from fornication in mind and body that is an entirely different scenario than a homosexual wanting to stay active in that sin and minister in the church.

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus taught in the street or on a hill side or on a boat or on the shore, but I don't know of him ever teaching in a temple

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus addressed the crowds numerous times in the temple, as well as predicted its destruction.

[ QUOTE ]
Sin is sin. Sin is disobediance of God. There are no levels of sin. The only sin you can not be forgiven for is turning away from Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is certainly degrees of punishment based on one's accumulated sin life.

<font color="red"> 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. </font>

<font color="brown"> 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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I can give a lot more on this topic if you want, just let me know. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The church I am currently trying to disassociate myself from wants to be a "Top 15 Baptist" church in the country. Why? For God or for the prestige? Joel Olsteen writes all these books claiming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Funny I don't remember Jesus making any boasts or claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be careful judging others ministries, unless you have proof they are false or deceivers. This is dangerous ground.

<font color="red">Even as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so do these also oppose the truth; men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith </font>

<font color="brown">1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"

20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."

22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"

23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"

35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

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<font color="brown"> 1 Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cu****e wife, for he had married a Cu****e. 2 "Has the LORD spoken only through Moses?" they asked. "Hasn't he also spoken through us?" And the LORD heard this. 3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)

4 At once the LORD said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, "Come out to the Tent of Meeting, all three of you." So the three of them came out. 5 Then the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the Tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When both of them stepped forward, 6 he said, "Listen to my words:
"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions,
I speak to him in dreams.

7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.

8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?"

9 The anger of the LORD burned against them, and he left them.

10 When the cloud lifted from above the Tent, there stood Miriam—leprous, [a] like snow.
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[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if God looks down on this earth and cries over the perversion that some people have turned christianity into.

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I do not think He cries, He knows who is false. Deception among believers has been occuring since Christ's earthly ministry and will continue until Christ comes. Study the parable of the wheat and tares, fishes and the net, etc.

I think God is disappointed by the same thing Christ was disappointed by, a lack of faith. Many times we read Christ marveled at unbelief.

[Travail]

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Does this mean that a christian who struggles with porn and dies without having been free from it goes to hell?

[War5475]

Well if he or she were a christian then i suppose you mean saved. Once the blood of Jesus atones for us and we keep him in our hearts we may fall once in a while we may even develope an addiction but if we ask for forgivness and are truly sorry we will not go to hell. However If we did all that was said above but gave our selves fully to our addictions then we would be condemend because we would not be giveing our selves to him.

Christians fall to sin every day. Only Christ was sinless. Sin seperates us from God. But all we have to do to bridge that gap is ask for forgivness and if we truly mean it and are trying then he will grant us Grace.

Hope that helps.