Water Baptism

[Tranquillity]

Do you guys think Water Baptism (immersion) is the only true way of being baptized? This has been plaguing me for about a year now...

p.s. I was "sprinkled" back in like 1992-93.

[Hooah101]

For me I was sprinkled as a baby. This baptism was more of my parents i guess giving me up to God and them showing that they want His will to be done in my life. I was later baptised around 13 when I truely accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. This was my decision not theirs like the first baptism. To me it doesnt matter either way you are baptised as long as it was your profession of your belief in God and you accepting him and not someone else doing it for you

[Adam Knowlden]

I don't think it really matters. Jesus was submerged.

<font color="red"> 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
</font>

Water baptism is just a public display of your faith, many try to make it a work of holiness. The bible is clear no work we can do makes us holy.

[kprzCreation]

But isnt baptism needed to be forgiven and born again?

Also the prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart is called the "sinners prayer" and from what I understand is unbiblical. http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm


Acts 2:38-41

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls

Matthew 3:13-16

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."


Ephesians 4:4-5

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



Romans 6:3-5

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.



I Peter 3:21

This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, it saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.



Colossians 2:12

and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.



John 3:1-5

Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 8:26-40

And the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Get up, and go toward the south unto the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, which is desert. And he got up and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near, and stay close to this chariot. And Philip ran up to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, How can I, except someone should guide me? And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.” And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I ask you, of whom is the prophet speaking? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached to him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came to some water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what keeps me from being baptized? And Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stop: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and Philip baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, and the eunuch saw him no more: but he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.



Galatians 3:26-27

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.



Mark 16:15-16

And he said unto them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.



Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit



Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.



Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
But isnt baptism needed to be forgiven and born again?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a command from God, but no it is not required for salvation.

Anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ as being required for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add ANYTHING to the Gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say that we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.

We are justified by faith, not baptism.

Christ commissioned baptism and communion, both are symbolic of our faith, but they are not objects of our faith.

Baptismal regenderation is a classic example of the fallacy of denything the antecedent.

<font color="brown">16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. </font>

The first part of the verse is an implication: if a person believes and is baptized then he will be saved. It is invalid to argue from this that anyone who is not baptized will not be saved. The second part is an explicit statement that unbelief results in condemnation.

To demonstrate the fallacy, examine the following statement which is in the same logical form:

"Whatever has feathers and flies is a bird, but whatever does not have feathers is not a bird." This statement does not teach that there are no flightless birds.

Furthermore, I can quickly demonstrate how those verses back up what I am saying.

<font color="red"> John 3:1-5

Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. </font>

This is dealing with being born again, not water baptism at all.

Water baptism was already occuring at this time via John the Baptist, but it did not remove sin.

If so, Christ would not have had to die, yet He did!

[ QUOTE ]
Acts 2:38-41

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls


[/ QUOTE ]

First let me also state, I do believe you should be baptized, but I do not believe it is necessary for salvation, any more than communion is necessary for salvation. Although if John 6 is applied literally, it would appear that way. Clearly there is a illustration being made!

[ QUOTE ]
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did those baptized by John the Baptist, receive the Holy Ghost?

No! John himself stated,

<font color="red">16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
</font>

So clearly water baptism as demonstrated by John is a public announcement of one'e new life in Christ, and to those before Christ died faith in the coming Messiah.

But true baptism is from God, and is baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is of fire from God.

If this is not the case, then Christ's parables of the wheat and tares is false.

The parable teaches that there will be many false believers.

However, they would have been baptized in water, yet their heart was not sincere. If water baptism saves someone, then even those whose heart was corrupt would escape judgement. This is clearly unbiblical.

[ QUOTE ]
Matthew 3:13-16

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly a special occasion, to reveal to John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ. The Spirit was not yet given to men, for Christ had not yet ascended, so this can not really be applied universally. Although I do believe it is possible to receive the Holy Ghost during water baptism, I do not believe they are mutually exclusive. This is demonstrated in scripture (Acts 19).

[ QUOTE ]
Romans 6:3-5

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great verse, but lets look at the last verse in this chapter:

<font color="brown"> 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. </font>

Eternal life comes through faith in Christ, not water baptism.

First we know Christ did not baptize anyone in water, so John saying Christ would baptize with fire was clearly teaching about a spiritual baptism, not a physical one. Furthermore, this would not occur during his earthly ministry.

<font color="blue"> 1When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

</font>

Secondly, there is clearly two types of baptism.

<font color="brown"> Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7And all the men were about twelve.

</font>

John's baptism was to acknowldege publically faith in the coming Messiah and repentance, Christ's baptism is the power of the Holy Spirit, which is of fire.

It occured when Paul laid his hands on them, not from water.

Let's look at all of Col. 2, not one selection of passage:

<font color="red"> 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

</font>

Verse 12 clearly states faith is what saves. And baptism is used to illustrate a word picture, similar to circumcision in verse 11.

[ QUOTE ]
Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, not by any work of righteousness.

The thief on the cross clearly demonstrated this.

He was condemed for thievery, and was initally mocking Christ.

Just before he died he confessed and repented, and was never baptized, yet Christ said He would enter paradise.

<font color="red"> I Peter 3:21

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, it saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. </font>

This verse does not say baptism is necessary for salvation. It shows that a baptism is public evidence of a clean conscience toward God. Again, saved by the resurrection, not the baptism as the the last section of the verse states.

[ QUOTE ]
Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

[/ QUOTE ]

So does Christ's blood wash away sins or does water?

Clearly, this is taken out of context, or the bible contradicts itself.

The bible is very clear we are saved by grace through faith, nothing more.

We are commanded to be baptized and we should be baptized pubically, but the only thing necessary for salvation is faith in Christ!

<font color="red">Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. </font>

<font color="blue">Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. </font>

We are justified by Christ only, convicted by our conscience.

[ QUOTE ]
Also the prayer where you ask Jesus to come into your heart is called the "sinners prayer" and from what I understand is unbiblical. http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm


[/ QUOTE ]

See above.


[ QUOTE ]
the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). Scripture does not contradict Scripture. In Bible times, a person who converted from one religion to another was often baptized to identify conversion. Baptism was the means of making a decision public. Those who refused to be baptized were saying they did not truly believe. So, in the minds of the apostles, the idea of an un-baptized believer was unheard of. When a person claimed to believe in Christ, yet was ashamed to proclaim his faith in public, it indicated that he did not have true faith.



If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius" (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:17)?



In regards to Acts 2:38, the Greek word in this verse that is translated as "for" is "eis." The root meaning of "eis" is "into", but this word can have several different senses. It can mean "in order that." If this were the meaning here, it would mean "be baptized IN ORDER THAT you will be forgiven of your sins." However, this would be contrary to all of the rest of Scripture which teaches that salvation is by faith. Read the Gospel of John. The reader is instructed over and over again to believe, and never once told to be baptized for salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 3:18; 3:36; 5:24; 11:25-26; 12:44; 20:31). Another meaning for the word "eis" is "because of." If this is the correct meaning, and I believe it is because it agrees with the rest of Scripture, then Acts 2:38 is saying "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins." Again, this agrees with all of the rest of Scripture where we are told that Faith alone in the person and work of Jesus Christ is what saves. Another option takes into account the shift from second to third person in the Greek text, making the verse read, "Repent for the forgiveness of your sins, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

Peter 3:21 tells us, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Baptism represents a complete break with one's past life. As the Flood wiped away the old sinful world, so baptism pictures one's break from his old sinful life and his entrance into new life in Christ. Peter now applied to his readers the principle he set forth in verses 13-17 and illustrated in verses 18-20. He exhorted them to have the courage to commit themselves to a course of action by taking a public stand for Christ through baptism. The act of public baptism would "save" them from the temptation to sacrifice their good consciences in order to avoid persecution. For a first-century Christian, baptism meant he was following through on his commitment to Christ, regardless of the consequences.



In regards to John 3:5, baptism is not the meaning of “born of water” that passage. Baptism is nowhere referred to as “born of water” in Scripture. Jesus’ explanation in verse 6 is that He is referring to physical birth. He declares, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” In other words, there are two types of birth – natural and spiritual. In Jesus’ analogy, then, the natural birth refers to being born of water. During pregnancy the unborn child floats in amniotic fluid in the mother’s womb. During childbirth, this water is expelled. A child is literally born “out of water”. Therefore, the expression “born of water” is used as a figure for physical birth.



Baptismal regeneration is not a Biblical concept. Baptism does not save from sin, but from a bad conscience. Peter clearly taught that baptism was not merely a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (cf. Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). To make the source of salvation perfectly clear Peter added, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Peter 1:3).


[/ QUOTE ]

[kprzCreation]

Great post Adam. It really made me see the core of things.

[Adam Knowlden]

Glad it helped bro, and great breakdown by the way.

I had the same question at one point, so I'm glad some of the research I've done could help you out.

[War5475]

I would like to speak on this brethren. The following is what the bible says on baptism. If you get tired of reading at least skip to the bottom and read my comments at the end. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sorry for the long post. Its just a big subject.


Acts 2: 38 and 3: 19 are urgently important, as they pertain to the salvation of the non-Christian.



Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 3: 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;



The fact Acts 2: 38 and 3: 19 are parallel is obvious. There are a number of twin verses (cp. Eph. 5: 22/Col. 3: 18; Eph. 5: 18/Col. 3: 16, etc.).


Eph. 5: 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.


Col. 3: 18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.


Eph. 5: 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


Col. 3: 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


Not only do these twin verses show consistency in teaching (Paul taught the same to the Ephesians and to the Colossians), but by comparison, a richer analysis of the verses can be enjoyed. Both Acts 2: 38 and 3: 19 are designed to instruct the lost as to what God requires of them in order to be initially saved (Acts 2: 14, 22).


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Peter charged these Jews with having murdered the Son of God (Acts 2: 23, 36).


Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



They had committed murder ignorantly, nonetheless, they were accountable (Acts 3: 17).


Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.




These twin verses read: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2: 38). Acts 3: 19 reads, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord" (KJV).

An examination of Acts 2: 38 (part of Peter's sermon, vss. 14-40). Repentance (metanoeo) is a compound word. W. E. Vine comments, "Meta, after, implying change, noeo, to perceive; nous, the mind…." (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). The lost must change their mind and will to do what God requires. Repentance, used in the context of salvation and when fully illustrated, is brought about by godly sorrow, involves a change of will, and leads to restoration of life (2 Cor. 7: 9, Matt. 21: 29, 2 Cor. 7: 11).


2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.


Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.


2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.



"And be baptized…" is in the passive voice indicating baptism is something that was to be administered to them. Water baptism (the baptism of the Great Commission) is essential (Rom. 6: 3-5, Col. 2: 12).


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:



Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.



Peter said "every one of you." Repentance and baptism are universal and apply to all responsible individuals.

"Repent and be baptized…in the name of Jesus Christ…" suggests Jesus' authority (Col. 3: 17).


Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.



Jesus had taught repentance and baptism (Lk. 24: 47; Mk. 16: 16).


Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.



Hence, these requirements are by his authority or in his name. Notice how repentance and baptism are joined ("and," kai).

"For the remission of sins…." This expression (eis aphesin ton amartion) states one purpose of baptism when accompanied by repentance. Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sin (Matt. 26: 28). Therefore, it is in water baptism preceded by repentance that remission is experienced, I Pet. 3: 21, Acts 22: 16).



1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.



"…And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Sprit." The gift of the Holy Spirit is the second stated benefit of repentance and baptism. The gift of the Holy Spirit is not miraculous because after some of the audience was baptized, only the apostles continued to perform miracles (2: 43, 4: 14-16, 33, 5: 12).



Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.



Act 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Act 4:15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,

Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them [is] manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny [it].



Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.


Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.



It was not until the laying on of the apostles hands that others performed miracles (6: 6-8, cp. 8: 16-19).


Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid [their] hands on them.

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.



Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.



The gift of the Spirit involved the Abrahamic fulfillment to the Jews and then to the Gentiles (Acts 2). "That the blessing of Abraham, " Paul later wrote, "might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the spirit through faith" (Gal. 3: 14). The gift of the Spirit is universal and for all who "repent and are baptized" (vs. 39).

An examination of Acts 3: 19 (part of Peter's second recorded sermon, Acts 3: 11-4: 1). Peter consistently enjoins repentance, "Repent ye…." He adds, "therefore" (oun). They should have repented because ("therefore") they had murdered Jesus, whom Peter presented as the Messiah (3: 14-18).

"…and be converted…." This expression (kai epistrepsate) is literally translated "and turn" (ASV). The corresponding portion of Acts 2: 38 says, "…be baptized…." It is in baptism that one officially "turns" to God (Rom. 6: 3 ff, Acts 26: 17, 18). Remission of sins is associated with the turning (Acts 26: 18, 2: 38, 3: 19). There are certain changes that have already occurred in the person's life before baptism. (Faith and repentance bring about certain changes, attitudinal and behavioral, Acts 2: 36, 37, 38). However, it is in water baptism that the old man is put off and the new man is put on (Rom. 6).

"…that your sins may be blotted out…." In Acts 2: 38 Peter said, "for the remission of sins (eis aphesin ton amartion). Here (3: 19) Peter said, "that your sins may be blotted out…" (pros to exaleiphthenai). "Remission" (aphesis) means to release; "blotted out" (exaleipho) means to smear or wash completely (W. E. Vine). Hence, Saul was told, "…arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins…" (Acts 22: 16). To "blot out" means God does not make a remembrance of our sins (cp. Heb. 8: 8-13 and 10: 1-3).

"…when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." This expression is parallel to "the gift of the Holy Spirit" in Acts 2: 38. "Refreshing" (anapsuxeos) suggests relief. What a beautiful description of salvation in general.

We read regarding some in the large audience of Acts 2, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls" (vs. 41). Luke (the believed writer of Acts) tells us regarding some who heard Peter's second sermon: "Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand" (4: 4). These two wonderful sermons resulted in salvation and in persecution as well (4: 5 ff). Some accept the word (those with good hearts); some reject the word.




All of this is what the bible says. Some say Baptism is salvation dependant. Others say not. The questions I pose to all of you is this. After examining all of the evidence before you. What are your answers to these?


1. If Christ asked us to do somthing why would we say no to him?

2. Does it even matter if it is salvation dependant if he asked us to do it?

3. If we see that upon baptisim we recieve the holy spirit. Why would we choose not to be baptized? Why live our lives with out the great comforter. Its allready hard enough as it is.


You see its not about who is right or wrong. Its about doing what Christ asked us to do. He did ask us to be Baptized. This is unquestionable. So can you give me one single reason to not be baptized?

[Adam Knowlden]

Yes, bible truths.net is a good site,

I don't think anyone questions that we should be baptized, but rather is it required for salvation.

I do not agree with all of those above points however, I will explain more later. Thanks for sharing.

[jeffrobodean]

I was baptized as a baby - and was baptized once again as an adult when I joined my Church and became re-born.
I think baptism is a symbol of that re-birth. I don't think it is necessary requirement to be saved, but I do believe that baptizing babies isn't necessary. It's more for the parents' piece of mind than anything else. I do not think that Jesus will not let a baby/child into the gates of Heaven because s/he wasn't baptized. Baptism should be a conscience decision that you made when you decided to turn your life over to Christ. The big thing about all the Biblical passages that I see is that nowhere does it mention children or babies being baptized.

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14

[War5475]

Yes that is a great website. I use that and many others in alot of my studies and lessons. With a subject that has been studied at leangth such as this one. Its alot easier to stand on the work of others. lol

Im sorry i didnt have the time to answere some of the questions at leangth. But please post any questions you have and i can answer them more thoroughly.

[War5475]

Also i think it is pointless to worry about weather it is salvation dependant. I think this is somthing Satan has used to divide so many people and churches. Why argue about somthing that is so easy to do. My hole point is Christ asked us to do it. What does it matter? He asked us to love one another. No one has an issue with that command. We dont see people getting upset because someone wants to be a christian and says I can be a christian and not have to love all of you.

People have tried to make this an issue of who is right and who is wrong. We cant look at it from this point of view. We should ask. What do the scripturs say?

Anyway I hate to argue about things like this. No one is right no one is wrong. Only the Scritptures are right.

[Adam Knowlden]

I'm short on time now, but

[ QUOTE ]
Also i think it is pointless to worry about weather it is salvation dependant

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel it is as people that believe this way, demonstrate they do not believe in the cross as full attonement for sin.

Anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ as being required for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add ANYTHING to the Gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say that we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is somthing Satan has used to divide so many people and churches.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree satan twists all sorts of scripture, fortunately there can only be one truth, and the bible is clear. We are saved by Grace by faith, not of works.

Its not really a hard concept, adding burdens to the equation is the deception.

[ QUOTE ]
argue about somthing that is so easy to do. My hole point is Christ asked us to do it. What does it matter? He asked us to love one another. No one has an issue with that command. We dont see people getting upset because someone wants to be a christian and says I can be a christian and not have to love all of you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think those that preach baptismal regeneration are presenting the gospel accurately in more than just this area. Not that they are not saved, but that they tend to lay "work driven" burdens on people.

[ QUOTE ]
Only the Scritptures are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and I believe they are clear:

(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

(Rom. 3:20,28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Here is a great article:

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

And I do believe these are important matters to discuss because it reveals a works based mindset.

We see that we are to study the scriptures to find truth:

<font color="brown"> 2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. </font>

Here is the full text:

<font color="red"> 14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"[a] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." </font>

CLearly this is worth discussing, if there is an act outside of the cross which is necessary for salvation! That is huge!

<font color="green"> 10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
</font>

WE need to study the bible to avoid deception by satan.

The greatest deception is when we do not study for ourselves, that is why so many follow false doctrines today, and just believe whatever they hear.

Whether that is a false teacher, book like "DaVinci Code", or what have you.

The bible says the group in Acts 17 were noble for searching the scriptures and testing what Paul was preaching.

They were open to God's Word's not man's fallible opinion. Unfortunatly you can only know God's Word if you study it.

[War5475]

Thanks for your imput. I do have to respectfully disagree with your comments. While the scripture you posted is definatly Correct. Christ spoke definitivly about the subject.


John 3:3


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So here we see that one cannot enter into heaven unless he be born of water and the spirit. This is Christs words.

Latter on those who profess that baptizm is not needed say that John 3:16 says that as long as we belive we will have everlasting life. No because baptism is infered. Christ did not contradict himself. He had said just a paragraph before what was needed. So the listiner understood that baptism was infered. After carful study of the scripture you can see from the time of John the baptist baptism was a common practice.

We need only read verses like this to understand how interwoven baptism was.


1st corinthians 1:13

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.


1 Corinthians 12:13

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.


Galations 3: 1

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Romans 6:3-4

says, "Or do you not know, that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death: that just as Christ Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."


These are just a small snipit of all the scripture that refers to baptism. But there seems to be a pattern here. There's alot more than public notification going on here.

Is baptism a work? No more than professing faith in Christ as your savior. So if you look at it as a work then you actually do two works you profess your faith and you get baptised. In My own humble opinion. I dont agree that it is a work. No more than professing faith in Christ is a work.

Christ was very clear on what we are to do to be saved. I agree that we are to study unceasingly. This is the basis of a great many problems we in the church have today. You should allways test the spirits.

All of this said. My peice is done I just needed to bring a few scrpturs to light.

I respect and understand your veiw point. I humbly disagree with it. But I still Love you and would do anything for you. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your Brother in Christ Keith.

[Tranquillity]

Wow, thanks for the responses guys. I'm feelin better on the subject. Also, I gotta say, it's great to find a community of people that are into working out and also strong in their faith. I wish I could find people where I live that are like that, hah...I have a good number of friends, but none are Christians, sadly...So I don't really have a forum in my life to ask questions like that, besides my mom. Thanks again.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey War, I'm not mad just discussing,

so to simplify ( I like to keep things simple), you are stating it takes more than the faith in Jesus to enter heaven?

So for my grandfather, who received Christ on his deathbed and was never baptized can not enter heaven?

That is a false doctrine. My grandfather dying on his death bed confessing CHrist is all he needed to do.

Justified by faith.

Now do not mistake the fact that baptism is vital, but the ONLY thing needed for salvation is the blood of Christ, nothing more.

If you don't mind me asking, What denomination are you Church of Christ?

[ QUOTE ]
Christ spoke definitivly about the subject.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So here we see that one cannot enter into heaven unless he be born of water and the spirit. This is Christs words

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but as you will see He was not talking about anything physical at all.

<font color="red"> 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

</font>

Born of water and spirit, is not baptism my friend.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were never baptised in water yet Jesus said they entered the kingdom of heaven.

How did they enter?

Genesis explains,

<font color="red"> 5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
</font>

Faith in the promises of God.

Faith justifies and is solely responsible for imputing rightouesness in the age of the patriarchs. The same applies today except the promise is fulfilled and now we put faith in Christ and His righteousness is imputed on us.

Born of water probably refers to being born of the Word of God, since to be born again is to be born of the word and of the spirit (1 Peter 1:23). The Word of God is compared to water in Ephesians 5:26 also, no doubt because, like water, it has cleansing power. Real faith comes by the Word. Therefore one needs to be born of the seed of the word in order to be saved.

There is no clear evidence to base this doctrine on the above passage.

[ QUOTE ]
We need only read verses like this to understand how interwoven baptism was.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in other words, it takes more than the cross to enter heaven?

How then did the thief on the cross enter?

First he was railing on Christ, then confessed to believe in him...yet no baptism.

[ QUOTE ]
But there seems to be a pattern here. There's alot more than public notification going on here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me state again, I do believe baptism is absolutely vital to the Christian life. Christ commanded it!

But it is not essential for salvation. The entire book of Hebrews preaches against the notion that anything outside of faith in Christ is needed to enter heaven.

Many have died on their deathbeds receiving Christ who were never baptized, and yet will be in heaven. The biblical example is the thief on the cross.

[ QUOTE ]
Is baptism a work? No more than professing faith in Christ as your savior. So if you look at it as a work then you actually do two works you profess your faith and you get baptised. In My own humble opinion. I dont agree that it is a work. No more than professing faith in Christ is a work.


[/ QUOTE ]

Baptism becomes a work if it is required to have the righteousness of Christ imputed! Otherwise it is an act of obedience.

Faith can not be a work, as Hebrews lays out in chapter 11. I'm not really following your case here, but faith is a belief in God. Water baptism is a public confession of Christ. Public confession is not required for salvation.

[ QUOTE ]
These are just a small snipit of all the scripture that refers to baptism. But there seems to be a pattern here. There's alot more than public notification going on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Christian faith:

[ QUOTE ]
Water baptism for the Christian symbolises and appropriates our death, burial and resurrection with Christ. It means identification with Christ.

Christian baptism is a dedication to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and to be His disciple. (Mathew 28.19). To be baptised you must do something practical. You must humble yourself. In Christian baptism you must identify yourself with Jesus Christ. As He dedicated himself "thus to fulfil all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15) so must you when you are baptised in water.

Supernatural baptism is from the Holy Spirit, water baptism is described above. The order of baptisms is not consistent in the Bible. It is possible to be baptised in water before being baptised in the Holy Spirit. The reverse is also possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[War5475]

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif ok this is the last one really.

Yes i am Church of Christ. But we are non denominational. Because we have no doctrine. No centralized leadership. We only have the word.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were bound by the old covenent. so no they did not need baptism.

The theif on the cross entered heaven because he died before the reserection. " he was not under the New covenent."

I still dont understand why beliveing in Christ "because it would require prayer." is not considerd a work if baptism is considerd a work. You have to do spiritual and physical things in both. So the arguement that the cross is not enough could be applied to repenting and believing. Saying that just because Christ died it automatically took care of our sins so you dont need to do anything. This is absoulutly not true. But you are still required to SOMTHING. Praying to God is Somthing.


It is possible to be baptised in water before being baptised in the Holy Spirit. The reverse is also possible.


Yes but only one is the norm.


Ok all this said. I really dont see this going anywhere. I see we are both lost on each others points. Thats ok. Maybe one day we can come to a concensus. Just not anytime soon. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

God Bless.

[psaturn]

I was baptized as a Roman Catholic when I was a teeny baby (with large muscles!).

When I was saved, I got confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church and did not feel I needed to get baptized.

Then I became a member of a local church that said to be a member one had to be baptized by immersion as an adult. So I did that in the Colorado River (in the California/Nevada border).

Then I was in a men's retreat, I was so overwhelmed with the message that I got baptized again.

I was in Israel last year. Everyone was given an opportunity to be baptized and I took that once in a life opportunity.

Each time I got baptized, was a symbol of my renewal. The work was done in the spirit and the baptism by immersion was an outward symbol.

Baptism is actually a Jewish practice.

[4 His Glory]

AWESOME DISCUSSION! This is a very dif***lt topic to discuss I feel without being face to face. So props to you guys for so humbly and gracefully sharing your faith with each other.

The question I always ask when this comes up is....Did I choose the Lord or did He choose me?

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I do believe it is possible to receive the Holy Ghost during water baptism (Acts 19).

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, I thought the holy ghost was our concience, which everybody has before being baptised.

If im wrong, what is the holy ghost?

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I do believe it is possible to receive the Holy Ghost during water baptism (Acts 19).

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, I thought the holy ghost was our concience, which everybody has before being baptised.

If im wrong, what is the holy ghost?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just about to head off to classes, but to put it simply - everyone has a body, soul and a spirit. It is through our spirit that we can literally be in touch with the holy spirit/ghost. It can work kind of as a retainer.

The soul is our mind.

I hope that cleared things up a notch!

[jeffrobodean]

I attend a Church of Christ as well - this is our position:
[ QUOTE ]
No creed but Christ.
No name but the divine.
No book but the Bible.
No rule of faith and practice but the New Testament.
Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent.
In faith, unity; in opinion, liberty; in all things, love.


[/ QUOTE ]

To become a member, you have to be baptized (you can transfer an existing membership if you've been baptized into that denomination). We just feel baptism is a personal, conscience decision - and our thoughts on this:
[ QUOTE ]
Have Faith - Christ died for our sins expressing God’s love. We must trust Him as our Savior. John 3:16; Hebrews 11:6; Acts 16:31. Not faith alone. James 2:24

Confess Christ - Let others know of your feelings and convictions about Christ. Matthew 10:32; I John 4:15; Romans 10:9-10; Mark 8:38

Repent - A change of heart and mind. Have a sorrow for our sins and decide to do God’s will. Luke 3:8; Acts 2:38; I Peter 3:11; II Corinthians 7:10; Ephesians 4:23-24

Be Born Again - Born into the Family of God by accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and being buried with him in Christian baptism (immersion). John 3:5; Romans 6:4-11; Acts 2:38; I Peter 3:21; Matthew 28:18-20


[/ QUOTE ]

Baptism is a symbol of your faith, but not a requirement to get into Heaven.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hi War,

Well this is not meant to attack of course you know bro.

I know the typical response to “the thief on the cross” situation, and I brought it up for a reason.

Herein, I believe, exposes the incorrect thinking of salvation preached by those who teach baptismal regeneration….This misconception that we are “saved” a different way than the patriarchs.

We are saved the exact same way those who lived before the gospel were saved…by faith, independent of any sacraments!

God never changes.

The difference between those in the “Old Testament” and “New testament” (I put that in quotes because these are man-made terms, the bible is one book), is that now we gentiles are grafted into the covenant, and atonement is paid allowing imputation of righteousness to occur.

Whereas before Christ, righteousness was imputed because of the belief atonement would come.

The object of faith meriting salvation, however, has never changed at any time. The only difference is that now the atonement is fulfilled, whereas then it was faith in God’s promise of atonement.

That is the only difference; the only means of acquiring God’s Grace, faith, has NEVER changed.

Let’s look at what brought salvation before the gospel:

Psalm 33

21For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name.
22Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.
How did the patriarchs obtain God’s mercy?

They trusted in God’s Holy Name, just as we do.

We trust in The Name of the Lord, just like the Patriarchs.

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



God’s mercy is eternal, it hasn’t changed, nor has the means of obtaining it.

Psalm 103:

2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

This misconception of God’s Grace is why I believe this whole “baptism case” is a valid one to discuss, because those disputing God’s mercy has changed are still bound to the law to receive salvation.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Study all of Hebrews and chapter 11, it verifies all generations are saved by faith in Christ, nothing else.
You stated, I claimed that praying and baptizing is the same thing?
Maybe I misrepresented my point. Faith is the only requirement necessary for salvation. It is the only thing that can bring salvation! Any sacrament done to compliment one’s faith is an act of obedience. If a sacrament is done in addition to faith to receive grace, it has become a work.

To state otherwise is a logical contradiction. Grace is unmerited favor. To add merited favor to the definition is illogical.

Atonement is paid in full, 100%. We do not have to do anything to obtain it.

It is paid in full for all! That is biblical and logical.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But we have to receive it; it is not imputed by default. The sin nature is imputed onto us from Adam by default. We have to receive atonement, but the act of atonement was paid in full on the cross.

How do we receive atonement? Faith in Christ’s
accomplishment…period.

For example, if I sin as a believer, what is the command to receive forgiveness?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why is that valid? Two verses up explains:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Justification by faith through the blood of Christ (Yet if baptism forgives sin, to stay consistent I would need to be baptized every time I sin).

Paul drove this point home, over and over again, that faith is what imputes Grace, by merit of Christ’s sacrifice.

He disputed it with the Jews; the apostles debated it and settled the matter for us in the Book of Acts chapter 15.


For example, we see the very first example of gentiles entering the promises, Cornelius, receiving the baptism of the Spirit, BEFORE water baptism. If this is not a huge illustration of what I am driving home, I do not know what else is.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

If it is not faith and faith alone, then the gentiles can not be grafted in.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This was the first big debate in the early church, whether circumcision, a sacrament, was necessary for salvation. The issue was already debated, decided upon, and settled by the apostles, yet the argument revives itself through each successive generation of denominations. Why? I don’t know. The apostles already laid it out for us very clearly. There is entire chapters dedicated to this concept, it’s not really even an argument in my mind

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 33After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. 35But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
This is backed up by the entire collection of Paul’s letters
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

What promise did the patriarchs have faith in?

The promise of Messiah!

We see that none of the sacraments done under the time before Christ did anything to bring salvation. They were simply symbolic gestures of faith in God’s promises. Paul and the apostles clearly taught, the role of sacraments and rites has not changed just because gentiles are grafted in.

Isaiah 1:11
"The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

God hasn’t changed

Hebrews 10:4
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Christ clearly paid atonement fully on the cross, nothing else is needed:

9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Now we must discuss what is necessary to receive that atonement.

We know those before Christ received it by faith, nothing more.

Hebrews 10:4
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Psalm 50:13
Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?
The sacrifice itself did nothing.

It was their faith that God forgave them that brought atonement.

The sacrifice was prophetic, where as Christ fulfilled the prophecy.

Matthew 5:17
[ The Fulfillment of the Law ] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Animal sacrifices as a means of pleasing God, is comparable to baptismal regeneration atoning for sins.

The sacrifices made by those living before Christ, could easily be made in vain, as was done numerous times, as can be the case in baptism. The reason was that their faith is what justified them, not the sacrifice.

In this manner they turned an act of faith into a work.
This is the same doctrine held by those preaching baptismal regeneration.

They turn a sacrament which demonstrates faith, into a work, by deeming something outside of God’s mercy provided by the cross necessary to be committed to receive grace.
Baptism is a sacrament done before God and the church, to show discipleship, it does not impute righteousness on anyone, nor more than the blood of sacrifices.

Faith justifies, sacraments do not.

Sacraments can be done in vain, faith is genuine or fake.
What about us though? Do we need more than faith in God’s promises to receive salvation?

Let’s look at circumcision to answer.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Much like animal sacrifices, circumcision was symbolic of faith. This was demonstrated as Abraham received imputation of righteousness before circumcision was ordained. Paul showed that circumcision could easily be a work and could mean nothing.

Yet circumcision was vital! Just as baptism is vital. However, you can cut flesh all day, if one’s faith is not real, it means nothing. The same is true of baptism. Salvation is dependent upon faith, not baptism or circumcision.

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

For example:

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Is Christ saying communion brings eternal life?

No, obviously this is a concept as we are not literally eating Him.

We do it in remembrance of His death for our justification.
If we take this literally and do not apply the rest of the bible, we can incorrectly conclude, communion is necessary for salvation.

This is now occurring with baptism. The sad part is, this doctrine gives an incorrect version of what baptism is and deprives the believer. Moreover it adds work based burdens.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Study this next portion carefully, I will highlight the main points, which drive home the fact that faith and faith alone are necessary for salvation:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Christ paid for everything!
Have faith in that, it’s really that simple. Adding to that is adding a work based burden.

Literally I could cite the entire collection of Paul’s writings to back this up. If you really want to test what I am saying, I would advise studying Hebrews and Romans.
Here are just a few other passages:

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[War5475]

Well I will only say this. The spirit put on my heart last night that I have said all that need be said On this Subject. So even though my flesh would love to. I will not speak on this anymore. Im sorry we wernt able to come to an understanding.

But needless quareling is not Benificial To Christ. So i will Humbely bow out of this thread.

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

God bless!

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
The spirit put on my heart last night that I have said all that need be said On this Subject

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good.

[ QUOTE ]
But needless quareling is not Benificial To Christ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, well I don't think it is needless at all. Apparently adding to faith in Christ concerned Paul and the apostles greatly, as they debated it feircely.

<font color="red"> 1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. </font>

See Acts 15.

[jlands]

I don't see this as quarelling. It's a discussion of your faith. These are well thought out answers. That is great.

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont understand why beliveing in Christ "because it would require prayer." is not considerd a work if baptism is considerd a work. You have to do spiritual and physical things in both. So the arguement that the cross is not enough could be applied to repenting and believing. Saying that just because Christ died it automatically took care of our sins so you dont need to do anything. This is absoulutly not true. But you are still required to SOMTHING. Praying to God is Somthing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok all this said. I really dont see this going anywhere. I see we are both lost on each others points. Thats ok. Maybe one day we can come to a concensus. Just not anytime soon

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think you 2 guys are just caught up in the semantics and you are actually in agreement...

cause having faith could be called a "work". But we know nothing we can do makes us worthy of god saving us. And god will not look at works and judge us accordingly as if one work would exalt you more than others.

now If we have faith there should be works, except in very special hypothetical situations. But we are not saved by confessing our sins and repenting, but rather we confess and repent because of our faith.

this is from another thread

[ QUOTE ]
Semantics

basically there are 2 arguments ive seen, correct me if im wrong of course

1. saved by works, ( You are saved by how you lived your life as a christian ), and you lived your life as a christian, because of your faith

2. saved by faith, but faith without works is dead
-- so your saved because yo believe , but then you want to live the way god wants you to. so you will want to do "works" of god

[/ QUOTE ]

basically the same message but it sounds different

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just about to head off to classes, but to put it simply - everyone has a body, soul and a spirit. It is through our spirit that we can literally be in touch with the holy spirit/ghost. It can work kind of as a retainer.



[/ QUOTE ]

wow dude I just realized that although I spent many hours reading in depth bible studies here, There are some basic things in christianity I dont understand... :/

so what is the spirit, what is the soul, and what is the difference ?

[ QUOTE ]

The soul is our mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
wait a sec, my brain, is synonomy's for soul?

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey bro, read my post, one thing at a time too. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't want to go off on too many rabbit trails.

[psaturn]

Kokokolo

I understand your challenge in understanding the difference between soul and spirit.

I had that challenge for years !

Soul encompasses the intellect (mind), the emotions and the will.

The spirit encompasses the wisdom, conscience and communion (fellowship).

You know how the conscience wars with the will and emotions? Then you see the struggle that your inner being has.

When we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then the spirit within us was resurrected, or born again, so our spirit could commune with the Spirit of God.

The soul is still fallen, and it has to be ruled and controlled by the Spirit of God to please God. But you still have to exercise the will to follow God.

That is the best way I can explain to you the difference between soul and spirit.

Also, note that spirit does not mean all good either. There is the evil spirits and unclean spirits. So not everything in spiritual realm is holy.

Only what comes from God is holy. What is coming from everything else is unholy.

[kokokolo]

[ QUOTE ]
When we accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then the spirit within us was resurrected, or born again, so our spirit could commune with the Spirit of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

and this is the holy ghost kinda?

[psaturn]

Holy Spirit is who raised Jesus from the dead.

Holy Spirit is who raises our spirit from the dead when we accept Christ Jesus as Saviour and Lord and are born again.

Holy Spirit is part of the triune God and so our spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Ghost.

In Hebrew it would be Ruach Khadesh.

[10forty2]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting that this should be brought up in this discussion. We were just talking about this in Sunday School last Sunday. I am Southern Baptist and as such our theology is in the belief of submersion as the symbol of acceptance of Christ as our Lord and Savior. Baptism is also "required" to become a voting member of the church.

Notice I said "SYMBOL." I have never been taught that I would not go to heaven if I wasn't baptised and I do not believe that it is a requirement for salvation.

Getting back to our Sunday School discussion.... it was brought out in reference to the above quoted verse that we must be reborn. This is what Nicodemus was having a hard time understanding. He couldn't understand how a human being could be reborn. Jesus explained that we must be born of water and of the spirit before we could experience salvation. The "..born of water" part is probably referring to the original human birth or the first birth. Remember how that happens? We float in inside our mother's womb for the gestation period and we are born once the water breaks. (Yeah, I know that's somewhat simplified, but it suffices for this discussion.)

The second birth Jesus refers to is the spiritual birth that comes from acceptance of Christ as our Savior and the renewed, eternal life we receive as a result.

I really don't think that He is saying that we MUST be baptised to be saved.

I DO think that baptism is a natural progression of the Christian's life, but not absolutely necessary for salvation and entrance into heaven.

[jeffrobodean]

Well said 1042

[Alcatraz]

Its pretty easy,

no faith, no salvation.

no works(sacrements), but with faith, prob harder time of Judgement.

IF it was soley on faith alone, there would be no scriptures on works. (Please remember that the bible does not contain everything. It even says it itself)

We have just and merciful god, but we also have things he asked of us.

SALVATION IS A WORK IN PROGRESS.

Ill never forget the time I first realized that mass(catholic) is a reanactment of the last supper. The amazing feeling I had. ITS NOT BEING BORN AGAIN...but realizing what was inside of me all along. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif