2 million warriors in one place at the same time

[TForce]

This is rather disturbing. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, even though I have caught myself on occasion venting frustration on a perceived flaw in the psychology of Islam. I am, by no means, an expert on it, so I don't like to make accusations, but it is really irritating to see this type of irresponsibility on such a grand scale going on in front of 2 million people. Sticking up for the civil rights of Palestinians is one thing, insisting on an Islamic form of law in Iraq is perfectly understandable, but fomenting hate and revenge in front of 2 million people at the Hajj is completely uncalled for, is outright lunacy. Just who is running the show there? Obviously it is not the royal family. With this type of leadership going on, progress is a hopeless endeavor. Our president has plainly stated on numerous occasions that our position is to respect Islam as a peaceful religion and that the actions of a few should not warrant punishment of the many. Any good Moslem should know that Bin Laden had it coming, that Saddam Hussein had it coming, but this is really out of hand. Perhaps this is the type of leadership that has caused so much strife, but then when you have stuff like Abu Graib going on, what do you expect? It is sad to see this caliph letting himself play right into the hands of Bin Laden.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060109/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_hajj

MOUNT ARAFAT, Saudi Arabia - More than 2 million Muslim pilgrims from 178 countries prayed for salvation Monday at Mount Arafat, Islam's most sacred site, where Saudi Arabia's top cleric declared the West was conducting a "war against our creed."

With hands raised to heaven, the mass of pilgrims converged on the mount, not far from Mecca and the site of the last sermon by Islam's 7th century prophet Muhammad three months before he died in 632.

A day earlier, pilgrims from across the globe trekked eight miles through the nearby valley of Mina for the start of rituals, which reached their climax Monday. As they walked under the blistering sun, the crowd chanted "Labaik Alluhumma Labaik!" ("We are coming answering your call, God!")

Many pilgrims cried as they offered prayers — overcome with emotion during what is for most a once-in-a-lifetime journey to their faith's most holy places, a pilgrimage they believe cleanses them of sin.

Islam requires that all Muslims who are financially and physically able make the hajj at least once.

Sheik Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik, the kingdom's grand mufti, said Muslims faced critical challenges, among them accusations of terrorism and human rights abuses and calls for revisions in their school textbooks.

"Oh, Muslim nation, there is a war against of our creed, against our culture under the pretext of fighting terrorism. We should stand firm and united in protecting our religion," he said, speaking at a mosque on the plain of Mount Arafat.

"Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning. But the soldiers of God will be victorious," said al-Sheik, the Saudi kingdom's top religious authority.

The faithful called out: "Amen!"

While pilgrims continued their prayers outside the mosque, many held out hands to help others climb the mount, a rugged hill. Men and women, otherwise not allowed to mix in the conservative kingdom, jostled against one another.

At the top, the pilgrims pushed and shoved to get near enough to embrace a sacred pillar. Some paused to photograph the occasion.

"Oh God, I am your obedient servant come to you to ask forgiveness," Moroccan pilgrim Abdull Wahid Boughriba said in a tearful prayer.

Helicopters hovered above the plain — dotted by pilgrims all the way from Mecca to the base of the mount — to guard against the tragedies, mainly stampedes, that have marred the hajj in past years.

Two years ago, 244 people were trampled to death when the crowd panicked during the ritual stoning of the devil, which happens Tuesday.

Saudi authorities, meanwhile, replaced the cover of the Kaba with a new one Monday, an annual ritual at Mecca's Great Mosque. The black cover, called Kiswa, is made of about 658 square yards of silk weighing 1,475 pounds and embroidered with 33 pounds of gold thread. The new Kiswa cost $4.7 million.

The old one is usually cut into pieces and given to Muslim dignitaries visiting the kingdom.

The Kaba, the huge cube-like edifice, is considered the focal point of the hajj. It also serves as the Qibla, or center of the Islamic world toward which all Muslims turn in prayer.

The Quran declares the Kaba was the first place of worship designated by God. Muslims believe that the Kaba was built by Abraham on the foundations of an earlier temple built by Adam, the progenitor of all mankind.

[ryancostill]

I dont think this is particularly worrying. They have not encouraged violence nor terrorism. They have merely vowed to defend their religion against attacks on it. They have not said for this to be done in a violent way however, who's to say they didnt mean a non-violent, verbal, debating way of defending their religion. I think you have just inferred violence yourself. in this article the muslim leaders speeches have not mentioned or denounced the USA or G W Bush. Nor have the muslim clerics specifically mentioned the war in Afghanistan or Iraq as attacks on Islam. Again you may have just inferred that yourself. In my opinion they were probably referring to the poor light that many muslims are being painted in western society: that they are all mad fundamentalist muslims and terrorists, which of course is not true and which is something they have a right to defend themselves against, in my opinion.

[ryancostill]

Also, i dont see why you had to refer to the Muslims as "warriors"! they are there to worship, praise their lord, and ask for forgiveness. What makes them warriors!??

When hundreds of thousands of catholics flooded to the vatican in the final days of Pope John Paul, were these people also millions of warriors in one place at the same time??

Anyway, interesting article to post but I think you are inferring a little too much into it. I hope non of my points seems at all disrespectful, you are very entitled to your opinion I just wanted to get another viewpoint across. As far as I can see its just a bunch of very devoted, very religious people praising their lord and worrying about the impression others have of their religion.

[shtanga]

"Islam is a peaceful religion"

This is the biggest deception of our days if people believe it. Islam is far from a peaceful religion. The ones that are causing all the problems, that are labeled as hi-jacking the religion, are actually the ones reading the Koran and following it.

[jeffrobodean]

At one time, the Crusades were pretty bloody, if I recall my history correctly.
All religious organizations can be looked at from any angle and judged based upon the actions of a few.
I think Ryan has adequately and appropriately addressed the posting and that article.
If other groups truly thought that this was an army of two million warriors advocating violence and terrorism - I imagine it would be a good place to drop a bomb and wipe out a HUGE bulk of your enemies. I don't find the article disturbing either. In my worship services, we advocate fighting against the secular views that want to take Christianity out of Christmas, the government, etc. No one states that we are 1000 warriors advocating violence every Sunday.

[JTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
"Islam is a peaceful religion"

This is the biggest deception of our days if people believe it. Islam is far from a peaceful religion. The ones that are causing all the problems, that are labeled as hi-jacking the religion, are actually the ones reading the Koran and following it.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are people that pervert the religion of Islam. Much like the abortion doctor killers that say the Bible told them to and gave them the authority. These are fanatics pure and simple.

[ryancostill]

[ QUOTE ]
In my worship services, we advocate fighting against the secular views that want to take Christianity out of Christmas, the government, etc. No one states that we are 1000 warriors advocating violence every Sunday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great example.

[psaturn]

Ryan and Jeff...

Screaming death to Israel and death to USA ...

that sounds pretty violent to me.

And the comparison made of the Youth Day with the Pope, did the Catholic youths scream "Death to Saudi Arabia! Death to Iran!"


Did they do that ? NOPE.

(remember that there were Catholics in those lands and they were annihilated or forced to be Muslims).

[ryancostill]

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan and Jeff...

Screaming death to Israel and death to USA ...

that sounds pretty violent to me.

And the comparison made of the Youth Day with the Pope, did the Catholic youths scream "Death to Saudi Arabia! Death to Iran!"


Did they do that ? NOPE.

(remember that there were Catholics in those lands and they were annihilated or forced to be Muslims).

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah ps, hang on a second there bro. In the article that was originally posted, which is what we are discussing here, says nothing about anybody screaming "death to israel" or "death to USA". Where have you gotten that impression from? Have you read the article that was posted?

[shtanga]

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan and Jeff...

Screaming death to Israel and death to USA ...

that sounds pretty violent to me.

And the comparison made of the Youth Day with the Pope, did the Catholic youths scream "Death to Saudi Arabia! Death to Iran!"


Did they do that ? NOPE.

(remember that there were Catholics in those lands and they were annihilated or forced to be Muslims).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. since 9-11 there has been such a push to turn Islam into a peaceful religion. Some people are buying it hook, line and sinker in the name of being Politically correct.

please understand, I am not agianst PEOPLE who practice Islam, they need the saving grace of Jesus Chrst, but the religion as a whole is very violent....not just a few extremist, it is the roots of the religion.

[ryancostill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ryan and Jeff...

Screaming death to Israel and death to USA ...

that sounds pretty violent to me.

And the comparison made of the Youth Day with the Pope, did the Catholic youths scream "Death to Saudi Arabia! Death to Iran!"


Did they do that ? NOPE.

(remember that there were Catholics in those lands and they were annihilated or forced to be Muslims).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. since 9-11 there has been such a push to turn Islam into a peaceful religion. Some people are buying it hook, line and sinker in the name of being Politically correct.

please understand, I am not agianst PEOPLE who practice Islam, they need the saving grace of Jesus Chrst, but the religion as a whole is very violent....not just a few extremist, it is the roots of the religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys lets get back on track here. You are debating viewpoints which have nothing to do with the original post. Read the article and if you have a direct comment relating to the article post it. If you have a different comment about islam you should probably start a new thread. PS and shtanga your opinions are your own and you are entitled to them and I certainly take them on board but you seem to be making a general discussion on islam rather than actually discussing the article posted.

[jeffrobodean]

EXACTLY!
I read nothing in that post that stated Death to ANYONE.
I was merely commenting on the post and the original poster's attitude about the article. The attitude posted and the article posted did not seem to match what I was reading.
I'll be more than happy to argue ISLAM and Terrorism on a different thread.

[psaturn]

Ryan and Jeff,

You are right, that in that article it did not mention about that. My apologies.

I got the death chant from this source: http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=991

1/9/2006 Clip No. 991

Iranian Pilgrims in Mecca Shout "Death to America, the Great Satan" in an Anti-American Rally

Following are excerpts from a rally of Iranian pilgrims in Mecca, aired on Channel 1, Iranian TV, and on Al-'Alam TV, on January 9, 2006.

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: (Chopped off) from the land of the believers.

Crowd: From the land of the believers.

Man: The Audience will now split into two groups: One group will settle the score with America, and the other will settle the score with Israel. This group now: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

[TForce]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope non of my points seems at all disrespectful, you are very entitled to your opinion I just wanted to get another viewpoint across. As far as I can see its just a bunch of very devoted, very religious people praising their lord and worrying about the impression others have of their religion.



[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I see where you are coming from. It was a simple knee-jerk reaction. I am sure most Moslems would like to put the events of post-911 behind them. However, I don't see the West portraying Islam in this light. Some might like to use the plight of enemy combatants as an excuse to make something out of it, some might like to use the details of the Patriot Act to make something out of it, some might like to use the term "axis of evil" to make something out of it, but I don't see the West making a holy war out of it.

[psaturn]

And to answer the question, yes I did read that original Yahoo article the first time it came out, and I mixed in with the translated Iranian and Arabic news reports...so that is why the mix up.

When I read the news, I like to see what is behind the scenes.

About the anti abortionists, there had been some people that had been violent, but you can number them with the fingers of your hands. But with the extremist violent Muslims that usurp the majority of the peace loving Muslims, you cannot count them with the number of the fingers in your hands.

Let us assume this. The muslim population number about 1 billion is one estimate I heard. Let us say that the extremist are just very small numbers, small fraction. Let us say 1/10 of one percent of that one billion.

Count on your calculator what is 1/10 of 1 % of 1 BILLION.

And that is the minimum potential number of extremist muslims that are usurping the religion of the peaceful Muslims.

The same way with the extremist Jews. There are those who are violent and they could be dangerous. I am quite aware of them. One actually shot in a bus full of Arabs in an Arab neighborhood in Israel. I am so glad that the nation of Israel did not accord any honor to that soldier who murdered innocents. Proper burial was not accorded to that soldier. The nation rejected the action of that soldier and considered him a traitor and a murderer.

[shtanga]

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan and Jeff,

You are right, that in that article it did not mention about that. My apologies.

I got the death chant from this source: http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=991

1/9/2006 Clip No. 991

Iranian Pilgrims in Mecca Shout "Death to America, the Great Satan" in an Anti-American Rally

Following are excerpts from a rally of Iranian pilgrims in Mecca, aired on Channel 1, Iranian TV, and on Al-'Alam TV, on January 9, 2006.

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: (Chopped off) from the land of the believers.

Crowd: From the land of the believers.

Man: The Audience will now split into two groups: One group will settle the score with America, and the other will settle the score with Israel. This group now: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't be right. How could two million, peace loving people do something like this. It has to be propoganda from the extreme right.

Excuse the sarcasm, please.

[TForce]

Hopefully, all the pilgrims from America were at a different rally where they were promoting the joys of freedom.

[ryancostill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ryan and Jeff,

You are right, that in that article it did not mention about that. My apologies.

I got the death chant from this source: http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=991

1/9/2006 Clip No. 991

Iranian Pilgrims in Mecca Shout "Death to America, the Great Satan" in an Anti-American Rally

Following are excerpts from a rally of Iranian pilgrims in Mecca, aired on Channel 1, Iranian TV, and on Al-'Alam TV, on January 9, 2006.

Crowd: Israel is the enemy of Allah.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Crowd: May the hands of the infidels be chopped off.

Man: (Chopped off) from the land of the believers.

Crowd: From the land of the believers.

Man: The Audience will now split into two groups: One group will settle the score with America, and the other will settle the score with Israel. This group now: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to Israel!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to America!

Man: Death to America!

Crowd: Death to Israel! Death to America! Death to Israel!

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't be right. How could two million, peace loving people do something like this. It has to be propoganda from the extreme right.

Excuse the sarcasm, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again we are getting articles mixed up. The original article posted mentioned 2 million people, but no hate mongering toward the USA ot the Western world was mentioned in that article.

The second article posted by Psaturn mentions the hate chants but does not mention 2 million people attending/shouting.

Read the thread properly people!! 2 million people WERE NOT gathered shouting anti-american, violent slogans!! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jeffrobodean]

Yes,
The second source there I didn't read any further into it than here, so I did not post an opinion on it. If it is from the SAME rally - 2million chanting that - then yes, it is scary.
if it is a different group totally as Ryan has stated, then start a new thread because this discussion has gone on a rather strong tangent.

Based upon the facts as posted in the first, or the facts posted in the second, I still have a hard time stereotyping an entire group of people based upon the convictions of a few.

There are a bunch of psycho white supremacist groups who hold the bible in their right hands claiming to be Christians at the same time. I might live in a red neck town, but I would hate to be typed into THAT. There ARE a lot of haters out there.

There are a lot of Churches out there now who are advocating the homosexual lifestyle and allowing them to believe that they are saved through Christ. Though I do not believe this and follow what the bible states - does not mean that I am a hater, bigot, racist or homophobe or whatever you want to call me. Unfortunately, America (mostly the secular mainstream) has painted us Christians in such a light.
How often have you heard the media refer to us Christians as far right radicals? I am sure that I would find a lot of far left liberals in my congregation. Though I am conservative, I do not like to be painted as a far right radical nut bag that the media portrays.

All I am stating is that we can't take such a broad brushed view of others - especially based upon the original posting and intent of this thread.

[psaturn]

Jeff

I am so glad you have such an even handed view and try to look at others through that prism.

I wish others would have that kind of desire to see the way you do.

I sorta lean towards the middle right. I do have compassion towards the poor, the defenseless, the persecuted, the gays, the transexuals, the runaways, the ladies of the night...

Just that I do not believe in a secular government to have the ability to erase poverty and to correct moral problems such as alternative sexual lifestyles or another lifestyles.

In terms of the death chant, you are right that it was not all 2 million that attended the hajj that screamed that. I just happened to mix up the Yahoo article about the 2 million there who feel persecuted by the West and that news report that a group of Iranians (it was not mentioned how many) who screamed death to America and Israel. Remember, this death chant was broadcast in Iran and in Arabic news and was never shown in the Western media. If you saw the Arabic media and how the way they consistently portray us in America and in the Western world, all your hairs would just stand up. The Arabic news media would make the Fox News sound like an extreme liberal news. And you would understand why several folks would be willing to wear bomb vests or belts and destroy Western interests.

MEMRI translates Arabic programs and news that would not otherwise be known by the rest who do not know Arabic.

[jeffrobodean]

I know where you are coming from psaturn.
It is extremely unfortunate that I will never, and I mean never - get to experience the awesome thrill of walking where Jesus did. I love Him and know I will be with Hhim when I leave Earth, but I don't want to be pressing the issue by going in a part of the world where so many people hate us and would like to kill us for no other reason. I would love to visit Bethlehem and Calvary. But I won't.
I know the media over there perpetuates the hatred and I have heard from other Arabic friends that what the news translates on TV isn't necessarily what the writing actually states. It is scary.
What I sometimes worry about is what happens when because of those few (or many - it's all relative) Islamic or Moslem extremists change the thinking of enough Americans that we become like them.
There are enough hate groups in America - and we tend to get on them about how wrong it is to hate those "other" groups that are within our own culture(African Americans, Gay, Asian Americans, etc) - I'm afraid that our ethnocentric viewpoint may change to "look the other way" when hate crimes start happening to those "outside" our culture.
It may not be on the same scale, but I bet if you know or wish to speak to a Japanese American who lived in America, especially the West Coast America after Pearl Harbor was bombed...I bet they have some pretty scary stories to tell of what happened to them and how they were treated and felt back then.

[psaturn]

Jeff,

I don't know why you cannot ever go places where Jesus walked. I did that last year in May and reported here direct from Israel !

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/fav...amp;postmarker= (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=15163&F_Board=chat&Thread =1091400&partnumber=&postmarker=)

Not sure if that link works. The title of the thread is "Shalom from Israel".

I even got baptized at the River of Jordan, walked on ancient walkways in Jerusalem that was dated during the time of Christ, went to Tiberias at the shore of the Sea of Galilee and even went on a boat that is supposed to be a replica of what Peter and John used to fish. I went to Jaffa (Joppa) an ancient seaport where Jonah sailed from, where Peter had his vision of the sheet from Heaven, we went to a spot in Jerusalem where we could view the little town of Bethlehem. We went to the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem and saw Golgotha where Jesus was crucified (which is now an Islamic cemetery). We went to Ein Gedi where David fled from Saul and hid in its caves. We went to the Dead Sea (the Eastern Sea) where Sodom and Gomorrah was located, we went to Haifa and Mt Carmel...

And we were obvious as Americans, and they welcomed us with open arms and with smile, whether it was the Israeli soldiers, the Druze villagers, the Arab merchants...

We went to an Arabic church in Haifa complete with worship in Arabic and reading of the Bible in Arabic. The assistant pastor's name is Osama !!! The Arabic pastor took me and my friend to the best Shawarma in all the land of Israel ! That meant taking us to an Arabic neighborhood in Haifa in the dark of the night. I did notice that people were a little bit suspicious and even the Arabic pastor was whispering to us while we were eating shawarma. I thought that was interesting.

Otherwise, we were quite free to do what we were set to do in Israel. We raised hands, we blew shofars, we prayed loudly, we cast bread upon the waters, we swam in the Dead Sea, we got wet at the River of Jordan, we placed prayers on piece of paper and placed in the crevices of the rocks in the holiest site of all Judaism, the Western Wall.

[jeffrobodean]

Wow psat - I am truly envious. I would love to experience that - especially getting baptized in the Jordan. It sounds like an experience of a lifetime.

[psaturn]

Jeff,

To me, praying at the Western Wall was the experience of a lifetime. Praying at the site where the Temple once was above it. The Temple where Jesus was discussing and teaching the elders and teachers and scribes at the age of 12.

The place where he kicked out the moneychangers.

There was such a powerful presence at that site, it just overwhelmed and and I could not stop crying.

[jeffrobodean]

I should probably start another thread, but this is loosely related I guess. I've passed this magazine in the break room here at work several times without opening it up, so I finally did today. It's actually a brochure from a project that the Souther Poverty Law Center did. "Ten Ways to Fight Hate" it's called. I think we can all learn from it. Here's a quick bit of interesting facts inside the front cover:
Somewhere in America ...
Every Hour someone commits a hate crime
Every Day at least eight blacks, four gays or lesbians, two Jews, two whites and one Latino become hate crime victims.
Every Week a cross is burned.

That's scary.
I wonder if they are considering Islamics and/or Moslems in with the stats on Jews? I wonder how they are affected.
It also states nothing on hate crimes based upon religious affiliation only - in that case, I bet Christians would have a large number in that list.

[Hooah101]

i went on a pilgrimage to Israel before too psaturn. It was an experience of a lifetime and I can't wait to go back!

[TForce]

In defense of the many peace-loving Moslems out there, I should point out (to myself included) that there are plenty of people out there with terrorist mindsets who come from every other walk of life. There were roughly 1,000,000 cases of aggravated assault in 2003 in the U.S. alone. We will just have to see what happens when all of these, who listened to this caliph, come back to the U.S. I just saw this big billboard on the freeway which says "Know the Real Islam".

[psaturn]

Jeff

I served for two terms as the Human Rights Commissioner for my city and I had been trained by Anti Defamation League in the hate crimes and the laws related to them.

I did note that the Anti Defamation League had been tracking many "Christian" related hate groups, which are Whites only like the KKK. I put them in quote marks as I do not consider them Christians. During the training and the presentation made with the public, nothing was mentioned of the Nation of Islam which is against Jews and Christians anyhow and we commented to them about that. And now we have greater numbers of Islamic related hate groups but of course it is not politically correct to mention them. "Christian" related hate groups, that is okay to mention. It was amazing how many groups they found. Groups I never heard of.

I would like the classification and naming of hate groups to be more evenhanded and using common sense and not motivated by politics.

[Imy85]

[ QUOTE ]
If you saw the Arabic media and how the way they consistently portray us in America and in the Western world, all your hairs would just stand up. The Arabic news media would make the Fox News sound like an extreme liberal news. And you would understand why several folks would be willing to wear bomb vests or belts and destroy Western interests.



[/ QUOTE ]

It is simply ludicrous that you think terrorists carry out attacks because of the Arab media.

Palestine
Afghanistan
Iraq
Bosnia
Chechnya
Al-Aqsa mosque, may all just have something to do with it. Possibly.


The reason I stopped posting here is because I know it is absolutely futile. There are people here who have deep-seated hatred for others, but will justify their hatred till they are blue in the face, and label it as something else. There's nothing I can do or say to convince those who are so blinkered and single-minded in their views.

I don't wish to trigger another debate. I just leave those individuals to their own hatred and bigotry.

I thank the people who are just in their judgement, and are interested more in truth than their own opinion.

[kokokolo]

hate crimes and racism is utter lack of logic, There was someone I worked with once who was complaining about how all these mexicans and blacks ( he used different words for both) were getting good jobs now and they dont deserve them... Im like, but its just the color of thier skin ?!?!