Interesting Thought [Archive]

Alcatraz

02-17-2006, 05:11 AM

Hear is something to think about.
While there are many implied quotes and statements from jesus and the apostles, there is no DIRECT words from the authors of the gospels that 100% directly certainly most positively show they believe jesus is god. Its really interesting. You would think that since the gospels were written for others to believe, there would be straighforward statements
Any thoughts?

A mystery of faith I say!

god bless all

psaturn

02-17-2006, 07:13 AM

Alcatraz,

Think about this: who the audience was when Jesus was preaching and teaching.

The audience was all JEWS....

Jews who had been trained to stone anyone who was a false prophet.

I think it is far better to show by your action who you are than to say "I am God, so you better believe me and follow me!!!"

It is like that crazy guy who came to our office one time looking for me. He told my receptionist that he was a servant to the king.

She replied..."yeah?"

"Oh yeah, the servant to the King of Kings! Do you know who is the King of Kings?"

She said "No"

He said "Jesus!!"

and he added, he was his number one servant !!!

She was thinking he was nuts and crazy to begin with, number one servant my foot! She was making comment that if he was a true servant, he WOULD NOT BRAG ABOUT IT....

Alcatraz

02-17-2006, 05:15 PM

Please re-read my post.

The keyword is Authors.

I have the exact same thoughts you do. Our god is a humble god, he would never brag. Jesus said he was with a simple "I Am". He used those words because when moses asked god his name, god answered "I Am" in the OT.

My post was to consider that the Authors of the gospels did not write any direct statements. There is no way around it, and there doesnt need to be an answer. Statements such as " I am writing to tell you about the man who is god " or " Jesus helped many people realize he was god " arent there. Again, I'm not reporting this in a negative way, I just think its interesting.

God bless all

wb4revival

02-17-2006, 07:01 PM

The gospel authors did not always speak from their own perspective (John did several times) but rather they just report the factual events. In my mind this ADDS to the witness, rather than detract from it.

However, they did record events such as when Jesus asked His disciples "whom do men say that I the son of man am?". The disciples replied that some say John the Baptist, some say Elias or Jeremias or another prophet. Then Jesus said, "But whom do ye say that I am?" Peter answered, "Thou are the Christ (messiah) the Son of the Living God". Then Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you Peter, but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN". The witness of God through the miracles, signs and wonders and Jesus' own witness is by far better than anything man can add.

I guess my point is that if Matthew, Mark Luke and John did not believe in who He was they would not have written their gospels. And it is the most important question for all of us... who do WE say that Jesus is?

Like you said... interesting thought.

Grace and Peace

shtanga

02-18-2006, 10:11 AM

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. NIV

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
NIV

That sounds like John said it to me.

Adam Knowlden

02-18-2006, 06:36 PM

This is one of the biggest myths propogated. The authors of the bible declared it many, many times.

First it is an extreme fallacy to seperate the gospels from the rest of the bible, as though if it is not stated in the gospels it somehow demonstrates that we should doubt the authenticity of Christ's deity. There are many doctrines of Christianity that are found nowhere in the gospels but are found in Paul's letters and other parts of the bible. The error is seperating the gospels from the rest of the bible.

John 10:35 '... and the scriptures cannot be broken."

John 14:26: the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Note: Christ here promises his disciples that they would be taught by the Holy Spirit. These teachings eventually became written down in the New Testament.

Methodology in Bible study is therefore concerned with "the proper path to be taken in order to arrive at Scriptural truth."

This clearly implies that improper paths can be taken.
Of course, proper methodology is essential to many fields of endeavor. A heart surgeon does not perform open heart surgery without following proper, objective methodology. (Would you trust a heart surgeon to operate on you who told you that he intended to discard objective methodology, instead opting for a subjective approach - cutting you where he feels like cutting you?)
Improper methodology in interpreting Scripture is nothing new.

Even in New Testament times, the apostle Peter warned that there are teachings in the inspired writings of Paul "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [distort], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16, insert added).

This verse tells us that mishandling the Word of God can be very dangerous. Indeed, mishandling the Word of God is a "path" to destruction.

Contrary to the practices of some false teachers in Corinth, the apostle Paul assured his readers that he faithfully handled the Word of God (2 Corinthians 4:2). Paul admonished young Timothy to follow his example: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, italics added).

The Bible as a body of literature exists because human beings need to know certain spiritual truths to which they cannot attain by themselves.

Thus these truths must come to them from without - that is, via objective, special revelation from God (Deuteronomy 29:29).

And this revelation can only be understood if one interprets the words of Scripture according to God's original design for language - that is, according to the ordinary, plain, literal sense of each word.

Eight Rules of Interpretation
"...the Eight Rules of Interpretation used by legal experts for more than 2500 years.

1.Rule of Definition.
Define the term or words being considered and then adhere to the defined meanings.

2.Rule of Usage.
Don't add meaning to established words and terms. What was the common usage in the cultural and time period when the passage was written?

3.Rule of Context.
Avoid using words out of context. Context must define terms and how words are used.

4.Rule of Historical background.
Don't separate interpretation and historical investigation.

5.Rule of Logic.
Be certain that words as interpreted agree with the overall premise.

6.Rule of Precedent.
Use the known and commonly accepted meanings of words, not obscure meanings for which their is no precedent.

7.Rule of Unity.
Even though many documents may be used there must be a general unity among them.

8.Rule of Inference.
Base conclusions on what is already known and proven or can be reasonably implied from all known facts.

"It will be worth your time to acquaint yourself with these rules and commit them to memory or jot them in the flyleaf of your Bible. Using them will keep you free from cultism and false teachings. All the early Church Fathers used them. Irenaeus used them when he wrote Against Heresies, which dealt with Gnosticism and other untruths. Every law court religiously follows them and honest theologians dare not violate them. Much false teaching is the result of violating one or more of these universal rules of interpretation."
- From "Who Said Women Can't Teach?" by Charles Bromley.

We can't have a "sure word" about the meaning of Scripture (or anything else) unless we have a sure method to interpret the words. The following eight rules are the center of all grammatical interpretation. They have been accepted and used by scholars from Socrates to the present. While my hope is that they will be used to "rightly divide the word of truth" of the Holy Bible, they are equally applicable to legal, historical, and other such language.

Since the Bible teaches that God is not the author of confusion [1 Cor. 14:33], how can the many disagreements today between Christians and the proliferation of the cults be explained since all, or nearly all, claim to use the Bible as the basis of their doctrines? Nearly all false doctrines taught today by Christians and cultists alike can be traced to the distortion of the meaning of Biblical words. These eight rules are prayerfully offered in the hope that they may help many come to the truth of what God says in His Word.

Exegesis, or critical interpretation, and hermeneutics, or the science of interpretive principles, of the Bible have been used by both Jews and Christians throughout their histories for various purposes. The most common purpose has been that of discovering the truths and values of the Old and New Testaments by means of various techniques and principles.

Our goal must be exegesis (drawing the meaning out of the text) and not eisogesis (superimposing a meaning onto the text).

By using eisogesis instead of exegesis, a Marxist interpreter could, for example, so skew the meaning of the U.S. Constitution that it came out reading like a socialistic document.

Cultists have done the same type of thing with Holy Scripture. There are entire sites dedicated to this attempting to show the bible as "full of contradictions" when really all they have done is show their expertise in eisogesis.

Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, and every verse is part of a paragraph, and every paragraph is part of a book, and every book is part of the whole of Scripture.

No verse of Scripture can be divorced from the verses around it. Interpreting a verse apart from its context is like trying to analyze a Rembrandt painting by looking at only a single square inch of the painting, or like trying to analyze Handel's "Messiah" by listening to a few short notes.

The context is absolutely critical to properly interpreting Bible verses.

The immediate context of a verse is the paragraph (or paragraphs) of the biblical book in question. The immediate context should always be consulted in interpreting Bible verses.

The broader context is the whole of Scripture.
The entire Holy Scripture is the context and guide for understanding the particular passages of Scripture.

We must keep in mind that the interpretation of a specific passage must not contradict the total teaching of Scripture on a point.

Individual verses do not exist as isolated fragments, but as parts of a whole.

The exposition of these verses, therefore, must involve exhibiting them in right relation both to the whole and to each other. Scripture interprets Scripture.

As J. I. Packer puts it, "if we would understand the parts, our wisest course is to get to know the whole."

They so skew the meaning of the biblical text that it comes out saying something entirely different than what was intended by the author.

Jesus consistently interpreted the Old Testament quite literally, including

the Creation account of Adam and Eve (Matthew 13:35; 25:34; Mark 10:6),

Noah's Ark and the flood (Matthew 24:38-39; Luke 17:26-27),

Jonah and the great fish (Matthew 12:39-41),

Sodom and Gomorrah (Matthew 10:15), and

The account of Lot and his wife (Luke 17:28-29).

In his book The Savior and the Scriptures, theologian Robert P. Lightner notes - following an exhaustive study - that Jesus' interpretation of Scripture "was always in accord with the grammatical and historical meaning. He understood and appreciated the meaning intended by the writers according to the laws of grammar and rhetoric."

Jesus affirmed the Bible's

divine inspiration (Matthew 22:43),

its indestructibility (Matthew 5:17-18),

its infallibility (John 10:35),

its final authority (Matthew 4:4,7,10),

its historicity (Matthew 12:40; 24:37),

its factual inerrancy (Matthew 22:29-32), and

its spiritual clarity (Luke 24:25).
Moreover, He emphasized the importance of each word of Scripture (Luke 16:17). Indeed, He sometimes based His argumentation on a single expression of the biblical text (Matthew 22:32,43-45; John 10:34).

Jesus said His words lead to eternal life (John 6:63). But for us to receive eternal life through His words, they must be taken as He intended them to be taken.

A cultic reinterpretation of Scripture that yields another Jesus and another gospel (2 Corinthians 11:3-4; Galatians 1:6-9) will yield only eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15).

 Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." 

Also what you must understand is the Jews already knew that declaring anyone the Messiah directly implied He was the Son of God.

 John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


This statement occurs again:

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

That was a huge statement. For John to even write that indicated exactly what He believed!

So basically this arguement is arguing against what would have been obvious to any Jew. They had no need to directly state it at all outside of calling him Christ, Messiah, or Lord, but the fact that they do in hundreds of places in the apostles books and letters only affirms it.

 John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." 

The deity of Christ is demonstrated most oft in John's gospel. Each gospel demonstrates Christ in different lights. For example Matthew relates Christ to fulfilled prophecy.

By claiming Jesus was the Messiah they were stating He was God.

Its stating the obvious, so this arguement really doesn't make any sense from a Jewish vantage point.

 17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ 

Or Messiah. "The Christ" (Greek) and "the Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "the Anointed One."

As an example, its like us saying "I'm a bodybuilder", then I write a book about how I work out. Then someone comes along and states, "Yes he implies he works out because he has routines and yes he claims he's a bodybuilder, but he never directly states he works out, so there is no proof he works out".

Here Jesus is worshipped:

Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only." 

 Matt. 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him." 

The apostle John wrote Revelation and there are literally hundreds of direct statements in Revelation that Jesus is God.

Same with Peter's letters and John's letters.

Alcatraz

02-20-2006, 05:18 AM

Old School - "First it is an extreme fallacy to seperate the gospels from the rest of the bible, as though if it is not stated in the gospels it somehow demonstrates that we should doubt the authenticity of Christ's deity. There are many doctrines of Christianity that are found nowhere in the gospels but are found in Paul's letters and other parts of the bible. The error is seperating the gospels from the rest of the bible."

You need to remember that the gospels were 'good news' for other people. When they written, THE BIBLE WAS NOT THOUGHT OF!! You cant think that other pieces were considered when the gospels were written. "Oh yea, Ill make a straightforward statment in revelations when i get to it".There were letters before and after, but not on every corner bookstand.

The point of my post is simple. There are no straightforward statements in the gospels that are as straight as saying Jesus said "insert here".There are many implied statements and quotes, but none are as straight as "He is god".

And of course, the gospels were intended for others to hear the good news. Im not taking anything away from the letters, Im simply saying there was an intention of all 4 gospels, and none, 0 out of 4, contained a straight forward statement that jesus was god.

THIS PROVES NOTHING. Its just an interesting observation.

god bless

Alcatraz

02-20-2006, 05:25 AM

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Jesus said in John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I am."

Thats all you can find, and quite frankly, thats all you need /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

02-20-2006, 06:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When they written, THE BIBLE WAS NOT THOUGHT OF!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious!

The Torah and the prophets have been around since Moses my friend!

WHat do you think Matthew was quoting from in His gospel.

Furthermore, everything stated in Revelation can be found in the Old Testament, Revelation just wraps it all together.

The law and prophets state emphatically that God will come in human form as the Son of God. Every Jew knew what the Messiah was, God in Human form!

Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).

 - Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 

 Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)


- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 

There are over 300 prophecies in the OT about His first coming, many state He is God in human form.

Psalms 2:7 (NIV) I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son ; today I have become your Father. 

 Proverbs 30:4 (NIV) Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


 Isaiah 11:2 (NIV) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- 

Psalms 45:7-8 (NIV) You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy. 8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; from palaces adorned with ivory the music of the strings makes you glad. 

 Isaiah 9:5-7 (NIV) Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. 

 Jeremiah 23:5-6 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. 

Psalms 2:6 (NIV) "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." 

 Psalms 110:4 (NIV) The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

 2 Samuel 7:12-16 (NIV) When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.'" 

 Malachi 3:1 (NIV) "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 

 Isaiah 7:14 (NIV) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel (God with us).


 Psalms 72:10-11 (NIV) The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. 11 All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him. 

 Isaiah 53:12 (NIV) Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 



Genesis 22:4 (NIV) On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.


 Hosea 6:2 (NIV) After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.

 Psalm 68:18-19 (NIV) When you ascended on high, you led captives in your train; you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious-- that you, O LORD God, might dwell there. 19 Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. Selah 



Psalms 16:11 (NIV) You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.


 Zechariah 6:13 (NIV) It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' 

Why do you think the Jews wanted to kill Jesus when He read from Isaiah?

 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.



[ QUOTE ]
There are no straightforward statements in the gospels that are as straight as saying Jesus said "insert here".There are many implied statements and quotes, but none are as straight as "He is god".

[/ QUOTE ]

You did not follow me at all.

For a Jew it was plainly understood the Messiah was God in the flesh.

The prophets predicted it for centuries!

45Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

46And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.

47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.



How did Nathanael know to say that? It was preached for thousands of years in the law and prophets! I can give hundreds of verses here.

You are missing the point that when the authors of the gospels referred to him as Christ, Lord, or Messiah, even in the geneologies, they were DIRECTLY stating He was God.

For example, Matthew declares it in the first sentence!

 1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


By that one statement he declared Jesus is God and fulfilled the propheices about Christ's geneology. This is just the first verse!

I can give many examples over and over again, it doesn't take long to find them.

Gen. 16:7-13; 18:2-23. especially v. 17; 32. 28 with Hos. 12:3-5; Ex. 3:2-14.

The Messiah is expressly declared to be the Son of God (Psa. 2:2-9), and God (Psa. 45:6, 7 with Heb. 1:8,9; Psa. 110. with Mt. 22:44; Acts 2:34 and Heb. 1:13; Psa. 110.4 with Heb. 5:6; 6. 20:7. 17-21; and Zech. 6:13).

His virgin birth was foretold as the means through which God could be "Immanuel," God with us (Isa. 7:13, 14 with Mt. 1:22, 23).

The Messiah is expressly invested with the divine names (Isa. 9:6, 7).

In a prophecy of His death He is called Jehovah's "fellow" (Zech. 13:7 with Mt. 26:31).

His eternal being is declared (Mic. 5:2 with Mt. 2:6; John 7:42).

This really isn't even an arguement bro. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Alcatraz

02-20-2006, 05:12 PM

Oldschool, I appreciate the feedback.
Your right its not an arguement, cause your overlooking my simple dry black and white thought. How can you rebuttle my statement of the bible not being thought of ? I didnt say the Torah, I didnt say the Koran. I said the BIBLE. ARE you honestly telling me that that the NEW TESTAMENT was in consideration by the authors of the four gospels 300 years before the church put it together?

Your kinda heading off the road. Your motive seems to prove to me that the direct statements I have mentioned 3 times now are in fact in the gospels, and they are not, using lines from places other than the gospels, and the ones in the gospels are A=B and A=C ideas. So B is C? This thread was not about the other books or letters, or OT. It was about the gospels, and I posted ealier the only line in the gospels that is as straightforward as somone asking jesus " are you god" and jesus saying " IAM ". And he pretty much did that.

I think this thread has hit its end, but god bless you guys for sharing with me.

God bless you all,
Im done /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

02-20-2006, 11:05 PM

Hi Alcatraz,

I think this is vital to discuss because many students of the bible have a wrong impression on how to handle the Word of truth.

[ QUOTE ]
How can you rebuttle my statement of the bible not being thought of ? I didnt say the Torah, I didnt say the Koran. I said the BIBLE. ARE you honestly telling me that that the NEW TESTAMENT was in consideration by the authors of the four gospels 300 years before the church put it together?

[/ QUOTE ]

You stated that the authors of the gospel never directly stated Jesus was God. I am stating that they did by directly referencing old testament prophecies in thier writings!

Labeling the apostles statements that Jesus directly fulfilled prophecies exclusive to the Messiah as indirect, is an example of bad biblical interpretation.

Here is the definition of direct:

[ QUOTE ]
direct - Straightforward and candid; frank: a direct response

[/ QUOTE ]

The authors of the gospels had access to the Torah and the prophets and quote from them numerous times, directly stating who Jesus was, God in the flesh.

You are aruging, "there is no DIRECT words from the authors of the gospels that 100% directly certainly most positively show they believe jesus is god"

I'm stating they did, hundreds of times by quoting the prophets and giving Jesus titles exclusive to His role of God in the flesh, they could not have mande it any more straightforward.

Let's narrow this down immensely and only utilize just the book of Matthew to determine if the author directly stated Jesus was God.

Let's look at John the Baptist. John was the messanger who would announce the coming of the Kingdom of God and prepare the way of the Messiah.

How was his role explained to the audience in Matthew?

Matthew 3:

1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Through prophetic context!

This is the exact same method Matthew used to proclaim Jesus was God! See all the refernces I gave in the earlier post.

This is exactly how Christ addressed the disciples of John when John doubted Jesus.

Matthew 11:

 2Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

4Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

5The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.



John asked, "Tell me directly if you are the Messiah"

Jesus replied by quoting prophetic context and that these prophecies were fulfilled!

On another note, again Matthew calls Him Christ in verse 2, directly stating who He was via His title, God in the flesh.

Matthew 8:
16When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.



This was not even an arguement in the sense that any Jew reading Matthew's account, would have known exactly what Matthew meant when he quoted these prophecies and by calling Him "Christ".

Referencing Jesus in these manners was very direct and straightforward if you accept the basic rules of biblical interpreation!

The Bible should be interpreted in the context of its literary style, culture, and history. You are ignoring these basic rules of interpretation my friend.

I'm defending against this because athiests try to ascertain that the apostles never stated Jesus was God in the gospels, and that is flat out wrong! Matthew 1:1 is directly stating it.

Also because students of the bible often try to interpret the bible in only one aspect of the rules of interpretation and this has lead to many doctrinal errors and myths.

Methodology in Bible study is therefore concerned with "the proper path to be taken in order to arrive at Scriptural truth."

This clearly implies that improper paths can be taken.
Of course, proper methodology is essential to many fields of endeavor. A heart surgeon does not perform open heart surgery without following proper, objective methodology. (Would you trust a heart surgeon to operate on you who told you that he intended to discard objective methodology, instead opting for a subjective approach - cutting you where he feels like cutting you?)

Improper methodology in interpreting Scripture is nothing new.

Even in New Testament times, the apostle Peter warned that there are teachings in the inspired writings of Paul "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [distort], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16, insert added).

This verse tells us that mishandling the Word of God can be very dangerous. Indeed, mishandling the Word of God is a "path" to destruction.

Contrary to the practices of some false teachers in Corinth, the apostle Paul assured his readers that he faithfully handled the Word of God (2 Corinthians 4:2). Paul admonished young Timothy to follow his example: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, italics added).

The Bible as a body of literature exists because human beings need to know certain spiritual truths to which they cannot attain by themselves.

Thus these truths must come to them from without - that is, via objective, special revelation from God (Deuteronomy 29:29).

And this revelation can only be understood if one interprets the words of Scripture according to God's original design for language - that is, according to the ordinary, plain, literal sense of each word.

Eight Rules of Interpretation
"...the Eight Rules of Interpretation used by legal experts for more than 2500 years.

1.Rule of Definition.
Define the term or words being considered and then adhere to the defined meanings.

2.Rule of Usage.
Don't add meaning to established words and terms. What was the common usage in the cultural and time period when the passage was written?

3.Rule of Context.
Avoid using words out of context. Context must define terms and how words are used.

4.Rule of Historical background.
Don't separate interpretation and historical investigation.

5.Rule of Logic.
Be certain that words as interpreted agree with the overall premise.

6.Rule of Precedent.
Use the known and commonly accepted meanings of words, not obscure meanings for which their is no precedent.

7.Rule of Unity.
Even though many documents may be used there must be a general unity among them.

8.Rule of Inference.
Base conclusions on what is already known and proven or can be reasonably implied from all known facts.

It will be worth your time to acquaint yourself with these rules and commit them to memory or jot them in the flyleaf of your Bible. Using them will keep you free from cultism and false teachings. All the early Church Fathers used them. Irenaeus used them when he wrote Against Heresies, which dealt with Gnosticism and other untruths. Every law court religiously follows them and honest theologians dare not violate them. Much false teaching is the result of violating one or more of these universal rules of interpretation

 "And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." [2 Peter 1:19,20 NAS]


Trying to seperate and isolate all 8 rules of interpretation from one another is not only dangerous, it leads to invalid conclusions and mishandling of the Word.

We can't have a "sure word" about the meaning of Scripture (or anything else) unless we have a sure method to interpret the words. The following eight rules are the center of all grammatical interpretation. They have been accepted and used by scholars from Socrates to the present. While my hope is that they will be used to "rightly divide the word of truth" of the Holy Bible, they are equally applicable to legal, historical, and other such language.

Exegesis, or critical interpretation, and hermeneutics, or the science of interpretive principles, of the Bible have been used by both Jews and Christians throughout their histories for various purposes. The most common purpose has been that of discovering the truths and values of the Old and New Testaments by means of various techniques and principles.

Our goal must be exegesis (drawing the meaning out of the text) and not eisogesis (superimposing a meaning onto the text).

By using eisogesis instead of exegesis, a Marxist interpreter could, for example, so skew the meaning of the U.S. Constitution that it came out reading like a socialistic document.

Cultists have done the same type of thing with Holy Scripture. There are entire sites dedicated to this attempting to show the bible as "full of contradictions" when really all they have done is show their expertise in eisogesis.

Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, and every verse is part of a paragraph, and every paragraph is part of a book, and every book is part of the whole of Scripture.

No verse of Scripture can be divorced from the verses around it. Interpreting a verse apart from its context is like trying to analyze a Rembrandt painting by looking at only a single square inch of the painting, or like trying to analyze Handel's "Messiah" by listening to a few short notes.

The context is absolutely critical to properly interpreting Bible verses.

The immediate context of a verse is the paragraph (or paragraphs) of the biblical book in question. The immediate context should always be consulted in interpreting Bible verses.

The broader context is the whole of Scripture.
The entire Holy Scripture is the context and guide for understanding the particular passages of Scripture.

We must keep in mind that the interpretation of a specific passage must not contradict the total teaching of Scripture on a point.

When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is a significant because Jesus is God in flesh.

It says, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with him being God, the word, in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.

When it came time to name the Lord, an angel the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt say the Torah, I didnt say the Koran. I said the BIBLE.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Torah and the prophets are the bible. What does the Koran have to do with any thing?

The Old Testament is divided into three parts:

The Law (Torah), consisting of the Pentateuch, or five books of Moses.

The Prophets, consisting of...

the former, namely, Joshua, Judges, the Books of Samuel, and the Books of Kings
the latter, namely, the greater prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets.

The Hagiographa, or holy writings, including the rest of the books. These were ranked in three divisions:

The Psalms, Proverbs, and Job, distinguished by the Hebrew name, a word formed of the initial letters of these books, emeth, meaning truth.

Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, and Esther, called the five rolls, as being written for the synagogue use on five separate rolls.

Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1 and 2 Chronicles.

[ QUOTE ]
ARE you honestly telling me that that the NEW TESTAMENT was in consideration by the authors of the four gospels 300 years before the church put it together?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm telling you the Torah and the prophets were not only considered but directly quoted from.

[ QUOTE ]
Your kinda heading off the road.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are making a arguement that is illogical.

[ QUOTE ]
using lines from places other than the gospels

[/ QUOTE ]

The gospel of Matthew makes direct quotations from the prophets who emphatically state who Jesus was, the Son of God, God in the flesh.

Your stating that the apostles did not directly state that Jesus is God in the gospels, I'm telling you that by them directly quoting the prophets they were literally screaming Jesus was God loud and clear to their audience.

This is not an arguement in the fact that they are directly stating Jesus is God hundreds of times! To state they never stated Jesus was God is to literally ignore dozens of prophetic reference and contextual titles given to Jesus by the authors.

[ QUOTE ]
using lines from places other than the gospels

[/ QUOTE ]

Half the gospel of Matthew is quotations from the prophets!

You are aruging, "they didn't state Jesus was God".

I'm stating they did, hundreds of times by quoting the prophets, they could not have mande it any more direct.

What Jesus looked like, that may be indirect. We know from prophecy, physically there was nothing that great about Him, so we can indirectly state Jesus was probably average height and average looks, meaning He probably had dark hair/skin and eyes. Another prophecy indicates His beard was torn off during his interegation.

So an example of an indirect interpretation might me that Jesus was around 5'5" had dark hair and dark skin and wore a beard. That is an example of an indirect statement.

Labeling the apostles statements that Jesus directly fulfilled prophecies exclusive to the Messiah as indirect, is an example of bad biblical interpretation.

I did this for the edification of the boards, nothing personal bro /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Alcatraz

02-21-2006, 01:35 AM

Your the man OS!!!!

But the bible does have contradictions.

I did not write this..

"the two lineages of Christ in Matthew and Luke are different. Second, Matthew has the holy family fleeing to Egypt after the birth of Christ and staying there for years, while Luke has Jesus being dedicated in Jeruselem at the Temple placing the holy family back in Israel eight days following Christ's birth."

But does this change a christians faith? Nope.

In the court of law, you win. I used the word directly. I should have said "Interesting that the gospels do not contain a line as clear as "Jesus is God".

If I gave a muslim the four gospels and asked them to find me a sentence that says jesus is god, I dont think they would find one that would fully convince them. You are right, you need to know the old testament, the letters and books of the Nt, etc.

My view was that as the four gospels were written with intent of converting the future of the world, how could they think to themselves "people like oldschool will be able to put these words with others to get the full idea" when they couldnt be 100% those other books would exist.

The original gospels dont even exist today. Just really really old copies.

Many things have been burned, destroyed, etc. Even other gospels found arent considered valid.

Its like an insurance statement. why didnt Mark think "incase this falls into unintended hands" I want the people to be sure they know I believe jesus is god.

But I read your posts, and I understand what your saying.

god bless

Adam Knowlden

02-21-2006, 03:25 AM

Hi Alcatraz,

Glad it helped. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
But the bible does have contradictions.

[/ QUOTE ]

 Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. 

Let's examine the article. Next time though please give a source for these articles, it helps better refute them and adds validity to their claim.
/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
the two lineages of Christ in Matthew and Luke are different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Luke's Genealogy starts at Adam and goes to David. Matthew's Genealogy starts at Abraham and goes to David. When the genealogies arrive at David, they split with David's sons: Nathan (Mary's side) and Solomon (Joseph's side).

There is no discrepancy because one genealogy is for Mary and the other is for Joseph.

Next,

[ QUOTE ]
Second, Matthew has the holy family fleeing to Egypt after the birth of Christ and staying there for years, while Luke has Jesus being dedicated in Jeruselem at the Temple placing the holy family back in Israel eight days following Christ's birth."

[/ QUOTE ]

The events of Matthew 2 took place at least 41 days after the birth of Christ. Luke 2:22-24 tell us of Mary bringing Jesus to the temple and this could not have taken place until she was ritually purified, a process that required at least 41 days to complete.

These are not problems at all my friend. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
But does this change a christians faith? Nope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not because they're not contradictions.

You have the wrong application of faith as it applies to the bible.

Faith is always built on knowledge! Deficient faith is traced back to its unmistakable cause; deficient knowledge!

Jesus repeatedly asks, "Have you not read …?" and tells the Sadducees that they are in error because they 'do not know the Scriptures or the power of God' (Matt. 22:29).

Greek word for ‘faith’ is pistis which is related to the verb pisteuo meaning ‘believe’.

Biblical faith never has the connotation of ‘believing six impossible things before breakfast’, but ‘is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.’ (Heb. 11:1).

Many Christians have a misconception of biblical faith.

15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.



This word "answer" is derived from the Greek words meaning "out of logic/reason".

The word for "reason" above is logos, meaning evidence that provides rational justification for one’s belief.

[ QUOTE ]
If I gave a muslim the four gospels and asked them to find me a sentence that says jesus is god, I dont think they would find one that would fully convince them.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now the arguement is switched, I'm beginning to see how this works! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyone whom Christ is not calling would not find anything worthwhile in the bible, as the bible clearly states the Holy Spirit is the one who reveals the truth about Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of witness.

 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


The minds of unbelievers are blinded.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 

Examine what that says...the devil has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that the the message of salvation, and the person of Christ, would not be revealed to them.

So therefore, the Holy Spirit is the one who would reveal the truth about Christ to any unbeliever, no matter their faith.

Regardless of any verse!

I could show any verse in the bible to any unbeliever, Muslim or not, and unless the Holy Spirit removes the blinders it won't mean anything.

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


[ QUOTE ]
My view was that as the four gospels were written with intent of converting the future of the world, how could they think to themselves "people like oldschool will be able to put these words with others to get the full idea" when they couldnt be 100% those other books would exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hypotheticals are misleading and I won't argue strawman cases.

[ QUOTE ]
The original gospels dont even exist today. Just really really old copies.Many things have been burned, destroyed, etc. Even other gospels found arent considered valid.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible as we have it today is the exact copy of the the original gospels my friend, that's not even an arguement, no one with any scholarly sanity debates this fact.

[ QUOTE ]
Its like an insurance statement. why didnt Mark think "incase this falls into unintended hands" I want the people to be sure they know I believe jesus is god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're argueing from silence again.

Alcatraz

02-21-2006, 03:32 AM

From where ever it is you live, I can see you smiling from here /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

02-21-2006, 04:31 AM

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I live in Ohio.

I just want everyone to know, they can trust the Word of God 100%.

There are so many lies being permiated these days about the bible, Jesus, and the nature of God.

The bible says in the later times people will heed the doctrines of demons and take on teachings of seducing spirits.

We have a "sure word of prophecy" and need to learn to "Rightly handle the Word of truth".

Satan's deceptions are exposed by the bible.

In these times, everyone is looking for something to trust in, and they turn to everything but the Word of God.

The Word of God is true from the beginning and can be taken to the bank!

Trust God's word, not some silly website trying to dethrone God.

"There are many devices in a man's heart; Nevertheless the council of the Lord will stand"