Saw a Glutamine rebuttal of ABC's research

[HKDave]

"You see, unfortunately, not much glutamine makes it into the bloodstream from oral supplementation. When glutamine enters the small intestine and is absorbed into the mucosal cell, it is then metabolized via brush boarder enzymes to two different products. One product is alanine which is created from the alpha nitrogen on glutamine, the other product is the carbon skelaton left over with the epsilon nitrogen. This carbon skelaton is then oxidized by the gut for fuel while the ammonia group is excreted, or may enter the urea cycle. The alanine from this process is sent to the liver via the portal vein where it is used to form glucose via gluconeogenesis. It is in this way that our body prevents us from overloading ourselves with individual amino acids. The liver and mucosal cells act as a buffer to the peripheral tissues. If this buffer wasn't in place it could have dire health consequences. So to recap, you can't overload yourself with certain amino acids, b/c before ANY nutrient that is orally administered enters the blood stream, it has to pass by the liver, and since the liver regulates amino acid levels, if it "sees" that things may get out of wack it will retain these substrates for gluconeogenesis (making glucose from amino acids) which it will then pass on to the peripheral tissues."

I won't post the URL of the forum, but the poster claims that glutamine supplementation, at least orally, is useless...

Now I'm confused

again...

[Vlad]

The person who wrote that obviously does not understand what happens to the body during intense resistance training. There are a lot of studies, which show various benifits of glutamine supplementation.

First of all, he's completely ignorant of those studies as according to him "not much" glutamine makes it to the blood-stream, which basically means glutamine supplementation wont make any significant difference --> wrong statement, as it does make difference and a lot of studies can back it up. I don't see any references from his side. Is he assuming there or something? If he likes to assume, then I suggest him to start assuming why my house is painted in yellow, not red.

And secondly, that site is a big joke. I'm also buying suppelements there, but nothing more than that, because they don't know a jack about either training or nutrition. Stick to ABC, spare yourself some time and headache.

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Several studies have been composed to test the effect of glutamine on post-exercise glycogen re-synthesis [70]. For example, Varnier M et al. sampled six subjects who cycled for 90 min at a high intensity to deplete glycogen stores [124]. They then fed them either alanine+glycine, NaCl, or glutamine. The glutamine group showed a much greater increase in muscle glycogen storage. Glutamine with carbohydrates has additionally been shown to enhance total body carbohydrate storage [59]. Furthermore, glutamine increases the insulinogenic effect of a post-workout shake [125, 126].


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That was from the Glutamine article on this site. Venom has provided a great deal of studies there. That kid has provided nothing. He has been dismantled as fallacie

[cally]

Amino acids fight for similar substrates as the body has a difficult time distinguishing between individual aminos. Therefore, if a large amount of a particular amino is consumed, it will attach to the substrate over other aminos. This can cause a deficiency in other aminos since they do not attch to the substrate. However, by consuming a different foods with different amino acid make ups, this will not be a concern. In this sense, it is completely plausible to say glutamine will be absorbed and catalyzed in the body. Glutamine peptides are absorbed even better than L-Glutamine since it is not degraded as much in the stomach.

[sta63bmx]

The thing that's retarded is that pretty much ANY supplement, you can have a study that says "it doesn't work!" but at the same time millions of people are taking it and it DOES work, but that's not incontrovertible scientific proof, per se.

Like the people who claim you don't need more than 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Then you look at what bodybuilders have been doing for YEARS...

[JamesP]

I'm 90% sure i know that article and where you got it. It has some good points with good arguments, but I wouldnt really take it with that much credibility.

[ecto no more]

i'm pretty new to this site, but i can tell you this... if nothing else, this site shoots down ALL the BB myths that have plagued us (weightlifters) for the past 10-20 years....i have complete faith that if the people who run this site ever discover any new and CREDIBLE evidence that would appear to dispell established ABC recommendations, we (the members) would be the first to know about it....therefor i will leave any "new discoveries" (especially those "discoveries" regarding how the body works on a cellular level),and what they might mean to the BB world, to the ABC experts.

[Venom]

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Now I'm confused

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So let me get this straight: I write a 10,000 world research article, with 150 references, and you find one paragraph from a horrible reference, and you are confused? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I would highly advise you to study this article and apply its principals, as it will save you a great deal of time and hard ache, A Systematic Annihilation of Pseudo “Scientific” Arguments (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/pseudo%20science.php) This quote as great application to this situation:

[ QUOTE ]
Laying the Foundation

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. --- Matthew 7:24-27

One who builds his scientific foundation upon pseudo science is like the foolish man above who built his house on the sand—such a foundation is destined to fall. It is the goal of this article to give the reader a proper foundation upon which their scientific minds may take root in and grow. As the apostle Paul says, “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. Ephesians 4:14” It is a sad fact that millions of advertisers cunningly seek to deceive the feeble minded; however, with this foundation in place, the reader need no longer fear these deceivers. Now, the reader will see right through these lies, and simply laugh when confronted with them.

The true foundation a scientist must base their decisions on is empirical, logical, scientific data. Pseudo science has no place in this community.



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I’ll comment more on this later.

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That was from the Glutamine article on this site. Venom has provided a great deal of studies there. That kid has provided nothing. He has been dismantled as fallacie

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HAHA! Exactly. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[President Wilson]

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So let me get this straight: I write a 10,000 world research article, with 150 references, and you find one paragraph from a horrible reference, and you are confused?

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Indeed,

what do in the journal is provide the evidence to eliminate confusion which is based on unsubstantiated statements.

In the scientific process, the goal is to understand what the evidence suggests. Venom (2004) has provided overwelming evidence of its benefits, which completely blow the above argument away.

I will address his underlying principle however

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b/c before ANY nutrient that is orally administered enters the blood stream, it has to pass by the liver, and since the liver regulates amino acid levels, if it "sees" that things may get out of wack it will retain these substrates for gluconeogenesis (making glucose from amino acids) which it will then pass on to the peripheral tissues."


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Dechelotte et al. (1991) administered glutamine enterally( in the small intestine) in 10 healthy participants to assess absorbtion rate.

The above suggestion from the quote I posted was that no significant rise in glutamine in plasma would be found after mucosal and hepatic effects. However the results from Dechelotte et al. (1991) showed the following

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'Enteral glutamine administration induced 1) a dose-dependent increase in plasma glutamine level' ;

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To address the mucosal, the investigators state based on the evidence that

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' The dose dependent rise in plasma glutamine concentration strongly suggests that although a fraction of glutamine is supposidly metabolized by the intestinal mucosa that the enteral route is an efficient means with which to elivate plasma glutamine levels in peripheral blood

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They conclude that

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We conclude that glutamine is efficiently absorbed by human jejunum in vivo

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In another study, Mittendorfer (2001) investigated the effect of both an amino acid combination with enriched glutamine. It was found that
plasma glutamine concentrations increased significantly, and that
muscle glutamine inward and outward transport and muscle glutamine utilization for protein synthesis increased during amino acid ingestion. They concluded that ingestion of an amino acid mixture that includes glutamine increases glutamine availability and uptake by skeletal muscle in healthy subjects.

B. Mittendorfer1, E. Volpi2,4, and R. R. Wolfe1,3,4 Whole body and skeletal muscle glutamine metabolism in healthy subjects Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 280: E323-E333, 2001;
0193-1849

P. Dechelotte, D. Darmaun, M. Rongier, B. Hecketsweiler, O. Rigal and J. F. Desjeux Absorption and metabolic effects of enterally administered glutamine in humans Am J Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol 260: G677-G682, 1991

In another study, Bowtell investigated the effect of 330 ml of one of three drinks, 18.5% (wt/vol) glucose polymer solution, 8 g glutamine in 330 ml glucose polymer solution, or 8 g glutamine in 330 ml placebo. They directly address the question of splanic extraction discussed by the author who claims glutamine does not significantly increase in plasma. Here is there results

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<font color="red"> in the present study, provision of glutamine orally was successful in elevating plasma glutamine at the peak concentration by 46%, which suggests that a substantial proportion of the oral load escaped utilization by the gut mucosal cells and uptake by the liver and kidneys </font>

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J. L. Bowtell, K. Gelly, M. L. Jackman, A. Patel, M. Simeoni, and M. J. Rennie
Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise
J Appl Physiol, June 1, 1999; 86(6): 1770 - 1777.


Further after exercise there is a transient decrease in plasma glutamine levels. For example, in two studies Krzywkowski (2001a, 2001b) administered a placebo condition or a glutamine supplementation condition to athletes after intense exercise. The plasma concentration of glutamine was decreased by 15% 2 h postexercise in the placebo group, whereas this decline was abolished by the glutamine supplement group in both studies.

Karen Krzywkowski, Emil Wolsk Petersen, Kenneth Ostrowski, Jens Halkjær Kristensen, Julio Boza, and Bente Klarlund Pedersen
Am J Physiol Cell Physiol, Oct 2001; 281: 1259 - 1265.

Karen Krzywkowski, Emil Wolsk Petersen, Kenneth Ostrowski, Harriet Link-Amster, Julio Boza, Jens Halkjaer-Kristensen, and Bente Klarlund Pedersen
J Appl Physiol, Aug 2001; 91: 832 - 838.

The above studies suggest that glutamine supplementation does indeed have a substantial effect on plasma concentrations.

[Venom]

Great post President!

Reading Venoms' (2004) aforementioned glutamine article is more than enough evidence, but here is some more anyway.

Klimberg et al. (1990) invested the effects of oral glutamine on muscle glutamine metabolism and tumor growth. Twenty-four rats with large sarcomas were pair fed a glutamine-enriched or glutamine-free elemental diet. Results demonstrated that a glutamine-enriched diet increased muscle glutamine content by 60% (P less than 0.05). There were no differences among tumor DNA content, tumor glutaminase activity, or tumor weight and there was no difference histologically in the number of metaphase mitoses/HPF. They concluded that a, “Glutamine-enriched oral diets may replete host glutamine stores and support muscle glutamine metabolism without stimulating tumor growth.”

Glutamine-enriched diets support muscle glutamine metabolism without stimulating tumor growth.

Klimberg VS, Souba WW, Salloum RM, Plumley DA, Cohen FS, Dolson DJ, Bland KI, Copeland EM 3rd.

Department of Surgery, University of Florida College of Medicine, Gainesville 32610.

During a massive review on supplementation with glutamine, from there extensive amount of research on the subject, Alan L. Miller, ND (1999) state that:

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The loss of skeletal muscle glutamine after surgery was illustrated in a group of 19 patients undergoing total hip replacement surgery. Skeletal muscle and plasma glutamine concentration was significantly decreased after surgery, compared to control groups (no surgery) on either bedrest or fasting for four days.39 Glutamine supplementation can attenuate this surgery-induced glutamine depletion. In a study of glutamine and elective abdominal surgery, a glutamine-containing TPN solution (0.285 g glutamine/kg/24 hrs) was given to patients for three days following surgery. Skeletal muscle glutamine levels declined 25 percent, compared to a 40-percent loss in the control TPN group.40

A glutamine dipeptide (alanyl-glutamine) was utilized in a study of nitrogen economy in major abdominal surgery patients. Control patients (on standard TPN) lost approximately 36 grams of protein daily, compared to a loss of 14 grams daily in the dipeptide-supplemented TPN group. This amounted to a savings of over 600 grams of protein over the four-day post-operative period. The circulating lymphocyte count remained stable in the supplemented group, versus a 20-percent loss in the control group. Supplemented patients also had improved markers of glutathione levels, and were in the hospital 6.2 days fewer after surgery. The authors estimate the daily requirement of exogenous glutamine in surgical patients to be 12 grams per day, with 25 grams per day needed in severe trauma or infection.41


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Although glutamine is formed in the body from de novo synthesis, and is part of an everyday diet, bodily stores can be overwhelmed by injury, burns, surgery, overtraining, or cancer. Enterocytes, fibroblasts, lymphocytes, and macrophages use glutamine as a metabolic fuel, and the functioning of these cells can be significantly affected with glutamine depletion. Glutamine supplementation via oral, enteral, or parenteral routes increases skeletal muscle glutamine stores and has been shown to improve gut permeability and mucosal morphology, as well as markers of immune function.



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Austgen et al. tested the effects of glutamine-enriched total parenteral nutrition were in tumor-bearing rats. Results demonstrated a significant increase in the arterial glutamine level and maintained the skeletal muscle intracellular glutamine concentration (p less than 0.01).

Hammarqvist et al. (1989) tested if the addition of glutamine to total parenteral nutrition after elective abdominal surgery spares free glutamine in muscle, counteracts the fall in muscle protein synthesis, and improves nitrogen balance. Twenty-two patients undergoing elective abdominal surgery were given total parenteral nutrition (TPN) after the operation. The TPN contained either a conventional amino acid solution supplemented with glutamine or a conventional amino acid solution without supplementation. Results demonstrated that the postoperative decrease in the intracellular concentration of free glutamine was less pronounced in the glutamine group (21.8 +/- 5.5%) than in the control group (p less than 0.05). The cumulative nitrogen loss was significantly less in the glutamine group as compared to the control group during the period studied (p is less than .01). This quote from them I thought was excellent, “Administration of glutamine to catabolic patients is advocated”

Addition of glutamine to total parenteral nutrition after elective abdominal surgery spares free glutamine in muscle, counteracts the fall in muscle protein synthesis, and improves nitrogen balance.

Hammarqvist F, Wernerman J, Ali R, von der Decken A, Vinnars E.

His**** et al. (2002) in the journal of Applied Physiology states that:

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Oral glutamine supplementation has been shown to elevate glutamine uptake by skeletal muscle (9), the small intestine, and the splanchnic area (8). In response to acute, exhaustive exercise, oral glutamine supplementation has been shown to attenuate the exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration when administered during exercise and in recovery (15). In this situation, glutamine supplementation after exercise may prevent the decrease in glutamine availability to skeletal muscle and further elevate the production and release of IL-6 from skeletal muscle.



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Glutamine supplementation further enhances exercise-induced plasma IL-6
N. His****,1,2 E. W. Petersen,1,2 K. Krzywkowski,1,2 J. Boza,4 J. Halkjaer-Kristensen,3 and B. K. Pedersen1,2


From this, they invested the the effect of oral glutamine and glutamine-rich protein supplementation on plasma IL-6 concentration in response to acute exercise. It was hypothesized that supplementation with glutamine and glutamine-rich protein would attenuate the exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration and result in a further elevation in plasma IL-6 concentration via enhanced release from working skeletal muscle.

Eight healthy men participated in a randomized, double-blind, crossover study in which they performed 2 h of cycle ergometry at 75% of peak O2 uptake. They received glutamine, glutamine-rich protein, or placebo supplementation at intervals during and 2 h after exercise. Exercise induced an 11-fold increase in plasma IL-6, which was further enhanced by glutamine (18-fold) and glutamine-rich protein (14-fold) supplementation, administered at doses that attenuated the exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration.

Here are some excellent quotes from the full text of there research article:

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RECENT STUDIES HAVE DEMONSTRATED that acute exercise elevates plasma levels of interleukin-6 (IL-6) up to 100-fold (12). This increase has been attributed to an increase in the release of IL-6 from contracting skeletal muscle (17). It has been suggested that muscle-derived IL-6 works in a hormone-like fashion, exerting its effect on liver and fat tissue (13); however, the exact mechanisms for the production, release, and biological roles of IL-6 are not known.
The amino acid glutamine is produced predominantly in skeletal muscle and, within muscle, plays a role in the synthesis and breakdown of proteins (14). Glutamine transport in skeletal muscle occurs predominantly via the insulin-sensitive Nm transport system, and it has been shown that muscle glutamine uptake is largely regulated by glutamine availability (4), such that a decrease in arterial glutamine concentration decreases the rate of glutamine uptake into skeletal muscle. Considering its role within skeletal muscle in protein synthesis, it is possible that a decrease in glutamine uptake may inhibit the production of IL-6


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Plasma glutamine concentration. There was no effect of time on plasma glutamine concentration in the Gln and Pro experimental groups (Fig. 1; P &gt; 0.05). That is, glutamine and protein supplementation were able to attenuate the exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration. However, in the Plac group, there was a significant decrease in plasma glutamine concentration at 2 h after exercise compared with preexercise and immediately after exercise.


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The main finding of this study was that the exercise-induced increase in circulating IL-6 was further enhanced by glutamine and glutamine-rich protein supplementation, administered at doses that attenuated the exercise-induced decrease in plasma glutamine concentration.


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In all groups, plasma IL-6 concentration increased in response to acute exercise. This has been shown in previous studies, and this increase is likely due to an increase in the production and release of IL-6 from the working skeletal muscle (17). The augmented increase in plasma IL-6 in the Gln and Pro groups, however, may be explained by an increase in skeletal muscle glutamine uptake, which then stimulates a further increase in IL-6 production. A decrease in skeletal muscle glutamine uptake may result in a decrease in its metabolism within the muscle, lowering the production and release of IL-6, and also attenuate the release of glutamine into the circulation. However, when glutamine concentration is maintained during exercise by supplementation, skeletal muscle uptake is maintained, and the production and release of IL-6 are further enhanced.

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I could go on and on. The results are overwhelming.

In conclusion:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/targetlg.jpg

Destination: Dismantling Fallacies has once again prevailed. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Vlad]

This is massacre!

[Armor for Sleep]

I love seeing the crusades against BS on this site. It's kind of like the book Ender's Game, where Ender was never content with simply defeating his enemy, he had to outright destroy him and leave no chance of rebuttal.

[President Wilson]

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I love seeing the crusades against BS on this site. It's kind of like the book Ender's Game, where Ender was never content with simply defeating his enemy, he had to outright destroy him and leave no chance of rebuttal.

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Nice analogy /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Basstart]

The fact of the matter is, you can find a study to support an argument, but you can easily find another study to support the other side of an argument. It creates an impasse.
Personally, I would follow ABC's principles over those of any other website.

[Venom]

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I love seeing the crusades against BS on this site. It's kind of like the book Ender's Game, where Ender was never content with simply defeating his enemy, he had to outright destroy him and leave no chance of rebuttal.

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Nice lol /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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This is massacre!


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Yup /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[JamesP]

Im loving this, keep up the good word mods!

[djs2000]

These studies are using l-glutamine, correct?

If so, is there any reason to shell out the extra loot for glutamine peptide?

[Floods]

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Reading Venoms' (2004) aforementioned glutamine article is more than enough evidence, but here is some more anyway.

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Hah! Name-checking yourself /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Seriously though guys, I love the way you mods, take a fallacy that's juiced up with someone pretending to actually know what they're talking about - an abstract even, and then you guys just absolutely tear it apart, with references to solidify what you're saying. For one so 'young' in the sport, ABC is definately music to my ears /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[lil Zé]

true... im not explicitly or implicitly saying anything but what are ur creds? bachelors? masters? docs? profs?
and the vs?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Venom]

Post deleted by Venom

[blaine]

Where do you get all these studies?
Is there a site on the internet with a search engine where you just type a topic and then all the studies are listed?

[Adam Knowlden]

In some instances. Most often you have to subscribe to a journal and pay a annual fee. You might be able to find abstracts, and occasionally full text.

[Leafy Green Vegetables]

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Where do you get all these studies?
Is there a site on the internet with a search engine where you just type a topic and then all the studies are listed?

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You could also find many of them at a university's library, especially if the school offers physiology or medical degrees.