I sent my Aunt 3 abc articles, who is a "registered dietitian" and here's her response...

[Derganc]

First off, I'm not here to start problems, I'm just curious to see what people think.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry it took so long. I did wade through the 3 articles you linked me to. The basic premise that you need to refuel after a vigorous workout - aerobic or muscle building is absolutely right. All the scientific lingo is for show and often not even accurate. Then the leaps from the facts (sometimes fact, some times misstatements) are ridiculous. The best chuckle I had was drinking your shake, then eating a mouthful of creatine. Where did he get that?


Anyway, the best thing for you to do is start over using some reliable sources.


http://www.acsm.org/pdf/fitsociety/fitsc302.pdf

Especially see the Question and Answer Section - 1st question

http://www.acsm.org/index.asp

This is the home page for the above in case it doesn't work

If you want I will do the calculations for the protein, fat and carbs that you need for muscle building. You probably do need some sort of supplement because you need a lot of protein and calories - more than you can eat in meals. It is a good idea to replenish your body soon after a work out. Since it is not easy to store regular food - high protein, high calorie bars are good and Gatorade or other "sports drink" is good.

Let me know about the web sites. If you have questions along the way I will try to help. Just email or call. See you Thanksgiving if not before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, the three articles I sent here where:
http://abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php
http://abcbodybuilding.com/dextrose.php
http://abcbodybuilding.com/hydration.php

Any response, backing up the articles, or things to respond with would be appreciated. I'll ask her whatever questions you have, also.

Thanks,
Mike

[dunno]

Calling information "inaccurate" is not very valid unless you atleast name a few examples..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Derganc]

Thanks, Joe Yu King. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I never really listen to her too much.(she's one of those people against creatine) I was just curious on what you thought about it. I sent your responce to her, and I'll post what she emails me next.

Thanks again

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Derganc]

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, I am compiling a meta-analysis on creatine for next month that will be the most scientifically accurate creatine article written thusfar. I would love to see her try and refute several hundred medical studies regaring a single topic. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I CAN'T WAIT! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I've been waiting for something that would just make her shut up about it once and for all. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[theory]

Im a bit confused, she says PWO recomended in the WoO is not good, but a high protien bar/gatorade is better, but in terms of macros isnt that very simmilar to what WoO recomends?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[theory]

Sorry I didnt word my question properly, I ment I was confused why she thought the protien bar and macros are better even though the POW shake has very simmilar macros

[Dauthi]

Even though it has all those extra ingredients? I have absolutely no idea.

Maybe it's because the protein bars usually come with some assortment of vitamins and minerals.

[goldenboy]

Know this sort of unsurported but.....I had a nutritionist talk to my gym class, and she was talking about bb. She touched on all sort of things that are preached here at ABC. She talked about how important calories and carbs are to bulking up, and it's not just protien. She ripped into all suplments and said just about all that she saw was crap, she told us to get the simplest stuff you can find. Anyhooo, the only reason I remember this is because she ripped into Gatorade.

[Andrew G.]

[ QUOTE ]
Know this sort of unsurported but.....I had a nutritionist talk to my gym class, and she was talking about bb. She touched on all sort of things that are preached here at ABC. She talked about how important calories and carbs are to bulking up, and it's not just protien. She ripped into all suplments and said just about all that she saw was crap, she told us to get the simplest stuff you can find. Anyhooo, the only reason I remember this is because she ripped into Gatorade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like she may know what she's talking about /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That Aunt's response really annoyed me, I get the feeling she didnt understand half of it.

[Dmitri]

If your aunt is so strongly against creatine, I don't see why you would consult for more many BB needs. No offense, but, what's she got against creatine? At least the "informed" people don't rip into our oatmeal stores...

[Derganc]

"If your aunt is so strongly against creatine, I don't see why you would consult for more many BB needs. No offense, but, what's she got against creatine? At least the "informed" people don't rip into our oatmeal stores..."

She does know what she is talking about for somethings, but I wasn't really consulting her. It's just that my whole family calls me ignorant for not listening to her, when this is her "field". (not really, but oh well) And I wanted to see what she had to say about those links, and this site, to see if she could find any problems with it.

[Dmitri]

Oh, well sorry, I slightly misunderstood you. Lots of Nutritionists don't agree with many bodybuilding beliefs and such, because well, they know what average people need, and bodybuilders and extreme athletes need a lot more of things.

[Ultra Man]

agreed, even my doctor thinks im ridiculous

"this chart says at 6'6'' you should weigh 200 lbs, your 45 pounds overweight"

"5000 calories a day!! thats way too much, eat less for your health"

i guess muscle has no mass. i changed doctors after that discussion...

[Dmitri]

My personal doctor has a son and a nephew my age who also play football, etc, and luckily he understands everything I'm talking about. He is the only medical person who approves of my durrent cutting diet.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
The best chuckle I had was drinking your shake, then eating a mouthful of creatine.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a good idea to replenish your body soon after a work out.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she understood the concept of the post workout scenario she would realize the above statements completely contradict one another.

She can e-mail if she would like, since she seems to be analyzing my article. But she may want to have better arguements than the above.

[PoppinFresh]

old people, stuck in their ways! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[book]

I have 0 faith in any other source besides ABC as do many others. That speaks a lot for what information comes out of here - the best.

[ash88]

I don't understand. If it's working for you (that is, you're putting on LBM, you're not injuring yourself, you're taking in more vitamins than the average person, you're healthy, you're fit) then why would you listen to someone else?

If it works for you, then what's the difficulty? Why do you even feel the need to convince someone else to change their point of view? Just rip of your shirt and show them your abs, or the 16 inch peak in your biceps.

Just tell them that after you drink the shake, your whole body feels like its been rejuvenated and refreshed as all the energy comes back into the system. And that your resting pulse rate is probably fantastic. And the having muscle on your body is a GOOD thing, and that eating even more vegetables than your average human is ALSO a good thing.

Sheesh.

[Coz]

I'm a little confused. Your aunt didn't say anything. She is chuckling and disagreeing yet saying nothing at the same time. Tell her to bring evidence to the table.

[donaldj]

Buy a copy of this book and after you read it send it to your aunt.

Nutrient Timing: The Future of Sports Nutrition
by John Ivy, Robert Portman

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[NutMeg]

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I don't really recommend tearing into your aunt, don't be disrespectful! But I do think that if your aunt was a sports nutritionist or had more insight to that field, she wouldn't be so negative. I'm a little baffled that she would say "high calorie" or "gatorade" is good after a workout, because it isn't, and my recent nutrition classes discuss this. More so because there are more things in gatorade or other commerical products like it than electrolytes and water and they aren't necessarily good for you. Let me not even think about the fat in a pw bar. You can ask your aunt what she know about nutrition for athletes and how it should differ. But since that isn't her area of expertise, take it as you will.

[PainMan]

Derganc, if I could be so bold, I'd suggest that both your aunt and Joe (and others) are both right......in a way. Here's why.

As an RD, I wonder how many people that she counsels are serious body builders. We all know that the dietary needs of a body builder are significantly different than that of your average person. Does the average person take or even need creatine? Not likely. So, I suspect most of her advice is based on the needs of average folks who get some or possibly even no meaningful exercise. For the average person who goes for a 20 minute run now and then, gatorade isn't such a bad thing to take after (but there's likely better).

The advice from those on this site are based on the needs of a body builder. We need more protein, a specific PWO routine and just a far different nutritional program than anyone else. Creatine is very useful for weight training but would an RD even recommend it to your average person?

My point is that advice is only useful if its applicable to someone's specific activities. And, I'm guessing that your aunt's clientelle do not have many serious body builders thus her knowledge wouldn't be as strong in that area. Here, most are serious body builders and the advice given is more suitable to us.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Derganc]

Thanks for all the replys! Also, OldSchool, I gave her your email. I'm not sure if she's planning on email you or not, but we'll see. Anyway, thanks again for all the replys.

[Bob22b]

[ QUOTE ]
Buy a copy of this book and after you read it send it to your aunt.

Nutrient Timing: The Future of Sports Nutrition
by John Ivy, Robert Portman

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this that one book spouting some new product?

They advocate a 4:1 carb to protein ratio in a PWO shake, and then go on to say, "WOW! look at this new product, it's perfect for everything I talk about in the book!" /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I'm pretty sure the professor writing it is here at UT, woot! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ryancostill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Buy a copy of this book and after you read it send it to your aunt.

Nutrient Timing: The Future of Sports Nutrition
by John Ivy, Robert Portman

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this that one book spouting some new product?

They advocate a 4:1 carb to protein ratio in a PWO shake, and then go on to say, "WOW! look at this new product, it's perfect for everything I talk about in the book!" /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I'm pretty sure the professor writing it is here at UT, woot! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


If that is the case then i wouldnt put too much faith in what the book preaches. I wouldnt be too keen on any book seemingly based in science that then goes on to try and sell you a commercial product.

[President Wilson]

I saw someone on whos online reading this.

Thanks for writting. We are actually exercise nutritionalists with specialties in exercise, nutrition and metabolism, so its great to hear from someone else in a dietary field. Though It did not sound as if she was familiar with exercise nutrition following training.


[ QUOTE ]
All the scientific lingo is for show and often not even accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please ask her for examples /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Then the leaps from the facts (sometimes fact, some times misstatements) are ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, the best thing for you to do is start over using some reliable sources.


http://www.acsm.org/pdf/fitsociety/fitsc302.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]

Many of our references are from ACSM. They wholly back our protocoll of a high glycemic index carb post workout.

[ QUOTE ]
This is the home page for the above in case it doesn't work

If you want I will do the calculations for the protein, fat and carbs that you need for muscle building. You probably do need some sort of supplement because you need a lot of protein and calories - more than you can eat in meals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I am not seeing how she is addressing the post workout protocol here.

[ QUOTE ]
high calorie bars are good

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually high calorie bars are loaded with fat and sucrose, as well as high fructose corn syrup. This is scientifically completely against what you want after you train

[ QUOTE ]
and Gatorade or other "sports drink" is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually while gatorade will help, it and other sports drinks contain fructose in many cases, as well as sucrose. Fructose will not significantly replenish muscle glycogen levels (see article).

So the question is not what is 'good' but what is optimal.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me know about the web sites. If you have questions along the way I will try to help. Just email or call. See you Thanksgiving if not before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad she looked at the articles, but I would suggest studying the science behind the subject. As a dieticiant adding a proper post workout science to her weoponry would be very beneficial /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Glad she checked out the site. And if she has any questions on the science of exercise nutrition, we would be glad to be of assistance!

Thanks!

[Becks23]

my roommate is on his way to being a RD, as well as my mom (who's out of practice for almost 20 years since I was born) and they both don't agree wtih the way I do things

[Absolute]

Most people don't know what they are talking about. It's the sad truth. That is why I feel I am so lucky to have encountered ABC. I work in a gym with other personal trainers who don't preach what I practice and certainly don't practice it themselves. Because of this, I see myself at a distinct advantage to do big things in this industry.

[kwood34]

Old habits die hard. Try convincing people that fruit isn't great if you are trying to lose weight. Its an up hill battle.

The information presented at ABC is cutting edge and everyone else is lagging behind. Just look at the research provided.

[Derganc]

Wow! President Wilson, I was a little surprised when I saw this thread again. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'll be sure to send your response her way. She's pretty busy, but I'll try to get her response.

To be honest, I don't belive she fully read all of the information I sent her in her first reply, as she has a prejudice against anyone using and/or endorsing creatine. (/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) She is still concerned about the safety, and says there are no long term studies of the safety. I'd love to have you two debate it so you could show her how much you guys really know, not just blindly supporting products. I was meaning to send her the "Creatine A Meta Analysis" by Yu (which I'll do right now /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), but I did print it out for my parents, and now my Dad seems pretty confident in you guys. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it. I'll try to get her to respond and/or email you guys.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your time, I really appreciate it. I'll try to get her to respond and/or email you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you as well.

I am glad your aunt is interested in the subject. Please give her my best.

And I am glad your Dad read the Creatine article!

[Derganc]

I just got an email from my aunt, who was looking at the Dextrose article ( http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/dextrose.php ) and found a problem with the this part -

[ QUOTE ]
The next question is, why not just use maltodextrin, and eliminate dextrose since it is so proficient? Ah, once again it is not that simple. Shi. X et al. in an outstanding study, tested the digestive effects of two substrates (any substance acted upon by an enzyme) as opposed to only one substrate in the small intestine. What they found was quite fascinating. The solution containing two substrates stimulated the activation of more transport mechanisms in the intestinal lumen, than did its singular counterpart. Therefore, more carbohydrates were transported out of the small intestine (absorbed into the blood), which additionally aided a greater absorption rate of water into the blood stream (by osmosis). Thus, the higher activation rate of transport mechanisms, even with higher osmolarity facilitated faster energy uptake and hydration (12)!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, she sent me the source -


[ QUOTE ]
Shi X, Summers RW, Schedl HP, Flanagan SW, Chang R, Gisolfi CV.

Department of Exercise Science, University of Iowa, Iowa City 52242, USA.
We studied intestinal absorption of solutions containing either one (glucose, Glu, or maltodextrin, Mal) or two (fructose, Fru, and Glu or sucrose, Suc) transportable carbohydrate (CHO) substrates using segmental perfusion technique in eight healthy male subjects. These CHO were either free or directly transportable monosaccharides (Glu, Fru), bound as the disaccharide (sucrose, Suc), or as oligomers (maltodextrins, Mal). [CHO] was varied from 6% to 8% (120-444 mmol.1(-1)). All solutions contained low [Na+] (15-19 mEq) and [K+] (3-4 mEq). Solutions osmolalities varied from 165 to 477 mOsm.kg(-1). Osmolalities in the test segment ranged from 268 to 314 mOsm.kg(-1). The regression line of osmolality with water absorption differed for single as compared with multiple substrate solutions. The significantly different intercepts of these two regression lines suggest that solutions with multiple substrates produce greater water absorption at a given osmolality than those with one. Comparing all solutions, test segment solute flux (partial r = 0.69) was more important than mean osmolality (partial r = 0.32). In conclusion, solutions with multiple substrates stimulate several different solute absorption mechanisms yielding greater water absorption than solutions with only one substrate.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8614315&dopt=Citation

Well what she was telling me was that the only advantage from this would be more water absorption, which would mostly only help endurence athletes. I can't understand a lot of that, but from what I could understand, what she was saying seems logical. Could you please clear this up for me?

[Grim001]

If more water is absorbed, doesn't it make sense that it would carry more carbs with it?

Anyhow, nutritional science was barely in its infancy a few decades ago, and it is still in a primitive stage for most perposes. Just look at how far the USDA's suggestions have taken the American public... into obesity. They are obviously not working.

The guidelines that nutritionists set for the general public are insufficient for the sedentary lifestyle that most Americans lead, much less the for an athlete. If someone's only credential is that they have been trained to parrot the currently accepted methods of nutrition, then I don't respect them as a source of information as much as I would someone who's read ABC's articles.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Well what she was telling me was that the only advantage from this would be more water absorption, which would mostly only help endurence athletes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell her great question!. There are actually several advantages

However to directly address Hydration. It is absolutely imparative to athletes training for hypertrophy. Numerous studies show a direct coorilation between myofibrillar hydration and the rate of protein synthesis

Haussinger D et al. (1993) showed incredible evidence that cellular hydration is an important factor in controlling cellular protein turnover, while protein synthesis and degradation are affected in opposite directions by cell shrinking, and that an increase in cellular hydration (swelling) acts as an anabolic agent, whereas cell shrinkage is catabolic. They state that ' Thus, cell swelling triggers an anabolic, proliferative pattern of metabolism, whereas cell shrinkage is a catabolic and antiproliferative signal. '

Waldegger S et al. concluded from an extensive review that that, “In the past few years, the paramount importance of cell volume for the regulation of cell function, including protein metabolism, has been recognized. Among many other effects, cell swelling inhibits proteolysis and stimulates protein synthesis, whereas cell shrinkage stimulates proteolysis and inhibits protein synthesis.”

Brad Schoenfeld [7] displayed great evidence that a hydrated cell stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits proteolysis, in effect, providing muscles with the raw material to lay down new contractile proteins (myosin and actin).

Additionally, Millar ID examined the effect of cell volume on protein synthesis [21]. The results strongly suggest that cell volume is an important cellular signal for the control of protein synthesis in general.

So as is clearly displayed, hydration is a highly anabolic agent.

references

Haussinger D, Roth E, Lang F, Gerok W.Cellular hydration state: an important determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease. Lancet. 341:(8856)1330–1332. 1993.

Waldegger S, Busch GL, Kaba NK, Zempel G, Ling H, Heidland A, Haussinger D, Lang F. Effect of cellular hydration on protein metabolism.

Millar ID Mammary protein synthesis is acutely regulated by the cellular hydration state.

Brad Schoenfeld Repetitions and Muscle Hypertrophy, Journal of Strength and Conditioning

Therefore optimal hydration is critical for bodybuilders

[Pacman]

She is a dietitian speaking, out of her area of expertise, with a different view. You will not find a dietitian who will recommend or understand the info from this site. That's not what they do.

[tarheelsykes]

It has always made me laugh how I would start a training program for someone, and they would argue with me about it due to something they saw on Oprah, or read in People magazine. There is little doubt that many people don't take our field seriously. people will ask me about my Masters degree, and when I state it is in exercise physiology, they look at me like i'm making a joke. It is amazing so few people take it seriously, yet so many are unhappy about their body and in poor health.
Bottom line, everything I read or look at, I take from a very scientific view. And after reading almost every article on this site, there is nothing that can be seen as inaccurate. Hands down, best website out there.I personally pray that someday people will realize how much we do to improve our bodies, that while the diet and exercise seems extreme, and it is, but it gets the job done.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line, everything I read or look at, I take from a very scientific view. And after reading almost every article on this site, there is nothing that can be seen as inaccurate. Hands down, best website out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

That means a lot to us! Thank you very much!

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line, everything I read or look at, I take from a very scientific view. And after reading almost every article on this site, there is nothing that can be seen as inaccurate. Hands down, best website out there.I personally pray that someday people will realize how much we do to improve our bodies, that while the diet and exercise seems extreme, and it is, but it gets the job done.

[/ QUOTE ]

That you very much, tarheelsykes. That does mean a lot to us. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif And good job on reading all those articles. /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Derganc]

Thanks for clearing that up President Willson. I'll show my aunt. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh and just to comment on what tarheelsykes said, I'm the same exact way. Sometimes I like going to the other sites, just to read what trash they're publishing. It's become almost like a game for me, finding all the problems with them, almost like I'm testing what I've leard. I guess I'm just weird.. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif