Squat Videos

[sta63bmx]

Yeah, a disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: Lifting weights can be dangerous. So learn how to do it right, and it won't be so dangerous. Do stupid, ego-driven stuff with bad form, and you can hurt yourself permanently. Learning proper form will prevent at least 85% of injuries in the weightroom, I bet. The following post shows a few clips of different squat forms and the #1 mistake people make. Kick back and learn from a pro. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

DISCLAIMER #2: Everything in the first disclaimer is good up until the last sentence. This guy isn't a professional, he's the same loser who loaded up on pizza last night and STILL couldn't get 315x20 on DL this morning! He is lame.

DISCLAIMER #3: Am not.

DISCLAIMER #4: Are too.

Editor's Note: Let's just get on with it, shall we?

Squat Overview

Face it. If you want big legs, you need to squat. The squat is right at the core of any serious mass/strength building program. But how do you squat? What should your form look like? How wide should your stance be? Do your toes point in or out? The answer to all these questions is IT DEPENDS. What is your goal? What are you trying to do by squatting?

The Two Schools of Squatting

You may hear people talk crap about a powerlifting-style squat, and you may hear them deride it as nothing but a big good morning. There is some validity to these comments, but a PL style squat gets down to parallel, right?

Note: Going "parallel" means your thighs are parallel to the floor at the bottom of the lift.

A more classical bodybuilding or Olympic-style squat is favored by a lot of lifters. Why?

What Does The Squat Work?

Everything but pecs. Ha ha. It's close. The squat works the entire posterior chain (glutes, lumbars, hams), your core (lumbars and abs), and pretty much everything in your legs. So why is one form different from another.

A wider-stance powerlifting style squat places most of the load on the hams, glutes, lumbars, and hip flexors, and not as much on the quads. This lets you handle more weight without beating on your knees, generally. A narrower BBing-style squat features a lot more quad, and may be more useful if you're looking to build that area. But I think it has the potential to beat up your knees more.

What Are The Variables?

I believe the most important variables in squatting are...

1. Stance width
2. Shin angle
3. Foot placement (toes straight or out to the sides)
4. Butt motion

I don't want to try and explain all of this in detail, because I don't have all night. Go read the squat form posts in my sig if you want some details, especially on foot placement and stance width. The box squat article and the squat form article both cover these areas.

Stance Width

Squatting wider tends to load you more like a PL-style squat with less quad. The narrower you go, you'll generally feel more quad work. Everyone is built differently, and it may tke you a while to find your comfort zone. I started squatting narrower, but within a few months, my stance started drifing wider and wider. It just felt better, that's all. See what feels good for you. My toes are about 40-42" apart in a regular squat. I'm 5'10" with a 28" inseam. Yes, you hear that right. Now give me back my Lucky Charms.

Shin Angle

If your knees drift way too far forward, I would say your shin angle is "too great". Ideally, your shins would stay vertical or slightly back from vertical. If your knees drift forward past your toes, it can be pretty painful squatting with any appreciable weight. Trust me here. If you don't believe it, go light and fool around with this. If your knees drift too far forward, it can be very painful, and tear up your knees. Most people squat too narrow and have too much shin angle, which is why they quarter squat, cause they CAN'T go any deeper. That's lame.

Foot Placement

This is something fun to play with. Try this with a wider stance squat. If you point your toes straight forward and squat, it will greatly increase the tension in your hip flexors. This gives you some more spring at the bottom. If you point your toes out, it's easier to get a little deeper, but you won't have that extra hip flexor "spring" coming out of the hole.

Butt Motion

Critical. You need to squat back, not down. If you begin the motion by pushing your butt back and down, you can keep your balance wihout bringing your knees way far forward. Pushing back and down into the squat with your butt is correct, not squatting "down" like most people do.

Phases of the Squat

You may see some or all of these in some or all of the videos.

1. Unracking the weight is the first step. You want to get the bar low on your back, down off your traps, riding across your back in that groove made by your rear/side delts. Then you lock in the strong arch and you literally then "arch" the bar out of the rack rather than "squatting" it up.

2. Stepping back is next. You want to have as short of a walkout as possible. You need to have a strong core to be able to do this. Don't lose your arch! Once you are ready to get booty down, tighten your core as much as possible (or press your abs out against your belt, if you're wearing one), and you may want to squeeze the bar hard as you start down. Oftentimes squeezing the bar hard makes you reflexively tighten your core as much as possible.

3. As you begin the motion, lead back and down with your butt, and your upper body will usually follow correctly. I look up, because keeping your head up will help you maintain he correct arch in your back. Keeping an arch means it will be easier to keep your upper body rigid. They don't call it the strong arch for nothing. There is a psot about this in my sig, too.

4. When you get to the bottom and start the reversal, it is critical to avoid getting bent over. This is how many lifts are missed. You want to drive from the heels; you don't want to lean forward. Push your feet apart and "spread the floor" and concentrate on pushing your knees out so they don't come together and make you miss. Think about driving your hips under the bar and arching up out of the hole.

5. Walking back in is the opposite of walking out. Don't try to set the bar in the hooks, since you're tired. Just slam the bar forward against the uprights and let it grind down into place.

The Videos

Before you make fun of my garage gym, remember that I can probably get a better workout in this crude, dirty place than you can get from $200,000 worth of Paramount gear. Tom Katz lifted in his garage. Anyways.

Don't Have Kids

I can't even walk into the rack without having a ton of junk in my way. Sometimes I fantasize about a hot chick (NOT my wife) inviting me to take a PWO shower with her. I go back to her apartment and then distract her and run in the bathroom and lock the door so I can take a shower with NO SLIMY CHILDREN'S TOYS IN THE WAY, and I can wash with real soap, not baby soap. Here's me headed to the rack. I don't remember what I kicked, but the cat was in the way. You can tell I'm pissed about all the junk in there. This just made me laugh, that's all.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/gotkids.avi

The Poser!

You know this guy. He's the one with a copy of Maxim that he reads while sitting on the bench with a bottle of Propel. He's a quarter-squatting mirror queen, and he looks JUST LIKE THIS, only I squatted too deep imitating him. Don't be this guy.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/poser.avi

Bad Form Guy

This is typical. Stance too narrow, shins come forward, heels come up. People attribute this to a lack of flexibility, but it usually means their form is screwed up. Watch my heels. Watch my shins. Don't be this person. You can put some fivers or something under your heels if you want to squat like this to try and hit more quad, but I don't like the shin angle on my knees, and I think it's better to learn how to manipulate your form without needing the fives. Besides, walking out with a bunch of weight and then dancing around trying to get your heels on the fives is annoying. I'm going way deeper than most people to get my heels to come up. When people are doing a half rep and their heels are coming up, something is drastically, terribly wrong with their form.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/badformside.avi

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/badformback.avi

Olympic Style Guy

Rory and Willie both squat like this. And they both have bigger quads than I do. And if Tom Platz can do 500x23 with this form, you know it isn't killing him. Watch closely and compare this to bad form guy. Similar stance width, but my heels never come up. (The similar width is why there isn't a back shot here...) This WILL pound your quads. Keep an eye on your knees. I don't like to squat this way, since it hurts my knees. Moreover, I can do front squats for quads, so I just stick with that.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/olympicside.avi

Powerlifter Guy

Watch the back shot first, then the side. I can go a little wider than this, but this is a comfy width for me. My toes are slightly out in the back shot. I need that extra hip spring when I go really deep, like when I use the 8" box. I usually go toes barely out because I don't need the extra spring. This for will let you handle a lot of weight without beating up your knees. Don't listen to people who say going to parallel is dangerous, because THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO SQUAT!!!!! In the side shot, my toes are straight forward. It is literally hard for me to get down to parallel with just 135 on the bar.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/pl1back.avi

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/plside2.avi

Conclusion

What I like may not be what you like. There is no substitute for time under the bar. So squat and see what floats your boat, and keep a close eye on your knees!

[Tanuki]

Olympic style all da way baby!

[OUTLAW20SICX]

awsome post, and lol at the first vid. and u should get some cream for that itch in the 3rd vid.

[sotzo]

Nice post! Cute cat.

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
awsome post, and lol at the first vid. and u should get some cream for that itch in the 3rd vid.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That is a LONG standing habit with me when I walk away from a squat set, though, especially on a day like today after I've run a lot of volume and I'm tight. I had an inguinal hernia back in '99 on the right side of my body. Ever since then, whenever my abs get worked over in a day doing heavy squats or deadlifts, they always hurt different from one side to the other. It drives me crazy, because I'm always paranoid about getting another hernia, and I ALWAYS feel the two sides way at the bottom of my lower stomach to make sure they feel the same and that I DON'T have another hernia there.

It was genetic, and my grandfather had them on both sides. I was told the odds of recurrence after a fix are pretty much zero, and the odds of the other side developing a hernia are pretty slim. However, when I feel that ache, I am always feeling my stomach to make sure everything is kosher.

Last time I went a while before I caught it, and I worked with a hernia from August until March of the next year. Including shoveling out grain bins over the winter. I don't recommend that, but I didn't have time to stop and get it fixed. Ugh.

True story. I woke up feeling ok the day after the surgery (it's outpatient), and I just had to move real slow for a couple weeks, but if I did that, no pain at all. Surgery was on a Friday, and Monday we went to the hospital to see my wife's grandma. I shuffle into the elevator real slow, and who is on it but the doctor who stitched me up. I don't think I was supposed to be out and about, and I thought he was gonna get pissed. He looks at me and just goes "How ya feeling?" I'm glad he didn't [*%#*%*#] me out.

[JoeGT]

I love the sequence of poses you do in the second video, haha. I love the guys who flex their arms after squatting, because you know, squatting really works out your biceps! haha. And the thumbs up is a great addition too, lol.

I am going pretty light weight on squats right now, just because I want to get my form down first. I always put fivers under my heels. Once I find a form that I think is great, and won't hurt me when I up the weight, then I will start blasting my quads big time.

[Floods]

ROFL!

If there is one person on this board I HAVE to meet when I make it to America, it's you JP /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The flexing after the squat, and the thumbs up really gets the pump happening in those legs doesn't it!!! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Classic /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Floods

[mr.selfdestruct]

Is it ok for your lower back to round at the bottom like that (talking about powerlifting style lift here)? Mine does that too slightly but I always thought that was just 'cuz I have poor flexibility.

[ryancostill]

outstanding post. This is getting copied, pasted and saved.

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it ok for your lower back to round at the bottom like that (talking about powerlifting style lift here)? Mine does that too slightly but I always thought that was just 'cuz I have poor flexibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine usually does that the most when I...

1. Go really, really deep

2. Go ultra-wide, toes straight forward

I have discussed this with Nick, a PL friend of mine, and I am wondering if I don't arch enough to stop that from happening. Good observation.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this. Yes, I did this in boxers. I totally forgot. If any of the ladies of the site are experiencing hot flashes, that may be why....

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Not really. I really like lifting (esp. squat and DL) in boxers, but you can't do that at the gym. Unless it's really hot and you are pissed that DCR won't turn on the air, and you just say screw it and strip down to boxers and get to work. BTDT!

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
I have fiscussed this with Nick

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that a technical squatting term? Could we see a video of the two of you fiscussing?

[sta63bmx]

You wise-[*%#*%*#]! LMAO I just edited this. I'm going to write "Tuf Is A Poo-Poo Head" on your windshield in shoe polish. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Tuf]

^^^LOL

[sta63bmx]

If your Dad doesn't shoot me first. It might distract me from the pain in my adductors...

[Coz]

Hey JP I bet your cat can't do this:

http://www.cyabc.ca/upload/cat-exercise.jpg

[sta63bmx]

My mother-in-law has a poster with that picture. It's pretty cute. My cats specialize in knocking crap on the floor and breaking dishes. Fortunately my child gets even with them...

[Floods]

Coz - is that you in your avatar ? You have awesome definition if it is /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mr.selfdestruct]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it ok for your lower back to round at the bottom like that (talking about powerlifting style lift here)? Mine does that too slightly but I always thought that was just 'cuz I have poor flexibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine usually does that the most when I...

1. Go really, really deep

2. Go ultra-wide, toes straight forward

I have discussed this with Nick, a PL friend of mine, and I am wondering if I don't arch enough to stop that from happening. Good observation.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this. Yes, I did this in boxers. I totally forgot. If any of the ladies of the site are experiencing hot flashes, that may be why....

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Not really. I really like lifting (esp. squat and DL) in boxers, but you can't do that at the gym. Unless it's really hot and you are pissed that DCR won't turn on the air, and you just say screw it and strip down to boxers and get to work. BTDT!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think it's to do with lower back or hip flexibility because it happens to me when I go real low too. Seems impossible to avoid and doesn't seem to be hurting me anyway, so I guess I won't worry about it. Now, can we have a max squat video please? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, can we have a max squat video please? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha ha ha....you people just want to see me get buried, admit it. I am going to try and max next Friday, so maybe you'll get lucky. I think I'm going to rep it out on Tuesday before I do my speed work so I'll have an idea of what to shoot for. I'm projecting around 350 right now, and I'm hoping to get 355. That would get my total up to 985, and then a 425 pull would break a thousand.

Soon, I promise. I wanna see my max squat form, too.

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
Coz - is that you in your avatar ? You have awesome definition if it is /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is me...thanks! It is at least a year old, I am in better shape now /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, can we have a max squat video please? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha ha ha....you people just want to see me get buried, admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now why would you say such a thing? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Floods]

Well Coz, if that's a year old, then you must got hella ripped now /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Corn]

awesome post dude. THANKS!

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Coz, if that's a year old, then you must got hella ripped now /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I started a bulk so I lost and will continue to lose definition. I will cut starting January 2005 and next spring I will post cut pics...unless I decide to post post bulk pics /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[Floods]

Ahh yes, the infamous bulk. I won't start bulking again until I reach 10% BF.

[Vlad]

Nice post JP!

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post JP!

[/ QUOTE ]

[book]

That poser video made me laugh so hard /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif The other video's are awesome, thanks for putting them up.

[sta63bmx]

Ha, no problem. I probably shouldn't have gone so deep in those videos, but without a box or a mirror I never know where parallel is. Those old pictures of Arnold and Dave Draper squatting, they're deep like that with weight, for reps. In deck shoes or barefoot! That is truly hardcore.

I'm glad people can get some use out of this. However, if you disagree with anything I said or have issues with any of it, PLEASE post it publicly in the thread so we can get some discussion going, since I just post whatever I think, and I am not an expert.

If I practiced, I could be an awesome gymbecile. What's sad is that watching the video, I still went too deep to play the part effectively. Training off an 8" box must do that...

I was stiff while I was making those videos, but the DOMS from the morning workout didn't REALLY set in until a few hours ago. I bent over to pick up something that fell out of my pocket outside Red Lobster and I thought they might have to serve me my dinner on the sidewalk. SOmehow I straightened up....still not sure how.

[bigmand]

Thanks for the post JP. These types of things are extremely helpful to the relatively new bodybuilder like myself.

My question is are you really supposed to go that low? I have had people and trainers tell me to just go untill you feel like your in a seated position.

[sta63bmx]

Never, ever, ever listen to someone who says that going to parallel is "bad for your joints". If somebody says that, it's because they don't know how to squat. Finding a way to make parallel feel like that comfortable seated position is the key, and that requires good form.

You don't have to go below parallel, not even to make the lift in a contest. Parallel is where the typical squat ends. However, I like going as deep as I can for a couple reasons...

1. I like doing it in my warm-up sets, since you get an awesome stretch and it aids in staying flexible.

2. It's tough to get up out of the hole, and squatting [*%#*%*#]-to-grass is entertaining in its own way.

3. Squatting wide and DEEP will put a pounding on your adductors like nothing else I've ever felt. Hip flexors and adductors can be worked really hard this way.

I also do a lot of below parallel work to help build strength out of the hole, but it may not be terribly beneficial from a bodybuilding perspective. Good luck!

[Corn]

nice shoes by the way. haha. those sneaks are awesome

[DukeOfEarl]

Your cat is awesome! lol

[sta63bmx]

Cosmo is the white cat, and Watson is the black and white one. They are both really sweet with the child, but Cosmo drives me nuts because he is always up on the counter or knocking stuff down to see if it has food in it, and he can be very destructive. She gets revenge by wrestling with them. It always starts as a hug, but then she always winds up with the cat in a headlock....

Never underestimate the power of the Chucks. If arch support is a big deal for you, the Chuck may not be the shoe for you. But when it comes to squatting, it's hard to beat. I some people have special squat shoes, or some people wear deadlift slippers or wrestling shoes when they deadlift. That's all great, but the Chuck is a good, cheap shoe for this kind of work. It has a decently thin, wide, flat sole that's very stable and great for squat and deadlift work.

No, the Chuck is not my idea. I used to wear old school Vans all the time, but I can't always tie them tight enough, and Chucks are very similar. Besides, if Louie Simmons thinks that a piece of equipment is useful, there is a good chance he's right. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

One thing I DON'T think is a good idea is squatting or deadlifting in cross-training style shoes or running shoes. They just feel too likely to roll over to me.

[Floods]

My shoes are Asics *spelling MAY be wrong*, which work great for everything. I tie them nice and tight, and they've never got in the way. With doing things like standing calf raise/seated calf raise (or any exercise that requires your foot to bend in some way) I find they're awesome. My old shpes I used to work out in were Globes, and while they're good for skating, they're definately not practical for working out in!

The things you learn over time... /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sta63bmx]

Hey, whatever works for ya. I have gotten addicted to flat shoes over the years....and I'm cheap!

[MansonOzz]

JP - you forgot "Keep your head UP".

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
3. As you begin the motion, lead back and down with your butt, and your upper body will usually follow correctly. I look up, because keeping your head up will help you maintain he correct arch in your back. Keeping an arch means it will be easier to keep your upper body rigid. They don't call it the strong arch for nothing. There is a psot about this in my sig, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have made that a point in its own right. My bad. It must have been late; look at my awful typing un-skillz.

[Adam Knowlden]

Awesome thread!!!

[ZEN MASHEENE]

[ QUOTE ]
Never, ever, ever listen to someone who says that going to parallel is "bad for your joints". If somebody says that, it's because they don't know how to squat. Finding a way to make parallel feel like that comfortable seated position is the key, and that requires good form.

You don't have to go below parallel, not even to make the lift in a contest. Parallel is where the typical squat ends. However, I like going as deep as I can for a couple reasons...

1. I like doing it in my warm-up sets, since you get an awesome stretch and it aids in staying flexible.

2. It's tough to get up out of the hole, and squatting [*%#*%*#]-to-grass is entertaining in its own way.

3. Squatting wide and DEEP will put a pounding on your adductors like nothing else I've ever felt. Hip flexors and adductors can be worked really hard this way.

I also do a lot of below parallel work to help build strength out of the hole, but it may not be terribly beneficial from a bodybuilding perspective. Good luck!

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. the only reason going parallel would be bad is because many do not possess the hip flexor/psoas flexibility to properly squat and so when they do low during a squat, they comepensate by messing up their form and thus, their knees.

[sta63bmx]

Is flexibility really an issue for a lot of people when they squat? For me, I felt pretty comfortable when I started and I was able to get down to paralle without a problem, and I didn't think I was a very flexible person then.

On the other hand, my stance kept drifting wider and wider until I was most comfortable.

Watching those people squat wrong is priceless. There was some quarter squatting action going on this morning in the leg room! Gotta love that.

[Floods]

LOL. I always squat really deep. I had the lady at the gym telling me I was going down too far... *sigh*

When will they learn that pain = good ? /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Bluenose]

Great thread JP!

I do wonder how you've managed to NOT step on one of those cats yet. I would find them distracting enough to at least kick them out while squatting.

I'm one of those inflexible ones that let my form drift as I aimed for lower to a point where I started to damage my knees, not good. I started to go wider and it was a lot more comfortable but not soon enough. I'm planning to setup my weights next month at the new place after about six months of inactivity, fresh start. Your vidclips are a great inspiration.

Jeff.

[sta63bmx]

To get low and keep your shins back, you really have to push your butt back and let yourself get bent over a little more at the waist. THe good news is that as your big butt goes back and the bar comes forward a little more, your butt keeps your shins farther back with it, making life easier on your knees. I can squat wide and deep with no problem, but even squatting light olympic-style dings my knees sometimes. Don't like that... /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Glad you got a laugh out of the videos.

[Wakeupdrug]

ya i use a wide stance like yours jp. it doesn't hurt my knees, im just not flexible or i have knee problems or somethin i just can't go down to parallel with a normal stance without falling backwards.

i used to squat with the football team and about 3/4 of the team did those quarter squats. then they go around bragging about a 300lb squat. its surprising that they don't realize how stupid they sound considering they squat with a mirror so you can see how far they're going down.

[sta63bmx]

I did manage 375x1 this morning, and yeah, no knee issues at all. It was all glute and ham. My core felt solid as a rock, too.

I woudl urge people to do all the crazy ab work possible. It won't do anything to your squat except make it freaking explode.

I would like to tape a max rep so I can watch my form, but my wife took the camera today. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif I felt solid all morning, no bent-over-ness.

[Floods]

By 'crazy ab work', what specific exercises are you talking about ? /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sta63bmx]

Sorry. Regarding the back rehab threads referenced a couple days, I had to start doing more ab work to correct "anterior pelvic tilt" or whatever you call it, hyperlordosis, or "excessive trunk junkage appearance". I do the following exercises whenever I can.

1. "Bent Leg Abs": Doing crunches with your legs on a couch, anything where your hip flexors are forced to relax. Using a decline bench will still let you use your hip flexors to help rotate yourself up. Try to have your legs just resting on top of something.

2. "Bent Leg Curls": I lay on my back on a bench with my butt hanging off, and I grab the bench up above my head. Then I bend my legs at the knees (or you can squeeze a stability ball between your feet and hams) and you do kinda like leg raises, constantly contracting your abs and kind of pulling your knees up to your shoulders.

3. "Rocky Situps": I also call these Roman Chair situps sometimes. Anything where your butt is supported but your upper body isn't. These get more hip flexor and less ab isolation, but they're still great. Especially with weight.

4. "Spread Leg Situps": Lay on the floor, hook your feet under a bar, and have your legs spread and flat on the floor and do situps.

5. "Dumbbell Side Bends": This should be in the index. It's for obliques, and possibly one of THE MOST important ab exercises.

I squatted 375 today with no belt, compared to 335 for my old max, where I wore a belt AND I weighed about 20 pounds more than I do right now. And I did it without getting bent over. That is the magic of consistent, heavy ab work.

[soccerchick]

this is a great reference, JP!

i love the cats walking around too! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sta63bmx]

I'm glad they didn't run underfoot while I was squatting...

[soccerchick]

i was waiting for that because my cat would have! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[sta63bmx]

That's what drives me crazy about them. And these two fight 24-7, like they are always wrestling around and banging into the doors and knocking stuff over. They are frightened of the DL, though, cause it's noisy.

[ThomGuns]

1. Weight pulled: 140
2. Body weight that day: 195
3. Straps, belt, chalk, etc: none
4. Sumo or regular: regular
5. Alternate or regular grip (or hook grip): regular
6. Ratio of weight pulled to bodyweight (DL/bodyweight): 0.7

What can I say? That's all the weight I have at my house. By the time I get to the gym this contest will be long over. Thought I'd post it anyway for laughs.

[ThomGuns]

Way cool video takes this forum to another dimension. We need more of it. Very entertaining JP.

[KrYptic.x]

Just be careful the way youre bending forward when you went really deep. Not good for the spine.

I do belive you commented on this earlier though..

[sta63bmx]

Yes, I am not sure totally sure why I do that. I want video of a max squat at parallel, cause I don't think it happens at parallel.

You know part of the reason I think I do that? When I squat wide like that, by the time I get to the bottom, it is nearly impossible for me to get booty down if I'm wide, with my toes forward. There is such an incredible amount of tension in my hip flexors that I feel like I simply cannot get down to parallel. I think I kind of hunch down because of that feeling.

I need to get some video of a max squat or at least parallel squat and see what happens.

I need more space for hosting these videos. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Guess_11]

Great post!

[sta63bmx]

Here's a double on box squat if you're interested in seeing that exercise. I think I'm sitting up too much on the box and consequently having to rock forward more than I want. I'm going to get some input from the PL team and I'll share their comments here. bar weight is 185, then 60 pounds of chain for a 245 lb. top weight.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/bsquat.avi

The chains are almost completely deloaded at the bottom., and they swing free at the top. They could probably be rigged a little shorter, but I don't care. It's probably less than ten pounds difference anyways.

I am very tempted to try and find a way to attach a couple of 25's to the chains so they load about halfway up...

[sta63bmx]

Ok, here's the form criticism and post from the PL boards.

ORIGINAL
[ QUOTE ]
Could people be kind enough to give this clip some form criticism? Or you can just make fun of it, it's all good.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/bsquat.avi

Parallel box (at least it looks parallel in the mirror), 185 lbs. bar weight, 60 lbs. of chain. The chain is almost all deloaded at the bottom, all on at the top. To me it looks like too much rocking on the box. I have never had any real instruction on these, and this is what I do...

1. Squat down and back onto the box. I totally sit ON THE BOX.

2. Relax as much as possible. I try to let out my hip flexors and hams. The problem is that I feel like I sit straight up too much. Sometimes it takes me a second on the box to release all the tension. I can't really do this in a down and up motion....I have to sit for a second to get relaxed, and the stretch reflex is gone by then. I have always understood that the point of the exercise is to eliminate stored tension and force a concentric lift here, but I could be wrong.

3. Explode up off the box. To come up without falling on my butt I lean forward a little more, and I think this is turning into a little too much of a rocking motion.

I wish my shins were back a little more, but my knees feel really good during this exercise and my regular squat. My feet are just barely toes out, and the oustides of my shoes are up against the sides of the non-sumo cage. Man, this is a fun exercise, but that box hurts my scrawny butt sometimes. Boo hoo.

Any form advice would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

REPLY
[ QUOTE ]
Hey your form looks really good bro. Just a few little things:

1.) You said it allready shins back. This will happen with ease after a little time on the box as you will develope better hammie strength. After you tighten everything and push your belly out hard against your belt your first movt should be BACK NOT DOWN. You should push out your !@#$%^&* backwards and REALL focuss on sitting way way back into the squat. This will build your hams ALLOT.

2.) Chains are great but I believe bands are much much better. Dont get me wrong here, I plan on using the chains every other week next cycle, but I will use bands on the other weeks. I plan on getting a lockbox for that room and we will then be able to lock up all of our stuff, including a set of bands. (we will all know the combo)

You are right the idea is relax your hips as to release that stored stretch reflex. I rock a little, but it's more just sitting way back.

Over all you look good bro. Keep hitting box squats and I promise your free squat will go up.

[/ QUOTE ]

For what it's worth, the guy responding has a total around two grand. Most of the members of the powerlifting team make me look like the Magic: The Gathering nerd that I am. Only I don't like that game.

[bigmand]

wassup JP,
I did squats today,new all time high and I went as low as Icould go. On my last two sets I noticed my knees were cracking and they are a tiny bit sore but nothing discomforting. I kept my feet just outside shoulder width apart and had my feet pointed outward. What did I do wrong?

[sta63bmx]

What does your shin angle look like? A good rule of thumb is to keep your knees behind your toes while squatting. Read through the box squat and squat form posts that are linked from my sig (useful information) and see if any of it applies to you.

If you're squatting narrow, and if you keep your upper body pretty upright, your shins typically drift forward and the net muscle moment about your knee requires a LOT of quad effort, which can be painful. You run the risk of becoming the guy on the far right in this picture.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/zatsquat.jpg

Really try to work on keeping your shins more upright so your knees are behind your toes. Things that may help...

1. Wider stance.

2. Letting your upper body lean forward more.

3. Squatting "back" and down rather than down, pushing your butt back.

The effect of wide stance is discussed in the Squat Form thread. Numbers two and three in this list...when upper body comes forward some, and you push your butt back so you can keep your balance, that helps keep your shins back.

Stay light and see if the cracking doesn't go away.

[Blux]

JP,

nice post.

So if i got this right, my knees (and shins with them) can lean forward untill they are in same (vertical) line as my toes? Similar to the 3rd guy on the picture abowe, just that his kness leaned too much forward already => not in vertical line with toes? ( reffering to https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/zatsquat.jpg )

So olympic squat should not be like this:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/badsquat.jpg
it should be like this:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat1.png
or 2nd rep that was even better:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat2.png

My problem is that fitness instructor at gym said i should not move knees forward (not at all if possible) and that quarter squars are ok /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

so will I be all right if i do with "knees in same vertical line as toes?"

In powerlifter squat video you basically don't lean forward, shns are vertical. So the vertical line up from toes is like: (or even a bit right)
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat3.png
I tend to land on my butt if i do such, without weight on my back. (tho i do try narrow stance, shoulder wide about)

I'll try box squats next time (tomorrow). Wonder if I'll be able to get up once I land on the box. Without weight too. Actually I'll try after i eat lunch (that is now, lucn that is).

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
JP,

nice post.

So if i got this right, my knees (and shins with them) can lean forward untill they are in same (vertical) line as my toes? Similar to the 3rd guy on the picture abowe, just that his kness leaned too much forward already => not in vertical line with toes? ( reffering to https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/zatsquat.jpg )

So olympic squat should not be like this:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/badsquat.jpg
it should be like this:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat1.png
or 2nd rep that was even better:
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat2.png

My problem is that fitness instructor at gym said i should not move knees forward (not at all if possible) and that quarter squars are ok /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

so will I be all right if i do with "knees in same vertical line as toes?"

In powerlifter squat video you basically don't lean forward, shns are vertical. So the vertical line up from toes is like: (or even a bit right)
http://213.189.3.111/~blux/squat/jp_squat3.png
I tend to land on my butt if i do such, without weight on my back. (tho i do try narrow stance, shoulder wide about)

I'll try box squats next time (tomorrow). Wonder if I'll be able to get up once I land on the box. Without weight too. Actually I'll try after i eat lunch (that is now, lucn that is).

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is your first time box squatting, I'd HIGHLy advise you not to go too heavy. They are MUCH more difficult then normal squats. If you do them, make sure you go BELOW parallel because thats where you will see the most benefit with them /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif To give you an example, my MAX box squat is 75lbs lower then my competition squat, and I've trained on it for years. for you, it might be an even greater difference then that.

[sta63bmx]

Do these threads ever die? Lemme go back and read the questions again.

[sta63bmx]

Ok. These are general rules, but the picture does show the trend in muscle moments about the knee. That's why a wide-stance powerlifting squat is all ham and glute, because of the change in moment about the knee. An olympic squat that's more upright will hit a lot more quad. TRY to keep your knees back some on olympic squats. They're gonna come forward some, but try to keep it from getting excessive. Pushing your butt back to move your center of gravity back, and then using the barbell to keep from falling over backwards, that's important for keeping your knees from coming way far forward.

I think too many people try to stay upright, and that's when you can jack your knees.

My box squat form has improved since that video, but I still think it's wretched. This is part of the reason the exercise index DVD would be mighty handy.

Really think about pushing your butt back and letting your upper body come forward just enough to keep balance.

[Yabbo]

i used to do the olympic squat the way youve been confirming in the last few posts. it seemed like i was working my lower back a whole lot more than my quads doing them that way, so i started doing them basically the way figure 3 looks, the one you said would cause knee problems.

i noticed the knee-problem way didnt allow me to do as much weight, which i thought was because ide been 'cheating' the whole time and using my lower back to push a lot of the weight up.

so if im understanding right, the first way i was doing it was the correct way? and it doesnt matter that much if you have to use your lower back a lot?

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]


so if im understanding right, the first way i was doing it was the correct way? and it doesnt matter that much if you have to use your lower back a lot?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on your stance bro, and the strength of your glutes and hamstrings. Often I see many people leaning too far foward when they squat because their hamstrings and glutes are weak. If your hams and glutes are strong...you can sit BACK further, and won't lean foward comming out of the hole.

[XenoWang]

I've been doing more PL style squatting lately and it's been totally sucking azz for me and I'm not sure why. At the indirect suggestion of JP I've been leaning forward a lot more with the butt out and keeping my shins more vertical. I don't know what it is but it just seems like I struggle to get the weight up doing it like this as it's putting a lot of pressure on the lower back and it seems like it's a combination of an Olympic squat and a good morning. My training partner advocates keeping the back a lot more upright so I suppose he squats a lot more Olympic style and it seems to work great for him. I tried getting the form down with Olympics today but my weight shot down immediately. I'm going to try doing Olympic squats for a while and see how it works out for me as it's a lot easier on the lower back. Any thoughts?

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been doing more PL style squatting lately and it's been totally sucking azz for me and I'm not sure why. At the indirect suggestion of JP I've been leaning forward a lot more with the butt out and keeping my shins more vertical. I don't know what it is but it just seems like I struggle to get the weight up doing it like this as it's putting a lot of pressure on the lower back and it seems like it's a combination of an Olympic squat and a good morning. My training partner advocates keeping the back a lot more upright so I suppose he squats a lot more Olympic style and it seems to work great for him. I tried getting the form down with Olympics today but my weight shot down immediately. I'm going to try doing Olympic squats for a while and see how it works out for me as it's a lot easier on the lower back. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it feels more like a good morning you might not be keeping a tight arch in your back. Also...when starting the movement for squats....do you bend at the knees first? If so...bend at the HIPS first.

Also, try looking UP during the entire squat. This has always helped me keep a tighter arch in your back. I'd tell you if you could....to either have someone take a pic of you after your deep in the hole, or get a quick video clip. A picture speaks 1000 words.

[sta63bmx]

I hate squatting in front of a mirror because I always try to watch for parallel, head goes down, and I get folded like a soggy fortune cookie. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif I like a pretty narrow grip and something on the wall or up high to focus on to keep my chest out and my back arched.

I still suck at squatting.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate squatting in front of a mirror because I always try to watch for parallel, head goes down, and I get folded like a soggy fortune cookie. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif I like a pretty narrow grip and something on the wall or up high to focus on to keep my chest out and my back arched.

I still suck at squatting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same problem for a long time. Eventually...I just "knew" how low to go. Since my hamstrings have gotten A LOT bigger since I first started....I basically go down till my hamstrings bounce off my calfs...thats when I know I'm low enough /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif (It kinda gives you a whole new reason to train those hams HARD)

You could always try to "touch" on a bench...for your warmup sets just to get a feel for how low to go.

[sta63bmx]

I am definitely getting better on depth. I've worked of a milk crate for box squats all the time, so I always go deep in a free squat. When the weight is heavy enough, the last couple inches before parallel it REALLY starts to feel different. I am still trying to learn the motion. I have to start pushing up before I hit parallel so I don't turn around TOO low, and I am trying to work on making that a natural motion so I can hit it hard and not milk it down and lose my stretch reflex.

The phrase I've heard is "drop to pop!" and I like that.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]


The phrase I've heard is "drop to pop!" and I like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the truth bro. The faster you go down, the faster your gonna come up /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif. The one day when I was working in at WS....Louie yelled at me about starting the movement by pushing my HEAD back into my traps when I came out of the hole, rather then pushing with my feet.

My next squat..he was back spotting me....I go down into the hole...and he just SCREAMS in my ear "HEAD UP!" For some reason, this helped me a lot for those first couple inches and the squat that pinned me 5 minutes before felt pretty easy.

[XenoWang]

Thing is, I'm keeping my entire back rigid and arched throughout the entire motion. I'm bending at the waist as I go down and that's why it seems like it's hitting a lot more lower back than it should.

[sta63bmx]

Are you pushing your ([---]) back to start? This STILL feels almost unnatural to me. One good way to train that "back first" mentality is to take a bench or box and put it WAY back there. I mean way back there so that if you aren't way back, you're barely going to get the lip of it. It helps motivate me to go way back since I know I'll fall on my butt if I don't get it. Just bending over if your ([---]) isn't WAY back, I don't think you will develop the hamstring tension that will help keep you upright. If your butt goes way back, it's like you'll load up the "spring" that is your hams and it will help keep you upright, I'm pretty sure.

The same way you can develop a lot of ham tension in a RDL, dimel, or SLDL by pushing your butt back, I think doing that on squat ratchets up ham tension and makes you tighter and more likely to stay upright.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, I'm keeping my entire back rigid and arched throughout the entire motion. I'm bending at the waist as I go down and that's why it seems like it's hitting a lot more lower back than it should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Next time....start by looking up and drive your head back into your traps and force your chest OUT.

Next...FILL your belly with air and press out.

After that SPREAD the floor with your feet, and force your knees OUT

THEN....start the movement with the HIPS...not the knees and sit back back back. Odds are your not doing one of these things if your backs bending that much

[XenoWang]

An issue I have with filling the belly with air and whatnot. What if I'm going for something around 8-10 reps? How is one to constantly fill the belly with air under all that stress?

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
An issue I have with filling the belly with air and whatnot. What if I'm going for something around 8-10 reps? How is one to constantly fill the belly with air under all that stress?

[/ QUOTE ]

For an 8-10 rep set it would be tough, but its still doable. Just make sure to "re-set" yourself after each rep...take in a DEEP breath....air in....belly out....and squat.

After you do it a few times, it should only take a second or two at the most to do it in between reps.

[XwiegrafX]

great article, thanks!

[sta63bmx]

Mariusz and COB in the same sig? I must be dreaming.

[XwiegrafX]

yeah that was at the arnold classic, i couldn't believe he was just walking around. and cob is definitely one of my favorite bands so i figured why not.

[ReggieRay]

[ QUOTE ]

Bad Form Guy

This is typical. Stance too narrow, shins come forward, heels come up. People attribute this to a lack of flexibility, but it usually means their form is screwed up. Watch my heels. Watch my shins. Don't be this person. You can put some fivers or something under your heels if you want to squat like this to try and hit more quad, but I don't like the shin angle on my knees, and I think it's better to learn how to manipulate your form without needing the fives. Besides, walking out with a bunch of weight and then dancing around trying to get your heels on the fives is annoying. I'm going way deeper than most people to get my heels to come up. When people are doing a half rep and their heels are coming up, something is drastically, terribly wrong with their form.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/badformside.avi

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jpowell1/www/weights/squatvids/badformback.avi



[/ QUOTE ]

OUCH! My knee would be broken after that... /forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif