so who is the pope anyway?

[kokokolo]

So the pope is just the king/president of a christian based country or what?

[XenoWang]

....whaa......

Why don't you go and look this stuff up man? Wikipedia and Google are your friends. www.catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com) might be of some use as well /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kokokolo]

wikipedia rocks
[ QUOTE ]
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every creature to be united to the Roman Pontiff" (Pope Boniface VIII). This teaching is often summarized by the phrase "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the Church exists no salvation),

[/ QUOTE ]
wow I did not know that about catholics ...

[XenoWang]

I don't have time to respond right now, but I will talk about this doctrine very soon.

[Hooah101]

i very much disagree with that pope's statement.

[kokokolo]

you catholic bro?

[XenoWang]

It's not quite uncommon for non-Catholics to disagree with papal statements you know.

[Hooah101]

no im a non denominational christian. Just believe the bible.

[ QUOTE ]
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that "it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every creature to be united to the Roman Pontiff"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that statement caught my attention too...

What exactly does it mean by "united?"

[jeffrobodean]

I don't know what to make of that statement either, but one things for sure -
the last Pope that just passed - I'm pretty sure he didn't rise from the dead, so I'm not following him and he's not the key to my salvation. Of course, I could be reading it wrong.

[XenoWang]

*rolls eyes*
You are reading it wrong. I'll post in this thread when I have more time.

[psaturn]

Yes, growing up Catholic, I heard that teaching all my young life....


"extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

and I found this Catholic source that explains this ex cathedra declaration by Pope Eugene IV back in 1441.



This assertion implies that all non-Catholic religions are false, that only the Catholic Church contains the entire deposit of Truth given to the Apostles by Christ, and that this entire deposit -- not a majority of it or a part of it -- is necessary for salvation. Although these truths are denied and scorned by today's world, they are fully in accord with common sense and the constant teaching of the Church. Christ gave to the Apostles the entire deposit of faith ("The Holy Ghost will teach you all things" John 14:26), told them to pass it on to the world ("Going therefore, teach ye all nations" Matt. 28:19), and threatened ****ation for those who did not believe them ("He who believes not will be condemned" Mark 16:16). He would not have condemned to hell the disbelievers if either it was not important to believe all that the Apostles taught or if He was not certain that the Apostles were teaching the truth ("He that heareth you heareth Me" Luke 10:16). The Apostles themselves knew that all who believed in any way different from their infallible teaching would perish -- "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema" (Gal. 1:8).

Christ did not intend for only men who lived in the Apostles' lifetime to know and live the Truth. He ensured that the deposit of faith would be passed on throughout the generations so that all might have an opportunity to believe all that He entrusted to the Apostles -- "I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28:20). His truth, the actual truth, never changes, and it is as important to hold it today as it was in the first century. It is only by holding to what is true that we can love and serve God and be saved, for false principles lead to evil actions. Since there is only one truth and it is unchanging and indispensable, it is impossible for more than one of the systems of belief or religions that exist in the world to lead to salvation. Any other position negates the words of Our Lord.

It is certainly through the Catholic Church that Our Lord has guided men to keep the deposit entrusted to the Apostles throughout the centuries. It is the Catholic Church that defeated the many heresies against the nature and person of Christ, long before Protestant denominations appeared, such as Arianism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Nestorianism, Pelagianism, Apollonarism, etc.. -- all of these had to be opposed vigorously with the true doctrine before they were extirpated, and some still exist today. It is the Catholic Church that holds to the same doctrines that the Fathers, who had the words of the Apostles "resounding in their ears", taught and defended and which all but the schismatics reject today -- auricular confession, veneration of images, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the existence of seven sacraments, the Church as the final arbiter of all doctrinal disputes, and many more. It is only the Catholic Church that has not changed and it is only She that has existed since the time of Christ.

The Church has certainly always been aware that she has been given by Christ the entire deposit of revelation to guard until the last day and thus asserts the infallibility of her Supreme Pastor, appointed by Christ to be His Vicar on earth, and also that salvation can be found only within her maternal bosom. Whenever the Pope, 1.) using his full apostolic authority, 2.) defines, 3.) as supreme teacher of all Christians, 4.) a matter of faith or morals 5.) that must be held by the universal Church, he is infallible and is expressing a doctrine that is part of the deposit of the faith entrusted to the Apostles and which has been believed always and everywhere by Catholics.

The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

The other two infallible declarations are as follows: There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved. Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes thourghout the centuries.

Further, it is dogmatically set forth that no authority in the Church, no matter how highly placed, may lawfully attempt to change the clear meaning of this (or any) infallible dogma. Vatican I taught: "The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding." This same Vatican I defined solemnly that not even a Pope may teach a new doctrine.

Naturally, the truth that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church has been supported by all the saints from every age. Following are several examples:

St. Irenaeus (130-202), Bishop and Martyr: "The Church is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them . . . . We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come . . . . Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons."

St. Augustine (354-430), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

St. Fulgentius (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604): "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in Her and asserts that all who are outside of Her will not be saved."

St. Francis of Assisi (1182-1226): "All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also, all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!"

St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "Outside the Church there is no salvation...therefore in the symbol (Apostles Creed) we join together the Church with the remission of sins: 'I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins"...For this reason the Church is compared to the Ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church."

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church: "All the misfortunes of unbelievers spring from too great an attachment to the things of life. This sickness of heart weakens and darkens the understanding, and leads to eternal ruin. If they would try to heal their hearts by purging them of their vices, they would soon receive light, which would show them the necessity of joining the Catholic Church, where alone is salvation. We should constantly thank the Lord for having granted us the gift of the true Faith, by associating us with the children of the Holy Catholic Church ... How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true Faith! Earth is full of them and they are all lost!"

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958): Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless fromula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science." (The dates for the two Popes are the years they reigned as Sovereign Pontiffs.)

The greatest act of charity that one can perform is to bring others to the truth. The Catholic Faith is a gift from God, one that can be shared, one that gives life and salvation. Mother Church, being solicitous for the welfare of all mankind, has always sought to bring all into the One Fold (John 10:16), and to unite all in the profession of the one Faith given to us by Christ through the Apostles. If She were to hide the truth, or be content to leave others in their error, She would be cruel and indifferent.

This is a great lesson for Catholics, for many do not esteem the priceless value of their Faith as they should. It must be given to others at every opportunity; it must be passed on to those who languish without the true sacraments, who struggle to interpret the Bible without an infallible teaching authority, or who lead often immoral lives without the guidance of the "pillar and ground of truth" (I Tim. 5"15).

Let all Catholics then, be both like the martyrs of old, who died rather than relinquish one doctrine of their Catholic Faith, and like the great missionaries, who endured extreme privations and sufferings in order to bring salvation to even one soul. It is only a firm belief in the importance of the Catholic Faith for salvation that motivated these heroic actions and it is only such a faith that can "overcome the world" today (I John 5:4).

www.olrl.org/doctrine/ (http://www.olrl.org/doctrine/)

Copies of this article available from:
Our Lady of the Rosary Library
11721 Hidden Creek Road
Prospect, KY 40059

[jeffrobodean]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

[jlands]

I'll stop. This thread is not the place to ask these questions.

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great lesson for Catholics, for many do not esteem the priceless value of their Faith as they should. It must be given to others at every opportunity; it must be passed on to those who languish without the true sacraments, who struggle to interpret the Bible without an infallible teaching authority , or who lead often immoral lives without the guidance of the "pillar and ground of truth" (I Tim. 5"15).

[/ QUOTE ]
so the pope IS considered infallible ? just like the mormon president ...

[XenoWang]

....

You're equating the Pope with the President of the Mormon Church? Please!

Half the posts I read from you make me think you are feigning ignorance to make Catholics look bad. "Wow, I never knew that about Catholics....." That's enough. Like I said, I will get into these issues when I have some time. But for now, I will say this: Catholics don't believe that the Pope is infallible in anything he says. There is only a special condition under which he may proclaim infallibility known as ex cathedra and it has only been invoked twice in the history of the Church.

[Adam Knowlden]

No need to get hostile fellas. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kokolo you may want to rephrase things differently sometimes, as you questions do come off as smartelic sometimes. I know you don't mean it that way, just consider that your audience may not agree with you.

[kokokolo]

hey I was just pasting part of what Psaturn's post
heres a couple more that struck me.

[ QUOTE ]
St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

[/ QUOTE ]

Now as I understand it from you, my sources im posting are a little off, Or Miscontrued. But all the quotes that I put dont pass what I'll call the intuition test. Where I can just look at a statement and intuitively say to myself, "that cant be right" or "god doesnt judge based on what church they attended" but your saying the quotes arent right. And I await your reply.

[ QUOTE ]
You're equating the Pope with the President of the Mormon Church? Please!

[/ QUOTE ] sorry man. see to you the mormons are probably a big christian cult and they are twisted and not christian etc. To me I was raised in the mormon church and kinda thought the presidents words were maybe the word of god. I was at a mormon church a few months ago, I even had a "priesthood blessing".

I geuss the inferrence is that the pope is the leader of a cult or something... But cmon, all I know about catholics is that they dont believe in birth control and the services are traditional like.

[ QUOTE ]
Kokolo you may want to rephrase things differently sometimes, as you questions do come off as smartelic sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ] /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif I know, I need to have like different fonts to visualize the sounds of my voice

[jlands]

All I know is that most catholics I know, believe that they can do what ever they want as long as they go to confession. It was even a common practice for people to pay Monks to pray for their sins so they wouldn't have to.

My Mom was catholic and it is one of the things that made her turn away from God. I'm trying to reach her, but it's hard.

What about the church protecting priests and bishops who commit adultery, child molestation or things like that?

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
All I know is that most catholics I know, believe that they can do what ever they want as long as they go to confession.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I wouldnt neccesarily say that is just a catholic thing though, Most people who consider themselves christian that ive met, think they can do whatever they want as long as they believe jesus died for them. . . But if you really had faith wouldnt you want to not sin... This I think is a big problem with younger christians. But maybe thats another topic entirely

[Damien Voorhees]

Actually, perhaps a better translation is, "There is no salvation without Christ." That is the Catholic understanding.

A priest was excommuncated as spreading heresy by the Pope when he said that only Catholics will enter heaven. As far as a Pope's infallability, actually, the term really includes the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church, which simply means the Church. And the Pope does not make up anything new, and RARELY declares infallabity. This happens to formally declare something that is already a part of Faith as a means to sometimes dispell errors.

For example, the Arian heresy of the 4th century denied the divinity of Christ. In 325, Bishops were gathered at Nicea and the Nicene Creed was compiled, which many Christians of many traditions still use.

I hope I wrote this so it makes sense!

[Damien Voorhees]

A little more info:

Catholics believe that Christ only instituted ONE Church, His Church to which ALL Christians belong. We believe that Catholics, Mehtodists, Presbeterians, Anglicans, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Othodox, etc. are all united to Christ in One Living Body. We value all Christians and respect them. Catholics also look to all Christians for advice and inspiration and collabration. I am the director of Adult Faith Formation [I have a meeting for it in 11 minutes!] and respect ALL Christians!

[l0stsheep]

[ QUOTE ]
All I know is that most catholics I know, believe that they can do what ever they want as long as they go to confession. It was even a common practice for people to pay Monks to pray for their sins so they wouldn't have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking?

I used to attend a Catholic Church and met so many wonderful people, I can't even tell you. The main priest was the coolest man I've ever been around, and the nicest guy. You must know some weird Catholics because the ones I have been around are not ALL(granted not everyone's the same) the type of Christians that party on saturday and go to church on sunday. The ones I have been around have all tried to say away from sin, just like evangelical Christians. And don't use confession as like a card to sin. I, personally, like the idea that they GO to confession. I don't agree that you need a priest to be forgiven, but the fact that they go and speak aloud with someone about there sins, is a great idea to me. I KNOW that helps so many people in overcoming their sins.

[10forty2]

I'm learning about Catholocism here as well folks so bear with me.

One of my observations of the Catholic faith is the intermediary between the Christian and God; hence confession to a priest who can pray on your behalf. One of the major symbolisms at the exact moment of Christ's death on the cross was the earthquake and the tearing in half of the curtain in the temple that separted the Holiest of Holys from the general public. You know, the place that only a priest could go to pray on your behalf. That meant that as of that moment, no more did anyone have to pray on your behalf. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, we could come to God for whatever we needed through Jesus as our intermediary. Jesus was the last and final sacrifice that would ever be needed for ALL people to be saved through Him. Christ's church is not the Roman Catholic church or the Southern Baptist church, or Presbeterian, or Jewish or whatever other manmade religion or faith based organization we can think of. His Church is made up of all those who believe and accept Him as their Lord and Savior. He (Jesus) is the vine that we are all connected to and the Body that we are all a part of, not the Pope or the church or the preachers of the world.

My other observation about the Catholic faith that really bothers me is the belief in any spiritual power other than God or Jesus, IE., Mary or the Saints. To pray to any of these for assistance or intermediary to God, in my humble opinion, is simply sacrilegious and is also saying that you do not believe that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for us. I truly believe that when He said,

John 14:6
"I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me"

He meant exactly what He said. No one or no thing can get you there except Jesus.

[Damien Voorhees]

10Forty2,

I can understand why you might have your misconceptions. Catholics, like all Christians, can and do ask God directly for forgiveness. Catholics DO NOT have to go to confession, except for very serious sins, such as murder, etc. However, for someone who is not of the Catholic Faith who does not believe in confession, God would certainly forgive their contrite heart.

In Genesis 2:7, "the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being." This giving of life is a creation event, only repeated when Jesus gave the Apostles the same mission as the Father gave Him.

Notice that Jesus breathed on Peter. In John 20:21-23, Jesus said to Peter, "21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be with to you. As the Father has sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." The tradition of confession began 2000 years ago at that very moment. However, the Priest doesn't forgive sins in confessions: Jesus does.

Oftentimes when we ask God for forgiveness we still don't feel forgiven. This is human nature. If we keep asking God to forgive us for the same sin, over and over, I would imagine that God would say, “Enough already! I already forgave you the first time you asked!” Having a priest to talk to has many positive results and closure and a tangible sense of being forgiven.

First, God knows our human nature and realizes that talking to someone can help us to work through our faults. Also, sometimes people are much harder on themselves than God would be and a priest can counsel a person that Jesus loves and forgives them! I can tell you from personal experience that confession is a born again experience. Obviously, this experience isn’t restricted to confession, but it definitely is a result of confession. Finally, when sometimes a person contemplates sinning, confession can act as a deterrent because going to confession always takes courage… it’s a leap of faith!

Finally, Mary and the Saints have no spiritual powers… at least no more than you and me. If I asked you to pray for me or my intention, you would say, “Sure!” When you pray for me, you are interceding in my behalf before God. That’s all that Saints and Mary are asked to do. Period. And since saints are in the very presence of Almighty God, they are special prayer partners. Many living people are living courageous, saintly lives. When they die, we all would continue to look up to them as role models, such as Martin Luther King. Even on earth, some people are blessed with the gift of miraculous healing of others. Saints on earth and saints in heaven are not so distinctly different, except on earth, our bodies are not yet glorified. I hope this is helpful! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[XenoWang]

Very nice break down Damien /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[given_to_fly]

Hey guys, great discussion going on. I have something maybe you guys could shed light on.

I'm currently in a deep debate with my best friend who is Catholic (I am evangelical) as to the doctrine of salvation. He holds that the Catholic view and what is supposed to be God's "view" is that we are not saved by Christ alone, but here comes the twist (I'm not bringing up the usual faith/works argument). He also contends that anyone who accidently or inadvertently does the will of God yet denies the Son is justified and is heavenbound. So if their actions end up in line with what a Christian is supoosed to do, they are saved. Sort of like the non-Christian "saint" thing, a "good person". As a philosopher I see problems with this in line with Scripture. Now, I'm not going to profess to be God and know their true judgment, but before I can accept such a claim that one is justified by works alone, which I've never heard put forth legitimately in scholarship, I need Scriptural reference.

I had many Scriptural backups for why I believe that salvation is through Christ alone, but he's doing some homework to try and find Scripture pertaining to this. I was hoping that some of the Catholics here could help him/me out in this debate with insight. Do those of you who are Catholic also contend this? And if so, why? Thanks guys.

[XenoWang]

Well, before we move on in this line of discussion, you need to clarify whether your friend believes salvation can be attained in this manner given the person is aware of the Gospel. Knowledge of or ignorance of the Gospel in this case is very important.

[given_to_fly]

Yeah he thinks that an all merciful God won't allow those who appear to line up with a Christian life go to hell. Let's say two lives are lived quite similarly in outward action, yet one believes in Christ, the other does not, they just simply do "Christian" things as per morality and such. On his view, it does not matter if that non-believer has heard the Gospel, even if they have, they don't face judgment because God is all merciful and loving.

This seems to ignore the attribute of God as all-just however as well as lines in Scripture as far as I can tell. So to sum up and answer your question, yes, according to him, salvation can be attained by those who know the Gospel but choose not to believe in Christ yet still line up with what He calls God's will. I object to that usage because I think God's will involves accepting Christ, but granting him that usage for our purposes here, this is what he believes.

[10forty2]

It is helpful and I really apprecaite your response, although I respectfully disagree, and always will, with the basic theologies of these tenets. I do agree that most people find it more difficult to confess their sins to a priest than to God and that confession to the priest can be a counsel to them; however, I believe that this very practice has established in many minds that the priest is the one that provides the forgiveness.

In regards to asking the saints and Mary to pray on your behalf, I do not accept that they CAN in fact pray for me or ask God for a specal favor. Although they were held in highest regards by mankind for the deeds that they did while on earth, they were merely men and women as was Mary. I mean no disrespect here, but Mary was simply a human being who God chose to be the earthly vessel by which Jesus would be born... nothing more. My asking you to pray for me is asking someone else, another living person of faith to re-assert my request for God's intercession. It is also your saying, as a living person, that you care about me and that you would wish for God to interceed in my life. I do not believe that the saints or any other spirit can or should be prayed to or asked to get God to help out. That, to me, is no different than praying to or asking my deceased grandmother, whom I'm also sure is in heaven in her rightful place with God, to ask Him for something.

Again, no disrespect meant towards any Catholic and I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to respond.

[tarheelsykes]

as a protestant, I have always had questions about the catholic church. Damien, I believe you did a great job of explaining the ideas of confession and praying to the saints. Everyone should have a mentor they can go to and telling of their struggle with sins, someone to help hold them accountable to walking with Jesus. In my church I have my accountability partner, and my small group, in your church you have confession with a priest. I know that some people may think that the priest is granting forgiveness, but that is misconception it appears. so thank you for clearing that up.

[jeffrobodean]

Along the same lines as confessional with a Priest, (and I could be ignorant here) -
Does or does not the Priest instruct the confessor to "Go out and do x Hail Mary's or x Our Fathers or whatever?" Is that just in movies or the like? Because if not, it seems as though it is in direct contention with what you guys have been saying. To me, it sounds like you ARE asking a Priest for forgiveness and that he is the one who is handing down the "punishment" (or rather, is that "payment" to him to go and ask God for forgiveness on your behalf?).
And also - I mentioned this in an earlier post about the anullments. Adam and Eve could not hide their sins from God, no matter how hard they tried. If divorce is considered a sin, where does Catholicism get its authority that if you pay the Diocese that they can annul your marriage so that it never existed in the eyes of God? OR, rather, is it money paid to the Catholic Church to turn their eyes the other way and ignore it? I would like some enlightenment in this area if anyone can help. I appreciate it.

[Damien Voorhees]

[ QUOTE ]
Along the same lines as confessional with a Priest, (and I could be ignorant here) -
Does or does not the Priest instruct the confessor to "Go out and do x Hail Mary's or x Our Fathers or whatever?" Is that just in movies or the like? Because if not, it seems as though it is in direct contention with what you guys have been saying. To me, it sounds like you ARE asking a Priest for forgiveness and that he is the one who is handing down the "punishment" (or rather, is that "payment" to him to go and ask God for forgiveness on your behalf?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Gods forgives the sins. If the priest finds the person to be not repentant or not sincere, he would tell the person that he or she needs to be repentant and to let him or her know that God does not forgive the non-repentant. This is not arbitrary. If the priest has come to the wrong understanding, the person will certainly tell the priest of his or her sincerity. The bottom line is that only God knows a person’s heart. The priest is there to guide and support a person’s rebirth from sin.

If restitution needs to be made, the priest would suggest restitution, such as giving back what was stolen. This is not taking God's place or usurping God's role. Obviously, God can meter out whatever punishment He sees fit. Being asked to pray after confession is not a bad thing to ask anyone to do.

When I start my confession, I would start like this, "Bless me Father for I have sinned." I am addressing God the Father.


[ QUOTE ]
And also - I mentioned this in an earlier post about the annulments. Adam and Eve could not hide their sins from God, no matter how hard they tried. If divorce is considered a sin, where does Catholicism get its authority that if you pay the Diocese that they can annul your marriage so that it never existed in the eyes of God? OR, rather, is it money paid to the Catholic Church to turn their eyes the other way and ignore it? I would like some enlightenment in this area if anyone can help. I appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Divorce is NOT considered a sin for Catholics, though the Church would hope that all avenues for reconciliation are tried first. Remarriage after divorce is considered a sin.

An annulment is a process that helps to understand if a legitimate, covenantal marriage even existed. Suppose someone got married for the wrong reasons, such as duress, guilt or whimsy. A legal marriage would exist but a covenantal marriage possibly did not. The annulment process is the careful determination that in eyes of God, a marriage did not exist. Are there people who take advantage of this annulment process? Of course but God will be the final arbitrator of a person’s honesty. Humans do the best they can to follow the Lord’s will.

I hope this is helpful!

[jeffrobodean]

That does help me to understand it, thanks.
I just still do not agree with those viewpoints. When a person gets married, no matter the reason - that is a bond between you and God. I don't think anyone on Earth has the authority to speak for God in saying that "it didn't count in God's eyes."
I'm glad that you explained to me the beginning of the confessional. When you say "Forgive me Father, fo I have sinned" I have always assumed that you were stating the title of the Priest as "Father" and no as God the Father.

[Damien Voorhees]

Jeff,

I agree with you. No one has the authority to "speak for God in saying that "it didn't count in God's eyes.""

The way I would look at it is that annulment is a process of discernment and prayer to determine God's will. It can be difficult enough when we pray for discenment for God's will for ourselves, but to pray for discenment for others is much harder!


I am not thrilled with he idea of annulments either, but I do agree with the Church's basic reasoning. However, there is a strong effort in the Church to make annulments very rare because it does seem to be an easy way out of marriage.

Thanks!

[Damien Voorhees]

Maybe you all might be interested in hearing an address that Pope John Paul made in 1987, to Christians in Columbia, South Carolina.

“Praised be Jesus Christ!

Dear brothers and sisters,

I greet each one of you in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is indeed the "Lord of both the dead and the living" (Rom 14:9) who has brought us together in this holy assembly of Christian people, a joy-filled gathering of different ecclesial communions: Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, members of the United Church of Christ and of other Reformed churches, Disciples of Christ, members of the peace churches, Pentecostals, members of the Polish National Catholic Church and Catholics.

We stand side by side to confess Jesus Christ, "the one mediator between God and man" (1 Tm 2:5), for "at Jesus' name every knee must bend in the heavens, on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue proclaim to the glory of God the Father: Jesus Christ is Lord!" (Phil 2:10).

We have come here to pray, and in doing so we are following the example of all the saints from the beginning, especially the apostles, who in awaiting the Holy Spirit "devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary, the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren" (Acts 1 :14)”


I think it is important to hear a Pope's deep respect and love for all of our brother and sister Christians.



Also, with regard to salvation, here are my thoughts:

Salvation is through Christ alone. I think that is a point hopefully all Christians would agree with. Here is something to ponder...

In John 3:5, we read, "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

After 2000 years, believe it or not, the Catholic Church still has not formed a definitive conclusion on certain areas of Faith. It is not because much thought, prayer, and scholarship, haven’t been devoted to trying to understand. The reason is that the Church defers to Jesus' will when the Church does not know clearly Jesus' will, knowing that Jesus is merciful.

I believe that one such area of Faith is about people who live good, decent lives, who, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, follow God's will in their lives without even knowing it. These people would generally be those who have never even heard the name of Jesus.

I know that some people make a strong argument that people who are not ‘saved’ or who are not baptized will not enter heaven. Since people of good will having boundless knowledge are poised around every side of this aspect of Faith, I defer to Jesus’ mercy. Even so, I still believe that it is every Christians’ duty to evangelize constantly so that people will get to know, love and serve Jesus.

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
St. Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), the Angelic Doctor: There is no entering into salvation outside the Catholic Church, just as in the time of the Flood there was not salvation outside the Ark, which denotes the Church."

St. Louis Marie de Montfort (1673-1716): "There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes."

[/ QUOTE ]
so when they say catholic they dont mean the catholic church that I would picture?

cath·o·lic playAudio (kth-lk, kthlk) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: "The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found" (Scientific American).
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: "what was of catholic rather than national interest" (J.A. Froude).
3. Catholic
1. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
3. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
4. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.


they mean number 2 or 3, I geuss catholic also means universal, no wonder it confused me.

I like how discussions seem to be so much clearer after seeing the definition of a word, maybe thats just me though as im not too bright.

[jlands]

Some questions were answered, but some were not. So why should someone pay the chuch for a divorce? Shouldn't they just be able to pray for themselves? Why does all this need to be cleared with the church then?

Malachi 2:16
[ QUOTE ]

16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [a] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

[/ QUOTE ]


Matthew 19
[ QUOTE ]

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"

4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'

5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
The Little Children and Jesus
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

[/ QUOTE ]


None of that says any other reason then adultery. Pretty strong words from God "I hate divorce". I don't see how that is unclear.

[Damien Voorhees]

No one pays the Church for a divorce. The Church does not 'divorce' people, the State divorces people. People pay a fee to cover the costs of an annulment, not lawyers. The word annulment has as its root the word ‘null’ that is, never existed. There are cases when a couple may not have joined together in a covenantal marriage, for various reasons. This is probably rare.

Keep this in mind: to be Catholic does not mean you agree with the current practice of annulments. Most Christians agree on divorce and remarriage. The Catholic Church, does not believe that remarriage after a divorce is licit, that is, valid. The Church does believe in cases where a marriage in the eyes of God never existed. God gave Man the Scriptures to helps us to know His will. Therefore, the Church tries its best to determine if a marriage really existed in the eyes of God. I am not trying to convince you, only to let you see the belief of the Catholic Church.

[Adam Knowlden]

I also believe God has set up authority on earth, pastors, teachers, ministers, etc. Iron sharpens iron. There is nothing wrong with confessing your downfalls to brothers in Christ, or seeking council from the church.

The church is very powerful. If you look at the apostles they lead the early church and had a huge influence over doctrine.

I am not catholic, but I do want to make sure we all understand we are to come under a church's authority

[littleamazon]

What we must all remember, despite denomination, is that we are all at different levels in the development of our faiths. As our relationship with God grows stronger, with the grace given, obedience is possible in a greater extend, due to the flesh being submitted to a stronger spirit, strenghten by the relationship.

The Truth is one. The judgement, on the obedience of the Truth, on the Lord's Mercy and of the knowledge of the Truth.

So, if a person behaves on in innappropriate way, don't label their whole denomination. This person has made a choice regardless of their knowledge of truth and will be judged accordingly. Justice is always satisfied.

Thanks to Damien, OldSchool and Xeno for their posts!
Catholic.com is a great site to get answers from Catholic apologetics.

Amazon

[FutureStar25]

i think if your just a good person and follow simple guidelines to life you should be okay, everything else is just opinion to me

[given_to_fly]

[ QUOTE ]
i think if your just a good person and follow simple guidelines to life you should be okay, everything else is just opinion to me

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you define good and what the guidelines are as well as who decrees them?

[Axilleus]

the catholic church sees him as the inheritor of peter, (sey-phous) which means rock (basically, im not going to get into the ancient greek language) in ancient greek (my spelling may be off, im from alabama, LOL) they look to him as Gods main man on earth, however, if ur not catholic, you do not see things as they do, read the scripture for yourself, and then make an informed decision on what you believe.

[Damien Voorhees]

In Matthew 16:17-19, Jesus says,

"Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven, and I tell you, you are Peter (Petra) and on this Rock (Petros), I will build my Church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven."

There is an interesting discussion re. Petros [big rock] vs petra [little stone], or that Peter was one of many stones, that is, not important. Think about it... Petras is Greek and Jesus was a Jew who spoke Aramaic and in Aramaic Rock is 'Cephas', so Jesus would not have made the distinction between BiG ROCK and little stone. In other words, there is a parallel when Peter said, "You are the Christus" and Jesus said, "You are the Cephas".

Let’s consider “the keys to the kingdom”. These keys certainly sound ‘official.’ And they are: Jesus doesn’t mince words.

In all likelihood, Jesus was referring to the well-known Scripture of His era: Isaiah 22: 19-22 which was written hundreds of years AFTER King David. The keys are the symbol of authority and David’s was a kingdom with dynastic succession.

King Hezekiah dismissed his prime minister Shebna which left a vacancy. Eliakim was replacing Shebna and was being given the position of vicar, prime minister, administrator of the kingdom. The symbols of the dynastic succession for Eliakim were an office, robe, throne and keys. This position as prime minister was also dynastic, and in this reading if Isaiah, Eliakim is moved to fill a vacancy.

So the Catholic understanding of Maththew 16:17-19 is that Jesus was establishing His Kingdom and appointed Simon Peter as his vicar and this person in the office of vicar was dynastic, that is, replaceable. One of the titles for Popes is the vicar of Christ, another is the servant of the servants of God.

Last Point: Obviously, Peter was imperfect and denied Jesus three times, amongst other things. Jesus wasn’t appointing a perfect person, there are none. He was appointing one of us, a sinner. I hope this was helpful! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Alcatraz]

Main Entry: ide·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: "Id-E-'äl-&-jE, "id-
Variant: also ide·al·o·gy /-'äl-&-jE, -'al-/
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -gies
1 : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
2 : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture —ideo·log·i·cal also idea·log·i·cal /"Id-E-&-'läj-i-k&l/ adjective —ideo·log·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb


Your all probably wondering, what is this about.

Well first off, awesome that this discussion is taking place!!

After skimming through the posts, I saw alot of catholic topics I could of replied too, but I see majority have already been.

BUT I wanted to add this. WE ARE ALL HUMAN. The only one who is all knowing is GOD himself.

About catholicism, the church is 2,000 years old.Founded by the apostles who were taught by jesus, started before the bible, put the bible together.Thats it.

The catholic church runs off the claim that is has kept ORAL traditions (apostolic traditions) plus apostolic intepratation the same since christ.

IF YOU ARE NOT CATHOLIC, and have these cool claims that the church is all about money,or that god doesnt care if you confess to an ordained preist(or any other supposed made up rule),thats fine. It is your god given right.

This introduces the word I have at the beginning of the post ( I hope its the right word, lol)

Anyway, its used when people create their own ideas about something based on what they are most comfortable with.Whats the significance? Just that the catholic church has certain teachings,sacrements, which catholics truly believe is what jesus preached us to do.

I am a catholic, but I press it upon no one. Although I love discussing my churches history,beliefs.

Lets keep this discussion rolling
god bless all

[kokokolo]

Im not sure if you have the right word :>
maybe Idolatry
where you change your views about what god is like to fit your own views/opinions

"and have these cool claims that the church is all about money" heh I just think that every church Ive ever gone to MIGHT be about money at heart I just cant know what thier motives are for sure.

"or that god doesnt care if you confess to an ordained preist(or any other supposed made up rule)"

could you elaborate? are you saying you MUST confess to an ordained priest to be saved or just that, god set up that system to help people feel forgiven if they did something big ???

I actually attended a catholic mass this last sunday, It was pretty cool, The main thing that I think they should change is maybe put up a big board when you walk in that will explain to people what its about a little ( same for all churches ). And sometimes after the priest would say something everyone would seem to chant something like "Praise be to god" and I would wonder how they knew to say that?

[Alcatraz]

I was trying to set up some common beliefs of protestants, and then introduce the word you corrected me on 'idolatry'.

Its the catholic attitude that, hey we didnt pick this practice, this is what jesus taught through the apostles.

What gives me the right to say you can only be saved if you confess to an ordained priest? I dont have that right at all.

What I do know is that the bible shows jesus preached to his apostles, leaving his church to them. And then he went on to talk about those apostles forgiving people of their sins.

The part about being confirmed, the only real evidence in the bible I THINK is where somone mentions "laying their hands upon" where the idea would be created that you kinda have to be validated to preach gods word/forgive sins/baptize.

And since the catholic church is from the apostles, who were 'confirmed' by jesus, the line began where catholic priests were ordained by somone who was ordained etc etc by christ. That is why the catholic church does not recognize certain marriages, baptism, etc.

The comment about church and money.I am really bothered by this idea.
Priests dedicate majority of their time to the service. What are they going to do with money? Unlike protestant pastors who live like any other man who buys a car, pays bills, drives around in corvettes , etc
And People need to remember when they hear about these 'sex scandals' that the catholic church is a large system. if there is accusations, it spreads as news throughout all the churches , as opposed to lets say a small town protestant pastor who would just be removed and quickly replaceed with another freelancer.

Just the other day there was a small segment about a baptist pastor being removed from the church for sex scandals, yet the little image on the screen said SEX SCANDAL over the top half of priest outfit. Baptist pastors dont wear the b&w outfits.

god bless all

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"and have these cool claims that the church is all about money" heh I just think that every church Ive ever gone to MIGHT be about money at heart I just cant know what thier motives are for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may have said that wrong. I wasnt actually trying to say anything about catholics. Just that every church ive ever been to ( I have been to about 10 churches 1 of which being catholic ) I cant help but wonder where all thier money is going to go and if thier heart is at the right place.

I dont think that every church is wasting/misusing money or are corrupt. Just that maybe some are .

[Alcatraz]

I said I was bothered by the idea, not by your comment.


You have been to 10 churches?
May I ask which denomination you are?

[Alcatraz]

i dont have 150 posts yet, but if anyone wants to have a convo through message or email, its plush4life and plush4life@yahoo.com

[kokokolo]

non denom bro. I just attend an awesome powerful community church that is actually growing like crazy. Like none of the other church's I had been to. Its just about jesus and what is in the bible.

I also attend 2 new churches every sunday, that I hadnt been to before. I just figured out a lot of churches have saturday services now so I might be able to go to say 5 services every weekend, and its free... awesome

[Alcatraz]

so your a baptist /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kokokolo]

I dont follow ! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Damien Voorhees]

You mentioned Catholic confirmation. Confirmation is one of seven Sacraments in the Church, the others are Baptism, Eucharist, Reconcilliation [penance], Annointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matromony.

Here is an understanding of Sacraments by Scott Hahn:

The word sacrament comes "Sacramentum" or oath, which is part of what bound Jews and now Christians to God's covenant with Man.

"The sacraments are built upon this idea that God created the world and he saw that what he made was "very good," as it says in Genesis. Jesus Christ, the Creator and Redeemer of the world, in the sacraments, is using matter, physical reality, for our redemption. Sacraments are really simple. The sacraments are a divine mystery revealed by God.

The sacraments are the instruments that Christ uses to incorporate us into his own body, so much so that we become identified with Christ. St. Paul says, "It is no longer I but Christ who lives in me.

Sacraments are the divinely appointed means by which we struggle to overcome sin, and we receive divine aid and grace to help in time of need to grow up and mature as the sons and daughters of the most high God, our heavenly Father.

They are not magical and they are not mechanical. They are powerful because Christ is the one who has instituted them because Christ is the sacrament. Christ is the oath that God has sworn for our salvation. So we must accept the challenge to allow Christ to live his life in us and join with him in pledging to God that we will live the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help us God."

I hope this helps!