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FJ0

01-07-2005, 06:36 PM

My roommate and I were playing some Bible trivia the other day, and one of the questions asked, "What happened after the Jesus gave up his spirit on the cross?" I obviously stated some of the obvious - he died, the curtain split and the earth shook. But none of those were the answer, it was that the bodies of many holy people came out of their tombs and visited people! I was like huh?

Matthew 27:50-53

"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." 

Anyway, I've read Matthew a few times but never seem to have noticed that before. Neither had any of the other people who were playing. Just wanted to see if any of the wise people from ABC had any more info on this event. How and why did it happen? Does this mean the holy people came out of heaven and visited earth? Or were they just dead and chillin waitin to come back and visit? Seems really wierd/ghostlike to me, but anyway, if you guys have any good informationt that would be super. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tuf

01-07-2005, 07:41 PM

Exegetes have a lot of difficulty with that passage. It is extremely brief, and there is a lack of paralels, so it raises a lot of questions.

Here are some explanations offered:
-A displaced resurrection account, originally connected with the earthquake of 28:2.
-A primitive Christian hymn.
-A symbolic representation of certain theological ideas about the triumph of Jesus and the dawning of the new age.
-A suggestion that Jesus' resurrection is the first fruits of the general resurrection and that at his second coming, when all the dead are raised, he will be accompanied by the departed saints.

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean the holy people came out of heaven and visited earth? Or were they just dead and chillin waitin to come back and visit?

[/ QUOTE ]
The dead in the rocky country of Palestine were usually placed into chambers that had been carved out of rocky elevations and were closed with a stone slab. So the opening of the tombs was a miracle of God--they were not opened as a result of the earthquake because Matthew restricted the resurrection to the saints--only their tombs were opened. Also, he says "many" of them were opened, not all of them. The passage says they were "raised," which means that their souls were reunited with their bodies--glorified bodies like we will have in heaven one day.

FYI: I referred to Lenski, Abingdon, and Carson's commentaries on Matthew for these answers.

Adam Knowlden

01-07-2005, 07:48 PM

The curtain was the veil of the temple that seperated the Holy of Holies from the Inner Court. Only the High Priest could enter into God's presence in the Holy of Holies. By it being torn, it showed Christ has entered into the Holy places and comes to God on our behalf. God's presence was now open. Through Christ we can all come to God and stand bold before the throne of Grace.

 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Yes this really happened. But notice, they did not appear to people until after Jesus' resurrection. Who they were and who they appeared to is unknown. We do know Christ set the captives free.

Personally, I believe they were the OT saints and those who loved the Lord, resurrected and probably raptured after a season. Christ did descend to shoel and set the captives free.

The account also says the saints "appeared" unto many. That does not mean they hung around on earth. They probably appeared for a long as Christ did, to proclaim the good news.

In the book of Acts we read:

 1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:



Many infallible proofs. In other words, undeniable evidence Christ was alive. One such proof was the numerous saints that arose as Matthew describes.

If this is related it meant they spoke of things pertaining to the kingdome of God and only stayed as long as Christ did (40 days) and then ascended.

There are tales of old testament saints and people like Adam and Eve and Seth being those that were raised, but these are not very credible. They're found in the apocrypha which contains all types of bizzare miracles such as a talking cross that appears to Jesus. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Some other examples of resurrections in the bible are: Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37; 13:20-21; Luke 7:11-15; 8:41-42, 50-56; John 11:1-4, 11-14, 17-44; and Acts 9:36-42; 20:9-12.

Quote from Matthey Henry, bible scholar,

 To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written. The dreadful appearances of God in his providence, sometimes work strangely for the conviction and awakening of sinners. This was expressed in the terror that fell upon the centurion and the Roman soldiers. We may reflect with comfort on the abundant testimonies given to the character of Jesus; and, seeking to give no just cause of offence, we may leave it to the Lord to clear our characters, if we live to Him. Let us, with an eye of faith, behold Christ and him crucified, and be affected with that great love wherewith he loved us. But his friends could give no more than a look; they beheld him, but could not help him. Never were the horrid nature and effects of sin so tremendously displayed, as on that day when the beloved Son of the Father hung upon the cross, suffering for sin, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Let us yield ourselves willingly to his service.

Tuf

01-08-2005, 07:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Christ did descend to shoel and set the captives free.

[/ QUOTE ]
Adam, are you saying that Christ descended to a place of separation from God to save unbelievers? 1 Peter 3:18-20 says, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it a few people, eight in all, were saved through water…” So do you think that is saying that Christ went to hell to preach to lost people to try to save them? Why would he do that when, in other places in the Bible, it is clear that there will be no chance to repent after death? And it says that he spoke to those who rebelled in the time of Noah. Why would he go to hell and try to save just those people? Also, Jesus’ statement, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” seems to me to suggest that there would be an immediate end to Christ’s suffering and his spirit would be welcomed into heaven. If he descended into hell wouldn't he have suffered just by being in such a terrible place?

I know there is a lot of controversy about this subject, but I'm curious to know why you believe that Jesus descended into hell. I have studied both sides of the argument and I don't find either one to be compelling enough to draw a dogmatic conclusion.

Any insights?

Adam Knowlden

01-08-2005, 10:26 AM

Hey Tuf, maybe I said that too briefly.

Here is a quick overview.

The blood of bulls and rams does not wash away sins, it only covers it. Even those such as Abraham sinned, and had not received the blood of Christ, the only way to come to the Father.

 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me 

Before Jesus died, no one was in heaven. For God can not dwell in the presence of sin. In fact, God is so Holy He can not even look upon sin. Holiness is something we can not fully comprehend with our finite minds.

Everyone went to hades. But Hades is like a local jail. Gehenna is the final prison, the lake of fire.

But there is a comfort side(known as Abraham's Bosom) and a torment side in hades.

Jesus descended to hades preached to the prisoners and took those were covered by the blood of bulls and rams to heaven.

[ QUOTE ]
Adam, are you saying that Christ descended to a place of separation from God to save unbelievers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to release sinners, but the saints and those who loved the Lord and take them to heaven when God is.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

I do not believe Jesus suffered in hell, but went to set the captives free and to take the keys of hell and death.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Jesus’ statement, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” seems to me to suggest that there would be an immediate end to Christ’s suffering and his spirit would be welcomed into heaven. If he descended into hell wouldn't he have suffered just by being in such a terrible place?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree that when He committed His Spirit, that was the end of His suffering, but that He did descend into the earth to set the captives free. Eph 4 explains too:

Ephesians 4
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 

Here is from the bible studies:

Yes, Gehena is the lake of fire, the final resting place for all sinners, but hades is where all sinners are right now. Like O.S said, there used to be inhabitants in the comfort side of hades, that's where Abraham and Lazereth were. But Christ went there, and lead captivity captive!

Psalms 68:15-21
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:2-11
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And Jesus said:

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Here is another awesome prophecy on Christ descending into Hades to free the captives.

Proverbs 30:1-6
1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal, 2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. 3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name [I know the answer. ], if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

And Paul quotes this too:

Romans 10:6-11
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So now, the only people in hades are sinners, waiting to be placed in the lake of fire, or Gehenna.

You won't notice this in an English version though, because they use the words Gehena and hades interchangeably; you have to look in the Hebrew and Greek.

In revelation we see those in hell--hades--evacuated, judged and going to Gehenna--the lake of fire:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is a quote from the man, Jack DR. JACK VAN IMPE explaining this:

Verse 11-15: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, fromwhose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no placefor them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and thebooks were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in thebooks, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were init; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and theywere judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were castinto the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not foundwritten in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again John says, I saw. The term is found thirty-seven times in this book.What a privilege was his! This time he views the gloomiest hour of history—the judgment of the wicked—as well as Christ sitting upon a white throne.White is the symbol of purity, justice, and holiness in Scripture. Thoughyour sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow (Isaiah 1:18). His wifehath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayedin fine linen, clean and white (chapter 19, verses 7 and 8).

Since "white" stands for all that is honorable and right, what does itsymbolize? Integrity—for Christ, Who is the truth (John 14:6), is himselfthe Judge. Notice that the term is Great White Throne. This pictures a greatjudgment that is about to fall on those who have rejected the "so greatsalvation" question (see Hebrews 2:3).

How does one know that the tender, loving Jesus is the One who sits upon thethrone as Judge? The answer is found in John 5:22: For the Father judgeth noman, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Again, the Father hathgiven him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man(John 5:27). The One raised from the dead—the Lord Jesus Christ—is theJudge, according to Acts 17:31: [For] he hath appointed a day, in the whichhe will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised himfrom the dead. That moment is now before us!

What a solemn scene as unregenerate mankind comes face to face with God forthe investigation of all their evil deeds. Every transgressor is present:presidents and paupers, high society snobs and skid row derelicts. Yes, thisgroup includes every Christ-rejecter of the ages, small and great, rich andpoor, free and bond. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in thewhich all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [the firstresurrection]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of****ation [the resurrection for judgement] (John 5:28,29). Make no mistakeabout it, there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just andunjust (Acts 24:15).

As the unsaved stand before a holy God, the books are opened. Yes, He hasrecord of every wicked deed sinners have ever committed. Nothing remainshidden. Adultery, abortion, drunkenness, drug addiction, harlotry, hatred,lawlessness, murder, rebellion, sexual promiscuity, wife-swapping, and everyother abominable practice is then exposed in detail.

How is all this possible? God is both omniscient (all knowing) andomnipotent (all-powerful). The psalmist said in chapter 139, verses 1 and 2,0 Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting andmine uprising. God knows everything about every member of the human race.God adds, I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them(Ezekiel 11:5). I know when you have eyes full of adultery, and that cannotcease from sin (2 Peter 2:14). I know when your tongue is about to curse,For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest italtogether (Psalm 139:4). I the Lord search the heart (Jeremiah 17:10). Thisstatement is extremely important, For out of the heart proceed evilthoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,blasphemies (Matthew 15:19).

God’s books will be totally accurate because He sees every move humans make:The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth (2 Chronicles16:9). All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom wehave to do (Hebrews 4:13). That aborted fetus flushed into oblivion, thatsex act in a parked car or motel room, that crooked deal for illegalgain—everything is indelibly inscribed in the journal of the Almightybookkeeper. One cannot hide from God, whoever He may be! Furthermore, nomistakes will be made, for the dead will be judged out of those things whichwere written in the books, according to their works. We also see that everyunbeliever will be present, for the bodies come forth from land and sea andthe souls come from Hades (or hell). Then, body, soul, and spirit arereunited to stand before God.

Many have never realized that there is a time when the wicked are releasedfrom hell. This is not a new doctrine or man-made theory. (Order myfull-length audio cassette, "Hell Without Hell," for a thorough study ofthis subject.) However, for the moment, let’s examine a few facts regardingthis teaching.

The New Testament contains two Greek words—Hades and Gehenna—both of whichare translated hell in our English Bible. [A free complete study is onlineon our website called Hell ] The LordJesus Christ used both words repeatedly. Why two words? Are there twoplaces? Yes! A simple illustration will help us understand.

Everyone knows the difference between a local jail and a penitentiary. Whenan individual is arrested for a crime, he is not placed in the penitentiaryuntil he has had a trial. Instead, he is locked up in the local jail (cityor county), where he awaits his trail. Then, upon being found guilty, he istransferred to the penitentiary, where he serves his sentence. The nextstatement is of extreme importance. Get it! When Jesus used the word Hades,He referred to the local jail—the place where the sinner is bound until thejudgment morning. Then, on Judgment Day, the sinner comes out of the localjail (Hades), stands before the Judge (the Lord Jesus himself), is foundguilty, and is subsequently transferred to the final penitentiary of souls(Gehenna). The lake of fire is usually synonymous with Gehenna.

The eleven instances where Christ mentioned Hades are as follows: Matthew11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:22,23; Acts 2:27; 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55;Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13; and Revelation 20:14.

Gehenna is mentioned twelve times by the Savior: Matthew 5:22; 5:29; 5:30;10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43; 9:45; 9:47; Luke 12:5; and James 3:6.

After studying the twenty-three texts, one ob-serves that verses 13 and 14of our present study now make perfect sense: Death [the grave] and hell[Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them. The plural pronoun "them"indicates two places: the grave and Hades—one for the body and the other forthe soul. Next they were judged every man according to his works (that’s thetrial). Then death and [Hades—Greek] were cast into the lake of fire[Gehenna—the final penitentiary].

Why are they transferred? Gehenna differs from Hades in that Gehenna is aplace where there are degrees of suffering. After one has been examined andjudged as to how much light he had (how often he heard the message ofsalvation and rejected it), he is assigned to this place called Gehenna,where there are degrees of suffering according to one’s light and works.Thus, the final hell will differ for all, depending on one’s evil deeds andthe number of times he rejected Christ’s offer of love.

Now we understand Romans 2:5 a little better: But after thy hardness andimpenitent heart treasurest up [storest up, savest up] unto thyself wrathagainst the day of wrath. This is why it shall be more tolerable [morebearable, more endurable] for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, thanfor [Capernaum] (Matthew 11:24). What was Capernaum’s sin? Capernaum hadgreater light since Christ visited the city and preached to her citizens.This is also why the Pharisees receive the greater ****ation (Matthew23:14).

Clearly, sinners are raised from death and Hades, judged by Christ at theGreat White Throne, and then transferred to Gehenna. The "good news,"how-ever, is that none of this happens to those who are trusting in themerits of the shed blood of Jesus. When one trusts Christ, his name iswritten in the book of life. The judgment just discussed is only for thosewhose names are not found inscribed in the book (see verse 15). If one issaved, he need never be concerned about hell as his eternal destiny, for hethat believeth on [Christ] is not condemned (John 3:18). He is also passedfrom death unto life (John 5:24). Thus, there is therefore now nocondemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Amen.

The great judgment is only for those who participate in the finalresurrection which occurs after the 1,000-year or millennial reign of Christupon earth. Those who were raised prior to the Millennium are eternallysecure, for blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power (verse 6).
And now if a beleiver dies, they will be in heaven with the Lord in a snap, because of the blood of Christ!:

2 Corinthians 5:1-11
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

God took him up to heaven with him, so he was exempted from this, similar to Elijah, and the rapture to come.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some believe he is one of the two people described here in the Revelation:

Revelation 11:3-13
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

And in Zechariah:

Zechariah 4:1-14
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof...11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The bible says the blood of Jesus allows us to sit in the heavenly realms with God. Only kings sit in the presence of a king.

Here we see before Christ died, Isaiah, the great prophet overriden with guilt from the mere presence of God, let alone living with God and sitting with Him. His sin and the sin of Israel made him ashamed to even be in the presence of a Holy God.

We see the alter of Jesus pruging His sin, so he can take God's Holy Presence:

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

I also wanted to add more about why we could not enter heaven before Christ died.

Christ left to prepare a place for us.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

What place is he preparing?

We get more details of this place from the book of the Revelation of Jesus.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Why had Jesus not prepared this place before His sacrifical death?

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We have a more prefect sacrifice:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Because of this we will not have to be ashamed when we see God.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We can come boldly because the holiness and righteousness of Chirst is imputed on us through the gift of salvation.

God's mercy has extended from the Garden of Eden to the present, this is proved by the cross, Noah's Flood, Sodom, Egypt, and many other great trials God lead the children of Israel through.

Here God is fortelling the coming of The Lord immediately after Adam and Eve had sinned, and brought the curse of sin and death on humainity:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The heel of Jesus was bruised on the cross but because of the cross Satan is under the feet of Christ and all Believers, crushing his head.

During the times before Jesus died, the people could not come to God, they had to have a high priest intercede for the them. But God's grace still was as strong as it always was, the Lord does not change.

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

But with the death of Christ, we have a new High Priest who interceds and prays for us. And can reconcile our sins before God.

Because of this he is given authority to destroy sin and death.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And he will do so, as Adam brought death into the world, Jesus will destory death.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Here at the Great White Throne Judgement death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Tuf

01-08-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The blood of bulls and rams does not wash away sins, it only covers it. Even those such as Abraham sinned, and had not received the blood of Christ, the only way to come to the Father.

[/ QUOTE ]
So before Christ's death on the cross, no one could be saved? Could their faith in the coming Messiah not save them?

[ QUOTE ]
Before Jesus died, no one was in heaven. For God can not dwell in the presence of sin.

[/ QUOTE ]
But what about in 2 Kings 2 where the Lord took up Elijah by a whrilwind to heaven? How could that be if what you are saying is true?

And where did Enoch go when God "took him?"

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone went to hades. But Hades is like a local jail. Gehenna is the final prison, the lake of fire.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, it explicitly says that Elijah went to heaven. Are you saying that he was the only exception?

[ QUOTE ]
Not to release sinners, but the saints and those who loved the Lord and take them to heaven when God is.

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

[/ QUOTE ]
/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif Where this translation says, "hell," the Hebrew word is Sheol. So it can be translated as the underworld, the depths, the grave, etc., so how what makes you conclude that the psalmist is referring to Abraham's Bosom?

One of my commentaries says this:
"The essential concept of Sheol is the place of the dead, the grave. The OT does not theorize on the state of life after death. It does not suggest that the godly and wicked dead live together until the Judgment. When the psalmist refers to Sheol, he thinks of the tomb, the place where speaking, laughing, and the praise of God are absent. R.L. Harris describes Sheol correctly as "a typical Palestinian tomb, dark, dusty, with mingled bones and where "this poor lisping stammering tongue lies silent in the grave." (The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Willem A. VanGameren).

Another commentary I have expresses the same concept:
"David here expresses as a confident expectation; for [I can't type Hebrew on my computer /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but it is a particle conjunction] implies that he also hopes for his body that which he hopes for his spirit-life centered in the heart, and for his soul raised to dignity both by the work of creation and of grace. He looks death calmly and triumphantly in the face, even his flesh shall dwell or lie securely, viz., without being seized with trembling at its approaching corruption. David's hope rests on this conclusion: it is impossible for the man, who, in appropriating faith and actual experience, calls God his own, to fall into the hands of death." (Commentary on the Old Testament, Psalms, Keil & Delitzsch)

Why, then, wouldn't you translate this to mean that while he may die, or go into "the grave," the Lord won't permit his beloved ("Holy One") to suffer eternal separation from God (because "see corruption" or "see decay" is a metaphor for alienation from God), rather than interpreting it as him saiying that he will be delivered from Abraham's Bosom?

Adam, thanks for discussing this with me. I hope you realize that I am not trying to argue or debate; I sincerely just want to gain a better understanding. I have more questions, but that is about all I have time to ask right now.

Adam Knowlden

01-08-2005, 05:29 PM

I know you're not argueing. I like discussing this stuff! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif Please note I am not either, just discussing ideas. You are well versed in the Word and I love hearing yours and others insights.

Also I am not trying to be dogmatic, but am open to the scriptures. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

So please do not see me that way. The only thing I see as dogmatic is the basic doctrines of Christianity, ie I do not see one denomination as superior to the other. However, I do believe that quite a few scriptures will make no logical sense if Christ did not go into the heart of the earth and set the captives free. By captives I mean those who lived under the law, yet in faith. Not everyone who died, such as the wicked. I'm sorry if I conveyed that in that manner. I also do not believe Christ suffered in hell, but rather descended into the abode of the dead, preached to those in prison, set the captives free, took the keys of hell and death, and ascended to the Father. He then appeared on the earth for 40 days, along with many of the captives He set free.

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 

Now, to your points,

[ QUOTE ]
So before Christ's death on the cross, no one could be saved? Could their faith in the coming Messiah not save them?

[/ QUOTE ]

First I think I need to clarify what "saved" is.

We are saved from God's Judgement, which is clear only Christ sacrifice could do. If there was salvation through the blood of animals why did Christ have to come and die as a sacrifice? In other words, why not continue attonement through animal sacrifice. I believe the answer is, there is no other way to be saved from God's judgment outside of the blood of Christ for which under those of the first dispensation He had not died.



Isaiah 1:11
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 

That there is no attonment through animal blood. Only faith in the coming Messiah such as you said, which was represented through animal sacrifice. The animal sacrifice did not keep them from God's Judgement, it was evidence of their faith.

 2 Chronicles 29:22
So they killed the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar: likewise, when they had killed the rams, they sprinkled the blood upon the altar: they killed also the lambs, and they sprinkled the blood upon the altar. 

They were reserved from the eternal effects of sin. We know the animals sacrificed were only a foreshadowing of Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
Could their faith in the coming Messiah not save them?

[/ QUOTE ]

 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



I agree their faith temporarily kept them from God's Holy Wrath. However only through Christ were they saved from their sins and allowed into His presence. Before that their faith was only in the promise of His coming. He had not yet been sacrificed to save anyone from their sins.

 1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



So why did Christ come if it is simply possible for faith in the law to forgive our sins? Again the same passage, but in NIV.

 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 

Because the law was only a mirror that we are all sinners. And the sacrifice a foreshadowing of Christ. The sacrifice and faith in the law had no way to save anyone from sin, save they could fulfill the law perfectly.

 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


[ QUOTE ]

But what about in 2 Kings 2 where the Lord took up Elijah by a whrilwind to heaven? How could that be if what you are saying is true?

And where did Enoch go when God "took him?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. First it is important to note Elijah was a rare exception. He, unlike us, did not taste death. Therefore unlike us an the patriarchs he did not die in his sins.

 Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Neither he nor Elijah saw death. Therefore,

 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



 John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, [ Or I am he; also in verse 28] you will indeed die in your sins.” 

I see these as being two exceptions to the rule, not the vast majority so to speak, as they did not die.

Note they were also translated and never died.

How is that possible? I do not know. But it does shedd some light on a section of scripture in Revelation.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that he was the only exception?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think this mystery undermines the point that the law did not offer salvation.

They did not die, so yes, I see them as different than the rest of us and the patriarchs.

Moreover, we do know they are most likely the two witnesses in Revelation,

 Revelation 11:3-13
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

And in Zechariah:

Zechariah 4:1-14
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof...11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


My belief is, they are in heaven and not yet dead. They will be killed by the anti-Christ and raptured, "come up hither" the same words used to call up John and who many feel signifies the rapture of the Church in chapter 4.

[ QUOTE ]
Where this translation says, "hell," the Hebrew word is Sheol. So it can be translated as the underworld, the depths, the grave, etc., so how what makes you conclude that the psalmist is referring to Abraham's Bosom?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know there is a lot of contraversy regarding the translation of hell in the Old Testament.

[ QUOTE ]
Belief that between his crucifixion and resurrection Christ descended into the abode of the dead, as confessed in the Apostles' Creed. Since the New Testament declares that Christ really died, it is to be assumed that he went to Sheol (Gk. "Hades"), the abode of the dead. This is affirmed by the many declarations in the New Testament (over eighty times) that Christ was raised from (among) the dead, and by apostolic allusions to this event. But not all scholars accept this part of the Apostles' Creed, and some liturgical books either omit it or allow for its omission in the recitation of the creed.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I won't argue over the original Hebrew. However I do disagree that there are no inferences to:

[ QUOTE ]
The OT does not theorize on the state of life after death.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that unless one assumes shoel means also a place of torment in the old testament, many passages make no sense,

86:13
For Your faithful love for me is great,
and You deliver my life from the depths of Sheol. 

Deuteronomy 32:22
For fire has been kindled because of My anger
and burns to the depths of Sheol;
it devours the land and its produce,
and scorches the foundations of the mountains.


Psalms 55:15
Let death take them by surprise;
let them go down to Sheol alive,
because evil is in their homes and within them.


Also the saducees who did not believe in the resurrection, spirits, and angels came to Christ with a similar thought,

 18Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

19Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

20Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

21And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.



Christ told them

 24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?


He used one arguement to silence them. The present tense wording "I AM". How can God say, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" in the present tense if their spirit did not presently exist?

This does show the OT not only discussed, but afirmed afterlife of the righteous. I could give many more.

But I won't get into too much of that here. /forum/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Here is a quote from Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
of Biblical Theology :

[ QUOTE ]

Jesus himself used jon 2:6 to describe his death as three days and three nights in the heart (en te kardia) of the earth. This corresponded with contemporary Jewish representations of Sheol as the belly of the fish, when speaking of death and the world of the dead.

Paul used Deuteronomy 30:12-13 and Psalm 71:20 in Romans 10:6-7 to explain the death of Christ as a descent into the abyss (tis katabesetai eis abusson) and the resurrection as a going up from (among) the dead (ek nekron anagagein). And the author of Hebrews (2:14-16) declared that just as Jesus shared fully in the humanity of Abraham's seed, so also he shared the entire experience of death, by which he destroyed the power of Satan.

The significance of this is that the New Testament does not identify Hades as the place where Christ was punished for our sins. Rather, it is the crucifixion—which the disciples actually saw and experienced in all of its horror—that is developed in sacrificial language as the divine punishment and saving event. The use of the word "hell" to denote the place of punishment (Gehenna) is therefore inappropriate. The descent into Hades is rather a part of Christ's full identification with us, as well as the means by which he conquered death (Matt 16:18; Rev 1:18), and became the firstborn from among the dead (Col 1:18; Rev 1:5).

[/ QUOTE ]

He was the firstborn of the dead. The first to die and return to life, glorified.

In Acts we see the meaning of this passage,

 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


First hell here is translated as hades, an abode of the dead, which is where I made this inference from, not just the grave...

 Acts 2:27
because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay.


David was not to be seperated from God...why?...

 34And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.



Becasue Christ did not see corruption. Christ uses this same terminology, hades to refer to a place, not just a concept of dying.

 Matthew
And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today.


 Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will go down to Hades!


 Revelation 1:18
and the Living One. I was dead, but look--I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and Hades.


God is what makes heaven paradise. Even if David was in paradise, he was apart from God, that is why, due to Christ sacrifice he could say this,

 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


I know you're not trying to argue, and if you don't agree, that's cool! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif I just wanted to show where I'm coming from.

Again, I don't think believing this is vital to salvation, but I believe it makes more sense out of many scriptures.

I also worry that many scholars try to make too many of the things in the bible figurative, instead of what they plainly say.

For example, many try to argue that Matt. 27 is not a literal resurrection of the saints, but figurative.

Many also try to argue that demons were not literal entities, but rather a way to describe sicknesses. Many argue that there is no literal hell.

I tend to be more conservative, whereas I feel quite a few bible scholars tend to be more liberal minded. I tend to not find it hard to believe in a literal resurrection of the saints in Matt. 27, or literal demons, a literal hell, a literal 6 days of creation.

For example I have encountered demons as have many of my missionary friends, so for me these types of things are not hard to accept. I think many lose sight of the fact the bible is a book of supernatural events, and while these events can have figurative meanings, the events themselves, are supernatural. By faith I accept these. For me, it is not hard, as I have seen supernatural events in my own life.

To me it is clear Christ went into the heart of the earth and set the captives free. I believe these were the old testament people who lived by faith, yet under the law. Christ took them to heaven with Him to be in the presence of God.

Tuf

01-08-2005, 09:49 PM

Holy Crap, OldSchool! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif lol Thanks for your response.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you're not argueing. I like discussing this stuff!

[/ QUOTE ]
Good, I'm glad.

[ QUOTE ]
Please note I am not either, just discussing ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know that. I appreciate your insights and discussing this with you is helping me to study and gain a better understanding of these issues.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I am not trying to be dogmatic, but am open to the scriptures.

So please do not see me that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I don't. I just had not yet seen anything that was clear enough to me to draw a conclusion, so I thought it would be helpful to me if you could explain why you believe what you do. So thanks for taking the time to do that.

Once again, this has brought up a lot of questions for me. Unfortunately it is getting late and I am going to have to go to bed so I can stay awake in church tomorrow /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but I will start with this...

[ QUOTE ]
First I think I need to clarify what "saved" is.

We are saved from God's Judgement, which is clear only Christ sacrifice could do. If there was salvation through the blood of animals why did Christ have to come and die as a sacrifice? In other words, why not continue attonement through animal sacrifice. I believe the answer is, there is no other way to be saved from God's judgment outside of the blood of Christ for which under those of the first dispensation He had not died.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, atonement means “to cover,” which meant that the sacrifice was interposed between the sin and God-—so He saw the atoning sacrifice rather than the sin. The covering of the sin meant that no penalty had to be exacted from the sinner. The sacrifice was offered as a substitute for the sinner, and it bore the sinner’s guilt. So it seems to me that under OT law, the sacrificial system could in fact save people from God's judgment (obviously not the sacrifices themselves, but the system that God had set up, which of course included faith, repentance, and humility). I don't believe that the sacrifices worked a reformation in the sinner or deterred them or others from committing further sin, but they did atone for the sin/save them from his judgment, even before Christ's sacrifice:

Lev 4:20, “He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.”

26, “And all its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the alter as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he shall be forgiven.

31, “Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the alter for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

35, “Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the alter, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

5:6 “He shall also bring his guilt offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.

10 “The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

13 “So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has committed from one of these, and it shall be forgiven him; then the rest shall become the priest’s, like the grain offering.”

So are you saying that the act of offering a sacrifice and the resultant atonement that provides forgiveness for the sinner not saving them from God's judgment?

I realize that where we differ on this might be because of semantics. Maybe I am misinterpreting something you are saying? Anyway, thanks for discussing this with me, Adam. Okay, I'm off to bed.

Floods

01-08-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Holy Crap, OldSchool! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif lol Thanks for your response.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to be seen as disrespectful here Tuf, but only God is Holy. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

01-08-2005, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Once again, this has brought up a lot of questions for me. Unfortunately it is getting late and I am going to have to go to bed so I can stay awake in church tomorrow , but I will start with this...

[/ QUOTE ]

lol You're funny. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
So it seems to me that under OT law, the sacrificial system could in fact save people from God's judgment (obviously not the sacrifices themselves, but the system that God had set up, which of course included faith, repentance, and humility). I don't believe that the sacrifices worked a reformation in the sinner or deterred them or others from committing further sin, but they did atone for the sin/save them from his judgment, even before Christ's sacrifice:

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think Christ did descend into hades? If not what do you do with all the verses that (I would say) indicate He did so? And if He did what did He do there?

Also why did Christ have to die? Why not continue with this system of atonement?

The way I see it, the ritual of animal sacrifice did not make the sinner holy and righteous, as God demands to come into His presence.

 5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."



Here Isaiah could not even look upon God in a vision due to his shame and sin. The angel then touched his mouth with a coal from the altar (the altar of Christ) and his guilt was taken away and his sins atoned for. Note, this was done under the time of animal sacrifice. Yet Isaiah could still not even look upon God in a vision!

The animal sacrifice only atoned through ceremony because of faith that Christ would come. However, since Christ had not yet come during this time, their faith could not yet be manifested. Once Christ was manifested then their faith could be justified.

For example, I can have faith I will find a new job. By faith I believe that, even though I do not yet have it. Can I reap the rewards of that job without actually having it yet? No, but I can live in faith and God will supply my needs until then, even though the object of my faith is not yet manifested.

Maybe that is a bad analogy, but this is what the animal sacrifice did for Israel. It was simply an object of faith, not the manifestation of it. They lived in faith of God's Word, so God honored that. But that did not make them perfectly Holy and righteous as God commands we are to be.

 Hebrews 11
By Faith
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


 Lev 4:20, “He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.”


Note all those selections state essentially the priest made the atonment.

I believe those verses are all outward ceremonial cleansings. Not, inward cleansings of the soul and spirit, making one holy, which God sees and demands.

The priest who made atonemnt was a sinner as well, so this was all ceremonial, and got to the point where it was hypocritical as Christ showed.

 23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26Such a high priest meets our need–one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.


 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 

Our High Priest Christ Jesus, was perfect. The forgivenss came because by faith one's sins was imputed onto the animal, but the fruits of that faith were not made manifest until Christ came.

This did "forgive their sin" ,but by faith, in the future tense. It did not take the sin away in the more literal sense. Maybe I can explain this way. You are in court because you laundered money. Now the judge comes forth and says, "Bail is 500000 dollars". The bail is paid by an outsider(in this instance the animal sacrifice). You are scott free from the crime, but you still committed the act. You can not suffer the immediate consequences, but you can not be free of the guilt and fact you did committ the crime.

In Christ not only is the fine paid, but it is though the act never was committed in God's eys. This is what God requires.

As the Word the blood of bulls and goats can not take away sins, ie the guilt and shame of sin,


Hebrews 10:4
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 

Taking away means that God sees us and does not see any of our sins, because of Christ. Animal sacrifice could not do that, only the blood of Christ could.

The sacrifice was only a foreshadowing, in no way did it offer the benefits of the New Covenant, ie the taking away of sins and the purifying of our hearts and spirits. It offered the ceremony of atonment. It did keep them from God's wrath until Christ split the veil. For example in your selection:

 Lev 4:20, “He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.” 

The preist made atonement. We know the high priest was the one that went into the holy of holies to make atonment for the people. This was all superficial ceremonial acts of what Christ would do, and proved by the spliting of the temple veil

Hebrews 9,

 Hebrews 9

1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.


The animal sacrifice was a symbol of Christ's atonement.

 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 

Christ was the unblemished sacrifice, and the unblemished Priest, not the OT sacrifices or OT priests. What God honored was their faith in His Words, not the sacrifice.

[ QUOTE ]
The covering of the sin meant that no penalty had to be exacted from the sinner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, there was no penalty on the saints, the fine was paid because of their faith in a future event, but they did not receive the benefit of Christ's blood, to be holy and blameless, and to enter God's presence, until their faith was manifested. God requires perfection and absolute holiness.

Here Paul shows that Christ sacrifice purged the sins of the past who lived by faith:

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Who's sins that are past is Paul referring to?

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


[Vine's Expository Dictionary]:

"forbearance" = "anoche" =

"a holding back...denotes forbearance, a delay of punishment.... His forbearance is the ground not of His forgiveness, but of His pretermission [suspension of the punishment] of sins, His withholding punishment. It is connected with the passing over of sins in times past.....It is connected with the passing over of sins in times past, previous to the atoning work of Christ, [Cp Heb 9:9-15]."

No one can come to God except through Christ.

 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


They were forgiven because of faith in God's Word, but could not come to Him until that faith was manifested and fufilled in Christ's death and resurrection.

I do not believe the OT saints were punished for their sins or tormented in any way. They were in paradise and they believed in Him through faith.

 Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2For by it the elders obtained a good report


However, it is clear aside from the blood of Christ, no one comes to the Father. That included those living by faith under the law.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c] 13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[d] “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[f] 15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know.”[g]
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.



[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that the sacrifices worked a reformation in the sinner or deterred them or others from committing further sin, but they did atone for the sin/save them from his judgment, even before Christ's sacrifice:

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying they could come into the presence of God even without Christ's sacrifice?

I guess I don't see why Christ even had to die then. That makes many many verses highly confusing to me.

 Acts 4:10, 12 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth ...... Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." 

1 John 2:2
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


[ QUOTE ]
The sacrifice was offered as a substitute for the sinner, and it bore the sinner’s guilt. So it seems to me that under OT law, the sacrificial system could in fact save people from God's judgment (obviously not the sacrifices themselves, but the system that God had set up, which of course included faith, repentance, and humility).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree they believed in faith. But that faith was not yet manifested, so how could they reap the rewards of their faith?, ie enter God's presence?

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


He purged our sins, then sat down at the throne.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


This site has many good studies for you,

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/indxb.htm#bible_sites

Here is more for you to read. I know you are still undecided, but that you like Greek and Hebrew word studies:

[ QUOTE ]
In the Septuagint, Hades is found 71 times. It is the Greek equivalent for Sheol 64 times. The other seven times it is found in the Septuagint, it is the translation of other Hebrew words, some of which shed significant light on what Hades meant to the translators of the Septuagint.

In Job 33:22, Hades is the translation of the Hebrew word memeteim, or 'destroying angels [KJV] ... the angels who are commissioned by God to slay the man.' In this sense it refers to disincarnate spirit creatures.

It is also used in Job 38:17 as the translation of the Hebrew, 'the realm of ghosts or shades' (KJV).

It is used for 'the shades of the underworld' in Prov 2:18. This refers to the spirits of the departed in Sheol who are viewed as 'the dwellers in the Kingdom of the dead as in Homer and Virgil and like the Latin word Inferi, it stands for the realm of disembodied souls.'

Not once is Hades the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for grave (kever). Not once does it mean nonexistence or unconsciousness. The times it is used for words other than Sheol, it clearly means the world of spirits. There is, therefore, no way to escape the conclusion that the translators of the Septuagint clearly understood that Hades referred to the realm of disembodied souls or spirits; and, we must also emphasize, that the translators of the Septuagint did not obtain this concept from Platonic Greek thought but from the Hebrew concept of Sheol itself.

THE LEXICOGRAPHICAL EVIDENCE

When we turn to the lexicographical material, we find that the authors of the Septuagint were correct in their usage of Hades as the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew Sheol.

Arndt and Gingrich... A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament... define Hades as 'the underworld ... the place of the dead' (p. 16). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon (p. 11) states that Hades comes from two words which joined together [which] mean 'invisible,' or 'unseen.' Thus it refers to 'the common receptacle of disembodied spirits.'

The KJV mistranslated the word Hades in every occurrence just as it did with the word Sheol. It is found ten times in the Greek New Testament. The Greek text underlying the KJV [the Textus Receptus] has it an eleventh time in 1 Cor 15:55, but this is a corrupt reading.

Perhaps the best way to clarify what the New Testament teaches about Hades is to first of all state what Hades does not mean. Once we have cleared away any misconceptions of this word, then we can present its meaning in the New Testament.

First, Hades does not mean death, because the Greek word thanatos is the word for death in the New Testament. Also, Hades and death appear together in such passages as Rev 1:18 where they cannot be viewed as synonyms...

i) [Rev 1:18]:

"I am the Loving One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

Second, Hades is not the grave, because the Greek word mneema is the word for grave in the New Testament. Also, all the arguments which demonstrated that Sheol cannot mean the grave apply equally to Hades seeing that Hades is the equivalent for the Hebrew word Sheol. The New Testament's dependence upon the Septuagint demonstrates this point.

Third, Hades is not 'hell,' i.e., the place of final punishment for the wicked, because the Greek word Gehenna is the word for 'hell' in the New Testament.

Fourth, Hades is not 'heaven,' i.e., the place where the soul of the righteous goes at death to await the coming resurrection, because the Greek word ouranos is the word for heaven in the New Testament.

Fifth, Hades is not the place of eternal bliss for the righteous after the resurrection, because the new heavens and the new earth or the everlasting kingdom refer to this place (Matt 24:34; Rev 21:1).

Having clarified what Hades does not mean, we can now state the New Testament meaning of this crucial word.

First, we must once again emphasize the importance of the principle of progressive revelation....

...The New Testament picks up where the Old Testament left off by progressively developing the concept of what happens to the soul of man after death.

ii) [Compare Luke 16:19-31]

The rich man was directly said to be 'in Hades' (v. 23), the phrase 'Abraham's bosom' to which the angels carried Lazarus (vv. 22,23) must be interpreted as the section of Hades reserved for the righteous.....

During the intertestamental period, the Jewish concept of Sheol had progressed to the stage where it was believed that Sheol had two distinct compartments, or sections. One section was a place of torment to which the wicked went while the other was a place of conscious bliss, often called 'Abraham's bosom' or 'paradise,' to which the righteous were carried by angels...."

Compare our Lord's account of Lazarus and the rich man in Hades which testifies to the accuracy of the rabbinic understanding of Sheol:

[Lk 16:19-31]:

(v. 19) "[Jesus said, (v. 15)] Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day.

(v. 20) And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

(v. 21) and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

(v. 22) Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom

[Abraham's bosom was an expression which referred to the paradise compartment in Hades, the place where those who had hte faith of Abraham dwelled until they were to occupy the kingdom of heaven]

and the rich man also died and was buried.

(v. 23) And in Hades he lifted up his eyes,

[Notice that our Lord is indicating here in this account that there is a fully functioning consciousness after death, a bliss for those who are declared righteous and torment for those who are not. And the rest of the passages confirms this]:

being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(v. 24) And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'

(v. 25) But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

(v. 26) And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' "

Although Old Testament saints did not have as much information about the afterlife as the New Testament revelation provided later on, it does not follow that the word Sheol, the Hebrew O.T. word for the place one resides in the afterlife, referred to something different or less than what the word Hades referred to in the N.T., any more than it does when one refers to one's car at one time as a sedan and a '99 Ford Taurus at another. They both refer to the same thing, one reference being more specific than the other.

Although this passage in Luke shows a characteristic of an O.T. historical account, for the beggar's name was specifically given as a proper name - not a symbollic one: "a certain poor man named Lazarus". And since, the passage refers to yet another O. T. historical individual: "Father Abraham". And since all attempts to treat this as a completely symbollic parable that teaches anything but death or the afterlife end up in farfetched interpretations that violate clear doctrinal passages on these subjects; consider another option which best fits the rest of Scripture and has precedent in the rabbinical literary form of Jesus' day:

[Morey op. cit., pp. 85-87]:

"The rabbinic literature before, during, and after the time of Christ is filled with parables which built imaginative stories around real historical characters. There are multiple examples in the Talmud and Midrash of parables in which Abraham had dialogues with people such as Nimrod, with whom he could never have spoken literally. Everyone understood that these parables and dialogues did not literally take place.

[Yet what was being taught by the fictitious account was indeed literal]

It was understood that the rabbis used imaginative stories and dialogues as a teaching method. It was understood by all that these dialogues never took place...

...Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue in Luke 16:19-31 which was not 'true' or 'real' in the sense of being literal [in a historical sense, but literal indeed in what it is teaching]. It is obvious that Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which literal water could quench.

What is important for us to grasp is that Christ used the mental images conjured up by this rabbinic parable to teach that, in the hereafter, the wicked experience torment and the righteous bliss. This is clear from the rabbinic sources from which he drew this parable.

Since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was a teaching tool used by the rabbis before Christ, it is obvious that Christ was not trying to teach that we will talk with the wicked in the hereafter. He was merely using the dialogue method to get across the concept that there is no escape from torment, no second chance, and we must believe the Scriptures in this life unto salvation."

[Morey, cont.]:

"Before Christ's ascension, believers as well as unbelievers were said to enter Sheol or Hades. After Christ's ascension, the New Testament pictures believers after death as entering heaven to be with Christ...(Phil 1:23), which is far better than Hades.

iii) [Compare Jn 3:13]:
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the One Who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

Notice that "No one has ever gone into heaven"= No Old Testament saint had as yet occupied heaven after they died, yet there is evidence in Scripture that O.T. saints did occupy some place after they did die. After the cross, Scripture indicates that believers occupied heaven:

iv) [Phil 1:23-24]:

(v. 23) "I [Paul] am torn between the two: [duty on earth or going to be with the Lord in heaven, (vv. 21-22)]: I desire to depart and be with Christ [Who is at this moment in heaven], which is better by far;

(v. 24) but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

[Morey, cont.]:
"[So believers] are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8), worshipping with the angelic hosts of heaven (Heb 12:22, 23) at the altar of God (Rev 6:9-11). Thus believers do not now enter Hades but ascend immediately to the throne of God....

[ on the believer's immediate destiny in heaven when he dies]

...That Christ went to Hades, i.e., the world beyond death, is clear from Acts 2:31."

v) [Compare Acts 2:31]:

"He [David, (v. 29) looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades ["hadou" = Hades], nor did His flesh see decay.

[Notice that this indicates that our Lord did go to Hades]

To Jews at that time it was on the 4th day that corruption set in thus revealing most unequivocally that our Savior’s human soul was in Hades while His body lay in the sepulcher, He ascending out of Hades to receive His body instead of descending down from heaven. Ephesians 4:8-10 vividly describes the descension of our Lord "into the lower parts of the earth," which never could mean the sepulcher or grave in which He was deposited. It is not in the lower parts of the earth, but on the surface, excavated out of a great rock in the mountain side, and entered horizontally. No grave is in the "lower parts of the earth," much less our Savior’s sepulcher.

Furthermore, Paradise was not in heaven before the cross, for Jesus testified to the women on the morning He was resurrected that He had not yet gone up to His Father, (Jn 20:15-18), whereas He had met the thief in Paradise on the preceding Wednesday."

vi) [Compare Jn 20:15-18]:
(v. 15) ''' "[Jesus said] 'Woman,' He said, 'why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?' Thinking He was the gardener, she [Mary Magdalene] said, 'Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have put Him, and I will get Him.'
(v. 16) Jesus said to her, 'Mary.' She turned toward Him and cried out in Aramaic, 'Rabboni!' (which means Teacher).
(v. 17) Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father [in heaven]. Go instead to My brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.' " '''

(Note: our Lord was crucified on the Passover Sabbath Wednesday:.. on the crucifixion/resurrection chronology)"

vii) [Compare Luke 23:43]:

"Jesus answered him [the thief on the cross, (v. 40)], 'I tell you the truth, today [Wednesday the Passover Sabbath] you will be with Me in paradise.' "

[Morey, cont.]: )
"While 'paradise' in the gospel account (Luke 23:43) referred to the section of Hades reserved for the righteous [before the cross], by the time Paul wrote 2 Cor 12:2-4 paradise had been taken out of Hades and was now placed in the third heaven.

viii) [Compare 2 Cor 12:2-4]:
(v. 2) "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows -
(v. 4) was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

[Morey, cont.]:
"According to the post-resurrection teaching in the New Testament, the believer now goes to heaven at death to await the coming resurrection and the eternal state. But, what of the wicked? The wicked at death descend into Hades which is a place of temporary torment while they await the coming resurrection and their eternal punishment.

First, it is clear that the souls of the wicked are in torment during the intermediate state in Hades. The Apostle Peter stated this in language which could not be clearer:

ix) [2 Pet 2:9]:

"Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."

First, Peter says that the wicked are 'kept' unto the day of judgment. This word ['kept'] is in the present, active, infinitive form, which means that the wicked are being held captive continuously. If the wicked merely pass into nonexistence at death, there would be nothing left to be 'kept' unto the day of judgment. Obviously, Peter is grammatically picturing the wicked as being guarded like prisoners in a jail until the day of final judgment.

Second, Peter says that the wicked are 'being tormented.' This word is in the present, passive, participle form and means that the wicked are continuously being tormented as an on-going activity.

If Peter wanted to teach that the wicked receive their full punishment at death by passing into nonexistence, then he would have used the aorist tense. Instead, he uses those Greek tenses which were the only ones available to him in the Greek language to express conscious, continuous torment. The grammar of the text irrefutably establishes that the wicked are in torment while they await their final day of judgment.

When the day of judgment arrives, Hades will be emptied of its inhabitants, and the wicked will stand before God for their final sentence....

x) [Rev 20:13-15]:

(v. 13) "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

(v. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death.

(v. 15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire."

Thus, we conclude that Hades is the temporary intermediate state between death and the resurrection where the wicked are in conscious torment. Hades without Paradise, i.e., without the O.T. saints will thus be emptied into the Lake of Fire at the resurrection of all unbelievers, and then the wicked will be cast into 'hell' (Gehenna).

b) PARADISE

i) PARADISE IN HADES
i_a) [Lk 16:19-31]:

(v. 19) "[Jesus said, (v. 15)] Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day.

(v. 20) And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

(v. 21) and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

(v. 22) Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

[Abraham's bosom was an expression which referred to the paradise compartment in Hades, the place where those who had the faith of Abraham dwelled until they were to occupy the kingdom of heaven]; and the rich man also died and was buried.

(v. 23) And in Hades he lifted up his eyes,

[Notice that our Lord is indicating here in this account that there is a fully functioning consciousness after death, a bliss for those who are declared righteous and torment for those who are not. And the rest of the passages confirms this]:

being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(v. 24) And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'

(v. 25) But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

(v. 26) And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' "

What is important for us to grasp is that Christ used the mental images conjured up by this rabbinic parable to teach that, in the hereafter, the wicked experience torment and the righteous bliss. This is clear from the rabbinic sources from which he drew this parable.

Since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was a teaching tool used by the rabbis before Christ, it is obvious that Christ was not trying to teach that we will talk with the wicked in the hereafter. He was merely using the dialogue method to get across the concept that there is no escape from torment, no second chance, and we must believe the Scriptures in this life unto salvation."

[Morey, cont.]:

"Before Christ's ascension, believers as well as unbelievers were said to enter Sheol or Hades. After Christ's ascension, the New Testament pictures believers after death as entering heaven to be with Christ...(Phil 1:23), which is far better than Hades.

i_b) [Compare Jn 3:13]:
"No one has ever gone into heaven except the One Who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

Notice that 'No one has ever gone into heaven' = Since this statement was made by our Lord at the tiem of His three year ministry on earth, we can conclude that no Old Testament saint had as yet occupied heaven after they died.

[Morey, cont.]:

"That Christ went to Hades, i.e., the world beyond death, is clear from Acts 2:31."

i_c) [Compare Acts 2:31]:

"He [David, (v. 29) looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades ["hadou" = Hades], nor did His flesh see decay.

[Notice that this indicates that our Lord did go to Hades]

To Jews at that time it was on the 4th day that corruption set in thus revealing most unequivocally that our Savior’s human soul was in Hades while His body lay in the sepulcher, He ascending out of Hades to receive His body instead of descending down from heaven. Ephesians 4:8-10 vividly describes the descension of our Lord "into the lower parts of the earth," which never could mean the sepulcher or grave in which He was deposited. It is not in the lower parts of the earth, but on the surface, excavated out of a great rock in the mountain side, and entered horizontally. No grave is in the "lower parts of the earth," much less our Savior’s sepulcher.

Furthermore, paradise was not in heaven before the cross, for Jesus testified to the women on the morning He was resurrected that He had not yet gone up to His Father, (Jn 20:15-18), whereas He had met the thief in Paradise on the preceding Wednesday."

i_d) [Compare Luke 23:43]:

"Jesus answered him [the thief on the cross, (v. 40)], 'I tell you the truth, today [Wednesday the Passover Sabbath] you will be with Me in paradise.' "

[Note: our Lord was crucified on the Passover Sabbath Wednesday:.. on the crucifixion/resurrection chronology]

i_e) [Compare Jn 20:15-18]:
(v. 15) ''' "[Jesus said] 'Woman,' He said, 'why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?' Thinking He was the gardener, she [Mary Magdalene] said, 'Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have put Him, and I will get Him.'
(v. 16) Jesus said to her, 'Mary.' She turned toward Him and cried out in Aramaic, 'Rabboni!' (which means Teacher).
(v. 17) Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father [in heaven]. Go instead to My brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.' " '''

[Morey, cont.]:
"While 'paradise' in the gospel account (Luke 23:43) referred to the section of Hades reserved for the righteous [before the cross], by the time Paul wrote 2 Cor 12:2-4 paradise had been taken out of Hades and was now placed in the third bn heaven.

i_f) [Compare 2 Cor 12:2-4]:
(v. 2) "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows -
(v. 4) was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

[Morey, cont.]:
"According to the post-resurrection teaching in the New Testament, the believer now goes to heaven at death to await the coming resurrection and the eternal state.

i_g) [Phil 1:23-24]:

(v. 23) "I [Paul] am torn between the two: [duty on earth or going to be with the Lord in heaven, (vv. 21-22)]: I desire to depart and be with Christ [Who is at this moment in heaven], which is better by far;

(v. 24) but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

[Morey, cont.]:
[So believers] are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8), worshipping with the angelic hosts of heaven (Heb 12:22, 23) at the altar of God (Rev 6:9-11). Thus believers do not now enter Hades but ascend immediately to the throne of God....

[ on the believer's immediate destiny in heaven when he dies]

c) OUR LORD DESCENDED TO HADES INTO PARADISE AND BROUGHT THE OLD TESTAMENT TIME BELIEVERS TO HEAVEN WITH HIM

i) [Ps 68:17-18 NAS]:

(v. 17) "The chariots of God are myriads, thousands upon thousands; The LORD is among them as at Sinai, in holiness.

[NIV: The chariots of God are tens of thousands and thousands of thousands; the LORD has come from Sinai into His sanctuary]

(v. 18) Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive Thy captives; Thou hast received gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there."

ii) [Compare Eph 4:7-10]:

(v. 7) "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

(v. 8) Therefore it says, [cf. Ps 68:18]

'When He ascended on high [to heaven],

He led captive a host of captives,

[O.T. saints were held 'captive' in the Paradise compartment in Hades who were saved on credit, (Ro 3:25-26). They were held 'captive' there awaiting our Lord's atonement for them so that He could then lead them 'captive', i.e., in a group, into heaven]

And He gave gifts to men.

[Refers to spiritual gifts, (ref. Eph 4:11-14)]

(v. 9) (What does 'He ascended' mean except that He also descended to the lower, earthly regions"

['descended to the lower, earthly regions' = descended to where Hades/Paradise is located - in order to take 'captive' the O.T. saints held their in 'captivity' until our Lord came for them to ascend with them to heaven]:

(v. 10) He Who descended is the very One Who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe).

"He led captive a host of captives" = lit. "He led captive captivity", i.e., he went to those in Hades/Paradise who were captive in the sense of being restricted to Paradise and led them in a captive group to heaven with Him. Since the verb in the Greek, "EchmalOteusen" = [str. # 162] = led captive, [Pershbacher] then this is best interpreted as an actual leading of a specific group of individuals who were already in captivity in a captive group from one destination to another. This is preferred to the concept of interpreting it as the setting free [different verb] of all mankind from Satan's captivity by redeeming them from the slave market of sin. (Although Scripture indeed teaches the latter as a truth, it is not in view here in Eph 4:7-10).

Paul reflects on Psalm 68 of which verses 17-18 are quoted above - which passage indicates that a military victor such as the LORD God over His and Israel's enemies, gives gifts to those who are identified with him in His victory. This time it is about our Lord's victory over sin through His redemptive work on the cross as a result of which He set the specific captives free in Paradise/Hades by redeeming them from the slave market of sin and then leading them in a captive group to heaven where He ascended to. The parenthetical statement in verses 9 & 10 indicate our Lord's descent into the depths of the earth, i.e., Hades/Paradise where He led them captive to Heaven. The OT saints from Paradise were captive in the sense of being confined there under the promise of Abraham of eternal life until they could be released for entrance into heaven when that promise was fulfulled through the Seed of Abraham via our Lord's sacrificial atonement for the sins of the whole world. So our Lord ascended with the 'captives' into heaven, having fulfilled the promise.

iii) [Compare Mt 8:11]:

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven."

Notice that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all OT saints who occupied Paradise/Hades after they died, are destined for the kingdom of heaven.

iv) [Compare Rev 20:14-15]:

(v. 14) "Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death.

(v. 15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire."

[THE AGES DIGITAL LIBRARY HOLINESS COMMENTARY COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT VOL. 2 HEBREWS - JUDE by Rev. W. B. Godbey, A.M. B o o k s F o r T h e A g e s AGES Software Albany, OR USA Version 1.0 © 1997, pp. 196-7]:

"On Sunday morning begins that wonderful ascension (Ephesians 4:8-10), in which He leads captive all the occupants of Abraham’s Bosom, now that the Abramic covenant has been verified, and sealed with His blood, thus opening heaven to all the blood-washed. Wonderful is the rapture of that triumphant ascension, accompanied by all the Old Testament saints. He comes up to the sepulcher and receives His body on the third morn. As this mighty host of Old Testament saints were all disembodied, of course they were invisible to mortal eyes. Jesus, the only one seen, because He only had His body. Meanwhile this mighty host accompany Him in His abiding forty days with His disciples, and constitute His triumphal procession when from Mount Olivet He ascended up to the glorified home of His Father in heaven. Jesus must be the first fruits of them that slept. His glorified body, the eternal confirmation of the redemptive scheme, must first of all enter heaven. Though a number of others were raised from the dead before Christ, we have no evidence that their bodies were transfigured. Hence Jesus was the first one to raise from the dead, receiving the resurrection body. It was pertinent that all the Old Testament saints should be detained in that Intermediate Paradise till the plan of salvation was literally consummated by the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. David (Psalms 24) catches a prophetic vision of this wonderful ascension. Having risen from Mount Olivet with the velocity of lightning, they sweep through ethereal space, passing rolling worlds, glittering sphere, luminous comets and flaming suns, till now the celestial metropolis, in its ineffable glory, bursts upon their enraptured vision.

v) [Ps. 24:7-10]:

(v. 7) "Lift up your heads, O you gates;

be lifted up you ancient doors,

that the King of glory may come in.

(v. 8) Who is this King of glory?

The LORD strong and mighty,

the LORD mighty in battle.

(v. 9) Lift up your heads O ye gates,

lift them up, you ancient doors,

that the King of glory may come in.

(v. 10) Who is He, this King of glory?

The LORD Almighty - He is the King of glory."

The celestial portals all open wide, while millions of angels pour out to greet them with loud shouts: "Welcome home, ye blood-washed." Now the King of glory entered amid the enraptured songs of the seraphim, the thrilling paeans of the cherubim, the golden harps of the archangel and the tremendous hallelujahs of the heavenly hosts, accompanied by the innumerable procession of the Old Testament saints, on and on they sweep around the clarion jubilations of countless millions, till halting before the effulgent throne, the Son salutes the Father: "Behold, I and the children whom Thou hast given me." Such a testimony meeting as heaven has never seen now follows. Father Abraham leads the way, followed by Job, Moses, Joshua, Daniel, the prophets, patriarchs, saints and martyrs, to the ravishing delight of the angels."

d) ENOCH AND ELIJAH ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS TO JN 3:13 - NO MAN WAS IN HEAVEN UNTIL OUR LORD ASCENDED IN HIS RESURRECTION

i) [Gen 5:21-24]:

(v. 21) When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah.

(v. 22) And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters.

(v. 23) Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.

(v. 24) Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

ii) [Heb 11:5]:

"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

iii) [2 Kings 2:11]:

"As they [Elijah and Elisha] were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

[Godbey, cont.]

"But, beside the fact of these examples being out of the common order, it does not follow of course that because Enoch was taken to God, he was translated into the highest heaven. For the word "Heaven" is very wide in its signification. The same observation applies to Elijah.

iv) [1 Cor 15:20]:

"Christ is now become the first fruits of them that slept."

This would not appear to be correct, if Enoch and Elijah ascended into the highest Heaven, clothed in bodies endued with immortality."

v) [Compare Jn 3:13]:

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the One Who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

[This was spoken by our Lord at the time of His 3 year ministry on earth, indicating that no man had as yet gone to heaven]

e) PARADISE IN HEAVEN

While Paul lay dead under the shower of stones at Lystra, he ascended up to the third heaven, (i.e., to heaven proper, as the firmament is the first heaven, astronomical worlds the second, and the home of the glorified the third). This third heaven is also Paradise [2 Corinthians 12:2-4]. Of course the thief did not go to this Paradise, but to Abraham’s Bosom, the Intermediate Paradise.

f) CONCLUSION

Since OT saints are to occupy the kingdom of heaven,

and since the OT saints did go to Paradise/Hades when they died,

then the OT saints will be taken from Paradise/Hades to the kingdom before Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Since our Lord's sacrifice for sins has paved the way for OT saints to be taken to heaven,

and since NT saints themselves go immediately to be with the Lord in heaven,

and since our Lord descended to Paradise on Wednesday when He died on the cross and did not ascend to heaven until after that

then there is strong reason to believe that our Lord Himself took the O.T. saints from Hades to heaven with Him at His resurrection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the sequence of which I believe happened

1. Prophecy by Isaiah -- Isa. 61:1
2. Jesus tells the thief on the cross that they will be together in Paradise that day. (not in Heaven) - Luke 23:43
3. The veil of the temple was torn open when Jesus died, showing us that we now have direct access to God ourselves. The New Testament (Covenant) - Mt. 27:51
4. The graves of the saints around Jerusalem opened up when Jesus died - Mt. 27:52
5. Jesus went into hell, which is in the lower parts of the Earth - Eph. 4: 9-10
6. The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. - Jn. 5:25
7. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. The dead - 1Pe. 3:19; 4:6
8. Jesus holds the keys to death and hell. (Jesus took the keys away from Satan.) - Rev. 1:18
9. Christ will not stay in hell - Acts 2:27, 31
10. Jesus rises from the dead. (comes out of hell) - Mk. 16:6
11. The people came out of the graves that were opened AFTER Jesus rose from the dead, and walked in the city. - Mt. 27:53
12. Jesus shows himself but has not yet gone into heaven - John 20:17
13. Jesus now goes into heaven - Mk. 16:19

This is a debate that has been going on for ages /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I'd like to hear your concluding thoughts! Good discussion! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Venom

01-09-2005, 12:12 PM

It has also been my belief that Christ descended into hell. I will try and present what my thoughts are on the matter are, and maybe that will help.

I believe this post was quoted, but it may be useful, Where was Jesus during the three days after His death? (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=713873&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

Its clear that animal sacrifices could never cleanse sin (Hebrews 8:7-13; 9:1-15; 10:1-12,18-20; Psalms 40:6; Hebrews 9:9; 10:1-11).

I see animal sacrifices had several reasons such as acknowledging their sins (Hebrews 10:3), showing faith of a coming Saviour (Hebrews 11:4,17,28), a shadow of things to come (1 Corinthians 5:7; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:1,11,12), among others. But I don’t see it purifying anyone from sin. I don’t see any way to get around this verse:, “but it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins;”

Here is a quote from, Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible offering an explanation for animal sacrifice:

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Though the burnt-offerings had not respect to any particular sin, as the sin-offering had, yet they were to make atonement for sin in general; and he that laid his hand on the head of a burnt-offering was to confess that he had left undone what he ought to have done and had done that which he ought not to have done, and to pray that, though he deserved to die himself, the death of his sacrifice might be accepted for the expiating of his guilt...This signified that our Lord Jesus was to make his soul, or life, an offering for sin..It also signified the pacifying and purifying of our consciences by the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ upon them by faith, 1 Pt. 1:2; Heb. 10:22. 7. "But to what purpose,’’ would some say, "was this waste? Why should all this good meat, which might have been given to the poor, and have served their hungry families for food a great while, be burnt together to ashes?’’ So was the will of God; and it is not for us to object or to find fault with it. When it was burnt for the honour of God, in obedience to his command, and to signify spiritual blessings, it was really better bestowed, and better answered the end of its creation, than when it was used as food for man. We must never reckon that lost which is laid out for God. The burning of the sacrifice signified the sharp sufferings of Christ, and the devout affections with which, as a holy fire, Christians must offer up themselves their whole spirit, soul, and body, unto God.

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Here is another comment by John Gill's Exposition of the Bible:

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but it is impossible
that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins;
which was shed on the day of atonement: sin is a breach of the moral law, but these sacrifices belong to, the ceremonial law, which are less acceptable to God than moral duties; sin is committed against God, and has an objective infiniteness in it, and therefore can never be atoned for by the blood of such creatures; it leaves a stain on the mind and conscience, which this blood cannot reach; besides, this is not the same blood, nor of the same kind with the person that has sinned; yea, if this could take away sin, it would do more than the blood of the man himself could do; such blood shed can never answer the penalty of the law, satisfy divine justice, or secure the honour of divine holiness: but what the blood of these creatures could not do, the blood of Christ has done, and does: that takes away sin from the sight of justice, and from the consciences of the saints. Compare with this the Septuagint version of (Jeremiah 11:15) .
``what, has the beloved committed abomination in my house? shall prayers, and the holy flesh take away thy wickednesses from thee, or by these shall thou escape?''

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Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible:

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The "daily" sacrifices are referred to, Hebrews 10:11.
continually--Greek, "continuously," implying that they offer a toilsome and ineffectual "continuous" round of the "same" atonement-sacrifices recurring "year by year."
comers thereunto--those so coming unto God, namely, the worshippers (the whole people) coming to God in the person of their representative, the high priest.
perfect--fully meet man's needs as to justification and sanctification
2. For--if the law could, by its sacrifices, have perfected the worshippers.
they--the sacrifices.
once purged--IF they were once for all cleansed (Hebrews 7:27).
conscience--"consciousness of sin" (Hebrews 9:9).

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As stated above, atonement is defined as:

1. to cover,
a. (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
b. (Piel)
1. to cover over, pacify, propitiate
2. to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
3. to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
c. (Pual)
1. to be covered over
2. to make atonement for
d. (Hithpael) to be covered

Pretty much to cover.

I believe this is quoted above, but Jack Van Impe postulates that animal sacrifices (atonements) simply covered sins, they did not rid individuals of them, only Christ could do that.

Isaiah 1:16-20
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve F8 the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isaiha 53
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded F243 for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid F244 on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison F245 and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; F246 because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Revelation 1:3-8
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:13-17
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A lot of what I will say next will be review of what Adam said and the links given above, but I hope it helps to add some insight.

I think the following at least supports this theory. So what would help is to explain these verses outside of this theory. Because a lot don’t seem to make much sense, to me, otherwise. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

First, I think this verse is interesting.

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If taken literally, I believe this at least fits very nicely with the theory were supporting.

I think that there is some good evidence that this is a literal event, and not figurative. I assume the arguments for this have been read, so I wont get into that.

This is another verse that is used in support of this theory.

Eph 4:9
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Here is an explaination by John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

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what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of
the earth?
this the Papists understand of his decent into a place they call Limbus Patrum, which they make to be contiguous to hell; and where they say the patriarchs were detained till Christ's coming; and that he went thither to deliver them out of it; and that these are the captivity he led captive; all which is fictitious and fabulous: for certain it is, that the place where Abraham was with Lazarus in his bosom was not near to hell, but afar off, and that there was a great gulf between them, (Luke 16:23,26)

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This verse follows up on this:

1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

If this is a correct interpretation, I am not sure exactly what he preached as it does not say. Jack postulates that he told the ones on the suffering side why they were there.

If this is not correct, any ideas on the meaning of this verse?

Then, it is thought that he led the ones on the comfort side to heaven—leading captivity captive.

Eph 4:8
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ps 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

And now it is thought that the unsaved are still in hades in the torment side, while the comfort side has been vacated. And all that are saved now, as Paul says, “to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.”

Now, the question obviously arises why the saints could not just go into the third heaven? This would be because there sins had never been taken away. As stated above, atone in the O.T was from the Hebrew word “Kaphar” which means to cover. Thus, the O.T saints did not have their sins removed—simply covered.

Basically, the people offering animal sacrifices new that would not cut it “For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.” If it did cut it, they would not as Paul said, “1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.” As explained above, it had many perposes, such as sympolic, and a display of faith.

With this in mind, I do not see how they could be in heaven in the presence of God. Sinners cannot inherit heaven:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Fortunately, our sins have been completely vanquished because of Christ, so we can.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

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I think that unless one assumes shoel means also a place of torment in the old testament, many passages make no sense,

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Yup, Jack clears this up:

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We want to continue our study on hell vs. gehenna and this week we will see that the Bible clearly teaches that there is a literal hell.

False religionists have hatched the "no-hell" plot to gain adherence to their movements. Because multitudes--even 70 percent of the preachers-no longer believe or like to even consider that such a place exists, a new group can grow quickly if they, discount the claims of the Holy Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ by preaching pleasing platitudes which cater to rebellious minds. But Romans 3:4 says, Let God be true, but every man a liar. I don't care if every human being or preacher says, "I do not believe it." When I can find it 162 times in my New Testament, I will believe it! It is the Word-we must believe it!

A popular trend today is to take the Hebrew words sheol and the Greek words hades and gehenna and state that they all mean the grave, though they are translated "hell" in the Word of God in the majority of instances. Let's take the Old Testament Hebrew word sheol. Why would God have to use this word to picture a grave when the Hebrew word queber logically depicts and portrays it? Consider the following five points in the Old Testament:

1. The body never goes to sheol but goes to queber 37 times. Why? Because queber is the grave for bodies and sheol is the place for departed spirits.

2. Sheol is never on the face of the earth but queber is located there 32 times. Why? Because graves are on the earth. Sheol, the place for departed spirits, is in some other realm of God's creation.

3. Man never puts another man into sheol but he does put a man into a queber 33 times. Why? Because man has the power to put other men into graves but does not have the power to put souls into sheol.

4. Man never digs or makes a sheol but he makes and digs a queber six times. Why? Because man has the power to make a grave but he does not have the power to make a sheol for departed spirits.

5.Man never speaks of a man as touching sheol, but he touches a queber five times. Why? Because, again, it is a grave on the earth and he has the power to touch it. But he has no power to do anything about sheol, the place for departed spirits.

To look at all the Old Testament instances involving sheol would take months of study. Besides, Christ has brought to light, life, and immortality-that which has to do with a never-dying soul-through the gospel or the New Testament (see 2 Timothy 1:10). Therefore, let's study hades and gehenna and see if they mean the grave or the place of eternal suffering.

You may ask, "Why did the Lord Jesus use two words-hades and gehenna? Are there two places?" Yes. Do you wish to know why?

Let me illustrate it this way: All of us know the difference between a local jail and a penitentiary. If a man is taken in a crime, he is not put into the penitentiary until he has had a trial. When he has had his trial and is found guilty, he is transferred to the penitentiary. Get this next statement, for it is so important to a direct understanding of the Bible subject of hell. When Jesus uses the word hades, He is referring to the local jail, the place where the sinner is held until the judgment morning. Then, at Judgment Day, all sinners come out of the local jail (hades), appear before the Judge, are found guilty, and then transferred to gehenna, the final penitentiary for souls.

Let me also add that the term gehenna is synonymous with the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:13, 14: The sea gave up the dead which were in it: and death and [hades-that is the Greek word for hell] delivered up the dead ...And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire [gehenna]. This is the second death. l repeat that hades is the local jail and, gehenna, the final penitentiary. Any sinner who dies, even at this hour, does not go to gehenna, but to hades, where the rich man is located (see Luke 16:23). At Judgment Day, he comes out of hades, meets Christ at the trial, and then is transferred to the final penitentiary of lost souls--gehenna.

Let's consider eleven instances Christ uses in the New Testament to depict and describe hades--the temporary local jail.

Matthew 11:23: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell. That is the Greek word hades, where the rich man of Luke 16:23 is located.

Matthew 16:18: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock l will build my church; and the gates of hell [hades] shall not prevail against it.

Luke 10:15: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell [hades].

Luke 16:22, 23: The rich man also died, and was buried: And in hell [hades] he lifted his eyes, being in torments.

Acts 2:27: Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [hades].

Acts 2:31: His soul was not left in hell [hades].

1 Corinthians 15:55: O death [hades], where is thy victory. Revelation 1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [hades] and of death.

Revelation 6:8: Death and Hell [hades] followed with him.

Revelation 20:13, 14, Death and hell [hades] delivered up the dead which were in them ...And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire.

Plain isn't it? After sinners were judged, death and hades were cast into the final penitentiary-gehenna--synonymous with the Lake of Fire.

Gehenna differs from hades in that gehenna is a place where there are degrees of suffering. After one is judged, after he has been examined as to how much light he experienced, how often he heard the gospel, and rejected it, he is assigned to degrees of punishment in the final penitentiary. Romans 2:5 proves this statement, After thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up [stores up, saves up] unto thyself wrath... [administered in gehenna, the penitentiary].

Gehenna is used by Christ 12 times:

Matthew 5:22: Whosoever shall say Thou, fool, shall be in danger of hell [gehenna] fire. Let us put the cultists substitute there--grave--for they say hell is the grave. Jesus would then be saying, "Sinners shall be in danger of grave fire." That must be strange fire in the grave-I have never heard of it, have you! So Jesus must not be talking about a grave.

Matthew 5:29, 30: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it, from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [gehenna].

Matthew 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna].

Matthew 18:9: And if thine eye offend then, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better, for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire [gehenna].

Matthew 23:15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte [convert], and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell [gehenna] than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33: Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the ****ation of hell [gehenna]?

In Mark 9:43-47, Jesus says, if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy, foot offend thee, cut it of: it is better for thee to enter half into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [gehenna], into the fire, that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eves to be cast into hell [gehenna] fire.

Every time Jesus mentions this place, gehenna, He always says it is the place where the worm dieth not and the fire is never quenched (see Mark 9:44, 40, 48). Do not let some cultist tell you this is the grave when the Word of God makes it explicitly clear that this is a place where there is agony, suffering, burning, where the memory dies not, and where the fires never cease.

Luke 12:5: I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Then in James 3:6, He says, The tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell [gehenna].

Thus we discover there are eleven passages concerning hades, and twelve passages concerning gehenna. Hades is the local jail where the sinner awaits the judgment morning. At that time he comes out, is judged, and then is transferred to gehenna. Do not let any false religionist, any cultist, tell you that is merely a grave. Hear me, my friend. When Jesus stood on this earth, He pointed to the Valley of Hinnom. In the Old Testament it was a place of sacrifice to pagan gods. In the New Testament it became the garbage dump. The fire burned 24 hours a day to get rid of all the refuse, and Jesus said that hell was going to be like the fires at the Valley of Hinnom.

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Here is another quote from Jack

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Jack Van Impe's Dictionary of Prophecy Terms

HADES [N] [S]

Hades was the place where the souls and the spirits of all humans went until the cross. Sheol (Old Testament) and Hades (New Testament) are one and the same. In Sheol or Hades there were two compartments, one for the wicked and the other for the righteous …one for suffering and the other for comfort (Luke 16:22,23). The thief on the cross went to the comfort side, or Paradise, as promised by Christ (Luke 23:43) (Abraham’s Bosom). This is where Christ went upon His death (see Acts 2:27,31). There He ministered to His people and led captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8-10), releasing and transporting them into the third heaven of 2 Corinthians 12:2. That is why Paradise is referred to as "up" (Revelation 2:7; 2 Corinthians 12:4). So presently, the comfort side of Hades (Paradise) has been emptied by Him who has the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 20:13).

Of course, the suffering side of Hades still teems with the wicked as the unregenerate continue to die day by day and are added to its population. They have joined the rich man of Luke 16:23 and will not come out again until Judgment Day when they will meet Christ at their trial and be transferred to the final penitentiary of lost souls, Gehenna (Revelation 20:13,14). Christ describes Hades 11 times in the New Testament: Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:22,23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14.

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From my experience, iIf you do not interpret Sheol as hell, then numerous verse make no sense at all in the O.T. I wrote a post on this a while ago, giving a bunch of examples, but I cannot find it now. I’ll see if I can.

Even if I did not use Sheol as evidence, there are numerous scriptures In the O.T that discus the after life. Consider these:

Isaiah 66: 22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Isaiah 14:4-21
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Christ pretty much directly quotes this:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Its pretty clear Isaiah talking about the after life here.

I can show many more, and even more about heaven. This is another good one:

Isaiah 26:12-19
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Paul quotes this:

Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Anyway, here is another interesting verse in John:

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Lu 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Since he went to paradise, where would this be if he did not go to heaven with is father? Innless this is purely referring to when Jesus goes into heaven in Mk. 16:19, and he did in fact go to heaven earlier. But that does not make much sense to say to me if that is the case.

Within the other theory, this would mean that he went to the comfort side of Hades (paradise) and then ascended up.

This is another good verse:

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me F4 freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I assume this would be interpreted as the grave (?) ; however, it again is consistent with this doctrine; and the sheol comment was discussed above. Any other refutation here may help.

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The curtain was the veil of the temple that seperated the Holy of Holies from the Inner Court. Only the High Priest could enter into God's presence in the Holy of Holies. By it being torn, it showed Christ has entered into the Holy places and comes to God on our behalf. God's presence was now open. Through Christ we can all come to God and stand bold before the throne of Grace.

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I think this is a nice verse:

Hebrews 10:19-39
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews 9: 1 – 28
1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances F25 of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. F26 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, F27 imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot F28 to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

That is it for now. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tuf

01-09-2005, 01:50 PM

Thanks, OS and Venom. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think Christ did descend into hades? If not what do you do with all the verses that (I would say) indicate He did so? And if He did what did He do there?

[/ QUOTE ]
That is my real question here. I of course believe that Christ is our only means of salvation, that he was the unblemished sacrifice and is our High Priest, that the OT sacrificial system was a symbolic foreshadowing of what was to come, and that Christ’s sacrifice was superior to and rendered the OT sacrificial system obsolete. None of those issues are in question--we do not disagree about most of the issues being discussed.

About Christ descending into hell, that is the one issue in this conversation I don’t know if I agree with you about. That is why I engaged in this dissussion further after my initial post.

In my studies thus far, I am inclined to believe that he did not. Here are some things I studied in my Systematic Theology classes that compell me to believe that:

First, the phrase “he descended into hell” is not in the Bible. It wasn’t even found in any of the early versions of the Apolstles’ Creed. Rufinus, the only person who included it in the creed before A.D. 650, didn’t even think that it meant that Christ descended into hell. He understood it to men that Christ was “buried.” In other words, that Christ “descended into the grave.”

And then the evidence in Scripture doesn't seem to me to clearly indicate that he descended into hell.
[ QUOTE ]
Romans 10:6-11
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

[/ QUOTE ]
In this passage Paul is telling people not to ask those questions because Christ is near and faith in him is as near as confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart. Those questions were prohibited because they were questions of unbelief rather than assertions of what Scripture teaches. Also, in that passage Paul uses the word “deep” (abyssos) as a contrast to “heaven” in order to give the sense of a place that is not accessible to human beings. The contrast is used to emphasize the inaccessibility of both places. I don’t see a clear affirmation or denial there.

[ QUOTE ]
Ephesians 4
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Another acceptable understanding of the Greek text can be, "What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" So "descended" can refer to Christ's coming to earth as a baby (the Incarnation). SO the phrase "the lower regions of the earth" can mean "lower regions which are the earth" (a genitive of apposition in Greek). In English we could say "the city of Chicago," but what we mean is "the city which is Chicago."

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. The dead - 1Pe. 3:19; 4:6

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is taken to mean that Christ went into hell and preached to the spirits who were there, that raises a lot of questions. Peter says specifically that he preached to those "who formerly did not obey," not just to spirits generally. Why would Christ travel to hell to preach to those who disobeyed during the building of the ark? Why only to those sinners and not to all? And again, it seems peculiar when other places in Scripture indicate no opportunity for repentance after death. The context of 1 Peter 3 makes it even more difficult to believe that was the case. Peter was encouraging his readers to boldly witness to hostile unbelievers around them. They were told to "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you" (1 Peter 3:15). That evangelistic theme would lose its urgency if Peter was teaching that there was a second chance for salvation after death, and it doesn't fit with a preaching of condemnation.

So those are the things that hold me back from being able to conclude that Christ did descend into hell.

[ QUOTE ]
Here Isaiah could not even look upon God in a vision due to his shame and sin. The angel then touched his mouth with a coal from the altar (the altar of Christ) and his guilt was taken away and his sins atoned for. Note, this was done under the time of animal sacrifice. Yet Isaiah could still not even look upon God in a vision!

[/ QUOTE ]
But I don't think that his inability to look upon God was a funciton of his sin and guilt due to the insufficiency of the OT sacrificial system. The Bible discusses this concept many times when it is not even contingent upon the atonement of sin...

Exodus 33:20 "But, he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

John 6:46 "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see..."

1 John 4:12 "No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying they could come into the presence of God even without Christ's sacrifice?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, not at all. I was saying that their obedience to God through the sacrificial system atoned for their sin and rendered them forgiven--exactly as all of those verses I quoted above say.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I don't see why Christ even had to die then. That makes many many verses highly confusing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no dispute about the necessity of Christ's death, as I was not saying what you inferred above.

[ QUOTE ]
This site has many good studies for you,

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/indxb.htm#bible_sites

Here is more for you to read. I know you are still undecided, but that you like Greek and Hebrew word studies:

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks!

[ QUOTE ]
This is a debate that has been going on for ages
I'm done. I'd like to hear your concluding thoughts though! Good discussion!

[/ QUOTE ]
/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I won't presume upon your time any further. I just still have some questions in my mind, but this discussion has been very helpful to me to consider the arguments from both sides! Thank you guys for discussing it with me! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

01-09-2005, 03:46 PM

Thanks Amy! I'll read into your post more.

Great discussion! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I won't presume upon your time any further. I just still have some questions in my mind, but this discussion has been very helpful to me to consider the arguments from both sides! Thank you guys for discussing it with me!

[/ QUOTE ]

No you're never wasting my time. lol I just thought we were at a cross roads and I pretty much said all I can think of on the matter. But I do have a few more things.

[ QUOTE ]
First, the phrase “he descended into hell” is not in the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but neither is the phrase "trinity", or any exact phrasing of the concept found. However, unless the trinity concept is assumed, many verse make no sense and condradict one another. This may not be the best comparison as I see the trinity as doctrinal. But I do believe that in the case with Christ descending to conquer hell, it makes many verses of the bible much more clearer which would otherwise contradict one another. And like the trinity, I believe it is inferred to in such a manner that it can be logically assumed to be the case.

I still do not see why Christ had to die if animal sacrifice can do the same thing as Christ's sacrifice. Or the OT priest could perform the same operation as the Great High Priest.

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



I think Paul made it clear that death reigned from Adam to Christ. Tl me that shows animal sacrifice was only a object of faith, not the manifestation of it.

 1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.


Nor did it keep anyone from hades, as Christ showed He conquered that as well in Rev. 1. Their faith in God's promise of a new covenant was what allowed them to be set free when the object of their faith was made manifest.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



It is my feeling that Christ not only conqured death but hell, which I'm sure you agree with, but is I believe this is something the OT system of sacrifice could not do.

That does not mean the OT suffered in hell, as the story of Lazarus and the rich man showed. This was due to their faith, however not yet manifested.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 

I believe this was the case from Adam to Christ, and for the ages to come.

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't think that his inability to look upon God was a funciton of his sin and guilt due to the insufficiency of the OT sacrificial system. The Bible discusses this concept many times when it is not even contingent upon the atonement of sin...

Exodus 33:20 "But, he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

John 6:46 "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

1 Timothy 6:15-16 "...God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see..."

1 John 4:12 "No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

[/ QUOTE ]

But here, John does see God the Father,

 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.



John saw God the Father on His throne and had no issue with this, unlike Isaiah,

Here we are allowed to sit in the presence of the King!

 Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 

And we know the 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs of the ages, who are sitting in the presence of God.

 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 

That reveals a setting of rest, peace, and royalty. Why could this happen?

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.



Something animal sacrifice could not do.

 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 

Here we can look upon His face, because of what Christ has done, which I'm sure you agree with:

 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.


And look upon His face.

The reason is something is different. That difference is the manifestation of Christ. Because of Him it is as though our sins never occured and death, hell, and the grave was defeated.

 1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 

Now we agree that death reigned from Adam to Christ. So clearly there was something, the curse of hell and death, that could not be undone until Christ came. That means animal sacrifice did not accomplish what Christ's did.

 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



[ QUOTE ]
Another acceptable understanding of the Greek text can be, "What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?" So "descended" can refer to Christ's coming to earth as a baby (the Incarnation). SO the phrase "the lower regions of the earth" can mean "lower regions which are the earth" (a genitive of apposition in Greek). In English we could say "the city of Chicago," but what we mean is "the city which is Chicago."

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, interesting, I have heard that arguement, but I think that if it is referring to Christ descending to set the captives free, it helps clarify in my mind many points in the bible.

Thanks Tuf! That got me thinking! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif I see your case, and it makes very good points. I think its just a matter of personal belief at this point! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tuf

01-09-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
True, but neither is the phrase "trinity", or any exact phrasing of the concept found.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's a good point, and I thought about that when I said that the phrase isn't in the Bible. I realize that doesn't exclude it from being true; however, it is one of the reasons it is unclear to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I still do not see why Christ had to die if animal sacrifice can do the same thing as Christ's sacrifice.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we had a miscommunication here. All I intended to say was that I believe the sacrificial system was sufficient to 1)atone for the sin and 2)bring about forgiveness for the sinner, appeasing God's wrath. I initially thought that you did not believe it could do those things, but as our discussion progressed, I realize that we were on the same page with regard to that issue. I do not believe that animal sacrifice was sufficient to do what Christ's death on the cross did. Pay the penalty for that sin and appease God's wrath yes, but I don't believe it was sufficient to redeem them.

I agree with you that in the end times we will see God, as you said, because we will be perfected then. It seemed to me that your point was that Isaiah could not see God because he was a sinner under the OT sacrificial system, and my point was that no man (sinful human) can see God and live. We are not under the OT sacrificial system, and we are justified, yet we cannot see God now either. But I do agree that we will.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Tuf! That got me thinking!

[/ QUOTE ]
And you DEFINITELY got me thinking as well. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks, Adam, for taking the time to discuss this with me.

Adam Knowlden

01-09-2005, 08:19 PM

Sure thing Amy! I agree, I think some of this was just internet barrier communication stuff. If were were hanging out discussing some of the ideas we were conveying would have been clearer. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For example,

We know certain people in the bible did see God:

GEN. 32:24-30: Jacob saw and wrestled with God
EX. 24:9-11: Moses & 73 elders gazed upon God.
Exodus 33:11: God spoke to Moses face-to-face.
Deut. 34:10: God spoke to Moses face-to-face.

I think the verses you provided make more sense if we understand, no one has seen God, unless He appeared to them in form other than His own, or in a manner where His full Glory was not fully revealed. Really that issue is a whole other post...

I was just stating I saw a distinction between Isaiah gazing on the throne, and when John gazed on the throne. To look upon the throne, Isaiah had to receive atonement from the coals of the altar, while John did not have to do this. Why is this? I feel it was because John already received imputation of Christ's Holiness, while Isaiah had not yet received the benefit of total cleansing.

Again, thanks for sharing, like always, your insights are incredible!

XenoWang

02-17-2005, 07:23 PM

Would the mods please kindly discuss the following link? It pertains to where Jesus was for the three days before His Resurrection:

http://www.myfortress.org/DidJesusPayForOurSinsInHell.html

Thanks!

el trigueño

02-17-2005, 10:23 PM

Finally I have 150 posts, whew. I'd like to comment on the Matthew 27:50-53 question...
*my translation reads 'many bodies of the holy, that were asleep, were risen...'*

In chapter 15 of 1st of Corinthians Paul gives words of resurection, but does not mention the unique events that unfolded in Matthew 27:50-53. Other writers of the Bible do not mention 'of the dead actually rising and becoming alive again' if Acts 2:32-34 is looked at.

The bodies that rose could not have been resurrected, because on the 3rd day Jesus become 'the first born within the dead.' According to Colosians 1:18(sorry i'm translating from spanish)

Annointed christians, also referred to as holy ones, also received promise of a first resurrection during the presence of Jesus, just not in the first century. 1 Tesalonicenses(don't know how in english) 3:13 and 4:14-17.

The dead bodies remain dead, and Matthew must be referring to persons that visited the tombs and carried the news to Jerusalem to tell of what happened.

XenoWang

02-17-2005, 10:34 PM

Joe, I read both of those links (the second one is this thread /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif) and that's why I posted that link in my original post. It seems like this is a matter of interpretation but the link I posted has quite an interesting explanation for the issue.

psaturn

02-17-2005, 10:54 PM

El Trigueño,

Mat 27:50 Mas Jesús, habiendo otra vez exclamado con grande voz, dió el espíritu. 51 Y he aquí, el velo del templo se rompió en dos, de alto á bajo: y la tierra tembló, y las piedras se hendieron; 52 Y abriéronse los sepulcros, y muchos cuerpos de santos que habían dormido, se levantaron; 53 Y salidos de los sepulcros, después de su resurrección, vinieron á la santa ciudad, y aparecieron á muchos.

And the Orthodox Brit Chadasha (Jewish version of the New Testament)

Mat 27:50 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up his ruach. 51 And--hinei!--the parochet (curtain) of the Beis Hamikdash was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split 52 and the kevarim (graves) were opened, and many gufot (bodies) of the kedoshim who had fallen asleep were made to stand up alive. 53 And coming out of the kevarim after Moshiach's Techiyas HaMesim, they entered the Ir HaKodesh (Holy City) and appeared to many.

Both verses clearly state that the bodies of those people came out to be alive AFTER Jesus' resurrection. Note the Spanish version (La Reina Valera which is older than King James Version) says that los cuerpos se levantaron y salidos de sus sepulcros DESPUES de SU RESURRECCIÓN.

The Jewish version clearly states that this happened after Moshiach's (Christ's) Techiyas HaMesim, which means resurrection.

el trigueño

02-17-2005, 11:52 PM

"Mat 27:50 Mas Jesús, habiendo otra vez exclamado con grande voz, dió el espíritu. 51 Y he aquí, el velo del templo se rompió en dos, de alto á bajo: y la tierra tembló, y las piedras se hendieron; 52 Y abriéronse los sepulcros, y muchos cuerpos de santos que habían dormido, se levantaron; 53 Y salidos de los sepulcros, después de su resurrección, vinieron á la santa ciudad, y aparecieron á muchos."

in verse 52...many bodies that were asleep had risen. Not meaning that they had risen and then become alive. They had just risen, or emerged. Verse 53 says "despues de su resurrección" whose resurrecion?...Jesus.

Ahora, piensa usted en esto (espero que es hispanohablante)

Que si cuando murió Jesús aconteció una resurrección, como sugieren esta traducción y otras, ¿habrían esperado los resucitados hasta después de la propia resurrección de Jesús, al tercer día después de esto, para salir de sus tumbas? ¿Por qué resucitaría Dios a estos “santos” en esta ocasión, puesto que Jesús había de ser “el primogénito de entre los muertos”? (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20)

También, sería durante la presencia futura de Cristo que los cristianos ungidos o “santos” habrían de ser partícipes de la primera resurrección.—1 Tes. 3:13; 4:14-17; Rev. 20:5, 6.

Estaba yo buscando, pero no pude encontrar ni un articulo que no tenía que ver con los tsunamis,casos en que los terremotos hagan que cadaveres suban para el superficie de la tierra. Acontece si el terremoto es suficiente fuerte.

psaturn

02-18-2005, 01:07 AM

El Trigueño,

(Sí, soy hispanoparlante)

What I am thinking is that it may not be resurrection that happened to the bodies of the saints that were buried in the Holy City. The Scriptures said that they were sleeping, and they woke up with the temblor that happened when Jesus died.

It does seem to me that Matthew did not call this awakening a "resurrection" as he called Jesus' coming back to life.

About the tsunamis, there is a huge difference between an earthquake (terremoto) and a seaquake (maremoto). I do sorta remember there were cemeteries that area in which the tombs and caskets seem to be floating and thus the cadavers were mixed with the fresh bodies of the newly deceased. Of course no one saw the dead being alive and...

Adam Knowlden

02-19-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Joe, I read both of those links (the second one is this thread ) and that's why I posted that link in my original post. It seems like this is a matter of interpretation but the link I posted has quite an interesting explanation for the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read this entire thread, I provided a link with several rebuttles to that person's claims.

[ QUOTE ]
in verse 52...many bodies that were asleep had risen. Not meaning that they had risen and then become alive. They had just risen, or emerged.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. People hang out inside of graves? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I'm not following you:

 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose 

2. Slept clearly means they were dead. The same verbage is used many times in the scriptures:

 Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 

 1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


 1 Corinthians 11:29-31
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh ****ation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


 Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:


John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 

There are too many mental gymnastics to be performed with your explanation. I think Occam's razor clearly applies to the verses in question.

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The bodies that rose could not have been resurrected, because on the 3rd day Jesus become 'the first born within the dead.' According to Colosians 1:18(sorry i'm translating from spanish)

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No one prior to Jesus was raised from the dead? How then do you do explain these selections?

 1 Kings 17:17-24 (King James Version)

17And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

18And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

19And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.

20And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

21And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

22And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

23And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

24And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.



 Kings 4:32-37 (King James Version)
32And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.

33He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.

34And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

36And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.

37Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.



 2 Kings 13:20-21 (King James Version)

20And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.

21And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.



These event occured well before the resurrection of Christ.

You have the wrong understanding of that scripture.

 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 

You have the wrong understanding of "firstborn from among the dead". That does not mean He was the first resurrected in history, but rather a Jewish Principle:

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Firstborn from the Dead-Bro. Fred Binns, England

THE RESPONSIBILITIES AND privileges of the firstborn in Israel are a very marked feature in the scriptures. They are singled out for our attention in many places and given significant prominence as an important type. These duties, which in the fulfillment of the type involve the generations that will be raised in the coming age, are quite considerable and suggest that we who are called to qualify as the antitype of this firstborn figure take our responsibilities very seriously.

According to the law, the firstborn had the right of being priest and king, that is of interceding for and ruling over their younger brethren; on him devolved the duty of Goel or Kinsman-redeemer, to redeem a brother who had become poor and sold himself to a stranger; to avenge his blood, to raise up seed to the dead, and to redeem the inheritance. To sustain these duties God gave the firstborn a double portion. These facts can be collectively gleaned from Ex 13:2 24:5 Nu 3:12,13 8:16 De 21:17; and 1Ch 5:1,2.

Moreover an unusual transaction took place respecting the firstborn. We find it in Nu 3:45 where the Levites were taken in their place. By so instituting the whole of the complex sacred service in this unusual way into the sole charge of the firstborn, the Lord made this one of the most important figures in the Old Testament.

The understanding, then, of all the particular features of the type should be a matter of the greatest interest to the antitypical firstborn, most especially as to how we may be properly fitted for this important role in the purposes of our Heavenly Father. Of course our dear Lord fulfills this purpose completely in himself. After all he is the true firstborn, being the "firstborn of every creature."{Col 1:15}

Firstborn from the Dead

However a most important and fundamental factor in the firstborn figure has to be understood before any one may enter into it. Christ does not fulfill the role of the firstborn as firstborn of every creature, but as "firstborn from the dead."

"He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead."—Col 1:18

This quotation establishes the fact precisely. No less importantly it also shows that all who would enter into Christ as firstborn, must likewise be born from the dead. It also implies that the nature of the firstborn portion would have its own particular significance.

This is an important matter. We have seen that firstborns in Israel had important responsibilities to carry out, which was the point of the double portion. There was just no use in being invested with this responsibility and not being provided with the wherewithal to fulfill the duty. It therefore follows that the particular nature of this inheritance, and the assurance that it is a present possession, must be a matter of the greatest importance to the whole "Household of Faith."In the words of the apostle Peter, 1

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The dead bodies remain dead, and Matthew must be referring to persons that visited the tombs and carried the news to Jerusalem to tell of what happened.

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I agree these saints most likely were a part of the infallible proofs, Luke referred to in the first chapter of Acts, but I think the above statement is a far stretch from the scriptures. The other gospels do not discuss this event either, only the gospel of John:

 John 18
1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

2And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.

3Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.



Does that mean it didn't really happen?

The point is many of the gospels tell events of Christ life, the others do not. In fact John ends with this note:

 25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

To say that a portion of scripture is obsolete because it is not recorded in another gospel is not biblical, moreover John is clear there are many events that went unrecorded. Therefore it would make sense some of the gospels may contain events that another gospel may not.

We have already established that others did raise from the dead before Christ was even born, not to mention the resurrection of Lazarus, and many others Christ resurrected,

 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son
11Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him. 12As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out–the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. 13When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, “Don't cry.”
14Then he went up and touched the coffin, and those carrying it stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” 15The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

16They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” 17This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea[a] and the surrounding country.



I've never seen one solid arguement that can show this scripture can not stand as is:

 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

psaturn

02-19-2005, 08:19 AM

Good explanation Adam !

Do you think there is a difference between resurrection and raising the dead or the dead coming back alive ? I am presuming the son of the widow died again and so did those saints that came out of the tombs after Jesus died.

The way I understand it, after you are resurrected, you don't die unless you die the second death.

Adam Knowlden

02-19-2005, 03:15 PM

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Good explanation Adam !

Do you think there is a difference between resurrection and raising the dead or the dead coming back alive ? I am presuming the son of the widow died again and so did those saints that came out of the tombs after Jesus died.

The way I understand it, after you are resurrected, you don't die unless you die the second death.

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Good question. That is something worth studying deeper. I agree, the widow's son and those like Lazarus died again. We know the pharisees plotted Lazurus' death.

 9Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.


Christ was the first born in the fact that He was given authority over death.

Personally, I believe they were the OT saints and those who loved the Lord, resurrected and probably raptured after a season. Matthew says they appeared to many. My personal belief is, going with the rest of this thread, they were some of those Christ set free from shoel and were raptured up when Christ ascended.

The bible is not totally clear, but I think this explanation fits well with the theory of Christ setting the captives free in Abraham's side.

Here is from earlier in the thread:

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52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Yes this really happened. But notice, they did not appear to people until after Jesus' resurrection. Who they were and who they appeared to is unknown. We do know Christ set the captives free.

Personally, I believe they were the OT saints and those who loved the Lord, resurrected and probably raptured after a season. Christ did descend to shoel and set the captives free.

The account also says the saints "appeared" unto many. That does not mean they hung around on earth. They probably appeared for a long as Christ did, to proclaim the good news.

In the book of Acts we read:

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Many infallible proofs. In other words, undeniable evidence Christ was alive. One such proof was the numerous saints that arose as Matthew describes.

If this is related it meant they spoke of things pertaining to the kingdome of God and only stayed as long as Christ did (40 days) and then ascended.

There are tales of old testament saints and people like Adam and Eve and Seth being those that were raised, but these are not very credible. They're found in the apocrypha which contains all types of bizzare miracles such as a talking cross that appears to Jesus.

Some other examples of resurrections in the bible are: Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37; 13:20-21; Luke 7:11-15; 8:41-42, 50-56; John 11:1-4, 11-14, 17-44; and Acts 9:36-42; 20:9-12.

Quote from Matthey Henry, bible scholar,

To whom they appeared, in what manner, and how they disappeared, we are not told; and we must not desire to be wise above what is written. The dreadful appearances of God in his providence, sometimes work strangely for the conviction and awakening of sinners. This was expressed in the terror that fell upon the centurion and the Roman soldiers. We may reflect with comfort on the abundant testimonies given to the character of Jesus; and, seeking to give no just cause of offence, we may leave it to the Lord to clear our characters, if we live to Him. Let us, with an eye of faith, behold Christ and him crucified, and be affected with that great love wherewith he loved us. But his friends could give no more than a look; they beheld him, but could not help him. Never were the horrid nature and effects of sin so tremendously displayed, as on that day when the beloved Son of the Father hung upon the cross, suffering for sin, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Let us yield ourselves willingly to his service.

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The Greek word used in Matthew 27 is koy-mah'- which means figuratively to decease: sleep, to be dead.

It seems that the best explanation is, these were dead, and in their graves, they were resurrected, and probably raptured. But I agree with Matthew Henry, we shouldn't theorize too deeply, as the bible is silent on the matter.

psaturn

02-19-2005, 03:40 PM

Amen !!! Either way it happened, it would not affect our every day walk with the LORD. We shall be resurrected after our body quits working...at the time prescribed by the Father.