Do you agree with "humanae vitae"

[kokokolo]

I am just curious guys, I sort of stumbled onto it, and ive been thinking about it...

dont know what it is? Humanae Vitae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae%5FVitae)

ie. birth control is a sin.

[psaturn]

I agree.

[kokokolo]

I think I do to. at least with some of it.

[Damien Voorhees]

I agree, also.

When Pope Paul VI promulgated "humanae vitae' in 1963, he said, "this course of action [artificilial birth control] could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and... reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection."

Artificial birth control was considered sinful by ALL Christians until 1930.

"Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception. [ http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp ]

Birth control has had profound consequences on world culture: abortion, STD's, single parenting, degradation of male/female relationships, higher divorce rates, acceptance of same-gender relationships since sex is no longer procreative but recreative. These consequences were predicted by Pope Paul VI and the other authors of human vitae [including Cardinal Karol Wojtyla who became Pope John Paul II].

For nearly 2000 years, all Christians agreed that artificial birth control was a sin.

[jlands]

So the fact that I had a vasectomy 6 years ago makes me a sinner. Even though the reason I had it was because it was less painful an ordeal as my wife getting her tubes tied. The doctors felt that us trying to have another child would result in the death of my wife, child or both. But hey according to the Pope, which is a self proclaimed title if you have ever researched it, I am a sinner for that.

OK. Whatever. I don't have to answer to him.

The Bible also talks about drinking to excess, but still mentions Jesus turning water into wine. It all amounts to what are your intentions in doing what you are doing. Sin is disobeying God. Not disobeying a man.

[Mavrick]

i dont think birth control is a sin, and it shouldnt be, its a choice.

[l0stsheep]

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So the fact that I had a vasectomy 6 years ago makes me a sinner. Even though the reason I had it was because it was less painful an ordeal as my wife getting her tubes tied. The doctors felt that us trying to have another child would result in the death of my wife, child or both. But hey according to the Pope, which is a self proclaimed title if you have ever researched it, I am a sinner for that.

OK. Whatever. I don't have to answer to him.


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Wow...Somone's a little angry. It's weird that someone who's convinced he's innocent, would feel compelled to try to convince us all.

I guess, and this is just my opinion, if you use birth control, you are preventing a life from being formed by God, therefore getting in His way to do His work. If you and your wife were to come together, and God were to have her to get pregnant, and something were to happen, then it was God's will. MAYBE your wife would servive and your kid would grow up to cure cancer. Birth control is touchy because you are dealing with lives. And, in some cases, almost acting like God in preventing some.

But I find it hard to believe that the Pope is "self" proclaimed.

"I'm the POPE!....I'm the POPE!....I'm the pope...i'm the..."

I thought the college of cardinals elected him?

[jlands]

I don't feel compelled to proclaim my innocences. I don't care at all how you feel about my guilt or innocences. There is only one that will judge me.

I just find it funny how Christianity is so corrupt. I have grown so sick of organized religion lately. It makes me sick how to see "The Plastic People". A friend I have had a drug problem. He was alienated and pushed out of the Church, but the vanity, the greed and envy is OK. People will double talk each other until they don't even know who they are talking to. Politics and money are all that is spoken of. "Can we make the to one of the top 50 Chuches in the Country" is all you hear from the pastor.

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No divine force, but a pitifully human series of forgeries and coercions, of pious frauds and truculent ambitions, perpetrated in an age of deep ignorance, built up the Papal power, hierarchy, and creed.

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A History of the Popes (1939) and several other volumes and need say here only that the "Letter of the Church of Rome to the Church of Corinth," though not unchallenged, is the decisive document. Catholic writers quite falsely represent it as an assertion of his authority by Pope Clement in the last decade of the first century and make him base his authority on St. Peter. On the contrary, the letter is written in the name of the Roman community, not of its bishop, and is a friendly appeal from one church to another.

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http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/popes_and_church/PandC-1.html

Read the article I mentioned about. It describes how the Pope came into power. Throughout history there are many instances of the Roman Catholic Church's corruption. Not to mention the many corrupt Popes there have been.

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I guess, and this is just my opinion, if you use birth control, you are preventing a life from being formed by God, therefore getting in His way to do His work.

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That's a very egotistical statement from you. Do you really think that if God wants a life formed that you can do anything to stop it? Putting a piece of latex in the way will not stop God. If God wants me to have children then it wouldn't matter if I don't have any reproductive organs at all.

All you are doing is judging those people who use birth control.

[Hooah101]

i agree with u jlands

[l0stsheep]

You mean, if God wants an unborn child to have life(which is obviously the case) a needle is going to get in the way of that...

While I agree with you, that if God has the desire for a child to be born, he doesn't even need the person to be fertile, he doesn't even need the woman to have had sex. But I'm not talking about what God CAN do, I'm talking about giving God the best opportunity to work. See the difference?

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All you are doing is judging those people who use birth control.

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I'm not judging anyone. And I never said anything about organized religion. To me, and I think this will be agreed with by others, if you use birth control, you aren't trusting God. 1. maybe you don't trust God to help you provide for a new kid. 2. Maybe you don't trust God to have you new child come at the right time. Who knows. You are taking the purpose out of the act. If you have sex and you get pregnant, then it is God's will. You can have sex and not get pregnant, if that's the case, it's God will. Either way, you are dealing with a life.

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He was alienated and pushed out of the Church, but the vanity, the greed and envy is OK.

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Yep, this is what it's like with every Christian.

Why don't you do something about it, then?

[kwood34]

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If you have sex and you get pregnant, then it is God's will. You can have sex and not get pregnant, if that's the case, it's God will. Either way, you are dealing with a life.


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Interesting logic. Whatever happens is God's will. So if someone uses a condom how do you know it wasn't God's will?

[kokokolo]

Damien Voorhees wrote
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Birth control has had profound consequences on world culture: abortion, STD's, single parenting, degradation of male/female relationships, higher divorce rates, acceptance of same-gender relationships since sex is no longer procreative but recreative. These consequences were predicted by Pope Paul VI and the other authors of human vitae

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Birth control has had these consequences, But to me at least, I see these consequences as because of people being more free to have sex with more people without consequences. as far as degradation of relationships and higher divorce rates, these are a sort of outcome of people that shouldnt have gotten married, but did for the wrong reasons, for lust. That problem would be mostly cured by stopping pre-marital sex. Contraception is a pass for people to practice fornication and rationalize that its ok. I like ranting.
jlands wrote
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The Bible also talks about drinking to excess, but still mentions Jesus turning water into wine. It all amounts to what are your intentions in doing what you are doing. Sin is disobeying God. Not disobeying a man.

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hey bro, this was covered in a bible study actually. To put it quickly, in the original language they had the same word for all liquids that came from grapes. so grape juice and wine both translated to wine, so you must use the context to figure out which is being referred to.

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So the fact that I had a vasectomy 6 years ago makes me a sinner. Even though the reason I had it was because it was less painful an ordeal as my wife getting her tubes tied. The doctors felt that us trying to have another child would result in the death of my wife, child or both. But hey according to the Pope, which is a self proclaimed title if you have ever researched it, I am a sinner for that.

OK. Whatever. I don't have to answer to him.

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your right you dont have to answer to him. The question I wonder now is, who is the pope? either
1. A prophet from god therefore everything he says is true
2. A man given a position of authority by a group of people.
I am pretty sure the pope is just a holy man therefore what he says is, just like every other man, is his opinions.

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A friend I have had a drug problem. He was alienated and pushed out of the Church, but the vanity, the greed and envy is OK. People will double talk each other until they don't even know who they are talking to. Politics and money are all that is spoken of. "Can we make the to one of the top 50 Chuches in the Country" is all you hear from the pastor.

[/ QUOTE ]
again dude, I wanna tell you churches are filled with the unsaved, that doesnt mean christ didnt die for your sins. Im sorry for the hypocrisy at that church and lots of churces everywhere. Since I have become a christian, I have went to a bunch of churches, many could be like what you mentioned. But the one I go to now would never, never ever do that. Those people at that church were not right, but they were probably not really christian either. just cause they go to church, does not make them a christian. Remember, to take a quote from fight club:
sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken

so here is what I think, this is all intuitively . Maybe not biblical at all who knows. I think there is a intimate connection between 2 people when they touch, That a condom messes up. I would imagine being married and giving my spouse a massage, then imagine them giving me a massage. Now imagine it but wearing rubber gloves ! or them wearing rubber gloves. Not the same connection. I also think, that when you get married to someone you love, under no circumstances should you be afraid of having to raise a child with that person, but always happy that you could start a family anytime. But after youv had so many children, and where the pope talks about abstinance in marriage, I dont know :< I dont agree that sex was made for the purpose of procreation. It seems obvious to me that there are 2 purposes, procreation and intimacy. If you are not fertile should you never have sex? So contraception in general is a bad idea.

But with circumstances like jlands vasectomy it isnt any more of a sin than getting surgery you need. to survive, you wouldnt argue that you shouldnt get surgery because you are messing up gods plan ... Look what you did wasnt an act of disobediance to god, it was an act of love for your wife. I have no choice but to assume god is pleased with that. If I was married and the doctor told me my wife had a good chance of dying if she got pregnant, I would be at the front of the line to get snipped.

[Adam Knowlden]

First everyone, I would like to remind everyone, this is the sanctuary, not a gang territory to beat up on anyone.

Everyone can share their view, and its ok to disagree, but lets be respectful. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Having said that I do not believe contraception devices that prevent a sperm and egg from combining are murderous. The intention of this type of prevention is what needs judged by the Word.

If they are used to fulfill fornicating desires, it is clearly as sin. If a married couple uses them they are not sinful at all. There is no condemnation of this anywhere in the bible. This is just another yoke religion lays on people that does not exist in the bible.

Once an egg and sperm meet, the embryo is alive and has all the genetic information to become a complete human being.

Contraception devices like the "morning after" pill and abortion are indeed murder because the egg and sperm have joined.

Here is a great article:

Question: "What does the Bible say about birth control? Should Christians use birth control?”



Answer: Man was commissioned by God "to be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) and marriage was instituted by God as a stable environment to have and rear children. In our society, children are often considered a nuisance and a burden. They stand in the way of people's career paths, financial goals, and they “crimp your style” socially. Often selfishness is at the root of contraceptive use.



Genesis 38 tells of Judah's sons, Er and Onan. Er married a woman named Tamar, but he was wicked and the Lord killed him, leaving Tamar with no husband or children. Tamar was given in marriage to Er's brother, Onan, in accordance with the law of levirate marriage in Deuteronomy 25:5-6. Onan did not want to split his inheritance with any child that he might sire on Tamar on his brother's behalf, so he practiced the oldest form of birth control. Genesis 38:10 says "What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight ; so He put him to death also." Onan's motivation was selfish: he used Tamar for his own pleasure, but refused to perform his “brotherly” duty of creating an heir for his deceased brother. It was not the act of contraception that caused the Lord to put Onan to death, but rather Onan’s selfish motives behind the action. Here are some verses that describe children from God's perspective:



A gift from God: Genesis 4:1, Genesis 33:5

A heritage from the Lord: Psalm 127:3-5

A blessing from God: Luke 1:42

A crown to the aged: Proverbs 17:6

God blesses barren women with children: Psalm 113:9, Genesis 21:1-3, 25:21-22, and 30:1-2, 1 Samuel 1:6-8, Luke 1:7, 24-25

God forms children in the womb: Psalm 139:13-16

God knows children before birth: Jeremiah 1:5, Galatians 1:15



It is important to view children as God sees them, not as the world tells us we should. Having said that, the Bible does not forbid contraception. Contraception, by it's definition, is the merely opposite of conception. It is not the act of contraception itself that determines whether it is wrong or right. As we learned from Onan, it is the motivation behind the contraception that determines if it is right or wrong. If a person is practicing contraception because they will have more for themselves, then it is wrong. If a person is practicing contraception in order to temporarily delay children until they are more mature and more financially and spiritually prepared, then it is acceptable to use contraception for a time. Again, it all comes back to your motivation.


Hi Jilands,

Well first I would discourage researching articles from infidel.org. They are blatantly anti-Christ so you will not get any biblical truth from that site. Moreover, their facts are often times incorrect and skewed in an atheistic light.

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The Bible also talks about drinking to excess, but still mentions Jesus turning water into wine. It all amounts to what are your intentions in doing what you are doing. Sin is disobeying God. Not disobeying a man.

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Well sin can be disobeying human authority God has established. But sin is anything that goes against the nature of God.

Would Christ have provided 120 gallons of alcohol to individuals who the proponents of this theory claim were already drunk? By definition would that not mean God aided them in pursuing sin?

In the context it becomes clear this was new wine, which was unfermented wine.

The Greek word here is oinos, which does not articulate fermented or unfermented from the word alone, but must be derived from the context.

I did a huge study on this in our bible study links if you would like to research more bro. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The bible does not condone drinking alcohol at all. This is not popular and many do not even know this. They really don't research either, they just cite Jesus miracle of changing water to wine. The bible is clear alcohol is considered unholy and fermented wine's fruit is rotten.

[Adam Knowlden]

Here you go bro:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sho...;o=&fpart=1 (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=520975& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sho...;o=&fpart=1 (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=815188&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[jeffrobodean]

Old School -
I was going to paste the same reply:
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It was not the act of contraception that caused the Lord to put Onan to death, but rather Onan’s selfish motives behind the action.

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That is what I go by.
My wife and I practice contraception so that we can make a good life for our children and raise them the way we see fit. Becoming a "baby factory" because the Roman Catholic Church tells me that's what I need to do isn't something I subscribe to.

I don't force my views on anyone and I don't call anyone out because they follow the Pope. I just don't agree with it.

I was raised Lutheran, and I tell you, I don't think I would go to Heaven because I was not saved and re-born. I just went through the motions. My mother and father divorced when I was young. My father remarried a Catholic, and now the Church refuses to let her partake in Communion because she's "living in sin". It has really hurt her. What really got me riled up is that if she and my father would have paid her Church a couple thousand dollars, they would have annuled my father's first marriage so that it didn't exist in the eyes of God. What???!! Then she could have taken Communion.

It is my opinion that God will not turn anyone away from his table if they want to partake in the bread and blood of Life.

I pay about as little attention to the Pope proclaiming my father and stepmother as living in sin as I do to him proclaiming that me and my wife are living in sin because we practice birth control.

If God feels that I am in the wrong, he will point that out to me on the day of judgement. I know that he has already made a room for me in his house and I will be there when my time on this Earth is up, and that's all I need to know. No man on Earth can change that.

[Adam Knowlden]

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That is what I go by.
My wife and I practice contraception so that we can make a good life for our children and raise them the way we see fit. Becoming a "baby factory" because the Roman Catholic Church tells me that's what I need to do isn't something I subscribe to.

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Also its good to point out that sex is not just about procreation.

It is symbolic of a marriage covenant.

It is much like we celebrate our blood covenant through Christ via communion.

Sex has many more spiritual applications outside of reproduction. It makes the man and woman one flesh.

This whole idea seems to stem from the idea that enjoying sex is sinful. Or that birth control is unnatural and "cheapens" Christ. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif For those who don't know, God created sex. It was his idea. There is this religious idea Christians are not supposed to enjoy anything. That is completely wrong. We should have much more enjoyment than heathens because we have Christ. Also sex in marriage is fulfilling the way God created it to be because there is genunie love, a covenant relationship, and the Lord is in the marriage. God wants us to enjoy sex in the confines of marriage.

I can quote many verses to demonstrate that.

Also if memory serves the catholic church endores rhythm, or having sex based on the fertility cycle to avoid conception. That seems like circular reasoning.

To be fair here is an article that supports the catholic view. I won't pick it apart, although I disagree with many of the applications. For non-catholics you will note the definitions applies such as "Cheapening sex" are man-made opinion, not verses found in the bible:

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The Roman Catholic Church is against unnatural means of birth control. In the religion of Roman Catholicism, a married couple needs to be open to having children. Artificial birth control takes Jesus Christ out of the factor. The birth control pill can cause women to abort without even knowing it. Sex is a beautiful act, and when artificial birth control is used, sex is cheapened.
Natural family planning is the natural way of determining when and how many children a couple is going to have. Sometimes when people think of natural family planning, they think that it's the old fashioned rhythm method. NFP is often accused of being unreliable, and leaving couples pregnant when they didn't plan to be. However, NFP is the safest birth control method available and very reliable. The key is it needs to be used correctly. NFP is healthy and morally safe.

The Catholic Church is against unnatural means of birth control. A married couple needs to be open to having children. Artificial birth control takes God out of the factor. The birth control pill can cause women to abort without even knowing it. Sex is a beautiful act, and when artificial birth control is used, sex is cheapened.

Sex is a gift made for a husband and wife, but its main purpose is for creation of new life. Catholics don't expect you to have a million kids. Catholics are in favor of family planning, but the natural kind. If a couple uses artificial birth control, then they are taking away any opportunity for any life to exist. God definitely loves life, and He is sad when life is denied. The possibility of new life should always be open.

Systematic NFP is the most widely used method. Systematic NFP is primarily about daily monitoring of the woman's fertility cycle. The couple needs to monitor basal temperature and vaginal moucus. Temperature needs to be taken daily when the woman wakes up. You can keep track of temperature readings and moucus in a notebook or chart.

The beauty of NFP is that it also brings couples together. The husband can remind his wife about her daily temperature recordings and so forth. Roughly, there are about 100 hours a month that a woman can get pregnant. The dates vary on when she can get pregnant based on temperature and moucus readings. Pinpointing when these days are, and avoiding intercourse in those days, will help avoid pregnancy. However, if you want to become pregnant, you can learn what days you are most fertile.

Why isn't NFP more publicized? Money mainly. NFP is free, except for thermometer, notebook or chart and training. Training can be free at some hospitals or centers. There are also kits you can buy to teach NFP to yourself. Artificial birth control isn't free. Sex is natural, but also a committed act. Think about it - You do not want to give your body up to a person that can leave you easily.

Other Advantages:

* Easy to use - You can take a home study course or attend classes. Once you get in a set pattern, you are good to go. It takes a few minutes a day, and abstaining from sex on fertile days if you want to avoid pregnancy.

* Free - All you need to buy is a thermometer, notebook or chart, and course materials.

* Moral - You don't have to worry about aborting by the pill. Plus, you're using sex the way it was meant to be used.

You can either become pregnant or space out your children to your choice.

Healthy - There are no side effects or allergies from NFP.



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