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lifting4life
01-07-2005, 07:51 PM
I am back on a creatine product. I am trying one of the new ester creatine not monohydrate. (CRE2HCL). My job mon-fri requires me to walk about 3 miles a day, but i still notice that I am starting to put on water weight. Should I throw in a extra day of cardio hitting my necessary heart rate? I don't want to screw up my bulk by doing too much cardio? Should I jump on a stationary bike or just keep doing the walking at work and worry about cardio when I cut? Thanks Guys!


Age:Jus turned 18
Height: 5'11.5"
Weight: 190lbs (bulk from 170lbs)4 months.
BF%: 17% currently bulking
Bench:235
Squat:365
Deadlift:300

**DONOTDELETE**
01-07-2005, 10:02 PM

STEVEsteveSTEVE
01-07-2005, 10:07 PM
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I am back on a creatine product. I am trying one of the new ester creatine not monohydrate. (CRE2HCL). My job mon-fri requires me to walk about 3 miles a day, but i still notice that I am starting to put on water weight. Should I throw in a extra day of cardio hitting my necessary heart rate? I don't want to screw up my bulk by doing too much cardio? Should I jump on a stationary bike or just keep doing the walking at work and worry about cardio when I cut? Thanks Guys!


Age:Jus turned 18
Height: 5'11.5"
Weight: 190lbs (bulk from 170lbs)4 months.
BF%: 17% currently bulking
Bench:235
Squat:365
Deadlift:300

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Dont worry about the chardio in regards to water retention. Increased water retention is going to happen when switching onto creatine, it is not related to fat storage. Worry about it on a cut if you have to at all.
Read up on creatine Here (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=870836&an=0&page=0#87083 6)

****it Joe, beat me to it. Take joes advice above mine, he probably understood your problem better /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

lifting4life
01-08-2005, 10:51 AM
I am pretty new to bodybuilding and I thought I knew most things but could you tell me what a "simple CHO" is? I don't think I'm taking one...

CraZy-T!
01-08-2005, 11:53 AM
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I am pretty new to bodybuilding and I thought I knew most things but could you tell me what a "simple CHO" is? I don't think I'm taking one...

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CHO=carbohydrate, simple ones being sugars and things easily broken down into sugars.

Many creatine products have a simple sugar mixed in with them, if yours claims to have a "transport system", or has any carbs listed on the label, then it's with a simple carb.

Taking creatine with simple carbs should be avoided as it unnessicarily spikes your insulin, which will encourage your body to store more fat.

William Ustav
01-08-2005, 11:54 AM
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I am pretty new to bodybuilding and I thought I knew most things but could you tell me what a "simple CHO" is? I don't think I'm taking one...

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Simple carbohydrate /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JHI
01-08-2005, 12:31 PM
" I thought I knew most things but could you tell me what a "simple CHO" is?"

Simple carbohydrate.

Monosaccharides and disaccharides collectively make up the simple sugars.

Quote from Exercise Physiology Fifth Edition Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance

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MONOSACCHARIDES

The monosaccharide represents the basic unit of carbohydrates. More than 200 monosaccharides exist in nature, categorized by the number of carbon atoms in their ring. The Greek name for this number ending with "ose" identifies them as sugars. For example, troses are monosaccharides with three carbons; tetroses have four carbons; pentoses, five; hexoses, six; and heptoses, seven. Hexose sugars include the nutritionally important monosaccharides glucose, fructose, and galactose. Glucose, also called dextrose or blood sugar, forms naturally in food or in the body through digestion of more complex carbohydrates. Gluconeogenesis also synthesizes glucose, primarily in the liver, from the carbon residues of other compounds (generally amino acids, but also glycerol, pyrivate, and lactate). AFter absorption by the small intestine, glucose either (1) becomes available as an energy source for cellular metabolism, (2) forms glycogen for storage in the liver and muscles, or (3) is converted to triglyceride for later us as energy.
Fructose (fruit sugar or levulose), the sweetest simple sugar, occurs in large amounts in fruits and honey. Some fructose goes directly from the digestive tract into the blood, but all eventually becomes glucose in the liver. Galactose does not exist freely in nature; rather, it combines with glucose to form milk sugar in the mammary glands of lactating animals. The body converts galactose to glucose for use in energy metabolism.

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Quote from Exercise Physiology Fifth Edition Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance

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OLIGOSACCHARIDES

Oligosaccharides (oligo, Greek, meaning a few) form when 2 to 20 monosaccharides bond chemically. The major oligosaccharides, the disacchardes or double sugars, form when two monosaccharide molecules combine. Monosaacharides and disaacharides collectively make up the simple sugars. These sugars are packages commercially under a variety of guises - brown sugar, corn syrup, fruit syrup, molasses, barley malt, invert sugar, honey and "natural sweetners."
Disaccharides all contain glucose, Three principal disaccharides exist.

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<ul type="square"> Sucrose (glucose + fructose), the most common dietary disaacharide, contributes up to 25% of the total caloric intake in the United States. It occurs naturally in most foods that contain carbohydrates, especially beet and cane sugar, brown sugar, sorghum, maple syrup, and honey. In many countries, sucrose goes by the common name of table sugar, beet sugarm or cane sugar. Honey, while sweeter than table sugar because of its greater fructose content, is not superioir to table sugar either nutritionally or as an energy source.

Lactose (glucose plus galactose), the only sugar not found in plants, exists in natural form only in milk as milk sugar. The least sweet of the disaccharides, lactose when artificially processes often becomes an ingredient in carbohydrate-rich, high-calorie liquid meals. A substantial segment of the world's population experiences lactose intolerant (9 of every 10 Japanese, Thais, and Filipinos, and nearly 70% blacks) because they lack adequate quantities of the enzyme lactase that splits lactose to glucose and galactose during digestion. A lactose-intolerant individual who consumes milk or dairy products cannot digest these foods. Consequently, the intestinal lumen draws in a large amount of water becasue of the osmotic effect caused by the inability to split the lactose molecule for absorption, which then produces carmps and diarrhea.

Maltose (glucose plus glucose) occurs in beer, breakfast cereals, and germinating seeds. Also called malt sugar, this sugar easily cleaves into two glucose molecules but makes only a small contribution to the carbohydrate content of the diet.[/list]

The two main simple carbohydrates that us bodybuilders are concerned with are maltodextrin and dextrose (glucose, blood sugar)

Quote from Venom (2004)

DEXTROSE

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Dextrose

Dextrose, commonly called glucose, d-glucose, or blood sugar, occurs naturally in food, and is moderately sweet. It is a monosaccharide (basic unit of carbohydrates, C6H1206) and has a high glycemic index (digested carbohydrates ability to raise blood glucose levels, also called Gl) ranking at 100.

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Quote from Venom (2004)

MALTODEXTRIN

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Maltodextrin

Maltodextrin is a sweat, easily digested carbohydrate made from cornstarch. The starch is cooked, and then acid and/or enzymes (a process similar to that used by the body to digest carbohydrates) are used to break the starch into smaller chains (3-20 chains in maltodextrin). These chains are composed of several dextrose molecules held together by very weak hydrogen bonds

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Quote from Venom (2004)

GOOD FACT

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Dextrose is labeled a simple carbohydrate and Maltodextrin complex. And now this should make perfect sense. But don’t be fooled by the word, “complex.” The bonds that compose maltodextrin are very weak, and readily broken apart in your stomach; moreover, the chain is extremely minimal in composition. The weak bonds, and fragile composition of maltodextrin cause it to be digested a fraction slower than dextrose. Why this is so and what exactly hydrogen bonds are will be assessed subsequently.

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DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MALTODEXTRIN AND DEXTROSE

Well, you can note the differences above.

However, the main difference is that dextrose ( blood sugar, glucose ) is a monosaccharide and maltodextrin is a oligosaccharide ( disaccharide )

Monosaccharide represents the basic unit of carbohydrates. More than 200 monosaccharides exist in nature, categorized by the number of carbon atoms in their ring.

Oligosaccharides ( disaccharides ) form when 2 to 10 monosaccharides bond chemically. The major disaccharides form when two monosaccharide molecules combine.

Monosaccharides and disaccharides together make up the simple sugars. Disaccharides all contain glucose.

So, dextrose is glucose and maltodextrin is glucose plus glucose.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

Dextrose, Maltodextrin, and Sodium an In Depth Analysis (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/dextrose.php)

The end all, be all for all PWO/maltodextrin/dextrose Q's. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=929414&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#92941 4)

" I don't think I'm taking one..."

The only time you should be ingesting simple carbohydrates (spiking insulin) is post-workout.

Here are a few quotes from our famous Joe "KFC" King. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Spiking insulin too often will cause insulin desensitivity, also, spiking in the morning will not effectively jump start your metabolism, and will not provide adequate energy stores to get you through the day.

So to reiderate, I do not advise insulin spiking in the morning, unless it is after your morning workout. insulin spikes should ONLY occur post workou.

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insulin spiking post workout will not hinder muscle growth, or promote fat loss. insulin spiking 2 or more times a day may have a negative effect on gains.

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So, why do we want to spike our insulin (ingest simple carbohydrates) post-workout?

Quote from OldSchool (The Window Of Opportunity)

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Why simple carbohydrates? Increased absorption rates, and an abruptly induced insulin burst. The faster you can get glucose into your bloodstream and muscles, the less protein destroyed and the more glycogen stored.



This is the one time of the day when you want to stay clear of complex carbs. Complex and fibrous carbs simply take way too long to digest and will not give optimal insulin release to offset muscle catabolism.



You also want to stay far away from any fat and fructose sources post-workout. Fructose will not replenish muscle glycogen but rather will replenish liver glycogen. Fat severely delays digestion because it metabolically requires so many more processes to break down.



Another vital key to post-workout nutrition is insulin sensitivity. Creating stronger insulin sensitivity is the primary way to get the most out of your post-workout simple carbohydrate intake.



Jacob covers how to do this in his 13 Weeks to Hardcore Fat Burning “The Diet” article. I highly recommend adhering to the list of ways to increase insulin sensitivity he describes in that article whether you are on a bulk or cut. It will make your insulin spike, via simple carbs, that much more potent.



Only certain types of simple carbohydrates will replenish muscle glycogen. These are carbohydrates in the form of glucose/dextrose.



The basis of our simple carbohydrates (post-workout) should come from sources that register high on the glycemic index. A range of 100-130 will work the best for our purposes. Dextrose or Maltodextrin are the two sources of simple carbs I recommend to ingest post-exercise.

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The Window of Opportunity (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php)

A Scientific Investigation into the Rationality of Post Workout Carbohydrate Consumption (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/scientific.php)

Welcome to ABC buddy. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

lifting4life
01-08-2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks! Now does anyone have a favorite CHO that they like to take post workout that I can take with my creatine?

sucramdw
01-08-2005, 01:48 PM
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Thanks! Now does anyone have a favorite CHO that they like to take post workout that I can take with my creatine?

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After the vast amount of information JHI just posted i almost find that question disrespectful.

Quote from JHI's last post
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The two main simple carbohydrates that us bodybuilders are concerned with are maltodextrin and dextrose (glucose, blood sugar)

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You need to read:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php

JHI
01-08-2005, 02:47 PM
"Thanks!"

You're welcome. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

First off, what are you goals? Are you bulking or cutting?

Bulking

Quote from OldSchool (The Window Of Opportunity)

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As a general rule, on a bulk-up plan the amount of carbs to consume following a hardcore weight training session is five grams of carbs per every ten pounds of lean body mass (lbm). This means a 200lb male would consume 100 grams of carbohydrates post-training.

During a bulking phase I recommend consuming half the amount of protein in grams as you did carbohydrates in grams. So in this case our post-exercise shake would be mixed with 50 grams of protein.

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Cutting

Quote from Oldschool (The Window Of Opportunity)

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On a cutting phase I recommend consuming 2.5 grams of carbs per ten pounds of lean body mass (lbm). The goal here is to consume just enough to suppress cortisol and increase growth hormone levels and to get out of our catabolic state. During a time when you are restricting calories, the last thing you want is to be catabolic. I also recommend consuming an equal amount of protein as you did carbohydrates.

So in this same 200 lb. male, he would consume 50 grams of carbs and 50 grams of protein during his cutting phase.

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"Now does anyone have a favorite CHO that they like to take post workout that I can take with my creatine?"

Yes, a 50/50 combination of dextrose and maltodextrin.

Quote from Venom (Dextrose &amp; Maltodextrin an in-depth analysis)

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Importance of consuming a combination of Maltodextrin &amp; Dextrose



After reading Old School’s excellent article on post workout nutrition, the reader is now aware of the importance of consuming easily digested, high Gl carbohydrates at this time. But the question is, why a combination of dextrose and maltodextrin? Both are high in Gl rating, and easily digested right? True, but there is more logic than Gl rating to stacking these two powerhouses. Read on for the answer.



Beginning with the first concept discussed called, “gastric emptying.” Our goal post workout is to maintain a prompt digestion rate so nutrients can transport swiftly and efficiently to our muscles. With that said, it has been shown that this process slows when the ingested fluid contains a high osmolarity concentration (the second concept studied). Osmolarity is dependent on the number of particles in a solution. That is, a100-milliliter solution with 20 glucose molecules will have a higher osmolarity then a100-millileter solution that only contains 10 molecules. The shorter chain length a carbohydrate has, the higher it raises the solution's osmolarity. Therefore, it is no surprise that a pure glucose solution (or dextrose, a monosaccharide) induces very high concentrations of solute (1,3,10).



Fortunately these negative effects become greatly reduced when the drink contains a glucose polymer stacked with dextrose. However, a carbohydrate that is easily digested, and has a high Gl is still desired. Hence, a combination of dextrose and maltodextrin is advised. Osmolarity will be decreased, and glucose will still enter the blood stream at a proficient rate, thus maintaining its anabolic nature (1,3).



A second factor concerning osmolarity must now be examined. From a clinical standpoint, it is vital to take into consideration the fact that plasma (the liquid portion of blood) has an Osmolarity of 300 mOsm. This means that if one were to inject a solution with a greater concentration of solute into their blood, it would cause water from inside their red blood cells to leave by Osmosis (water always travels down its concentration gradient) and move into the plasma, in turn shrinking the erythrocytes (red blood cells). This is because the cells are iso-osmotic to the plasma (both have the same concentration of solute) (11).



A similar concept can be applied to your post workout meal. If a competitor were to consume a solution that was hypertonic or had a higher concentration of solute then 300 mOsm, it could dehydrate them (showing why digestion is rightfully slowed in a high concentrated solution). The addition of maltodextrin once again solves this problem (2,13).



The next question is, why not just use maltodextrin, and eliminate dextrose since it is so proficient? Ah, once again it is not that simple. Shi. X et al. in an outstanding study, tested the digestive effects of two substrates (any substance acted upon by an enzyme) as opposed to only one substrate in the small intestine. What they found was quite fascinating. The solution containing two substrates stimulated the activation of more transport mechanisms in the intestinal lumen, than did its singular counterpart. Therefore, more carbohydrates were transported out of the small intestine (absorbed into the blood), which additionally aided a greater absorption rate of water into the blood stream (by osmosis). Thus, the higher activation rate of transport mechanisms, even with higher osmolarity facilitated faster energy uptake and hydration (12)!



Editors note: Truly Fascinating!



One of these mechanisms is the glucose/Sodium co transport system (discussed in further detail shortly). When a proper amount of sodium and glucose are combined, an even greater amount of glucose is absorbed, and in turn, a higher rate of H20 is absorbed. Thus, dextrose increases fluid uptake, and contributes to blood glucose maintenance. Which in turn helps spare liver and muscle glycogen from being depleted (4,5,6).



As discussed in the Window of Opportunity, these factors make dextrose and maltodextrin the perfect post workout combo. One can purchase both of these in pure form from a local grocery store, or the Internet.

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Also, don't overlook the importance of water and protein post-workout.

Quote from Venom (Dextrose &amp; Maltodextrin an in-depth analysis)

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Importance of water



Gastric emptying is greatly influenced by its volume. Emptying rate decreases exponentially as fluid volume is depleted. Therefore, an effective way to speed gastric emptying is by maintaining high fluid volumes in the stomach. This will also optimize nutrient passage into the intestines. About 500 mL of water immediately before training (spread through a 30 minute time span), and 200 mL every 15-20 minutes (about the rate at which fluids are drained during intense training sessions) of the workout has been recommended to maintain high water levels in your stomach. For optimal hydration, consume a 92% water solution in your post-workout shake. To calculate this, divide the carbohydrate content (in grams) by the fluid volume (in millimeters), and multiply by 100. Thus if you consumed 80 grams of carbohydrates in 1 L of water (1000 mL) you would be having 8% carbohydrates, and 92% H2O (1,3,4,10).



Another reason to frequently drink water is avoidance of dehydration. To name a few reasons why, dehydration reduces circulatory and temperature-regulating capacities, which meet metabolic needs and thermal demands of exercise, and recovery (8,9). The effects of this can further reduce blood flow to the skin for more effective cooling. For much more, read, Effect of Plasma Volume on Myofibril Hydration, Nutrient Delivery, and Athletic Performance (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/hydration.htm) and Thermoregulation: Physiological Responses and Adaptations to Exercise in Hot and Cold Environments. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine04/thermoregulation.htm)

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Quote from Old School (The Window Of Opportunity)

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Importance of water

Water



Re-hydration post-workout is crucial. Thermoregulatory processes need to be put in check as well. Water is responsible for storing carbohydrates and will also help to further speed up the digestion process of the carbohydrates and protein.

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Quote from OldSchool (The Window Of Opportunity)

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Importance of protein

Protein:



Protein intake in combination with simple carbohydrates, post-workout, are the key ingredients to achieving a state of anabolism and offsetting the bodies’ process converting muscle tissue for energy expenditure.



Fast absorption via digestion, is of paramount importance at this stage. So a liquid or powdered form of protein derived from hydrolyzed whey is the best logical supplement. Whey in powder or liquid form takes an average of 20 minutes to absorb, making this form of protein number one in the race for assimilation.



Eating a slower burning form of protein like chicken or beef post-workout is missing the mark completely. It is impossible to take advantage of the post-workout window with a protein food source that will take 2 hours to hit your bloodstream.

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Post-workout shake scheduel.

Quote from Oldschool (The Window Of Opportunity)

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Phase one:

Immediately.

Mix (using the same 200 lb. male on a bulk example) 100 grams of a combination of 50% of your carbs coming from Dextrose and 50 % of your carbs coming from Maltodextrin with,

50 grams of hydrolyzed whey protein,

all mixed with 1 Liter of Water.

Shake all the ingredients well. (I personally like using a Tupperware cup for my shakes)

Scoop out and consume 5-10 grams of creatine, and consume along side the shake. I don’t recommend mixing the creatine directly into the shake. Simply spoon it into your mouth and drink it down with your shake. Consume 1/2 of the shake in this immediately following your workout in this manner. After you have taken half the shake in, continue taking small sips of the shake.

Phase two:

15-20 minutes later

Scoop out and consume (again don’t mix directly into the shake) 5-10 grams of L-Glutamine.

Now is the time to consume any anti oxidants with your shake. A high quality multi-vitamin will work well, or you can just take Vitamin C and/or E.

This combination of L-Glutamine and anti-oxidants will help to super charge your immune system after the beating it has just taken.

Continue sipping on your post-workout meal for the duration of the initial 45-60 minute period.

30 minutes after you have completely finished your post-workout meal eat a well balanced meal.

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