Two Deadlift Questions

[blaargracer]

First off, does anybody keep the shoulderblades contracted together when doing deadlift, or is that standard? It's just something I do and my traps and such are growing rather quickly.

Secondly, has anybody ever had the problem of really small hands that hardly fit around the bar? It's killing me, cause I hate straps but my grip isn't getting any stronger, i've decreased the weight and just tried doing more reps, like sets of 20, that way my grip will be stronger when I increase the weight, but it is quite irritating, cause the rest of me is increasing in strength far more quickly.

[ByronSRU23]

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First off, does anybody keep the shoulderblades contracted together when doing deadlift, or is that standard?

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Its standard to do this, especially when you stand up, and "lockout" after your lift.


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It's just something I do and my traps and such are growing rather quickly.

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Thats one reason to DO deadlifts. Their an awsome exercise to put on mass in places you wouldn't think they'd have an affect on. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Secondly, has anybody ever had the problem of really small hands that hardly fit around the bar?

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When I first started powerlifting, my grip strength SUCKED. One thing you could do, is heavy weighted barbell holds. Similar to when you do BB shrugs, only you just HOLD the bar, for as long as possible, till you reach failure. Also, you could try plate pinches. Those also helped my grip out a great deal. For myself, I only use straps now when I max out on deadlifts, which isn't very often.

I'd advise against do 20rep deadlifts. I've noticed with many people, even with light weight, their form starts to falter at higher reps 10reps+. I'd tell you to concentrate more on your forearms, and grip, by doing other methods.

[rev]

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I'd advise against do 20rep deadlifts. I've noticed with many people, even with light weight, their form starts to falter at higher reps 10reps+.

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Good advice. I prefer heavy singles after a good warmup.

[ByronSRU23]

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I'd advise against do 20rep deadlifts. I've noticed with many people, even with light weight, their form starts to falter at higher reps 10reps+.

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Good advice. I prefer heavy singles after a good warmup.

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Same with me bro. Even when I was training as more of a bodybuilder (I'm not a powerlifter)....I noticed my form would falter after 10 reps or so, even with lighter weight.

[jlong]

I once did a mirror setup so I saw myself from the side while doing deads and at around 10 the form started to drift of, shoulders went forward and back went curved.

[sta63bmx]

I do not recommend the use of twenty rep deadlifts. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif Well, ok, maybe if you're really bored. I have been a frequent high-rep deadlift abuser, so I don't have any room to talk there. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif The cost-benefit analysis of high rep deadlifts for grip strength is kind of blah. Your form will definitely drift and they can be dangerous sometimes. If you want to burn up your glutes and hams, they are definitely worth it, imo. I can do twenty with weights that are probably 60-70% of 1RM, so I feel pretty safe. If you want to train grip strength, static holds and farmer's walks are good.

The question you gotta ask yourself is "what am I trying to train here?" If you just want to work your back and legs, strap it up. If you want to lift more at comp, that's a no-no, and you need to bring up grip strength somehow. If you don't like straps, build your grip strength with something that isn't dangerous to the rest of your body.

That kind of grip strength is an extended static contraction, so you can work it that way.

If your grip is really struggling, I would recommend using chalk and using an alternate grip. At least one of the guys on the powerlifting team has small hands, and they do make it tougher. Chalk is a godsend if you are not using it. For grip, farmer's walks and plate pinches are both helpful, and using something like Captains of Crush grippers can also be useful. Ask Satchel about his.

If you are NOT competing in powerlifting, there's nothing wrong with strapping your deadlifts once you fail. I think you'll find that chalk makes a HUGE difference if you aren't using it, and an alternate grip is also useful. I just don't really like straps very much. But work on training your grip specifically. You might also do some rack pulls off high pins and just concentrate on holding as heavy of a weight as you can for as long as possible.

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First off, does anybody keep the shoulderblades contracted together when doing deadlift, or is that standard? It's just something I do and my traps and such are growing rather quickly.

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When you start the DL, you really want to let your shoulders roll forward for a couple of reasons.

For the weight junkies amongst you...

1. It will drop your hands down a little more and you can start the lift a little higher.

From a body position perspective...and I think this is very, very important.

2. If you are starting with your shoulders already squeezed together, it's the same mistake as people who do rows with their shoulder blades already pulled back some. What happens then in each case is that the traps and lats are starting the motion already partially contracted. You won't get a full ROM and you won't get a stretch in those muscles, and they will shorten, and this will screw up your posture. It also transfers some of the stress to OTHER muscles that are not supposed to be handling that load.

For example, if you have weak glutes and you compensate by using all ham and lower back during a squat, it will screw up your posture and the muscles will not coordinate correctly during the lift. This can move joints out of position and cause unnecessary pain.

Here are a couple points to ponder on that, the first one for lifting mroe weight and the second one from a pattern overload perspective...

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Mistake #2: Pulling the shoulder blades together

This is a mistake I made for years. Stand in a deadlift stance and pull your shoulder blades together. Take a look at where your fingertips are. Now if you let your shoulders relax and even round forward a little you'll see your fingertips are much lower. This is why we teach a rounding of the upper back. First, the bar has to travel a shorter distance. Second, there's less stress on the shoulder region. It'll also help to keep your shoulder blades behind the bar. You'll read more on this later.

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Source (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459744)

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An example of faulty load sharing can be witnessed in those individuals who have been taught to adduct their scapulae prior to initiating a pull with the lats and other muscles. This faulty motor sequence disrupts load sharing by first recruiting the scapular adductors and shortening them beyond the range of their optimal length/force and length/tension relationships, which then leaves the scapulohumeral musculature to perform the remainder of the work. This often leads to strain and trigger point development of the teres major, teres minor and infraspinatus muscles, or otherwise known as pattern overload.(1, 2)

The athlete who regularly performs pulling exercises in the manner described above will likely have a shortening of the scapulohumeral musculature which eventually leads to faulty scapulothoracic rhythm. The result is scapulae that rotate prematurely during all pulling or abduction movements. Over time, this results in stretch weakness of the middle and lower trapezius, and rhomboid musculature. Individuals with this type of dysfunction will present themselves clinically as experiencing pain between the shoulder blades and often demonstrate reduced range of motion in shoulder abduction, internal rotation, and shoulder flexion.

Through careful observation, you'll notice that athletes fitting the movement pattern described above chop their pulling movements into segments. The pull is usually initiated rapidly, favoring use of the now lengthened scapular adductor muscles. The pulling motion is terminated after 60-70% of the normal pulling range because the optimal working range of the short/strong scapulohumeral muscles and now lengthened scapular adductors has been reached; the scapular adductors are not weak, per say, they're just strong at the wrong time.

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Source (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462196)

I'm not coming down on you, I just wanted to share this with you. Some muscles get stretched past their optimal length and can't do much for you, and other ones get shortened out of their useful range and can't do much for you, and if you do it often enough, you establish a faulty "pulling" motor program and then correcting it can take a LOT of work.

Your muscles are designed (please, no evolution debates, I know there's ref. to that in the second article, but check out the cartoon with the monkeys!) to be certain lengths to do the most for you. When you're not following the correct physiological sequence, bad things happen.

You can trust me, I AM A MASTER OF SCIENCE! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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I remembered you saying that, about rolling your shoulders forward, I just couldn't find your post on it and it wasn't in your old sig. I couldn't remember the reason's why, other than starting the lift more upright.

[Coz]

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I'd advise against do 20rep deadlifts. I've noticed with many people, even with light weight, their form starts to falter at higher reps 10reps+.

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Good advice. I prefer heavy singles after a good warmup.

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I don't understand. If you are doing 20 rep deadlifts and you are losing your form then you are not doing 20. As soon as your form is off that's when the set is over. Am I missing something?

[ByronSRU23]

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I'd advise against do 20rep deadlifts. I've noticed with many people, even with light weight, their form starts to falter at higher reps 10reps+.

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Good advice. I prefer heavy singles after a good warmup.

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I don't understand. If you are doing 20 rep deadlifts and you are losing your form then you are not doing 20. As soon as your form is off that's when the set is over. Am I missing something?

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I wish Coz. You have no idea how many times I see kids doing deads with bad form. I always make sure to tell them, but most of them never listen to me. Still, I try.

[sta63bmx]

I just let them go these days.

When I'm doing 20-rep work, my form usually stays pretty good until the very end. I never get totally rounded over, and I keep my arch, but I have a hard time staying upright once the reps really start to get up there.

I need to gun for 315x20 again sometime in the coming year. I have been avoiding high volume work like the PLAGUE since I'm so beat from my regular workout, but at some point I have to get it.

[Coz]

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I wish Coz. You have no idea how many times I see kids doing deads with bad form. I always make sure to tell them, but most of them never listen to me. Still, I try.

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Well yah I believe that. I have seen people doing singles with poor form, but if you know what you are doing you should know when your form is off and end the set.

I love doing continuous grip deadlifts for high reps. Then end off with singles.

[blaargracer]

Alright, cool, thanks guys, I knew about the set being over when form went away, cause then they aren't reps, they're something else. Straps are a necessary evil, but I must have a larger butt and lower back, so I can deal with the humiliation. Thanks for the advice on contracting my upper back muscles, this will be applied my next workout, if I'm not too busy I'll let you know how it went. Once again, thanks, be blessed, and continue in the hardcoreness of the deadlift and squat.