sta63bmx
01-06-2005, 08:05 PM
I have sent this PM to two people in the last two days, so I figured I might as well post it, then link it.
Disclaimer: I am not the world's strongest lifter. You know that. I'm barely a Class III in the 181's by APF rankings. Well, one pound shy of it. But I have been reading about and practicing Darkside training principles since fall of 2002, so it has become much clearer to me now than it was then.
I am a believer in Darkside training not only from my own experience, but from watching people doing the same old thing and getting the same old results.
I tried to summarize the results as best I could when asked for information. There are other people more knowledgeable than I am and plenty of people stronger than I am, so it may be best to post questions in an open forum.
Darkside training will definitely make you stronger, but it is not a bodybuilding routine. If you're looking for something different or you're just training for strength, maybe it's for you. If you're trying to add mass, it's probably not for you. It's not going to make you smaller by any means, and I'm sure that especially for the majority of us who could stand to be bigger, it will add some mass. But that's not what it's for.
Darkside training is all about training the neuromuscular system for strength, not training for hypertrophy.
Final Note: You may be reviled and mocked for practicing these methods, but at least you will be in good company. There is none but Lord Franco, and Louie Simmons is his prophet. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
PM text follows...
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Westside Info
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/dtate.htm
This is the best breakdown I've ever seen. You have a max squat/deadlift day, and 72 hours later you have a speed squat/deadlift day. You have a max bench day, and 72 hours later, you have a speed bench day. I have the speed days and max days flipped around. I think all that matters is trying to have two days in between the two days.
Conjugate Periodization
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/conjugate-method.htm
Linear periodization like Bompa teaches can be really useful. But you are usually doing maximal effort work or speed work, different things in different phases. With conjugate periodization in the Westside split, you are doing speed work to train rate of force development (RFD) and practice proper form and maximal effort work to train for maximal strength. Max lifts are usually picked to specifically target your weak areas. The assistance work is done bodybuilding style, usually for multiple sets of 6-12 reps, to strengthen the relevant body parts and get some GPP.
Look in the article sections at www.elitefts.com (http://www.elitefts.com) and the archives at www.deepsquatter.com (http://www.deepsquatter.com) to see a ton of other articles. If you look back through the archives at www.t-nation.com (http://www.t-nation.com) you will also find articles on this, though not as many.
One thing I will say about these guys' logs compared to someone much lower on the totem pole like me is that there are some exercises I think should be in every lifter's program: heavy close grip bench (3-5 rep), heavy SLDL (3-5 rep), and then heavy rack squats and/or rack pulls, depending on where you're weakest in the DL. Rack squats help you develop power off the floor, rack pulls help you develop the lockout. I also do speed pulls on my speed days after box squats. I am a big believer in these lifts.
I do the SLDL after my speed work. I do rack squats as a max effort exercise right now, but I'm going to start doing them as assistance work pretty soon. I do close grip bench twice a week.
My powerlift total has gone up eighty pounds in the last two or three months, and that's based on squat and deadlift numbers from at least six weeks ago, probably longer. My squat is probably up another thirty pounds by now, and I am expecting another thirty pounds on DL next time I max.
I am a big fan of Darkside training because it is a lot simpler than having like a three month cycle planned WAY in advance. What happens when you don't get your lifts one week? What happens once squatting or pulling gets stale for you? Where do you go? What do you do? hammering away at the same lifts really heavy all the time, what does that do for your weak areas? Max days are easy, you just go and set a PR or at least max and fail a couple times. Speed days are easy, you know about what weight to use, and you make sure you're feeling speedy. If not, drop the weight some. On the assistance work, ALWAYS more weight, ALWAYS more volume, just keep pushing.
I personally don't think it's complicated in the slightest anymore. I can remember being confused as hell starting out. Fortunately, I had PaulB to guide me through some of it.
Myths You'll Hear
Darkside training is only for people on drugs.
This one pisses me off every time I hear it. This one comes from people who don't really understand what's going on. EVERYONE has the same anabolics as they do, so why is it the strongest gym in the world? I thought so. The neuromuscular system does get a little bit more efficient on AS, from what I've read, but the underlying principles remain the same. Where this becomes important is...
Darkside training will overtrain you IMMEDIATELY.
Total bullcrap. The volumes aren't very high. Compare this with a bodybuilding routine! A BBing routine contains WAY more volume. I think the reason people say this is because you are constantly maxing out. This is where the conjugate periodization comes in. To prevent overtraining and staleness, it's critical to kee trying to switch up the max effort exercises. From what I've read, recruitment patterns and firing are only like 1RM attempts if you're working between about 90-120% of 1RM. That's pretty specific! What happens when you go from maxing on rack squats to maxing on good mornings? TOTALLY DIFFERENT RECRUITMENT PATTERNS and avoidance of CNS burnout. Hello. The work is heavy, but changing the exercises prevents burnout. I don't think my SLDL and CG bench work is heavy enough to lead to CNS detraining very quickly, but it does need to be cycled on and off. I'm never maxing and I'm never above maybe 80% of 1RM.
Darkside training is all smoke and mirrors, you just need to lift heavy on the big three and do it often.
With what lifts? How quickly are you going to burn out on the big three? What will you do then, quit maxing? What if I told you that you could train explosive speed and max strength year round without overtraining?
I mean, consider that my last max squat was 375x1 over two months ago. I have not done a free squat over maybe 60% of 1RM since then up until this week. I got an EASY 365x1 and then got misgrooved last week and missed the second rep of the double. 345x2 was cake yesterday. I am fully expecting a 445-465 DL next time I max, after not doing a pull with over 60% of projected 1RM in over two months!!!
I will say that a lot of people overdo it and overtrain in a hurry, because they don't think they're doing "enough". You gotta watch that. I probably do a little more than some would recommend, but I've built up enough of a GPP base to get away with it, I think. In any case, my total is still rocketing up.
Feel free to ask me whatever questions you have.
Disclaimer: I am not the world's strongest lifter. You know that. I'm barely a Class III in the 181's by APF rankings. Well, one pound shy of it. But I have been reading about and practicing Darkside training principles since fall of 2002, so it has become much clearer to me now than it was then.
I am a believer in Darkside training not only from my own experience, but from watching people doing the same old thing and getting the same old results.
I tried to summarize the results as best I could when asked for information. There are other people more knowledgeable than I am and plenty of people stronger than I am, so it may be best to post questions in an open forum.
Darkside training will definitely make you stronger, but it is not a bodybuilding routine. If you're looking for something different or you're just training for strength, maybe it's for you. If you're trying to add mass, it's probably not for you. It's not going to make you smaller by any means, and I'm sure that especially for the majority of us who could stand to be bigger, it will add some mass. But that's not what it's for.
Darkside training is all about training the neuromuscular system for strength, not training for hypertrophy.
Final Note: You may be reviled and mocked for practicing these methods, but at least you will be in good company. There is none but Lord Franco, and Louie Simmons is his prophet. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
PM text follows...
--------------------------------------
Westside Info
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/dtate.htm
This is the best breakdown I've ever seen. You have a max squat/deadlift day, and 72 hours later you have a speed squat/deadlift day. You have a max bench day, and 72 hours later, you have a speed bench day. I have the speed days and max days flipped around. I think all that matters is trying to have two days in between the two days.
Conjugate Periodization
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/conjugate-method.htm
Linear periodization like Bompa teaches can be really useful. But you are usually doing maximal effort work or speed work, different things in different phases. With conjugate periodization in the Westside split, you are doing speed work to train rate of force development (RFD) and practice proper form and maximal effort work to train for maximal strength. Max lifts are usually picked to specifically target your weak areas. The assistance work is done bodybuilding style, usually for multiple sets of 6-12 reps, to strengthen the relevant body parts and get some GPP.
Look in the article sections at www.elitefts.com (http://www.elitefts.com) and the archives at www.deepsquatter.com (http://www.deepsquatter.com) to see a ton of other articles. If you look back through the archives at www.t-nation.com (http://www.t-nation.com) you will also find articles on this, though not as many.
One thing I will say about these guys' logs compared to someone much lower on the totem pole like me is that there are some exercises I think should be in every lifter's program: heavy close grip bench (3-5 rep), heavy SLDL (3-5 rep), and then heavy rack squats and/or rack pulls, depending on where you're weakest in the DL. Rack squats help you develop power off the floor, rack pulls help you develop the lockout. I also do speed pulls on my speed days after box squats. I am a big believer in these lifts.
I do the SLDL after my speed work. I do rack squats as a max effort exercise right now, but I'm going to start doing them as assistance work pretty soon. I do close grip bench twice a week.
My powerlift total has gone up eighty pounds in the last two or three months, and that's based on squat and deadlift numbers from at least six weeks ago, probably longer. My squat is probably up another thirty pounds by now, and I am expecting another thirty pounds on DL next time I max.
I am a big fan of Darkside training because it is a lot simpler than having like a three month cycle planned WAY in advance. What happens when you don't get your lifts one week? What happens once squatting or pulling gets stale for you? Where do you go? What do you do? hammering away at the same lifts really heavy all the time, what does that do for your weak areas? Max days are easy, you just go and set a PR or at least max and fail a couple times. Speed days are easy, you know about what weight to use, and you make sure you're feeling speedy. If not, drop the weight some. On the assistance work, ALWAYS more weight, ALWAYS more volume, just keep pushing.
I personally don't think it's complicated in the slightest anymore. I can remember being confused as hell starting out. Fortunately, I had PaulB to guide me through some of it.
Myths You'll Hear
Darkside training is only for people on drugs.
This one pisses me off every time I hear it. This one comes from people who don't really understand what's going on. EVERYONE has the same anabolics as they do, so why is it the strongest gym in the world? I thought so. The neuromuscular system does get a little bit more efficient on AS, from what I've read, but the underlying principles remain the same. Where this becomes important is...
Darkside training will overtrain you IMMEDIATELY.
Total bullcrap. The volumes aren't very high. Compare this with a bodybuilding routine! A BBing routine contains WAY more volume. I think the reason people say this is because you are constantly maxing out. This is where the conjugate periodization comes in. To prevent overtraining and staleness, it's critical to kee trying to switch up the max effort exercises. From what I've read, recruitment patterns and firing are only like 1RM attempts if you're working between about 90-120% of 1RM. That's pretty specific! What happens when you go from maxing on rack squats to maxing on good mornings? TOTALLY DIFFERENT RECRUITMENT PATTERNS and avoidance of CNS burnout. Hello. The work is heavy, but changing the exercises prevents burnout. I don't think my SLDL and CG bench work is heavy enough to lead to CNS detraining very quickly, but it does need to be cycled on and off. I'm never maxing and I'm never above maybe 80% of 1RM.
Darkside training is all smoke and mirrors, you just need to lift heavy on the big three and do it often.
With what lifts? How quickly are you going to burn out on the big three? What will you do then, quit maxing? What if I told you that you could train explosive speed and max strength year round without overtraining?
I mean, consider that my last max squat was 375x1 over two months ago. I have not done a free squat over maybe 60% of 1RM since then up until this week. I got an EASY 365x1 and then got misgrooved last week and missed the second rep of the double. 345x2 was cake yesterday. I am fully expecting a 445-465 DL next time I max, after not doing a pull with over 60% of projected 1RM in over two months!!!
I will say that a lot of people overdo it and overtrain in a hurry, because they don't think they're doing "enough". You gotta watch that. I probably do a little more than some would recommend, but I've built up enough of a GPP base to get away with it, I think. In any case, my total is still rocketing up.
Feel free to ask me whatever questions you have.