Secularism?

[War5475]

Has there ever been anything Good that has come from Secularism? While i was working out this just popped in my head. I was trying to think of a single thing that came from this that was good.

I honestly just cant think of one. What do you guys think?

[l0stsheep]

Well, the idea of secularism(The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education) played a big role in the formation of the principle of "seperation of church and state" in the U.S.

So, I guess that's good.

[War5475]

yes but that could be argued from both sides. Many people dont feel that seperation of church and state is a good thing.

SO thats not a clear cut benifit.

[Grunt11B]

you asked in your post "Has there ever been anything Good that has come from Secularism", not if seperation of church and state is arguable. our secular govt. By not meddling in the affirs of religion has allowed a diverse and rich religous environment to thrive. I think thats very good!

[XenoWang]

There is a fine line between the idea of separation of church and state and secularism as it exists in the rest of society. I support the former and have no problem with people's rights to exercise the latter.

In general I don't like the question. If we're talking benefit/utility to society as a whole, I find it a bit irrelevant to argue at it from a black and white perspective of religion vs. secularism. Religion is both a personal and communal experience for sure, but that doesn't mean utility cannot arise from inherently non-religious practices or ideas, far from it.

[War5475]

Let me help you guys out real quick

this is what i meant.

Main Entry: sec·u·lar·ism
Pronunciation: 'se-ky&-l&-"ri-z&m
Function: noun
: indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

Seperation of church and state is only a very small aspect of the word secularism.

I may not agree with separation of chuch and state. Because how most people define the alternative to Seperation of church and state as a situation arising that would limit religious freedom. I dont belive this would be the case myselft, But that is another subject.

My Question is. Since secularism rejects God, and all his ideas of laws and right and wrong. Then that means that everything is derived from man. With such an imperfect system i can see why there has not been many good things that have come from it.

I realise that in america we have been conditioned to think of Secularism as a completly different thing than what it really is. My question is derived from the actual defintion of the word What it truly means.

[XenoWang]

Again, I still think this is a bad argument. To say little good has come from secular thought is to say that all music, literature, art, science (which is inherently secular) that does not acknowledge God or religion offers little benefit to our society. I would wholly disagree with this statement.

It seems to me that you're trying to draw the issue of morality into a lot of issues in which they have little or nothing to do with each other. If you're going to argue about man-made laws vs. God's law, that's another issue. The idea of government and separation of church and state is more in line with what you're dealing with, IMO (despite the fact that you don't seem to think so, or perhaps I'm still reading you incorrectly). But as it stands, what I mentioned really has little to do with the fact that it is secular or not- it just is.

[TForce]

Aren't we all forgetting something here? Doesn't it say somewhere that the law of the land is part of God's law? In that case, secularism is part of religion.

[l0stsheep]

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Again, I still think this is a bad argument. To say little good has come from secular thought is to say that all music, literature, art, science (which is inherently secular) that does not acknowledge God or religion offers little benefit to our society. I would wholly disagree with this statement.

It seems to me that you're trying to draw the issue of morality into a lot of issues in which they have little or nothing to do with each other. If you're going to argue about man-made laws vs. God's law, that's another issue. The idea of government and separation of church and state is more in line with what you're dealing with, IMO (despite the fact that you don't seem to think so, or perhaps I'm still reading you incorrectly). But as it stands, what I mentioned really has little to do with the fact that it is secular or not- it just is.

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Good call xeno! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[kokokolo]

depnds what you define as " good " I think in a way you asking if anything godly came fomr the view of rejecting god. And no I dont think anything good came from secularism that could not have came about without it. hmmmmm?

One thing, if it werent for the secularism of people believing in evolution we may not have ever gotten all the evidence to show that it doesnt make sense...

[War5475]

Ha thats a good one Kokokolo So there is somehting good that has come from it.

See i knew we could find one if we thought long enough.

and most of the earliest music came from praising God so I dont see how rejecting GOD helped music and literiture.

[kokokolo]

My friend who doesnt believe in god, eventually decided that seing as there is no god, but the commandments help society so much, and make people live better lives and are happier because of it, that thy get to believe their life has meaning and not think about it anymore, admitted that It must have been written by the smartest person alive at the time...

It is interesting how much better our society is because of the bible, even If you would like to think there is no god.

If people for the last 6,000 years all thought evolution was correct from the beginning, society as we know it couldnt even exist

[War5475]

Yea you can see how things like abortion are allowed to exist because you make these imaginary lines between right and wrong.

Just what ever someone wants to do they use some imaginary border line to say you can do it if its this but not if its that.

Like how we say at 18 your considerd an adult. can serve in the military and the like. But under Gods law you wernt really considerd a man until age 20 then you could be in the military. and only if you had been married for a awile or were single. but if you were reasentl married you couldnt be in the military cause you were expected to take care of and be with your family.

Just like how you can only be married at certain ages. certain things are ok or against the law. All are just imaginary lines. That have no real basis for why. In the 1800's its ok to be married at age 13 but not in the year 2000 but yet a 13 year old is much more mature now then they were back then.

I dont know its just funny Its like how you can go to jail because you steal money. but if you malest a child. They do their best to keep you out of jail because they cant possibly build enough jails or pay to house all the inmates they would have if they cracked down on it. 500,000 in the last 7 years and thats just because they only started makeing people register in the last 7 years. So in another 7 years we will have over a million malesters on the books and as you know there is a terrible tendancy for people who grew up being malested will continue to do it to others. So we will probably have many many more than a million.

but because the Government knows that it cant put all of its citizens in jail, because there would be no one to pay taxes, they turn their heads and ignore it. Its just funny what the Government considers important. what they dont.

[XenoWang]

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most of the earliest music came from praising God

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Please elaborate.

Anyways, on law. While I believe in the Bible and I believe God's law to be supreme, I disagree with the contention that man cannot make effective, righteous laws. Granted, as it is man-made, there are bound to be imperfections but from a philosophical point of view, righteous law is not impossible without God.

As for abortion, it's not an issue of "imaginary lines" between right and wrong. That's a horrible oversimplification of the problem. Come on now...

As for your molestation example, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. So government and beaurecratic failures occur. What does this have to do with secularism?

[War5475]

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As for abortion, it's not an issue of "imaginary lines" between right and wrong. That's a horrible oversimplification of the problem. Come on now...

How is this an over simplification. They draw an imaginary line and say that to kill a baby at a certain stage is ok. But anthing after this imaginary line is murder.

Tell me exactly how this is over simplified is this not the way the law is written?

As for your molestation example, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. So government and beaurecratic failures occur. What does this have to do with secularism?

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If we had religiously minded Leaders they would process the laws that are already on the books and send these people to jail. and then they would take steps to curb the phenomina.

[War5475]

also about music.

MUSIC MANUSCRIPTS
Although music-making was one of Man's earliest activities, the bulk of this music has not survived because there was no way to write it down. Attempts to devise a system of musical notation were made by various civilizations. The earliest known example accompanies an Old Babylonian hymn dating from the twentieth century BC. The Ancient Greeks had a system of notation but its decipherment is uncertain. No notation was known in Western Europe before the ninth century, when Italian and French church musicians pioneered the use of symbols to indicate pitches - a system that eventually grew into modern notation.

[War5475]

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Anyways, on law. While I believe in the Bible and I believe God's law to be supreme, I disagree with the contention that man cannot make effective, righteous laws. Granted, as it is man-made, there are bound to be imperfections but from a philosophical point of view, righteous law is not impossible without God.



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Well the Greeks and Romans where the greatest law givers to the world that is unquestionable. What one can garner from thier abliltys at law giving and governing is that they ultimatly failed. Their greatest endevors all failed in the end. Is this the example we want to follow? Do we want a society that is so imoral? Not me. And this is exactly where we are headed. And when we fade into history some one else will have this same discousion about us.

[XenoWang]

I would contend that the fall of most civilizations and governments is not whether they are secular or not but due to political intrigue, financial failings, and foreign relations.

[War5475]

Amos 6:14


For, behold, I will raise up against you a nation, house of Israel," says Yahweh, the God of Armies; "and they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath to the brook of the Arabah."


Ezekiel 34:29


I will raise up to them a plantation for renown, and they shall be no more consumed with famine in the land, neither bear the shame of the nations any more. (WEB)

Jeremiah 51: I Will Raise Up Against Babylon


Jer 51:1 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind

Im sorry but i have to hole hardedly disagree with you. As we study the old testament especially we see that God uses countrys as his tool. He raises his countrys up and he tears them down. He uses wicked countrys to Grind down his people to make them turn to him for help. I never want to be on the wrong side of that. I will allways wish my Country to be on Gods side. If that means i wont be as rich. SO be it. If that means that some of my freinds dont get to go out and do some of the things the flesh wants to do So be it.

[l0stsheep]

1) I think we know that through Christ only GOOD things come. And through Him we can do all things. If a coutnry WERE to keep its focus on Him, then the country would flourish. And through Christ relationships, art, and other things in life will be GOOD as well.

2) But, man is also capable of doing some things by himself. You CAN have a relationship that will be loving without CHrist(I saw my grandparents this past sunday who have been together for over 60 years and are as cute as newlyweds and very much in love) And a country can govern itself rightly (the code of hamurabi) and music(beethoven, excluding his 9th symphony) and art(rembrandt, van gogh, picasso...) can flourish as well.

[War5475]

ok so in love we can be good and in creativity of arts, and im sure literature. ok well those seem like good things.....

I will have to ponder this....