What about other religions.....?

[JCKey618]

What about the Muslims and people that believe in another God? I've often thought that God would not punish people (by sending them to hell) because they were brough up to believe something different. So there must be a solution....

I believe that we all worship the same God. For examples, the Muslims (I'm leaving out the extremists who believe that God wants them to kill innocents) would be praying to the same God that we Christians are, just under a different name. How could it be any different? Why should someone be sent to hell or not be granted eternal life (when they have served their religion and their faith with as much devotion as we) because they were brought up to believe something different?

Think about it, if someone came up to you and told you that their religion (that deals with "another God") is the right one and the only way, would you just abandon Christianity? No, because you know what you believe in your heart. This is the same with other religions like Islam. A Muslim man that has been a Muslim all his life truly believes that his religion is the right one, so if you go up to him and preach Christianity, why should his reaction be any different from yours if the situation was reversed?

And what about the people that never heard of Christianity and the Bible? For example, Native Americans. They worshipped nature. I believe that this is the same as worshipping God because God is nature and he makes everything. If the Native Americans were true to their religion, lived right, and honored nature, shouldn't they also have eternal life?

So, I believe that everyone that believes in a higher power and lives right and feels a connection with this higher power is worshipping the same God as we are, just under a different name. What do you guys think?

Also, as my mom often wonders (she's a Christian, too) "Did God make all those Chinese people just to send them to hell?" because a lot of them are not Christians. Yes, they've probably heard of Christianity, but I'm willing to bet that most of them have not had someone to witness to them, to share the gospels and get them to really understand our religion. It's not their fault they do not know God, or of God.

Thoughts?

[rawb]

interesting

[Son of Shem]

i happen to agree with you. if you read the Torah and Quran, you will realize they are very similar. The Bible only starts to differ significantly in the New Testament I believe. Also, I'm not sure about this, but I have never really heard of other religions preaching and trying to convert people such as those of the Christian belief do.

[awds]

i heard that in the koran bible it says to kill all those who are not of the same religion, probably jebberish but thats what some one told me.

[JCKey618]

I specified that I was talking about the Muslims that do not blieve in killing others, just in praising and serving their God like we serve ours.

[mattbrye]

[ QUOTE ]
i heard that in the koran bible it says to kill all those who are not of the same religion, probably jebberish but thats what some one told me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats an extreme misinterpretation of what it says..the people that go on suicide missions are brainwashed by the ring leaders and think they will be rewarded to paradise if they do things like 9/11 attacks b/c they are brought up thinking americans are evil. You ever notice how the ring leaders, Saddam, Bin Laden, and those type people never claim they will take part in these acts...b/c they are more educated and understand that what they are doing is wrong, and not a true act of the muslim religion.

[JCKey618]

Can we not turn this into a debate about why terrorists kill people....please?

[rawb]

yea lets stay on subject here guys, maybe we could get some more incite, im open minded about the issue, want to get it from different perspectives

[PurposeDriven26]

Hey jckey, have you ever read the whole bible? I'll admit, I'm not completely through the old testiment yet but I have read the new testiment and your answer is answered many times in it.
The other question you asked about Adam and Eve are found in the first book of the bible. You might want to read through the bible at least once and then ask questions about stuff that doesn't make sense to you. Just a suggestion though.

[a-folov]

Islam-followers definitely worship the same god as Christians and Jews, they just believe that Jesus was a prophet, not god's son, and that Muhammed (I'm sure I misspelled it) is the final prophet, who learned the true god's word through the angel Gabriel.

Things get much more complicated when you go further East for religions.

[JCKey618]

What's the answer then, because I haven't read the whole book? If it is that God said not to worhip other gods/things, then I can say that other religions' books instruct them to do the same.

I read the part that I asked about in the Adam and Eve thread, otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question. The answer is there, but it is through interpretation that I could not see. Even the Christian who was questioned in the Scope's trial couldn't answer that question. The links the people gave me expanded on things found in the Bible that I would not have understood otherwise.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[JCKey618]

You say it is their choice to deny or accept truth, but how do they know it's the truth. They've believed something for their whole lives and then someone tells them about Christianity, why wouldn't they stick to their faith just like we stick to ours? Maybe they truly believe that they are doing the right thing, that they are serving their God rightly and fully, like we believe we are.

If someone came up to you with a book as full as the Bible and it had many teachings and it said that the only way you will have eternal life after death is to accept their religion. Would you go along with them? What if their book also said "The only way to salvation is through me?" You wouldn't convert because you have everlasting faith in your religion. Well, so do followers of other religions.

[a-folov]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Islam-followers definitely worship the same god as Christians and Jews, they just believe that Jesus was a prophet, not god's son, and that Muhammed (I'm sure I misspelled it) is the final prophet, who learned the true god's word through the angel Gabriel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Allah is not God, and he does not exist. God says time and time again that Jesus is the Son.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Allah" means God. It is not a name any more than "God" is; in Islam, calling God anything except for "God" ("no god but the God") is disallowed to such an extent, that many Muslims that migrate to the U.S. of A. refuse to refer to him as God, which caused a lot of confusion (and negativity) at the matter.

Christians believe they have the final word of God to follow (despite the split of the Churches). Islam followers believe they do. It's a split of opinion, so to speak.

[a-folov]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously guys, don't state the Bible, Torah and Quaran are all talking about the same God. God only inspired the Bible, and Jesus confirms this many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quaran came about after the time of Jesus...

[a-folov]

[ QUOTE ]


Read up on the holy Trinity here:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=492006&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

God will not inspire writings that do not glorify him nor his Son. Therefore the Quaran cannot be true. Read these too:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=503168&Forum=bodybuilder&Words=new%20testament%20&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=502902&Search=true#Post503168

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=656563&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=360658&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not defending either site, simply stating the way Islam followers see the issue, as most people here are highly misinformed on the religion.

[Pesca]

Alright, I usually stay out of these debates/topics and what not, but I just thought of a hypothetical situation I'm having trouble figuring out.


Let's say for instance you're alive around 400 A.D. You live in a small secluded polynesian island with very little to no influence from the outside world. You are surrounded by ONLY your culture and worship the religion you were taught. You have never heard of Jesus Christ and His teachings and have no clue about how He is the Son of God and the teachings of the Bible. You spend your whole life blind to Christianity and you have never had the chance to learn what it is about or what went on. You have only been exposed to your culture that exists on this island. Under the eyes of God, would you be sent to Hell?


I'm not trying to prove anything/anyone wrong, I'm just honestly curious and I'd like to hear some good reasonings.

[PurposeDriven26]

I'm reading a book right now that that says that over 1,000 chinese people are turning to Christianity every minute. I'm not sure how accurate that is because I didn't look in the back of the book for the referance when I read it but I do know that there are many more christians in China then we know about. The only reason you don't hear more about it is because it's illegal over there. (not technically illegal but if they find out you're a christian, it's worse then breaking a law over here)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[a-folov]

Yu, let me rephrase that: Islam followers think they are building on the Jewish and Christian religions. I am not saying that it is true or false, just how they see it. To them, their God and the Christian God is one and the same.

[JCKey618]

It just seems unfair to me that someone may spend their whole lives feeling that they are doing right and are truly good people but are ****ed to Hell because they chose the wrong choice /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[CheezitMan22]

[ QUOTE ]
Not at all. Allah, and the Torah, teach completely different principles than the Bible, and even assert that Jesus is not the Son of God, and we are saved by works. This is completely counter to the Bible and God's Word. God is not the author of confusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand...it only seems confusing to you, not to me or any other people. Are you saying that i don't beleive in G-d, or that if i do, it's not really G-d?

[ QUOTE ]
Not at all. God did not inspire the Torah or other extra-biblical texts. Allah is not the God of the Bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the old testament part of the bible?

[ QUOTE ]
The Torah and Quaran are fairly similar to one another, but are completely dissimilar to the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

^^ Kinda confused.

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not. Jesus is the only way to salvation. If you worship Allah, the greek gods, Buhddah or any other god, you are not accepting Jesus or the words of his Father. Therefore you will not be saved. It is very simple.


[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include the "jewish" one too? So, although i follow G-d, i am still going to hell, because the only "real" G-d is jesus's father?

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you aren't going to heaven. This includes athiests, muslims, hindu's, Jews and anyone else who does not believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You joking? /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Anyway...i hope somone can shed some light on this subject of other religions, cause i'm confused.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
but I have never really heard of other religions preaching and trying to convert people such as those of the Christian belief do.


[/ QUOTE ]

Take a biology class. The teacher will most likely try and win as many converts to the religion of evolutionism as possible. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[CheezitMan22]

But then if:

[ QUOTE ]
God did not inspire the Torah or other extra-biblical texts. Allah is not the God of the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

then how is the bible the word of G-d? The torah isnt, but the new testement+the old testement=bible and thus the word of G-d?

Doesn't make sense, that just because of the addition of the new testement, its the word of G-d.

And another thing is that, since there are all these people that DONT beleive, and they aren't going to heaven, don't you constantly feel bad? I mean, there're all these people that are going to be ****ed or whatever, so wouldn't you go nuts constantly? Do you dislike people of other religions or feel bad for them or anything?

I find this interesting because almost all of my friends are christian, but rarely talk or know what they are talking about, so i continualy get told different things. Thanks for giving me concrete answers, because they wont.

Another thing, if somone of the christian religion says that a jew or people of another religion will still go to heaven and etc etc, are THEY going to hell? /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks man

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't believe me? Read a pamphlet from the American Humanists Society, they openly admit this and it is a central tenant of their Humanist Manifesto.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. This is very true.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that we all worship the same God. For examples, the Muslims (I'm leaving out the extremists who believe that God wants them to kill innocents) would be praying to the same God that we Christians are, just under a different name.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been answered. Read this thread, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=770547&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1

Here is a quote:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This goes back to the notion that everyone’s religion is “right” and that no one can be wrong. But this is not true. Truth is not inclusive, it is exclusive.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Great point Yu, I was just discussing this with a Christian the other day.

Ro 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The truth is not relative.

Romans 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

What someone believes, or doesn't believe, will not change the truth, or God's work. That's irrelevant. Whether someone believes the earth is flat or not will not change the fact that it is round.

Here is a great except on this from the book, ‘evidence that demands a verdict’ by Mr. Josh Mcdowell:

The Christian faith is faith in Christ. Its value or worth is not in the one believing, but in the One believed—not in the one trusting, but in the One trusted.

Immediately following that debate, a Moslem fellow approached me and, during a :
most edifying conversation, said very sincerely, "I know many Moslems who have
more faith in Mohammed than some Christians have in Christ." I said, "That may well be true, but the Christian is 'saved; You see,it doesn't matter how much faith you have, but rather who is the object of your faith; that is important from the Christian perspective of faith."

I often hear students say, "Some Buddhists are more dedicated and have more
faith in Buddha [this showing a misunderstanding of Buddhism] than Christians have in Christ." I can only reply, "Maybe so, but the Christian is saved."

Paul said, "I know whom I have believed. This explains why the Christian gospel centers on the person of Jesus Christ.

John Warwick Montgomery writes: "If our 'Christ of faith' deviates at all from the biblical 'Jesus of history; then to the extent of that deviation, we also lose the genuine Christ of faith. As one of the greatest Christian historians of our time, Herbert Butter field, has put it: 'It would be a dangerous error to imagine that the characteristics of an historical religion would be maintained if the Christ of the theologians were divorced from the Jesus of history;" (Montgomery, SP, 145)

In other words, one must avoid the attiitude, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my is mind is made up!" For the Christian, the historical facts reported in the Scriptures are essential. That is why the apostle Paul said,"If Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.... and if
n Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins'."
1 Cor. 15:14,17).

And one more:

5B. Misconception #5: "Loving Christians Should Accept Other Religious Views",

"You Christians seem to think that your way is the only way and that all other views are] wrong. How intolerant can you be? Why can't you accept other people and what they believe as also true?"


These criticisms reflect the views of a new a definition of the word "tolerance." Webster's New World Dictionary of English (third edition) defines "tolerate" as "to recognize and respect [other's beliefs, practices, and soc forth] without sharing them," and "to bearn or put up with [someone or something notp especially liked]." The apostle Paul expressed this concept when he said, "[Love] endures all things" (1 Cor. 13:7).

But today a new definition of tolerance is systematically being foisted upon the minds of all people. As an example, Thomas A. Helmbock, executive vice-president of Lambda Chi Alpha fraternity, states, "The definition of new ... tolerance is that every individual's beliefs, lifestyle, and perception of truth claims are equal.... Your beliefs and my beliefs are equal, and all truth is relative."
Helmbock, IT, 2)

This misconception assumes that truth is inclusive, that it gathers under its wings claims that oppose each other. The fact, 1 however, is that all truth is exclusive_at least to some degree— for it must exclude as 1 false that which is not true.

For instance, it is true that washington r D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America. This means that no other city in the United States is that country's capital. In fact, no other city on planet Earth or anywhere in the universe can lay legitimate claim to being the capital city of the United
States. One city and one only fits the bill, and that's washington D.C.

Simply because just one city is the United States capital does not mean that the people who affirm this truth are therefore intolerant. They may like scores of other cities and even live in different cities themselves. They may even live in different countries and pre- fer their country to America. Accepting the exclusive truth claim about washington D.C. does not make a person tolerant or intolerant it simply makes him or her correctabout what the capital city of the United States is.


The same is true about Christianity. If the claims of the Christian faith are true—and many people accept them as true—these people are no more intolerant for their belief than those people who accept washington

D.C. as the United States capital. They are either correct or mistaken about how God has revealed Himself in the world. If they are right, then there really is no other way to God but through Christ. If they are wrong, then Christianity is false. The question of tolerance isn't the issue. The question of truth is.

The misconception of intolerance assumes that a person should always keep his
options open, even when the evidence narrows the options to one. Why should we do this? It seems clearly unreasonable, as apologists Norman Geisler and Ron Brooks state:

Surely, it is good to admit the possibility that one might be wrong and never good to maintain a position no matter what the evidence is against it. Also, one should never make a firm decision without examining all the evidence without prejudice. . . . [But] are we still to remain open-minded when all reason says
that there can be only one conclusion? That is the same as the error of the closed mind. ... What if the absolute view is true? Isn't openness taken to be absolute? In the long run, openness cannot really be true unless it is open to some real absolutes that cannot be denied. Open-mindedness should not be
confused with empty-mindedness. One should never remain open to a second alternative when only one can be true. (Geisler, WSA, 259)

It is the person who disbelieves in the face of strong evidence supporting Christianity who is really intolerant and closed-minded.

[ QUOTE ]
For examples, the Muslims (I'm leaving out the extremists who believe that God wants them to kill innocents) would be praying to the same God that we Christians are, just under a different name


[/ QUOTE ]

Read this article, http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i2/koran.asp

This is a good read on all religions being right:

All religions can’t be right
by Tas Walker, AiG–Australia

17 March 2003

We were heartened to hear that the new Dean of Sydney’s Anglican Cathedral, Phillip Jensen, took a brave stand for the claims of Christ recently.

Speaking in his inaugural sermon, Phillip Jensen attacked the excessive ‘relativism’ in the way the media treats Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and Christianity. In his sermon, he said that these religions can’t all be right.

It looks as if such claims about ‘truth’ are not what the media expect these days. We applaud Jensen’s stand. It seems like the new Dean is not playing the game the way the secular liberals expect. His sermon has been hot news.

Phillip Jensen doesn’t dispute that there are many wonderful Hindus, Muslims, Jews and atheists in Sydney. But his message was simple—they can’t all be right.

Jensen explained: ‘Jesus Christ either lived or he didn’t live. The communists in the 1940s said that Jesus didn’t live.’ The Bible says that Jesus Christ did live. Both can’t be right.

He went on to say that Jesus Christ either died or he didn’t die. ‘The Koran—in 4:157—said that Jesus did not die, and that the Jews and Christians were deceived, or confused in saying that he did.’ But the Bible says he did die. Both can’t be right.

It was exciting to see such a prominent cleric taking the same stand as AiG—that the Christian faith makes truth claims and that these claims are tied to real events in history as recorded in the Bible. Take away the history and you destroy the truth claim.

That is why AiG upholds the authority of the Bible from the very first verse. Secular humanism, the real religion of the West, says the world evolved over millions of years. The Bible says the world was created in six Earth-rotation days. Both can’t be right. Jesus Christ said that humans were present from the beginning of creation (Mark 10:6) whereas long-age belief has them appearing towards the end of creation. Again, both can’t be right.

We were excited to see Phillip Jensen raise the truth claims of Christ to national prominence, albeit briefly. You would think that truth would be an issue worth debating. Did the media pick up the issue and promote discussion on Jensen’s claim—that all religions can’t be right? Yes, they promoted discussion. But no, not on the issue.

Discussion focused on how Jensen’s statements were provocative, how they would be interpreted by other religions, how other religions would be offended, how he did not have a right to make such a statement in a pluralistic society, how he shouldn’t be wielding a big stick, how it will impact on the Muslim community, how he can’t claim to be tolerant of other religions, etc. But the discussion avoided the truth claims of Jesus Christ.

Deep down, secular liberals would agree with Jensen that all religions can’t be right. They would go one further—none is right. But it’s strategic for them not to say this about the non-Christian religions. Perhaps the secular liberal is petrified of the only other logical possibility: that one religion is right. That is too terrifying a truth to face.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say for instance you're alive around 400 A.D. You live in a small secluded polynesian island with very little to no influence from the outside world. You are surrounded by ONLY your culture and worship the religion you were taught. You have never heard of Jesus Christ and His teachings and have no clue about how He is the Son of God and the teachings of the Bible. You spend your whole life blind to Christianity and you have never had the chance to learn what it is about or what went on. You have only been exposed to your culture that exists on this island. Under the eyes of God, would you be sent to Hell?



[/ QUOTE ]

Read this thread, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=740166&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, if somone of the christian religion says that a jew or people of another religion will still go to heaven and etc etc, are THEY going to hell?


[/ QUOTE ]

Its plain and simple. If you are going to heaven, it is through the blood of Jesus. That is the only way.

If someone claims to be a Christian and says that someone can go to heaven without the blood of Jesus then they need to get studied up and realize what sin is, and the Seriousness of the price that was paid for it.

I would also state that those who claim to only believe in the Old Testiment should also accept Christ. Because he is prophesied from cover to cover. Including his death, burial, resurection, and the necessity of his sacrafice for
our sins. Therefore if you do believe in the Old Testament I would suggest studying it further. In its pages you will clearly see the need for Christ's sacrafice to atone for your sin

[CheezitMan22]

Hm...

Why did he die for sins? What if he had not? No one ever made this clear to me. Thanks

[JCKey618]

Ah, I see this thread is going in a different direction, but I guess that's OK.....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Heen! Glad to see you're interested in God.

[ QUOTE ]
And another thing is that, since there are all these people that DONT beleive, and they aren't going to heaven, don't you constantly feel bad? I mean, there're all these people that are going to be ****ed or whatever, so wouldn't you go nuts constantly? Do you dislike people of other religions or feel bad for them or anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't dislike anybody. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I do feel sorry for them, as they feel they need to do some sort of work to earn God's favor. If only they would stop trying to carry the burden of doing good works to get into heaven. The bible is clear, and if you read your Torah you will quickly see, no one can keep the Law. So even your bible says man has no hope in being holy in the eyes of God.

I do feel a desire to tell others what they are missing out on. Christianity is so easy, God did all the work.

All you have to do is believe He paid the price and humble your pride. The main drawback is people think "there is no way I can keep all those rules, so I don't want to even try to be a Christian". FIrst Christianity isn't about rules. Its about admitting you've broken the rules.

But the good news is God doesn't get us saved, then leave us alone. He gives us the Holy Spirit, which as your bible declares, under the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit will write the law on your heart. And instead of "Thou shalt not!" it will turn into "I don't want to!".

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing, if somone of the christian religion says that a jew or people of another religion will still go to heaven and etc etc, are THEY going to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only God can judge someone's eternity. So their opinion means little, aside from the warnings they can give you from the word of God. For example I can tell you based on the bible, if you reject Christ you will be lost.

Have you ever lied?

Then you're a liar.

Have you ever stolen?

Then you're a thief.

Jesus said if you even look at a girl in sexual lust you've committed adultery.

The bible says if you've ever hated someone you've committed murder in your heart.

Have you ever said God's name in vain?

I think we can all admit we've been guilty of the above sins.

By our own admission, we're lying, thieving, blasphemous, murdering, adulters at heart.

Based on that, when you stand before God and He judges you on His perfectly Holy law, do you think you would be innocent or guilty?

If God judges you on the 10 commandments, would you go to heaven or hell?

If we're honest with ourselves, we'll realize, we've all broken every commandment.

If you study your bible, you will notice the greatest commandment is, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind". We've all broken this law. Only Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly.

Heen, you will notice that when you ancestors sacrificed animals for attonment, they brought them for inspection before the High Priest.

You will also notice the High Priest, never inspected the person only the sacrifice.

So it is when we accept Jesus. God inspects Jesus, not us.

God said Jesus was a worthy sacrifice. When we ask Christ into our heart, God sees Christ in us, and accepts us as worthy of His Kingdom!

All you have to do is accept Him! Find me one religion, that allows entrance into heaven on Grace alone. You will find that all religions boil down to good deeds. That is why Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship!

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Hm...

Why did he die for sins? What if he had not? No one ever made this clear to me. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll quote the Old Testament because you believe in it. The Bold Part sums it up

<font color="red"> Isaiah 53: 1 - 12 - Study This Chapter

1 Who hath believed our report F242? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded F243 for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid F244 on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison F245 and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; F246 because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

</font>

That is why, and that is from the Old Testament.

[JCKey618]

I know, that's why I said it was OK. I was about to add "you have already answered my questions" but I didn't.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
but the new testement+the old testement=bible and thus the word of G-d?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Old testament by itself is the inherit word of God.

[ QUOTE ]
And another thing is that, since there are all these people that DONT beleive, and they aren't going to heaven, don't you constantly feel bad? I mean, there're all these people that are going to be ****ed or whatever, so wouldn't you go nuts constantly? Do you dislike people of other religions or feel bad for them or anything?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is very sad indeed. But that is why we do our best to preach Christ. We understand the seriousness of this decision each human must make. Here is a quote from an older post:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly. Knowing the truth gives us a burden to share it with people we care about. The intent is not to disrespect what you believe; it is a desire that others will know the truth as well so that they are saved from an eternity in hell, apart from God. Just reading the descriptions of hell in the Bible always renews my sense of urgency to share this with people I love who do not know God.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, very true. I love these verses from Paul and Moses. They say they would give their own salvation away to help the souls of others.


Romans 9:1-4
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Exodus 32:30-33
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. 31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love these verses from Paul and Moses. They say they would give their own salvation away to help the souls of others.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Great verses, Venom--very convicting to think about the implications of what Paul and Moses were saying.

[ QUOTE ]
I find this interesting because almost all of my friends are christian, but rarely talk or know what they are talking about, so i continualy get told different things. Thanks for giving me concrete answers, because they wont.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why you must learn how to discern the spirits. Read our bible studies we discuss this alot. The bible is the Ultimate authority. If what they are saying is unbiblical, they are wrong.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[JCKey618]

I admire you. You're so deep in the word (remind me of my cousin, my favorite cousin, I may add), you're smart as heck (reminds me of me /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif), and you're a freaking monster in the gym.

And you're an all around nice guy.

[renob]

ok this confuses the heck out of me, so can someone shed some light on this:

[ QUOTE ]

Not really, because I know God's judgement is perfect and just. Everyone gets what they truly deserve.


[/ QUOTE ]

so what about jewish people who do not agree that jesus was the son of God? and was only a prophet? but we lead a life trying to be free from sin ( i know that everybody sins and no one is perfect ) according to the Torah? (which im pretty sure is the same lifestyle as the bible ) are we still going to hell?

[CheezitMan22]

because the torah says were saved by works and for christians i guess if they beleive in jesus thats enough?

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
so what about jewish people who do not agree that jesus was the son of God? and was only a prophet?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to accept Christ as your savior to be saved-- simple as that. Read this thread, Part I- Accuracy of Scripture and Salvation (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=590954&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=How%20to%20use%20the%20Wor d%20of%20God%20Part%201&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Sear chpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=1week&amp;Main=590954&amp;Search=tru e#Post590954)

[renob]

[ QUOTE ]

You have to accept Christ as your savior to be saved-- simple as that


[/ QUOTE ]

so you mean that say Osama Bin Laden accepted christ, he would be accepted into heaven, but a guy like me who only believes Jesus was a prophet but tries to live my life free from sin, will go to hell?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
so what about jewish people who do not agree that jesus was the son of God? and was only a prophet? but we lead a life trying to be free from sin ( i know that everybody sins and no one is perfect ) according to the Torah? (which im pretty sure is the same lifestyle as the bible ) are we still going to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying is not doing.

God demands no less than pefect holiness.

Read my above response.

And again, ask yourself these questions,

Have you ever lied?

Then you're a liar.

Have you ever stolen?

You're a thief.

Have you ever looked with sexual lust?

Then you're an adulter.

Said God's name in vein?

You're a blasphemer.

Hated anyone?

You're a murderer at heart.

If we're all honest, we'll admit we're lying, thieving, murdering, blasphemous, adulters at heart. Desperately wicked.

Now if God were to judge you based on the 10 commandments, would you be innocent or guilty?

Remember God demands no less than perfect holiness.

So based on God's standards, we are all destined for hell. Doesn't matter who you are, what you think, what you believe, what creed, nationality, color, tan, fat, skinny, old, young, we've all broken God's law.

You can either stand before God and be judged by the standard of the Law. Or have God not inspect you, but inspect the sacrifice of Christ.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
because the torah says were saved by works and for christians i guess if they beleive in jesus thats enough?


[/ QUOTE ]

No it does not. Read that thread above.

Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.


The Old Testament is very clear; the just will be saved by faith, not through good deeds.

Romans 3:19-31
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ‘

Romans 4:9-16
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


And read this, Authentic Faith (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=656471&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=93&amp;fpart=1)

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
so you mean that say Osama Bin Laden accepted christ, he would be accepted into heaven, but a guy like me who only believes Jesus was a prophet but tries to live my life free from sin, will go to hell?


[/ QUOTE ]

Ga 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

God will not be mocked. Read this thread, Authentic Faith (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=656471&amp;page=0&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=93&amp;fpart=1)

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
because the torah says were saved by works and for christians i guess if they beleive in jesus thats enough?


[/ QUOTE ]

The Torah says no one is worthy of heaven. You can't please God on your own holiness. Its impossible.

[ QUOTE ]
so you mean that say Osama Bin Laden accepted christ, he would be accepted into heaven, but a guy like me who only believes Jesus was a prophet but tries to live my life free from sin, will go to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

A guy like you has broken all of God's laws. If you're not "thinking" of Christ as you're savior, then you will answer to God based on how well you've fulfilled the law.

Playing the blame game on Judgement day will not work.

Osama Bin Laden is not going to ask Christ into his life, so don't try to circumvent your own guilt by trying to find extremes. Blaming others does not remove your guilt bro.

[PurposeDriven26]

Good stuff! Someone pinch me, is Heen really in this thread? /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[mattbrye]

if we are all God's children, then why were some people not given the chance to learn about Him. How can they be an exception through their ignorance, when a young child is born and raised in another part of the world being taught their religion is the true religion, and never taught christianty. How come the 2nd person is not accpeted to heaven, even though it is the same ignorance as another person never given the chance to learn about God and the Bible. How can God deny the chance for some of his children to learn about him, religion, and how to worship altogether?? Im not tryin to argue, i just cant make sense of this

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
How can they be an exception through their ignorance, when a young child is born and raised in another part of the world being taught their religion is the true religion, and never taught christianty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pesca asked this question already. Here, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=740166&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1

[renob]

[ QUOTE ]

Playing the blame game on Judgement day will not work.

Osama Bin Laden is not going to ask Christ into his life, so don't try to circumvent your own guilt by trying to find extremes. Blaming others does not remove your guilt bro.


[/ QUOTE ]

im not trying to play the blame game at all...im just curious if Osama did accept Jesus into his life, he would be allowed to enter heaven? even though he murdered innocent people, and i wouldnt be allowed to because i do not accept Jesus as my savior, yet God himself as my savior.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Playing the blame game on Judgement day will not work.

Osama Bin Laden is not going to ask Christ into his life, so don't try to circumvent your own guilt by trying to find extremes. Blaming others does not remove your guilt bro.


[/ QUOTE ]

im not trying to play the blame game at all...im just curious if Osama did accept Jesus into his life, he would be allowed to enter heaven? even though he murdered innocent people, and i wouldnt be allowed to because i do not accept Jesus as my savior, yet God himself as my savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you are getting at. Read this thread,
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=671210&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;vc=1

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
im not trying to play the blame game at all...im just curious if Osama did accept Jesus into his life, he would be allowed to enter heaven? even though he murdered innocent people, and i wouldnt be allowed to because i do not accept Jesus as my savior, yet God himself as my savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

You defenietly are bro. You are telling God his law is not fair, and that somehow because you haven't broken the law to near the extent of Osama Bin Laden that somehow your breaking of the law is obsolete.

But to answer your question,

Christ paid the penalty for all sin.

But we also see, that the Holy Spirit is the one who changes people's hearts to accept Christ.

We see that in Noah's day, men were desperately violent and terrorism was running rampant,

<font color="red">11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
</font>

yet God's Holy Spirit did have limitations for mercy,

<font color="red"> 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man...yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
</font>

God said, mankind has 120 years, to change their ways.

After that My Spirit is done trying to change His heart.

Where is this line drawn? Only God knows that. But I feel certain, comparing Osama Bin Laden to the men of Noah's Day we can rest assured that His Spirit is not striving for Osama.

However, note, God still Loves Him. The bible says in the eyes of God all of our deeds as as filthy rags.

We are all worthy of eternal seperation from God. None of us is worthy to stand in His Presence. That includes Osama bin laden and that includes you and me.

So my point is, don't worry about trying to test God's Judgement or Spirit. Let God judge your heart.

[renob]

[ QUOTE ]

Let God judge your heart.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is why im confused!!!!!! you all keep saying this, but if i let God judge my heart your making it seem to me that he will toss me into hell, because i dont accept Jesus as my savior. i accept God himself as my savior. but if you say let God judge your heart, then wouldnt it not matter who i accept as my savior?

that is my question, im not trying to compare salvations, that was just a bad way to express my confusion...

[mattbrye]

i still dont udnerstand after reading that stuff how this situation is different...one kid raised in some tribe is never given the chance to learn of Jesus, therefore can be saved b/c of his ignorance. Another kid is raised somewhere in the world under a different religion, worships another god, yet has no way of finding out about Christianity, or Jesus. Yet the 2nd kid is committing a serious sin of worshipping another god, therefore will be ****ed. But in both cases ignorance was the case, if the 1st kid is saved but the 2nd one not allowed to be saved, then i will never be able to truely understand how God works...

[CheezitMan22]

Well...it seems to me like you can only go to heaven if ur perfect, and no one can be perfect so no one can go to heaven. But apparantly, if you accept jesus, then, because he atoned for yyour sins, you can go to heaven? BAM!

/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[JCKey618]

[ QUOTE ]
i still dont udnerstand after reading that stuff how this situation is different...one kid raised in some tribe is never given the chance to learn of Jesus, therefore can be saved b/c of his ignorance. Another kid is raised somewhere in the world under a different religion, worships another god, yet has no way of finding out about Christianity, or Jesus. Yet the 2nd kid is committing a serious sin of worshipping another god, therefore will be ****ed. But in both cases ignorance was the case, if the 1st kid is saved but the 2nd one not allowed to be saved, then i will never be able to truely understand how God works...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think both situations are the same. I believe that they mean when a person does hear about Christianity but refuses it. In you example both parties didn't heard about Christ at all.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[mattbrye]

So a person living in ignorance to Christianity, which of course is rare, but lets just say its the case, a person is ignorant to it and lives the most sinful life one could imagine, he would still be saved due to ignorance. Then lets say a person who is a Christian, but deep in the back of their minds have questions or doubts about some things in the Bible, then they have not fully accepted Christianity and will be ****ed for living with that sin. I feel the path to heaven is like going through court, u commit a sin ( a crime) and u go in front of God (the judge) and let him decide ur fate.

[mattbrye]

by the way...i hope im not angering or annoying you guys with what im saying, im just trying to grasp all this and i know i can count on the people here...especially the mods, to give me a great thorough explanation, which is backed up with facts.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
this is why im confused!!!!!! you all keep saying this, but if i let God judge my heart your making it seem to me that he will toss me into hell, because i dont accept Jesus as my savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

God doesn't "toss" anyone into hell. People chose to go there if they reject His Son.

<font color="green">7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts </font>

[ QUOTE ]
i accept God himself as my savior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome!

[ QUOTE ]
but if you say let God judge your heart, then wouldnt it not matter who i accept as my savior?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am telling you to let God judge your heart as to whether you are a sinner or not. If you've already accepted Christ, then you've already let God convict you. Otherwise you would not be aware you had sinned.

Now when God sees you, He sees Jesus in you, and has forgiven you of your sin. Your heart is clean before God!

<font color="blue"> 18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD .
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
</font>

I said that in an effort to get you to see how you would stand before God if you did not accept Christ, as opposed to trying to compare your sins to anothers sins. If one does not accept Christ, God will only judge that person's sin next to one person, Christ. God won't compare a sinner to Osama Bin Laden on Judgement day. He'll compare the sinner to His Son.

[ QUOTE ]
that is my question, im not trying to compare salvations, that was just a bad way to express my confusion...

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I hope that clears it up!

[ QUOTE ]
Well...it seems to me like you can only go to heaven if ur perfect, and no one can be perfect so no one can go to heaven. But apparantly, if you accept jesus, then, because he atoned for yyour sins, you can go to heaven? BAM!


[/ QUOTE ]

You got it Heen!

Check this out...

Paul the apostle was actually a Pharisee. A Jewish expert in the Law. After he accepted Christ, he did a lot of comparing to the Law of Moses to the salvation of Christ.

In the book of Romans he said,

<font color="green"> Romans 5
7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
</font>

How many people would die for you? Probably a select few. Your parents and relatives would, and maybe your closest friends. And this is done because they are related to you and you are worthy in their eyes.

Now think about what Christ did. " 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man" Christ died for the unrighteous and those who would spit upon Him, mock Him, betray Him, reject Him. Christ died for us even though we our righteousness is as filthy rags, and we do not deserve it.

The amplified bible puts it this way,

<font color="green">Romans 5
7Now it is an extraordinary thing for one to give his life even for an upright man, though perhaps for a noble and lovable and generous benefactor someone might even dare to die.
8But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.
9Therefore, since we are now justified ([1] acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ's blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God. </font>

How much does God love His Creation?

We epitimize Osama Bin Laden as the pinnacle of evil, yet Christ died for Osama Bin Laden.

Jesus, who was perfectly Holy, God Himself in the flesh, became sin for us.

<font color="brown"> 2 Corinthians 5
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. </font>

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel the path to heaven is like going through court, u commit a sin ( a crime) and u go in front of God (the judge) and let him decide ur fate.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you would be breaking the second commandment my friend.

Creating a rendition of God in your mind that suits you.

Fortunately God does not conform to our mindset.

<font color="red"> Hebrews 13
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
</font>

[ QUOTE ]
. I feel the path to heaven is like going through court, u commit a sin ( a crime) and u go in front of God (the judge) and let him decide ur fate.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are essentially saying the same thing Muslims believe and every other religion in the world..works get you into heaven.

WHen you die, first you better hope Allah is having a good day. Second you're good deeds and bad deeds will be put on a scale and if the good outweighs the bad, you'll get into heaven. If not, hell.

Let me tell you, if you only sin once in your life, that's enough to seperate you from God.

If you want to understand God, you have to forget that you can do anything to earn His grace. You have to believe that His Grace is a free gift only He can grant. Not anything you can earn!

His standard for absolute Holiness is eternal. It doesn't change for you, me, or anyone else.

<font color="red"> Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
</font>

In Revelation, we see who is worthy before God,

<font color="blue"> 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy?...

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed!
</font>

Is there a path to heaven? Yes, the straight and narrow path, the path of Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
let him decide ur fate.

[/ QUOTE ]

On an individual level, you decide your own fate bro.

[Sun Tzu]

This is a very interesting subject. I'm going to reply what went on earlier in the subject, and not so much the direction it is currently going. I hope no one minds too much.

First off, I challenge anyone who does not believe that Mohammad came from God to read the Quran from front to back with a somewhat open mind. There is a true and total difference between the current Dogma of the Muslim faith, and what the Quran actually says. I not explicitly defending the Quran, as some sections I'm certain have been altered, but more trying to bring about a certain sense of understanding. I haven't read all of the Quran, but I've come across references where Mohammad refers to Jesus as the son of God. (at least I think so, anyways.) What many christians (and even muslims) do not realize is that at the time of Mohammad there was still a great amount of confusion about the relationship between Jesus and God. So, a lot of the clarification Mohammad gave can be interpreted in many different ways. Now, who's to say there could not be another prophet from God before the return of Jesus?

<font color="red">
Jesus said:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth"
John 16:12-13
</font>

This is a clear message that more Messengers from God will come, and to His own return.
And, I will also refute the total misrepresentation of what 4:157 says... I believe that was in a quote of Venom's post I think.

This following quote comes from Quran 4:152-159 I will also note that the Quran is seperated into verses rather than by lines.
<font color="red">
The People of the book will ask thee to bring down
upon them a Book from heaven; and they asked
Moses for greater than that, for they said,
'Show us God openly.' And the thunderbolt
took them for their evildoing. Then they took
to themselves the Calf, after the clear signs
had come to them; yet, We pardoned them
that, and We bestowed upon Moses
a clear authority.

And We raised above them the Mount, taking
compact with them; and We said to them,'Enter in
at the gate, prostrating'; and We said to them,
'Transgress not the Sabbath'; and We took from them
a solemn compact.

So, for breaking the compact, and disbelieving
in the sings of God, and slaying the Prophets
without right, and for their saying,'Our Hearts
are uncircumsised'-nay, but God sealed them
for their unbelief, so they believe not,
except a few-

and for their unbelief, and their uttering
against Mary a mighty calumny,
and for their saying,'We slew the Messiah,
Jesus son of Mary, the Messanger of God'-
yet they did not slaw, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them.
Thoise who are variance concerning him surely
are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge
of him, except the following of surmise;
and they slew him not of a certainty-
no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is
All-mighty, All-wise. </font>

(bold is mine)
Now, here is another passage, which I believe Mohammad refers to Jesus as the son of God.
<font color="blue">
4:168-9

O men, the Messenger has now come to youm
with the truth from your Lord; so believe;
better is it for you. And if you disbelieve,
to God belongs all that is in the heavens
and in the arth; and God is
All-knowing, All-wise.

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds
in your religion, and say not as to God
but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary
was only the Messenger of God, and His Word
that He comitted to Mary, and a Spirit from
Him. So believe in God and His Messengers,
and say not,'Three.' Refrain; better is it
for you. God is only one God. Glory be
to Him--that He should have a son!
</font>

Again, the bolds are mine, but I'm fairly certain Mohammad is saying here that Jesus is the Son of God.

What most people don't realize is that what is different in the Quran is mostly how to handle domestic affairs. Every revelation from God adds to what the previous revelation has to say, and changes things to make sense for the present day and age. Mohammad changed the laws of the bible to conform to the time, plain and simple. No one can tell me otherwise that Jesus changed how things were done with just the old testament. He did change the old laws, to new laws that made sense for that day and age. The ones that stil made sense he didn't change. Mohammad did no differently.

However, what was not changed, and what always stays the same with any revelation from God is the definitions of virtues and the definition of vices. Maybe things are clarified and more is named, but the core virtues of any faith are all the same. Any differences in this area can only be ascribed to man-made tampering.

The route to God, which is by following one of God's Messangers/Prophets, is through being a virtuous person and performing good deeds. Hence, becoming closer to God. So, to say that the only way to God is through Jesus, is in a certain inprepretation, correct. But one has to realize, is what Jesus represents. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was also God's representative on earth for the time being. So was Mohammad. So to say that the only way through God is Mohammad, again is true in the same way as before.

Here's some food for thought on the subject:

"To them that are endowed with understanding, it is clear and manifest that when the fire of the love of Jesus consumed the veils of Jewish limitations, and His authority was made apparent and partially enforced, He the Revealer of the unseen Beauty, addressing one day His disciples, referred unto His passing, and, kindling in their hearts the fire of bereavement, said unto them: "I go away and come again unto you." And in another place He said: "I go and another will come Who will tell you all that I have not told you, and will fulfil all that I have said." Both these sayings have but one meaning, were you to ponder upon the Manifestations of the Unity of God with divine insight.

Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur'án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am Jesus." He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: "I go away and come again unto you." Consider the sun. Were it to say now, "I am the sun of yesterday," it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why *22* that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 19)



Now, I have a book that talks all about the forfillment of Biblical Prophecy. It's entitled "Understanding Biblical Prophecy" by Michael Sours. The last chapter (which is really too long for me to type up) talks explicitely about the Book of Daniel. Some quotes from the Book of Daniel are:

Daniel 9:24-27
"Seventy weeks are decreed
for your people and your holy city
for putting an end ot transgression
for placing the seal on sin,
for expiating crime, for introducing everlasting
uprightness
for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,
for anointing the holy of holies.

Daniel 12:8-9

I listened but I did not understand. I then said,"My
Lord, what is to be the outcome?" 'Go, Daniel' he said.
'These words are to remain secret and sealed up until the time of the End.'

I'd attempt to write/summarize what the book had to say, but I'd rather not say anything out of my league due to me not understanding something. Anyways, I hope this has been interesting reading.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read all of the Quran, but I've come across references where Mohammad refers to Jesus as the son of God. (at least I think so, anyways.)

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they do not recognize the diety of Christ. Absolutely not. And they do not believe in Christ as the only path to heaven as Christ Himself declared He is.

<font color="red">

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
</font>

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I challenge anyone who does not believe that Mohammad came from God to read the Quran from front to back with a somewhat open mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have, and I rendered the same conclusion Paul told us to.

<font color="blue"> 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
</font>

Read verse 8.

<font color="green">But though we, or an angel from heaven </font>

Where did Muhammaed get his "revelations" from? an angel.

<font color="green"> any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
</font>

Does he preach the deity, death, blood and resurrection, of Christ as the only way to heaven as Paul and the apostles preach?

No. Seems easy to disern this doctrine,

<font color="red"> As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
</font>

Paul repeated himself twice in the same chapter.

Islam is not Christianity, nor do they preach Christ and Him crucified.

[ QUOTE ]
The route to God, which is by following one of God's Messangers/Prophets, is through being a virtuous person and performing good deeds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not the message of Christ.

<font color="green">

Matthew 9:12
But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
</font>

<font color="red"> Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. </font>

Islam is a religion of works. Christianity is a belief in grace, and works are proof our the Spirit that lives in us.

[psaturn]

Here is my two cents:

And I like it to do Ernest Hemingway's method. Keep it simple and stupid. (He actually failed his English class at Oak Park High School !!).

God created the Heavens and the Earth.
God created MAN and WOMAN.
He established a very simple law. Man and Woman is supposed to follow it. The law says HE COULD EAT ANYTHING FROM THE GARDEN INCLUDING THE TREE OF LIFE BUT DO NOT EAT FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

But Man FAILS. Man eats the fruit. Man is cursed. and from all that all his seeds are cursed. But Man did get an extra bonus from eating that fruit !!! He has the knowledge of the good and evil !!! But in the process, he lost something and he felt NAKED !!!

BEFORE THAT EVERYTHING WAS GOOD !!

So from there on, we struggled with that knowledge of good and evil.
We strive to be a judge of what is right and wrong. We decide amongst ourselves whatever if it is fair or not.

Then we get the first murder and it is recorded in the Book of Genesis. Abel is killed because God accepted his sacrifice and not Cain's. What is the difference ??? Gee !!! Cain worked so hard to give God his sacrifice, he worked so hard on the land, he sweated and sweated to get the fruits, and cereals and all that !!! And Abel only watched his sheeps. They ate the grass and they grew and Abel only watched them !!! THIS IS SO NOT FAIR !!!
The difference ??? God already communicated that the sacrifice He accepts is the blood sacrifice from an innocent lamb. Abel gave what God wanted. Cain, he decided on his own that he worked very hard for what he has and God should accept that. Unfortunately for Cain, what Cain was giving to God was fruits from the cursed ground. And GOD will not accept cursed gifts.
Cain, equipped with the knowledge of good and evil, felt he was right. So he killed Abel. That was the first physical human death that we know of. The first death that we know of that occurred on the Earth was when God had to take the LIFE of an animal to COVER the nakedness of Adam and Eve.

From there on, we just have a history of struggles in the humankind !!! Everyone feels they are right. Because they have the knowledge of good and evil.

Like Adam and Eve's nakedness was covered with skin of a lamb, so GOD had to institute a way that the human race could be covered under.

He sent Jesus to Earth as a totally clean human being, pure, without any sign of the curse of Adam, the first Man. As the sperm he was born from was a divine sperm, impregnated in Virgin Mary's womb. He lived His life fully according to the Torah, the Law that God gave to Moses, not according to the laws of men.

When the time came, Jesus willingly gave up His life. His pure life. As a covering for our shame. Our brokenness. Our mess. Our lies, our theft, our murders...

Adam could have declined God's covering to cover his shame. He could have kept worn that fig leaves that he made with his wife.

So can we decline God's covering for us. He sent Jesus to die. So His covering could be above us. ONLY IF WE ACCEPTED IT !!!

When we accept God's covering, then we can live abundantly. We do not need to be ashamed that we did something wrong.

Any other religions, that is like making your own fig leaves. It is transitory. It is like Cain's sacrifice. God did not ask you to pray to Him five times a day. God wants you to talk to Him all the time !!! He wants that relationship like He had with Adam in the beginning, when they walked together in the cool of the evening and fellowshipped.

The question is not whether you will go to heaven or hell in the future, but the question should be: where are you NOW ??? Are you walking with GOD without any shame or anything to hide ?

[Adam Knowlden]

Incredible breakdown PSaturn! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Keep it simple and stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Too true. God made it simple. The deciever likes to complicate the simplicity of Christ.

<font color="green">2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. </font>

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, who's to say there could not be another prophet from God before the return of Jesus?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, there have been prophets since. For example, Peter prophecied:

2Pe 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

The question is, are they false or true prophets?

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

The standard to test this is God's word.

[ QUOTE ]
And, I will also refute the total misrepresentation of what 4:157 says... I believe that was in a quote of Venom's post I think.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what you are referring to here?

[ QUOTE ]
no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is
All-mighty, All-wise.

(bold is mine)
Now, here is another passage, which I believe Mohammad refers to Jesus as the son of God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, this supports what we are saying. Here is a quote:

The Death of Jesus

In the Bible Jesus clearly taught that he would die and be raised from the dead:

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. (Matthew 16:21)
Jesus also said that his death and resurrection was what the prophets before him had foretold:

He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:45-47)
Jesus also explained the meaning of his death:

Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave-- just as the Son of Man (Jesus) did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:26-28)
However, when the Qur'an teaches about the death of Jesus on the cross it says that he never really died!

"We (the Jews) slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God" - yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. ... and they slew him not of certainty - no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is All-mighty, All-wise.(Sura 4:156-157, Arberry)
Jesus taught that his death on the cross was to pay for our sins and that it was part of God's work that he came to perform. However in the Qur'an Jesus' death on the cross is no death at all. Thus the Qur'an does not confirm the Bible at this most important point.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, the bolds are mine, but I'm fairly certain Mohammad is saying here that Jesus is the Son of God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Son of God

In the Bible there is a lot of teaching about the "Son of God". This teaching is quite clear. The Qur'an also has much to say about the "Son of God", however it does not confirm or make clearer the Bible's teaching, instead it misunderstands and actually confuses what the Bible clearly taught.

What does the Bible say about the "Son of God"?

The phrase, "Son of God" is a title that is used in the Bible to denote someone's relationship to God. This relationship involves the person, or people, receiving promises from God that they will receive something from him. In this way they are an heir to God as they have been promised and inheritance from him. Now since a son is the heir to his father so too those who have received promises from God are called "sons" of God. In the book of Exodus we see that the whole nation of Israel is called God's "son".

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. ... Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'" (Exodus 4:21-23, NIV)

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (Hosea 11:1, NIV)

Later in Israel's history God appointed David as Israel's king. The title of "Son" that had been applied to Israel was now also applied to her king as he was the head of the nation and had received a special promise from God. Thus every king of Israel had the title of "Son" of God:

The LORD declares to you (David) that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. (2 Samuel 7:11-14, NIV)
The king of Israel also had another title, the title of Messiah. (The Greek translation of the word Messiah is Christ.) The word Messiah comes from the Hebrew word "to anoint". Every king of Israel was anointed to the position of king, and so every king was The Anointed or the Messiah. We see this happen when Saul was anointed king over Israel:

Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on Saul's head and kissed him, saying, "Has not the LORD anointed you leader over his inheritance? (1 Samuel 10:1, NIV)
What have we seen so far? We have seen that every king of Israel had the titles of Son of God and Messiah/Christ. Thus the Son of God was the Messiah/Christ and the Messiah/Christ was the Son of God. This connection between the two titles was clearly understood at the time of Jesus for we see the two titles used together:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" ... Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the living God." (Matthew 16:13-16, NIV)

Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.(Matthew 26:62-64, NIV)

Hopefully now you can understand what the Bible means when it talks about the Son of God. It is not talking about God having sex and producing a baby. The title Son of God does not even imply divinity in the person for, as we have seen, the nation of Israel and her king were call God's son. Jesus is the true fulfillment of the Son of God. He is the true son of David, the true Israel. He is the true son who received the inheritance from his Father God. This inheritance was the kingdom of God itself.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18, NIV)

Now does the Qur'an make clearer the Bible's teaching about the "Son of God"? The answer is no! In fact the Qur'an misunderstands and confuses this teaching from the Bible. Throughout the Qur'an it denies that Jesus is the Son of God yet mistakenly still calls him the Messiah.

The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was no more than God's apostle and his Word which He cast to Mary (Sura 4:171, Dawood).

The Jews say, Ezra is the "Son of God"; the Christians say, "The Messiah is the Son of God." That is the utterance of there mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted. (Sura 9:30, Arberry)

They say: "God has begotten a son" God forbid! (Sura 10:68, Dawood)

The Qur'an shows no understanding of the meaning of the title "Son of God". In the Qur'an it means nothing more than to imply that God had sex, and as we have seen from the Bible this is not what the title means. In the Qur'an Jesus is given the title of Messiah and yet denied the title of the Son of God; the Bible clearly teaches that both of these titles go together.

Again we see that what was clearly taught in the Bible is confused by the Qur'an and has led to confusion and disagreements between Muslims and Christians. The Qur'an claims to make clearer the teaching of the Bible but this claim is false. It does not make clearer the Bible's teaching, in fact it only confuses it.

[ QUOTE ]
age. Mohammad changed the laws of the bible to conform to the time, plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Proverbs 30:1-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Read our bible studies!

[ QUOTE ]
No one can tell me otherwise that Jesus changed how things were done with just the old testament. He did change the old laws, to new laws that made sense for that day and age. The ones that stil made sense he didn't change. Mohammad did no differently.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is comparing apples to oranges. Read Hebrews.


[ QUOTE ]
However, what was not changed, and what always stays the same with any revelation from God is the definitions of virtues and the definition of vices. Maybe things are clarified and more is named, but the core virtues of any faith are all the same. Any differences in this area can only be ascribed to man-made tampering.


[/ QUOTE ]

Read this, Part I- Accuracy of Scripture and Salvation (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=590954&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=How%20to%20use%20the%20Wor d%20of%20God%20Part%201&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Sear chpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=1week&amp;Main=590954&amp;Search=tru e#Post590954)

The bible is perfect--period.

And yes, the bible is clear, if you do not believe Jesus came, died on the cross for your sins, lived a perfect life, is the son of God, rose again from the dead on the third day, and do not repent of your sins, and ask for his forgiveness, you will not be saved.

[ QUOTE ]
The route to God, which is by following one of God's Messangers/Prophets, is through being a virtuous person and performing good deeds. Hence, becoming closer to God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
So, to say that the only way to God is through Jesus, is in a certain inprepretation, correct. But one has to realize, is what Jesus represents. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was also God's representative on earth for the time being. So was Mohammad. So to say that the only way through God is Mohammad, again is true in the same way as before.


[/ QUOTE ]


Wrong:

Jesus=Ac 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Mohammad=False Prophet

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I have a book that talks all about the forfillment of Biblical Prophecy. It's entitled "Understanding Biblical Prophecy" by Michael Sours. The last chapter (which is really too long for me to type up) talks explicitely about the Book of Daniel. Some quotes from the Book of Daniel are:

Daniel 9:24-27
"Seventy weeks are decreed
for your people and your holy city
for putting an end ot transgression
for placing the seal on sin,
for expiating crime, for introducing everlasting
uprightness
for setting the seal on vision and on prophecy,
for anointing the holy of holies.

Daniel 12:8-9

I listened but I did not understand. I then said,"My
Lord, what is to be the outcome?" 'Go, Daniel' he said.
'These words are to remain secret and sealed up until the time of the End.'

I'd attempt to write/summarize what the book had to say, but I'd rather not say anything out of my league due to me not understanding something. Anyways, I hope this has been interesting reading.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read this thread for an answer, The Mystery of the Holy Trinity is unravled as the master of scriptural analysis, Venom, takes you step by step through this all encompassing topic! (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=492006&amp; page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1)

And read these articles, http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/test.htm

[ QUOTE ]
Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am Jesus."

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHA! Sound familiar?

Mt 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: "I go away and come again unto you." Consider the sun. Were it to say now, "I am the sun of yesterday," it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why 22 that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joh 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

What a Joke, he is talking about bringing us into heaven here. And if you are refering to that the verse Yu posted, he already tore that up.

I am glad you posted this, it's worst than I thought.

[Sun Tzu]

Good replies guys. I'm going to have to think on things further. I see that I really need to clarify what I've said a lot further. I don't have time tonight, but expect a big post from me on friday or saturday! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Cool bro. Take your time! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]

Mohammad changed the laws of the bible to conform to the time, plain and simple

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the idea, yes. However, this is very illogical both theoretically and practically.

Several things contradict history, scripture, and other parts of the Qur'an. See Surah 4, 157:

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

There is little doubt that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ actually occurred. There were hundreds of witnesses from whom we have several written accounts, some of which are outside those found in the New Testament. As to the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, there is virtually no difference regards the fact that Jesus died on the cross. This contradiction is inexplicable. Internal consistency is the mark of validity in examining any claim; the lack of it suggests something less than that made for the Qur'an. In one instance, as shown above, there is an assertion that Jesus Christ was not crucified; in the other, there is agreement with the New Testament regarding his death and resurrection, "from the mouth of Jesus." (See Surah 19:30-35.) The acceptance of the accounts of the Gospel writers regarding the unique nature of Mary's pregnancy-through the Holy Ghost-as well as some parts of the life of Jesus, including his resurrection, one wonders why Mohammed is seemingly ambiguous about the Jesus having died/been crucified.

If you examine Surah 4 further, you find several verses that touch the subject.

116. Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). 171. [---] so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah [---].

The Old and New Testaments were written long before the Qur'an. If you assume that the Bible is the word
of God, then the Bible must be true. However, if you assume that the Qur'an is the word of God, then the Bible cannot be true.

But if the Qur'an is the word of God, and thus true, why are there so many references to Moses, Noah, etc. who were written about already in the Old Testament? If the Qur'an is the true word of God, then the Bible is wrong by default. And if the Qur'an is true, and the Bible wrong, then it shouldn't give any credit to the Bible. Here you might argue that it only acknowledges the OT, like the Jews do. However, that is a very weak argument, since the Qur'an takes several parts from the New Testament for use as well. It was written before the Qur'an, and if Muhammad cites it as historical material, then the rest should also be considered as historical material (i.e. the resurrection).

Now, if the Bible is true, then the Qur'an is a work of fallible men. This goes au contraire as well – if the Qur'an is true, then the Bible is the work of fallible men. But here comes the crux - if the Bible is only fiction, how did these people who wrote the different books in it know all that is mentioned in the Qur'an (referring to Noah, the Flood, etc) before God had told Muhammad? And actually changing the accounts in scripture, to "fit" the rest of the Qur'an? This is very much alike the Mormons, who have "reinterpreted" the Bible through a prophet, Joseph Smith, to fit their religious beliefs.

Now Moses is the author of the first five books in the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Numerus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Since the Qur'an mentions Moses several times it is logical to draw the conclusion that Moses was who he said he was, a prophet of God. Since the earliest documents we have of him are his own writings, it means, if the Qur'an is true, that they are true as well (indeed, God would not refer to Moses through Muhammad if he was not a prophet). This also means that if they are true, the Bible must be true, since Moses is written about all through the Old and New Testaments. Jesus cites Moses several times in the New Testament with insane accuracy which, if the Bible is true, hints at Moses' authenticity as a prophet.

So now we have reached the conclusion that Moses is a common denominator for both the Qur'an and the Bible, cited by both Muhammad and Jesus. If the Qur'an is the word of God, Jesus is not the Son of God, but simply just a prophet (and stretched as far as the promised
Messiah). He was not crucified (according to some Islamic "experts" the body of Jesus was replaced before, or during, the crucifixion. This is by far a very farfetched and illogical belief that has no foundation or basis in historic material) and thus he was not resurrected. But, it does however say in the Qur'an that Jesus himself says that He will come back from the dead. Muhammad 'himself' confirms the authenticity of this statement. This is something that Jesus also says in the New Testament. Since the NT was written before the Qur'an, and they both say the same thing, it inclines towards the belief that the Bible is the word of God. Indeed, if the Bible was not the word of God, then the information in it would be false, and would not be used in the Qur'an. This now shows that the Qur'an was inspired by the Bible, and uses elements from it to give out a new message. For if it was the word of God, how could fallible men like Matthew, John, Mark and Luke know things that would not be "revealed" (or "changed")until centuries later to Muhammad?

If the gospel writers weren't of God, from where did they receive their information? From witnesses who saw and lived with Jesus. If the Qur'an is not of God, from where did Muhammad get his information? From the New Testament.

As is evident, believing that the Qur'an is the word of God brings several difficulties, contradictions and problems. It is indeed much more logical to assume that the Bible, supported by science, archaeology and history, is the infallible Word of God and that the Qur'an is a work of fallible men.

[President Wilson]

William,

that was outstanding!

[Pete914]

[ QUOTE ]
But today a new definition of tolerance is systematically being foisted upon the minds of all people. As an example, Thomas A. Helmbock, executive vice-president of Lambda Chi Alpha fraternity, states, "The definition of new ... tolerance is that every individual's beliefs, lifestyle, and perception of truth claims are equal.... Your beliefs and my beliefs are equal, and all truth is relative."
Helmbock, IT, 2)


[/ QUOTE ]

As a member of Lambda Chi Alpha, I feel that I need to respond to this statement. The fraternity is clearly and 100% based on Christianity. I cannot prove this statement, because all materials and examples I would need to do so cannot be shared with non members. My point is, despite what brother Helmbock may say the "official" stance of Lambda Chi Alpha is on other religions and tolerances, the fundamentals of the fraternity say otherwise. I have met many brothers from many chapters and most of them are complete Christians. I honestly hope that this statement made by brother Helmbock was an attempt at good PR, and that he does not really feel this way. If, however, he is speaking what he really thinks, it is clearly from a business perspective as he wants people of all religions to feel that they are welcome in the fraternity. Which can bode well for some, because being in the fraternity will definitely expose everyone to Christianity.

[vexxed82]

jckey618 I have thought about this too. I came to the conclusion that there is no one single correct religion. Every religion (for the most part) aims to guide you toward a life of ambitious purposes, a congenial disposition, a high sense of honor, and a deep sense of personal responsibility. The goal is to use these teachings to be a man of good character. I feel as long as you have a decent set of morals and strive to be a better person you will be fine. I know not everyone may agree with me here but I don’t really want to take on a religious belief that condemns others simply for their beliefs even though they may be very good souls.

[M I K E]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the Muslims and people that believe in another God? I've often thought that God would not punish people (by sending them to hell) because they were brough up to believe something different. So there must be a solution....

I believe that we all worship the same God. For examples, the Muslims (I'm leaving out the extremists who believe that God wants them to kill innocents) would be praying to the same God that we Christians are, just under a different name. How could it be any different? Why should someone be sent to hell or not be granted eternal life (when they have served their religion and their faith with as much devotion as we) because they were brought up to believe something different?

Think about it, if someone came up to you and told you that their religion (that deals with "another God") is the right one and the only way, would you just abandon Christianity? No, because you know what you believe in your heart. This is the same with other religions like Islam. A Muslim man that has been a Muslim all his life truly believes that his religion is the right one, so if you go up to him and preach Christianity, why should his reaction be any different from yours if the situation was reversed?

And what about the people that never heard of Christianity and the Bible? For example, Native Americans. They worshipped nature. I believe that this is the same as worshipping God because God is nature and he makes everything. If the Native Americans were true to their religion, lived right, and honored nature, shouldn't they also have eternal life?

So, I believe that everyone that believes in a higher power and lives right and feels a connection with this higher power is worshipping the same God as we are, just under a different name. What do you guys think?

Also, as my mom often wonders (she's a Christian, too) "Did God make all those Chinese people just to send them to hell?" because a lot of them are not Christians. Yes, they've probably heard of Christianity, but I'm willing to bet that most of them have not had someone to witness to them, to share the gospels and get them to really understand our religion. It's not their fault they do not know God, or of God.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is correct, all other options are wrong, no matter how passionate someone is about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of those statements that drove me away from Christianity. Really now, what right do we have to say that. Because it's in a book? Did God write the Bible? No, man did. Was it written by humans but spoken by God? Maybe, but we don't know that. I have nothing againsed the good of Christianity. It tells people to be good, and "treat people the way you wish to be treated." I love that line and use it all the time. But talking about everyone else being wrong? What if another person from another religon told you that you were wrong, and casually said "You'll go to hell when you die". How would you feel if you were told that. I bet not very good, no matter what. People get hurt when you tell them this, and it's not right. That is what upsets me. The "golden rule" of the Bible goes againsed itself.

Think about that for a minute.

[Pete914]

[ QUOTE ]
jckey618 I have thought about this too. I came to the conclusion that there is no one single correct religion. Every religion (for the most part) aims to guide you toward a life of ambitious purposes, a congenial disposition, a high sense of honor, and a deep sense of personal responsibility. The goal is to use these teachings to be a man of good character. I feel as long as you have a decent set of morals and strive to be a better person you will be fine. I know not everyone may agree with me here but I don’t really want to take on a religious belief that condemns others simply for their beliefs even though they may be very good souls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will tell you what Venom told me a while ago when I used to think as you did. You are saying that you know more about judging than God does, and that you are a better judge of character than Him. You had better humble yourself or prepare to face the consequences. You think that it is all about being a good and moral person, but without God's laws you are defining for yourself what good morals are. Therefore you are making yourself your own god, as is everyone that believes what they think is what is right and good. This is where your beliefs ultimately fail, as if everyone can define their own morals than there is no such thing as definite right or wrong, good or evil, everything will be subjective. You also have ignored 5 pages of posting that have already diproved everything you just stated.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those statements that drove me away from Christianity. Really now, what right do we have to say that. Because it's in a book? Did God write the Bible? No, man did. Was it written by humans but spoken by God? Maybe, but we don't know that. I have nothing againsed the good of Christianity. It tells people to be good, and "treat people the way you wish to be treated." I love that line and use it all the time. But talking about everyone else being wrong? What if another person from another religon told you that you were wrong, and casually said "You'll go to hell when you die". How would you feel if you were told that. I bet not very good, no matter what. People get hurt when you tell them this, and it's not right. That is what upsets me. The "golden rule" of the Bible goes againsed itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging someone to hell is something only God can do. We're not doing that. However, recommending people how to get saved, and preaching, does in no way hurt anyone, unless you know you are wrong.

You know, actually, a muslim who converted to Christianity told a friend of mine that he had no connection to God whatsoever before he turned to Jesus- and then he could really feel the holy spirit. Before he had just prayed to God because he had to, but he never got any real response. But through Jesus, he did.

And what about other religions, take buddhism for example. The whole point is to die! You want to be good enough to finally die so that you wont be reincarnated again /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Evolutionism requires more faith than any other religion!

The Bible has been approved of with archeology, geology, biology, etc etc. It is the most correct book that has ever been published. It's faultless - people have been trying to find "contradictions" etc, but none have succeeded in doing so in a real debate. Evolutionists constantly loose against creationists in scientific debates. I could go on and on.

Only one religion can be right, as the others (if they differ as much as they do) are then wrong by default. The only way to decide which is right, is to go by logic, feeling, history, and science.

Here is what I have been, in chronological order:

Theistic Evolutionist,
Greek Mythologist (yes /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif no joke)
Voodooist
Theistic Evolutionist
Biblical Creationist

The reason I became a creationist is because I OPENMINDEDLY (although I was really indoctrinated by evolutionism in the beginning) looked at the evidence, and from both perspectives, and I realized --- hey, evolution just can't be right! Nothing is speaking for it! And then after that, I started studying the Bible with new glasses, so to speak. And guess what? I realized something. I realized that I had been wrong all the time, and I saw the truth.

Hopefully, you will too! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RichW]

Fantastic analysis William!

[William Ustav]

Thanks guys /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I came to the conclusion that there is no one single correct religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based upon what? Are there multiple truths or no truth?

[ QUOTE ]
I feel as long as you have a decent set of morals and strive to be a better person you will be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine by who's standards? Yours? How will your standards mean anything on Judgement Day if they are not the same as God's standards?

I do not mean this in a deragatory manner, but who cares what you think is fine? If God is real and he is going to judge us all that matters are His standards of judgment, not yours or mine.

By the above statment you indicate there is indeed a absolute set of morals. In which case that means God has a right to judge us according to His standard of absolutes.

And as I have all demonstrated we've all broken each of the 10 commandments. Based upon that we are all guilty.

[ QUOTE ]
Because it's in a book? Did God write the Bible? No, man did.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've covered this completely already and if you think that is even a worthy rebuttle you are sorely mistaken.

[ QUOTE ]
I have nothing againsed the good of Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew anything about Christianity you would know "good" has nothing to do with it. Please read this entire thread.

[ QUOTE ]
It tells people to be good, and "treat people the way you wish to be treated."

[/ QUOTE ]

It tells people to admit they're not perfect and accept Christ. Please stop with the strawman arguements.

[ QUOTE ]
But talking about everyone else being wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

We're talking about what Christ said. If there are multiple paths to God why did Jesus have to die? Answer me that. Why would He inflict Himself with all the sin of the world, if there was another way?

<font color="red"> Matthew 26
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
</font>

Christ proved there was no other way. In his deep sorrow he prayed that God would allow another way to Himself outside of his sacrifice. There was no other way.

[ QUOTE ]
What if another person from another religon told you that you were wrong, and casually said "You'll go to hell when you die".

[/ QUOTE ]

I would evaluate their claims. So far you've rebuttled nothing except to say, "the Truth might hurt".

And I also hope you know you're using the same line Satan used.

[ QUOTE ]
How would you feel if you were told that. I bet not very good, no matter what. People get hurt when you tell them this, and it's not right. That is what upsets me. The "golden rule" of the Bible goes againsed itself.

[/ QUOTE ]


Oh? Explain how that is so. Your statement is a logical contradiction.

For example, Christ is the only way to God, the sole truth. And I was a believer in Christ and knew that truth. Would it not be the golden rule to want others to have the truth I have?

It would be a violation of the Golden rule for me to not tell you what I know.

That would not be doing unto others as I would have them do to me, ie. telling me the truth. That would be selfishness. Keeping the truth only for myself.

Surely if I have the answer to eternal life, escape from God's wrath, along with being filled with the Holy Spirit, based upon the golden rule, you would want me to tell you that.

Christ Great Commission fulfilled the Golden rule.