Fat Burning Supplements- ****Please read before posting questions about fat burning supplements

[Big_T]

What is the best supliment? It needs to be ephedra free because I have too much loss of sleep while using it. I was thinking something in the line of Hydroxycut or Ripped Fuel. Has anyone had success with one of these or something like it?

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[getnbgr]

^ heh heh GLV stack and lotsa Cardio.... Fat burning pills get a big thumbs down.... diet and cardio.... ditto on the articles

[Big_T]

I trying to do well with eating and am improving every week with my diet. I work nights and am busy as hell with it so it gets hard to get good nutrition while I am working. I have been trying some lower in calories soups and other types of healthier things. I do 30 min at least 3x a week as far as cardio is concerned. I also lift really hard 3x a week.
I am taking Ripped Fuel right now. Among that I am taking a multi vitamin, mag/zinc/calcuim supplement, and a vitamin C supplement daily.


I guess I really like these sorts of pills because they give you a boost of energy. I like taking them before a work out and before work. Work can get really crazy for me and I don't always get a ton of sleep so it can be a nice pick me up for that.

BTW, thanks for all the quick in put!

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[Big_T]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you aren't taking the calcium with the zinc. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif They fight for absorbtion. Replace the Ripped Fuel with whey protein and read the Window of Opportunity article under the Nutrition tab.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am taking whey after each workout. I just started doing this.


I will have to take a look at some of the articles. I have been paging through a lot of them but have not taken the time to read some of the longer ones.
Thanks again for the input. I was just on another forum somewhere were the only response was "read though the 80000 pages of articles." Not even a clue as to what articles or even some quick advice. THANKS!

[jwald98]

there are lots of vitamins that help with digestion and metaboism- acadohilous I know does, chromium, calcium, bitter orage extract (not in diet pill form) and greens, water, keep away from sodium that makes you retain water and look fat bladda bladda blah

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[jwald98]

right, of course you need sodium, but not a whole lot in every meal, I mean do you use soy sauce? All 900+ mg of sodium / tspoon? Not saying to avoid all together, but keep an eye on it.

[starbells]

Curious...why the aversion to the fat burners (especially since the ban on ephedra)? I'm assuming, it's the effect on cortisol???

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
Curious...why the aversion to the fat burners (especially since the ban on ephedra)? I'm assuming, it's the effect on cortisol???

[/ QUOTE ]

Ephedra was the only one that was somewhat effective but at the same time carried serious health risks. The ephedra free fat burners on the market now are just plain useless.

[starbells]

I'm new to this site, and based on your statement......

have most of the "regulars" (including yourself) already tried the newer burners? with no results, whatsoever?

I used Hydroxycut(the original), with success---but have not really used one of the new ones to be able to determine their effectiveness.

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[starbells]

Of course, I haven't used it since about 3 years ago. Although I felt it helped me reach my goals at times...and I didn't fall into any risk categories...I began my CN program, and was suspicious that I could be burning out my adrenals.

[Coz]

I have used Ephedra in the past with good results on a cut but because of the health risks I will never use it again. Hydroxycut is glorified Caffeine. Here is a breakdown of what it contains;

Garcinia Cambogia - no conclusive evidence supports it as an effective fat burning supplement.

Gymnema sylvestre - Supposed to block sweet tastes and it is used as an appetite suppresant but again, not enough evidence supports this. Most likely placebo effect. No long term safety studies done yet.

Glucomannan - Water soluble fiber. Supposed to clean digestive tract and treat constipation. Just like any fiber it may help the feeling of fullness which suppresses apetite however to be effective you need dosages of at least 3 grams per day which is not even close to the dose in Hydroxucut. There are also uncomfortable side effects such as flatulence.

Alpha Lipoic Acid - Functions like an antioxidant and used for many treatments and generally safe but again the dosages in Hydroxycut are miniscule.

Willow Bark Extract - similar effect as Aspirin

The stimulants in Hydroxycut are:

Guarana Extract - Supposed to pack twice the potency of caffeine.
Caffeine - Stimulant, use it sparringly.
Green Tea - Antioxidant and mild stimulant, buy it seperately.


You are better off saving your money and using caffeine sparringly and green tea more often for it's antioxidant properties as well.

[crashc2121]

start with your diet before you start taking pills for fat burning. theres no magic formula out there

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[Adam Knowlden]

GLV is the way to go. Not only is the price of this stack economical, but a steady diet of GLV's will increase your insulin sensitivity, destroy cancer and all types of diseases, and increase your body building lifestyle in inumerable ways!

Don't waste your money on these new fat burners. As Coz said they're glorified caffeine pills that are heavily taxed. I can't believe how much they charge when I go to the store for that junk.

If you are looking for an energy edge, try 8 oz of coffee in conjunction with a bag of green or black tea left soaking in the mug for 5 mins.

I recommend this only in conjunction with the priority principle. For example if you are prioritizing calves, only use this on calf day.

Green tea has some fat burning properties but most do not take enough, think in grams. Caffeine is noted as a fat burner, but its potency is weak for daily fat burning properties.

Be sure to re-hydrate yourself as well. The standard is 16oz of water for every 8 oz of coffee. I would double that, along with water throughout your training period.

Another potenct energy stack is 16 ounces of water + 1 b-complex capsule + 600mg green tea extract + 20 mg of V inpocetine.

[starbells]

[ QUOTE ]
Nor did thousands of others who have problems now from using it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you refer to? (besides the obvious-death)

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[starbells]

I will read them......

you mean even AFTER ceasing consumption?

[Adam Knowlden]

Ephedra is dangerous. It constricts blood vessels and raises blood pressure.

This is counteractive to health and body building.

Ephedra was basically legal speed. I believe it lead many, including myself, to overtrain. Since Yu(the master of supp. analysis) began seriously critizing and studying this supplement I quit taking it.

Basically, it leads one to believe they are fully energized and rested when they are not. This can easily lead to overtraining.

Discipline in the areas of sleep and hydration will produce much better energy levels than a stimulant, and will lead to better kinesthetic proprioception.

I may supp with 100-200mg caffiene during a prioritization protocol.

I believe many of us are concerned not only about gaining mass and reducing BF, but staying healthy. Relying on stimulants is not optimal.

Ephedra produces much higher blood pressure in nearly everyone who takes it.

Long term effects are even scarier to consider. Some studies show increased cortisol post workout with ephedra enhanced products.

All in all, its not effective enough to tamper with your blood pressure.

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[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed. Drug addicts would use it to mimic the effects of ecstasy, and the biochemical pathways ephedrine follows in the body are that of methanphetamines.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I can recall several times when I strained a muscle when consuming ephedra. I believe its properites allowed for the dulling of negative pain. By negative pain I mean the type of pain that produces musclular strains/sprains, tendonitis, and joint inflammation.

So for example, I could be doing a exercise with improper form. Normally my body would alert me to this and I would set the weight down and correct the form. However, on ephedra this "warning" was overridden by the drug causing me to sustain injuries. Typically I would not even know it until the next day. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

The moral of the story is, if you have ephedra laying around, throw it away.

If you're going to use caffeine/green tea for the occasional energy boost, use it as a tool for bodybuilding, not as a source of addiction.

Moreover, remember that you need to re-hydrate yourself afterwards.

[theory]

[ QUOTE ]

Green tea has some fat burning properties but most do not take enough, think in grams.


[/ QUOTE ]
So how much is enough 2g say?

[qoute]
Another potenct energy stack is 16 ounces of water + 1 b-complex capsule + 600mg green tea extract + 20 mg of V inpocetine.

[/ QUOTE ]
What is V inpocetine?

And finnaly is green tea extract expensive?

[Chapster]

Big T,

I know how you feel, you dont always have the time of day that you want to eat healthy and always spend as much time at the gym as you'd like. And despite what everyone says that pills dont work, Ive tried a few and found they helped quite a bit actually. No I never tried ephedrine products as I was never old enough to care when it was legal, but this past summer I tried a few "fat loss supplements" in coordination with dieting and cardio and it helped me lose 40 lbs in 2.5 months. The kinds I tried, were Thermolean, Cyclocuts and Low Carb balance.

First of all they help because they curb appetite, which is the first killer to any diet. Second they help raise metabolism by way of thermogenics which raises your body temperature.

The ones I found helped best were Cyclocuts, Second was Thermolean, and third, Low Carb Balance, well I hit my goal and never finished 3/4's of the bottle and they would be better used in conjuction with a low carb diet such as Atkins.

So my non expertise, non professional, only tried and tested suggestion is to buy a bottle of Cyclocuts (they contain no harmful ingredients) and spend 30-60 mins on the cardio machines and try cut your calories. When I was losing all of my weight I was down anywhere from 1000-1500 calories/day.

Sorry if no one on here likes my suggestion or thinks I know nothing but this is what I did and lost 40 lbs with the help of these pills along with some hard work.

So goodluck Big T and keep us posted

[HKDave]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if no one on here likes my suggestion or thinks I know nothing but this is what I did and lost 40 lbs with the help of these pills along with some hard work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it was your hard work and not the pills that helped you lose 40lbs? Give credit to your hard work, and not to some pill you just pop... /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theory]

My questions seems to have been missed.

How much many grams of green tea did OldSchool have in mind when he said

[ QUOTE ]

Green tea has some fat burning properties but most do not take enough, think in grams.


[/ QUOTE ]

And what is V inpocetine?

[HKDave]

I think there's a green tea article here somewhere... Sorry i dont know the link

[Adam Knowlden]

Here are links for you.

http://www.priory.com/focus15.htm

[theory]

Thanks for the first link, something weird happened with the second though /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[psaturn]

What is your opinion on this ?

Control of your Fat Burning Systems

By: Dr. Anthony J. Meduri
PhD Biochemistry
DcS Neurochemistry
F.A.C.N



Fat is the symptom - excess calories are the cause. Fat storage is a natural function of the body, like respiration, circulation, and digestion. Discovery of the hormone leptin in 1994 catalyzed the field of obesity research by demonstrating the existence of an afferent humoral signal from adipose tissue to the central nervous system.

Current evidence suggests that once adipose tissue accumulates, a system of overlapping neuroendocrine systems prevents it from diminishing. This counter-regulatory mechanism, which has probably evolved as protection against starvation and fetal or neonatal wastage, causes changes in appetite and metabolism that make volitional weight loss difficult to achieve.

Data from the 1999 National Health Nutritional and Exercise survey demonstrated that 34% of adults in the United States were over-weight, and 30.8% obese, resulting in a total of 64.8% above normal weight. The prevalence of overweight and obesity in children is 13%, a doubling since 1980, while adolescents have experienced a tripling in prevalence since then.

Adipose tissue is an active endocrine organ that produces free fatty acids and hormones, such as IL-6, TNF, plasminogen activation inhibitor1, angiotensinogen, and others, directly related to the insulin resistance, hyperlipidemia, inflammation, thrombosis, and hypertension that characterize obesity.

Thermogenic control of energy (fat)

Stimulation of adrenergic receptors induces thermogenics (increase in body temperature and metabolic rate) and fat (free fatty acids) to be released from storage. The alpha & beta adrenergic receptors when stimulated, cause the bodys own adrenaline and nor-adrenaline to be released.


What is needed?

For thousands of years, Citrus Aurantium (also known as zhi shi) has been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine to treat chest congestion and indigestion, stimulate gastrointestinal functions, and improve circulation and liver function - with no reported adverse reactions.

Citrus Aurantium triggers beta-3 receptors. The key to Citrus Aurantiums effectiveness is its ability to stimulate beta-3 cell receptors with minimal impact on alpha-1, alpha-2, beta-1, and beta-2 receptors.

This means that Citrus Aurantium functions to increase the metabolic rate without affecting heart rate or blood pressure.

Citrus Aurantiums unique composition of adrenergic amines causes the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline - most likely, in the vicinity of the beta-3 receptor sites, which are found primarily in adipose tissue and the liver.

Stimulation of these beta-3 receptors elicits the breakdown of fat - known as lipolysis. Simultaneously, this stimulation causes an increase in the metabolic rate - thermogenesis - which burns calories.

Research has shown that Citrus Aurantium stimulates beta-3 receptors almost exclusively and - unlike other thermogenic products - makes minimal contact with the alpha-1, alpha-2, beta-1 and beta-2 receptors that can cause negative cardiovascular side effects.

Mechanism of Action

Since the amines in Citrus Aurantium are not as lipophilic as those in ma huang/ephedra, they do not readily cross the blood/brain barrier. In fact, the unique amine composition in Citrus Aurantium prefers retention in the periphery rather than passage into the brain.

Additionally, research shows that Citrus Aurantium stimulates beta-3 cell receptors with minimal impact on alpha1, 2 and beta 1,2 receptors, which means that Citrus Aurantium increases the metabolic rate without affecting heart rate or blood pressure unlike ma huang/ephedra.

Ephedra is a non-selective beta agonist which causes increased heart rate, high blood pressure, nervous jitters, restlessness, and insomnia. Unlike ephedra, synephrine does not easily cross the blood-brain barrier and is a selective beta-3 agonist with none of the negative side effects of ephedra.

Other important herbs

Gingko Biloba Extract Is backed with several hundreds of clinical studies and journal articles in medical/scientific journals. GBE has a long history in stimulating circulation, improving memory and cognition. GBE is a potent anti-oxidant with free radical scavenging abilities.

The inclusion of GBE is also important because of its ability to act in a continuous way on reactivation and up-regulation of beta-1, beta-2, and beta-3 receptor sites, which are responsible for increasing metabolic activities and stimulating the Central Nervous System.

Additional aspects include direct implications to weight control and emotion/drive vis-a-vie stimulation of the regeneration of the hippocampus and its cholinergic receptors. GBE is one of the prime influencers on the CCK hormone and its ability to signal appetite satiety.

Cholecystokinin (CCK), which is released in response to dietary fat, enhances nutrient absorption by slowing gastric emptying and stimulating gallbladder contraction, and inhibits food intake during the meal via the afferent vagal system.

Thermogenics in the Liver
Hepatothermic therapy (HT) is rooted in the observation that the liver has substantial capacities for both fatty acid oxidation and for thermogenesis. When hepatic fatty acid oxidation is optimized, the newly available free energy may be able to drive hepatic thermogenesis, such that respiratory quotient declines while basal metabolic rate increases, a circumstance evidently favorable for fat loss.

Effective implementation of HT may require activation of carnitine palmitoyl transferase-1 (rate-limiting for fatty acid beta-oxidation), an increase in mitochondrial oxaloacetate production (required for optimal Krebs cycle activity), and up-regulation of hepatic thermogenic pathways.

In a recent project I completed, the formula exhibits mild (time release) alpha-1, beta-1, and beta-2 receptor stimulation, promoting the desired effect of energy (feel like exercising) and appetite control. Beta-3 receptors are (selectively) potently stimulated, increasing the rate at which fat is released from adipose stores.

This formula (by stimulating your bodys release of adrenaline and nor-adrenaline) also facilitates an increase in physical performance, exercise, and athletics. So, you can now see, safe and effective stimulation of thermogenesis is possible with the development of potent, yet specific, Beta?3-adrenergic receptor agonists.

Hormonal control of energy (fat)

The discovery of leptin and other genes responsible for obesity in rodents has had a considerable impact on our understanding of body weight regulation. Leptin (derived from Greek leptos, meaning thin) is a hormone that is produced by fat cells and circulates at levels proportional to body fat content. Leptin crosses the blood-brain barrier to bind to its receptor in the hypothalamus, thereby activating signals that inhibit food intake and increase energy expenditure.

From an evolutionary perspective, the physiological function of leptin is probably as a metabolic switch that serves to preserve body fat during times of famine, rather than an anti-obesity agent that suppresses body fat during times of food excess. Leptin is known to affect the gene expression and synthetic pathway of both anorectic (appetite-suppressing) and orexigenic (appetite-stimulating) substances. Leptin also down-regulates endocannabinoid receptors that act in the hypothalamus to stimulate food intake.

Gastrointestinal tissues also relay information to the brain about energy balance through neural and endocrine pathways. Insulin and its receptor have traditionally been studied for their role in glucose homeostasis.


Intracellular control of energy & appetite

Intracellular metabolites regulate energy metabolism and signal the availability of fuel to metabolite sensitive hypothalamic neurons. Interference with central pathways involved in the synthesis of malonyl-CoA or fatty acids are also showing efficacy.

Scientists have discovered the first direct evidence in mammals that a chemical intermediate in the production of fatty acids is a key regulator of appetite. We have long known that hunger causes increases in some brain chemicals while lowering others. However, the root cause of hunger's effects -- the initial chemical trigger of appetite -- has been elusive.

In recent experiments with mice, the Johns Hopkins researchers showed that appetite is immediately and directly tied to amounts of a chemical called malonyl-CoA. In hungry mice, malonyl-CoA was almost undetectable in the brain. Once fasting mice were given food, however, amounts of the chemical increased to high levels within two hours. It appears as though malonyl-CoA levels control appetite and levels of other brain chemicals that we know go up and down with hunger and feeding. This is the first direct evidence that malonyl-CoA could be the body's primary appetite controller.


It has also been shown that an adipocyte-derived hormone, Acrp30 (also known as AdipoQ or adiponectin), increases fatty acid oxidation in muscle and liver and may regulate fat accumulation without significantly affecting food intake. Many other molecules, including other peptides, neurotransmitters, cytokines, steroid hormones, and enzymes, such as 1??-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, involved in steroid hormone metabolism, affect energy homeostasis.

How this works

The formation of fatty acids from excess amounts of glycogen (glucose) involves CoA. In the first step in the synthesis of fatty acids, malonyl-CoA is formed by the carboxylation of acetyl-CoA. Fatty acid chain elongation is dependent on CoA. CoA is also needed for the transport of long chain fatty acids into the mitochondria, a critical component of beta-oxidation, the process of converting fats to energy.

B-5 has a wide array of functions which interact with fat metabolism, including synthesis, degradation, and transportation of fatty acids. The metabolic activity of Vitamin B5 is due to its role in the synthesis of CoA.

CoA is a cofactor in over 70 enzymatic pathways, including fatty acid oxidation, carbohydrate metabolism, pyruvate degradation, amino acid catabolism, heme synthesis, acetylcholine synthesis, and phase II detoxification acetylations.

Several hormones might impact the synthesis of pantothenic acid-dependent
enzymes. In experimental models, glucagon increases, while insulin decreases,
the incorporation of pantothenic acid into CoA. Glucocorticoids appear to potentiate the effects of glucagon. Hyperthyroidism is also reported to increase CoA synthesis.


What else can be done?




Many systems must come into play in promoting fat loss. The idea of high protein and low carbs will address the low (restricted) calories and insulin required. Additionally, providing the energy and the building blocks (amino acid molecules) you need to continue burning fat by attenuating the rate limiting factors of beta-oxidation. Methylation is also one of these systems that will come into play.



Methylation is a natural process and function of your body. Much like digestion, circulation, or respiration, methylation is essential for life. Methylation occurs in every cell in your body and almost every cell in nature. Fat cells (when they mature, are the most metabolically active, are able to produce Leptin and easiest to loose) must first be methylated, before they can become mature. Methylation also re-cycles the harmful byproduct of all protein synthesis, homocysteine back into the amino acid Methionine (essential for all protein synthesis). Increasing methylation results in an increased metabolism, which allows you to burn fat and build muscle quicker and more efficiently.

What is needed for Methylation to occur?


For methylation to occur, methyl cofactors, methyl donors, methyl acceptors, methyl groups, ATP, and the catalyst (specific methylation enzyme) must be present and available. Deficits in any of the above mentioned molecules result in deficient systems in the cells of your body. This results in lowered metabolism, repair, recovery, health (immune system), growth and fitness. Additionally, methyl deficits are expressed in improper gene DNA expression, replication, interpretation, and repair. Methyl deficits ultimately result in premature aging, disease and death.


Can Methylation affect exercise, fitness & performance?


Methylation, like all cellular functions is optimized in an environment that contains energy (ATP). ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) is cellular energy in its most basic form. Creatine monohydrate supplies the P in ATP, it is one step removed from cellular energy in its most basic form. Methylation is the key step that is required by your cells to make creatine from dietary protein.


*


The metabolic cost of methylation is high, requiring the use of 12 ATP molecules per methylation event. The fact that evolution has retained such an expensive reaction underscores the biological importance of this posttranslational modification.

*Energetics of body weight control


The high frequency of relapse and limited weight loss attainable are among the frustrations experienced. Investigation of the energetics of weight loss and weight gain demonstrates that maintenance of a reduced body weight is associated with declines in energy expenditure that are greater than can be accounted for by reductions in metabolic mass.


The weight-reduced state is also characterized by decreased circulating triiodothyronine and thyroxine concentrations, and reduced sympathetic and increased parasympathetic nervous tone. These changes persist for months to years in weight-reduced subjects.

The answers

95% of people, who lose weight, regain the weight because the aforementioned systems have not been controlled. It may take 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years, but eventually the Neuroendocrine Systems (unless controlled) remembers where you wereFAT.


Calorie restriction, exercise, and thermogenics produce additive effects. Another approach includes behavior therapy. The goal of behavior therapy is to overcome barriers to compliance with a diet and physical activity. Physical activity increases energy expenditure and is a key component of any weight maintenance program, counteracting the reduction in total energy expenditure that occurs with weight loss. In general, individuals should build up to a 30-to 45-minute exercise regimen, daily if possible, of the greatest intensity exercise that is safe for their own level of fitness.

In order to induce weight loss a calorie deficit must be created. The optimal macronutrient composition of a weight-reducing diet is still controversial.

Rapid absorption of glucose from the highglycemic index meal results in relatively high insulin and low glucagon concentrations, which induce a reactive hypoglycemia that stimulates hunger and favors storage of fat. High protein and fat modified foods, lower in total carbs and sugars are only effective in achieving weight loss if they are also low in calories.

The more systems that you address and control, like exercise, thermogenisis, caloric restriction, high protein, low carbs (insulin), methylation, antioxidants, small meals (frequency), chelated minerals (bioavailable), the better chance you have for permanent success.

*
Future strategies

Effective weight-loss therapy will most likely involve blockade of the action of more than one orexigenic factor to yield a rational combined therapy.


For example, therapies that combine anorexigens with supplements that shift lipid partitioning toward oxidation and decrease insulin resistance are more effective than either class used alone.

Another goal of research in this field is to understand how short-term signals from the gastrointestinal tract integrate with longer-term signals of metabolic status within the central nervous system and influence decisions regarding meal termination and frequency. Knowledge of these processes may provide critical therapeutic targets.


The evidence is overwhelming that obesity, once established, is a multiorgan endocrinopathy of body weight regulation. That treatment for this disorder will ultimately be more effective seems increasingly obvious. Clearly the time is ripe for the development of new weight-loss supplements.

In the near future we should see therapies specifically aimed at elements within the weight control circuitry that will act with greater efficacy, perhaps when used in combination, but will not produce the untoward side effects associated with past treatments.


* web page (http://osmo.net/Control%20of%20Fat%20Burnings%20Systems.htm)

[CraZy-T!]

The Citrus Aurantium sounds like it works similarly to the HCA that Joe mentions in his second article on divergent fat burners. I think the verdict was that it looked promising, but that more research needed to be done on its safety. Animal studies didn't look good.

Never heard of the second one mentioned though.

[psaturn]

According to this article, http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=87

Citrus Aurantium does raise blood pressure level in animals...

well I guess I am not going to use this product until I learn more about it !

[psaturn]

Already have lawyers on the injury board...sigh..

http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=1230

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[psaturn]

Can u be a bit more specific in what ways were the basic facts wrong ? I can tell the guy that had that website...

[HKDave]

Another "New" product...

THERMOGAIN™ Is the World's First Musclebuilding Thermogenic!

THERMOGAIN burns calories and stimulates muscle growth at the same time! Be advised that THERMOGAIN is not for everyone and should only be used by serious bodybuilders and athletes. The powerful ingredients found in THERMOGAIN are scientifically shown to increase thermogenesis, build muscle, increase strength, and crank up workout intensity when combined with an intense exercise and nutrition program.

The THERMOGAIN formula contains both patented and patent-pending ingredient combinations. ALPHA-GAIN™ is a blend of ingredients that includes tri-creatine malate and alpha lipoic acid, which efficiently helps drive creatine into your muscles. The ingredients of INCINERATE™ include green tea extract (leaf) and caffeine, which helps burn calories.

---

How different is this from the Ephedra stuff>

[HKDave]

Joe, can you (of course you can, hehe, I should say, when you have the time, could you...) please dissect the ingredients as to why this claim of building muscle while losing fat thing doesn't work?

I can only think of roids being able to do this hehe.

TIA

[XzinX]

So whats the best method to lose weight and increase metabolic rate without these pills? I am 1.79m and currently weigh about 110kg. Btw, I am a rugby player. How do I lose all the fats safely and efficiently without losing the mass?

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[XzinX]

Can you provide links to the cutting articles? I am relatively new to this site and I've been away for so long and when ABC did a revamp on the website, I am totally lost. Thanks for your help. I am desperate to get back in shape.... and really pound on the opponents in the field....Hahahahaah

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[Fireproof]

[ QUOTE ]
See the tab above that says "NUTRITION?" Click on it, then click "INDEX PAGE" that pops up below it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great answer. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. TEACH a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Wolfheart]

What do you guys think about L-Carnitine. Will it be effective and safe while cutting?

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[Fireproof]

Yep - I supplement with ALCAR when cutting. Read the above article for good detailed information.

[Mo's]

Yes i agree, green leafy vegetables, slow releasing carbs and a ton of protein will give you much better results. Also supplement your diet with vitC, chromuim and a multi vit/min is also a must!!

[lemonade1]

bigt, which vitamins have u found give u the best energy burst before workouts?

[Ferg]

whats up everyone. I'm fairly new here, just starting on a cut now and changing my diet and workout accordingly. I've been reading quite a bit about people taking fat burning supplements and the active ingredient is caffeine that stimulates fat burning. Would it be beneficial taking a straight caffeine pill? one 8 oz cup of coffee has 100mg of caffeine but a caffeine pill wont have the sugar and other crap in it to make it taste good. I did a search on caffeine pills and couldnt find anything. What's everyones opinion on caffeine pills???

Thanks
Ferg

[tom10]

Use them sparingly and make sure to drink PLENTY of water after using them. Caffeine pills will keep you up all night if you're dead tired where as a cup of coffee won't (personal experience). My guess is that there is a lot more caffeine in the pills than in coffee and in this case you might just want to use one maybe once every few weeks or so if not less.