drinking = sin?

[BigLarge]

My roomate and I always debate about this. I am Catholic, he is a non-denominational Christian.

He believes that drinking is against his beliefs, and getting drunk is a sin. I personally enjoy having a beer here or there, which he scolds me for. I do not believe it is against Christianity or Catholocism.

What is the TRUTH.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Venom]

The Bible, Beer, and Fornication... (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=520975& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[Venom]

/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Yu beat me! /forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
The Bible, Beer, and Fornication. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=520975&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I didn't know that mild drinking is a sin which makes me think of something else but I think I will make a new post.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[OUTLAW20SICX]

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/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Yu beat me! /forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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HAHA! Finally! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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it was close, lol

[Breaktrack]

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/forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Yu beat me! /forum/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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No fighting you two! What is meant by "mild drinking"? Jesus did drink wine when eating right? The Church has used wine for 2000 years. I don't mean to get into semantics, I'm just curious about the definition of mild, nothing more, nothing less.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Breaktrack]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you read the link?

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Yup, I just want to know what he considers to be "mild" drinking that's all

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[junfan68]

Well, I certainly don't agree that it is a sin to drink. To drink to excess certainly is.

I think the more appropriate question is "How does drinking affect your relationship with God?" The same question could be asked about anything...ie over-eating or even weight training. Anything that is done to the point where it replaces God in your life should be avoided.

Some people can have a glass of wine with dinner and be fine with it. Others, like myself, tend to drink to excess which often leads to un-Godly thoughts and behaviors....therefore, I do not drink at all.

[ZachE84]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally enjoy having a beer here or there, which he scolds me for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hes a good friend!

You're a BB'er, you shouldn't be drinking anyways...

[goldmill]

Also, if you really want to get technical.....studies have shown that an occasional class of wine is actually healthy.

[ZachE84]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you really want to get technical.....studies have shown that an occasional class of wine is actually healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didd you know that two tablespoons of cocoa powder contained ~600 milligrams of GAE and ~550 milligrams of ECE, making it about twice as rich in antioxidants as a glass of red wine.

So sorry, that excuse can no longer be used! /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[goldmill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you really want to get technical.....studies have shown that an occasional class of wine is actually healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didd you know that two tablespoons of cocoa powder contained ~600 milligrams of GAE and ~550 milligrams of ECE, making it about twice as rich in antioxidants as a glass of red wine.

So sorry, that excuse can no longer be used! /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it was the best thing in the world. I was just trying to point out that it isn't ALL bad.

[junfan68]

Zach or anyone else,
Can you prove to me that Jesus never drank wine? Or that the water that he turned into wine was non-alcoholic? Or the wine he drank with his disciples at the Last Supper?

[ZachE84]

I never stated anything about Religion.

[junfan68]

[ QUOTE ]
I never stated anything about Religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK fine.

Anyone else?

[WeaponX]

I personally am very strongly against alcohol and the devastating effects it has on millions and millions of lives. I dare say everyone knows someone who's life has been adversely effected by someone who abuses alcohol or by their own problems with alcohol. People who say,"drinking isn't bad if you do it responsibly" drive me crazy. If anyone can explain to me how you responsibly poison your body I would love to hear it. Do you responsibly take arsenic as well?

[getnbgr]

Alcohol is addictive and abusive just like any other drug. One glass of wine might have some healthy properties but I don't know too many people who drink who stick to one glass (remember it's addictive). Alcohol is detimental to weight training, muscle gain and clean living. End of story.

[WeaponX]

On the wine being healthy thing you know what else is really healthy. Drink one cup of your own urine a day, the amount of antibodies it contains is incredibly healthy and is a great boost for your immune system. I don't see a line for people wanting to drink their own urine though.
I have never met anyone who drinks wine because it is healthy and never takes it to excess, has anyone else?

[junfan68]

I know plenty of people who drink, but do not drink in excess.

Urine...haha...well, have you ever thought about the notion that some people drink wine because they like the taste of it? Big difference.

The question was not if drinking is sub-optimal for a bodybuilding lifestyle, but rather whether or not it was Biblically OK.

Focus gentlemen.

[WeaponX]

True, true. It is off focus. Let me explain though why this is a particulary bad day to ask me about alcohol, rant coming. Trust me I will feel better after I air this out.

I was supposed to do a MOHS surgery on an elderly patient this morning at 8:45, but I had to cancel it because one of our office managers decided they were Irish last night. Our main boss is out of town for the week and he left the assistant office manager in charge while he was gone. Well, last night our assistant office manager decided to go out and celebrate St.Patrick's day (she is from Mexico and doesn't even know what the holiday is!!!) and this morning overslept and is too hungover to make it in until 2pm. Well since I am now the only person here today who is able to run the office I have to handle everything until she sobers up. So this morning I had to call and reschedule my patient's appointment for next Wednesday which means I now have 3 surgeries in one day! The assistant office manager ,who also happens to be my best friend, is very lucky I am not in power here. If I was I would fire her on the spot when she got her for that sort of neglegance and irresponsiblity.

Sorry had to get that out.

[BigLarge]

What OldSchool wrote does make sense when read... and I do agree that drunkeness is against Christianity....

however, as a Catholic on Sundays, we recieve fermented wine as the Blood of Christ. I feel as though the judgement of the Catholic church, which i might add is certainly not based upon newer idealistc views (quite the opposite, actually), is suficient. Catholicism is the base, which I will stem my beliefs from.

If we can have a sip of wine of Sundays, under the Pope and Catholicism in good faith, then I do not believe God will look down upon me to have a glass of wine with dinner.

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
Alcohol is addictive and abusive just like any other drug. One glass of wine might have some healthy properties but I don't know too many people who drink who stick to one glass (remember it's addictive). Alcohol is detimental to weight training, muscle gain and clean living. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I have to defend wine lovers here. Although I hate wine, there are people who drink it for the taste and yes they do stick with one glass per day. My parents love wine and make their own wine and don't drink it to get drunk. One glass a day is about average, usually less. Yes there are people who abuse alcohol and then there are people who truly enjoy the flavor. I myself might have a beer or a martini on a special occassion, maybe 4-5 times a year. Does that me an addict?

Wine's healthy properties however have been studied numerous times. I have also read more than once that the benefits that a glass of wine a day gives you would be the same as eating the equivalent in grapes. The antioxidants in wine do come from the grapes and not the alcohol.

Alcholol IS detrimental to weight training but that is not what is being discussed here.

[getnbgr]

Your right of course didn't really mean to post in direction that is off track.

[bigpoppadiesel]

didnt they use to drink wine because the alcohol killed the bacteria making it safer to drink than water back in the day? also the way i see it if u start arguing things like well one or 2 beers wont hurt u theres still the opportunity that something bad can happen. you could go through most of the bible and just through it out the window by the same logic. is sex bad? is one or 2 hummers really going to hurt you? probably not but the risk is still there. basically from what ive learned the bible is the sure shot way not to land on your head. if u stray from it your chances increase. also and this is way off topic and i apologize, the bible and buddhism seem to have some strong similarities. if you dont do anything that feels AMAZING you wont get burned. just my 2 cents.

[Breaktrack]

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Who is "he?"

I think Old School's post is pretty clear:

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The answer may be found in Psalms 84:11, "...no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."

Alcoholic beverages are not good for us. Therefore, our heavenly Father forbids their use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't drink at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

"He" is COZ. I simply want to know what mild drinking is. Not with what the heavenly Father or anyone else has to say about it at this point because I already know.

[Adam Knowlden]

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Can you prove to me that Jesus never drank wine? Or that the water that he turned into wine was non-alcoholic? Or the wine he drank with his disciples at the Last Supper?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I already showed why using the Greek word oinos, that the context of the text surrounding the word must be used to determine whether the bible(or Hebrew or Greek) was referring to fermented or unfermented wine. See the above link.

Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

Moreover for Jesus to create over a hundred of gallons of intoxicating wine, or to drink fermented wine, would mean the bible contradicts itself and also that He denied His position as King and High Priest.

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." (Prov. 23:31).

The word look as Solomon used it means "to lust for" or "to desire." He is simply saying that we are to have nothing to do with wine after it has fermented.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise) (Prov. 20:1)

Jesus was also a Rabbi, and also our High Priest, descended from a line of kings.

Priests were forbidden to drink intoxicating wine.

<font color="red"> 8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,

9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
</font>

Therefore we can define from the context that Melchizedek did not carry intoxicating wine with thim.

<font color="red"> And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine [yayin]: and he was the priest of the most high God" (Gen. 14:18). </font>

Jesus descended from the line of Melchizedek, making Him a high Priest, the bible also tells us He is The High Priest,

<font color="green"> 1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
</font>

Also Hebrew confirms this:

<font color="666666"> And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
</font>

<font color="blue"> 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. </font>

<font color="red"> 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

</font>

Jesus was also a King. He was an heir to the throne:

<font color="purple"> 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,

25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,

26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,

28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,

29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,

30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,

31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,

32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,

35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,

36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
</font>

And He Himself confirmed He was a king:

<font color="brown"> 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. </font>

In fact the king of kings,

<font color="blue"> 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
</font>

It was also forbidden for kings to drink fermented wine.

<font color="blue"> "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted" (Prov. 31:4,5).
</font>

Therefore it is obvious from the context that the word oinos was referring to nonintoxicating grape juice.

Oinos, the Greek word most often translated "wine" in the New Testament, refers to grape juice in all its forms -- unfermented and fermented, nonintoxicating and intoxicating.

In the Septuagint Version, oinos is used to translate both yayin and tirosh from the Hebrew text. We have already seen that these two words mean grape juice in any form, with tirosh particularly referring to new wine or wine of the harvest.

In the New Testament, then, as well as in the Old, an understanding of the word wine can only come through studying the contexts.

We have already seen that in the Old Testament, fermented wine symbolized wrath and judgment. Its use was prohibited. It is inconceivable, then, that Jesus would have violated this biblical principle by making more than 120 gallons of intoxicating wine to be served to the wedding guests.

Furthermore for Jesus to partake in intoxicating wine, would have symbolized to all that He Himself denied His position as a king or a priest.

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who is "he?"

I think Old School's post is pretty clear:

[ QUOTE ]
The answer may be found in Psalms 84:11, "...no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."

Alcoholic beverages are not good for us. Therefore, our heavenly Father forbids their use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't drink at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

"He" is COZ. I simply want to know what mild drinking is. Not with what the heavenly Father or anyone else has to say about it at this point because I already know.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were addressing that question to me? I used the term "mild drinking" but I can only give u my definition of it. I personally don't think it is harmful to have a drink now and then. As I stated I may have 5-6 drinks a year on occassions. However, I would consider anything under 4 drinks a month or so, mild. That is just my opinion.

I was not aware that alcohol was a sin since I know some very religious christians who drink quite regularly.

[President Wilson]

Mr. Knowlden,

first class study!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[William Ustav]

That was a great study, Adam! Very well put! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[junfan68]

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover for Jesus to create over a hundred of gallons of intoxicating wine, or to drink fermented wine, would mean the bible contradicts itself and also that He denied His position as King and High Priest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

Mr. Knowdlen,
I would like to see if you can reconcile John 2 for me then.

<font color="blue">John 2


Jesus Changes Water to Wine

1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."
5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[1]
7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.
8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."
9They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, <font color="brown"> "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."</font> 11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
</font>

If you read this story, you get a glimpse into some of the customs of Jewish weddings at the time Jesus was actually alive. Now, it's fairly obvious that the good wine was used first, and they would bring out the wine of lesser quality later on, after people were somewhat inebriated and therefore couldn't tell the difference.

This clearly suggests that in this instance, Jesus did turn the water into fermented wine.

[Tuf]

******,

Here are some thoughts from Clarke's Commentary:
[ QUOTE ]
A question has been asked, "Did our Lord turn all the water into wine which the six measures contained?" To which I answer: There is no proof that he did; and I take it for granted that he did not. It may be asked, "How could a part be turned into wine, and not the whole?" To which I answer: The water, in all likelihood, was changed into wine as it was drawn out, and not otherwise. "But did not our Lord by this miracle minister to vice, by producing an excess of inebriating liquor?" No; for the following reasons: 1. The company was a select and holy company, where no excess could be permitted. And, 2. Our Lord does not appear to have furnished any extra quantity, but only what was necessary. "But it is intimated in the text that the guests were nearly intoxicated before this miraculous addition to their wine took place; for the evangelist says, otan mequsqwsi, when they have become intoxicated." I answer: 1. It is not intimated, even in the most indirect manner, that these guests were at all intoxicated. 2. The words are not spoken of the persons at that wedding at all: the governor of the feast only states that such was the common custom at feasts of this nature; without intimating that any such custom prevailed there. 3. The original word bears a widely different meaning from that which the objection forces upon it. The verbs mequskw and mequw, from mequ, wine, which, from meta quein, to drink after sacrificing, signify not only to inebriate, but to take wine, to drink wine, to drink enough: and in this sense the verb is evidently used in the Septuagint, Gen. xliii. 34; So v. 1; 1 Macc. xvi. 16; Haggai i. 6; Ecclus. i. 16. And the Prophet Isaiah, Isa. lviii. 11, speaking of the abundant blessings of the godly, compares them to a watered garden, which the Septuagint translate, wv khpov mequwn, by which is certainly understood, not a garden drowned with water, but one sufficiently saturated with it, not having one drop too much, nor too little.

[/ QUOTE ]

[junfan68]

Tuf,
Thanks for the commentary. I agree with alot of it, and the way I read it he seems to acknowledge the fact that it was indeed fermented wine, but argues that Jesus did not produce an excessive amount of inebriating liquor. Well, that's great. We are not talking about whether or not the guests were inebriated.

But I think you can see from this commentary as well as from the TEXT, that it was normal and customary for fermented wine to be served at Jewish weddings. And the story in John 2 does nothing to say this wedding was any different.

The bottom line is that we all agree that the Bible repeatedly speaks against drinking to excess, drinking to the point that you are "decieved", or whatever. Scripture is clear on that point. However, I have yet to see a piece of scripture that suggests we are forbidden to drink at all. I think that we cannot say the the Bible tells us it is wrong to have one glass of wine.

And to just to be clear on my situation...I do not drink at all.

[PsychoJr]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I certainly don't agree that it is a sin to drink. To drink to excess certainly is.

I think the more appropriate question is "How does drinking affect your relationship with God?" The same question could be asked about anything...ie over-eating or even weight training. Anything that is done to the point where it replaces God in your life should be avoided.

Some people can have a glass of wine with dinner and be fine with it. Others, like myself, tend to drink to excess which often leads to un-Godly thoughts and behaviors....therefore, I do not drink at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am actually agreeing with ******68 on something! I believe that there a lot of good things that God put here that are abused. Life is about balance and your relationship with him. There are a lot of VERY Godly men that I respect that have no problem with a glass of wine or beer ocassionally, including my pastor - and I'm not in a liberal denomination.

BTW, I have researched (as well as consulted with many pastors I know) the original Greek and Hebrew texts and wine does mean real wine, not unfermented as many have argued. I'm sure this is one where we will just agree to disagree on -- with much respect for differing opinion, of course!

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the fact that Jesus was forbidden to drink fermented wine? This was defenietly not allowed for any Priest, of which Jesus was called by the Father, the Great High Priest.

We can rest assured, Jesus fulfilled all the scriptures.

<font color="red">Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. </font>


[ QUOTE ]
Now, it's fairly obvious that the good wine was used first, and they would bring out the wine of lesser quality later on, after people were somewhat inebriated and therefore couldn't tell the difference.

This clearly suggests that in this instance, Jesus did turn the water into fermented wine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inebriated= Exhilarated or stupefied by or as if by alcohol; intoxicated.

You are suggesting the people were intoxicated enough to dull the sense of taste. And I believe using your interpertation of the context "somewhat inerbriated" is being quit conservative. If the wine was fermented and was drank to the point the jars were empty, the people would be highly intoxicated.

<font color="blue"> 6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[ </font>

We are talking about at least 120 gallons of alcoholic beverages. Moreover, can you show me biblically where the bible makes a distinction in "degrees of drunkedness"?

If they were intoxicated to the point their taste was dulled, as you suggest from your interpertation of the context, by biblical standards they were drunk.

But besides that, you agree that it is a sin to be drunk.

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is that we all agree that the Bible repeatedly speaks against drinking to excess, drinking to the point that you are "decieved", or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

If being drunk is a sin would Jesus respond by giving them more intoxicating wine to continue gettting drunk? Would this not constitute Jesus helping them partake in sin?

And again, you have a common misconception in reference to what was considered "good wine". Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines. Fermented wine is a made by a process of decay.

I already stated this in the other link:

n 1907, Dr. R. A. Torrey wrote:

"The wine provided for the marriage festivities at Cana failed. A cloud was about to fall over the joy of what is properly a festive occasion. Jesus came to the rescue. He provided wine, but there is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was fresh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until sometime after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay or death. He produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation."

One of the great Bible scholars of this century, Dr. William Pettingill, wrote:

"I do not pretend to know the nature of the wine furnished by our Lord at the wedding of Cana, but I am satisfied that there was little resemblance in it to the thing described in the Scriptures of God as biting like a serpent and stinging like an adder (Prov. 23:29-32). Doubtless rather it was like the heavenly fruit of the vine that He will drink new with His own in His Father's kingdom (Matt. 26:29). No wonder the governor of the wedding feast at Cana pronounced it the best wine kept until the last. Never before had he tasted such wine, and never did he taste it again."

Isn't that characteristic of our Lord? For believers, the best is yet to come!

Those who base their use of beverage alcohol on the miracle at Cana are on shaky ground. The excellent commentary Barnes On the New Testament places the burden where it belongs.

"No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the 'water pots' of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink".

The water pots of Cana were filled with kingdom wine and the earthly supply is exhausted, not to be replenished until the King returns.

"Fermented wine is not a product of the vine. Chemically it is entirely different from the sweet and unfermented grape juice. Fermented wine is 14% alcohol, and it has other constituents that are not found in the fresh grape juice. Alcohol does not grow on the vine. It is not a vine product. Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling."

The fruit of the vine used in the first Communion service speaks of the blood of Christ. Moses called unfermented grape juice the "pure blood of the grape" (Deut. 32:14). Decay has not taken place in fresh grape juice, and that fact is vital in the symbol of the blood of Christ. David prophesied that the body of Christ would be totally preserved from decay or corruption.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption"(Ps. 16:10).

Peter says this is a reference to the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:31). So we are given the assurance both prophetically and by the New Testament Scriptures that the body of Christ experienced no corruption or decay. It would be improper, then, for a product of decay (fermented wine) to be used to symbolize His blood. Commenting on this text in his book The King of the Jews, Dr. John R. Rice says:

"The cup the disciples drank at the Lord's supper is nowhere called wine, but "the fruit of the vine." We believe it was simply grape juice. Even if the word wine had been used, wine in the Bible means grape juice, whether fermented or unfermented. Fermented wine, with microbes of decay, would not picture the perfect blood of a sinless Christ."

William Patton concurs, stating:

"Leaven, because it was corruption, was forbidden as an offering to God... If leaven was not allowed with the sacrifices, which were the types of the atoning blood of Christ, how much more would it be a violation of the commandment to allow leaven, or that which was fermented, to be the symbol of the blood of atonement? We cannot imagine that our Lord, in disregard of so positive a command, would admit leaven into the element which was to perpetuate the memory of the sacrifice of himself, of which all the other sacrifices were but types."

Fermented wine would have been out of place at the Lord's Supper for a number of reasons. Perhaps the most important has to do with the holy character of this experience. Remember that in the Old Testament, the priests were forbidden to use wine. Jesus is our great High Priest, the fulfiller of the Scriptures. We can be sure that He remained consistent when establishing the Communion service and therefore did not use intoxicating wine as the symbol of His blood.

The final statement of our Lord on the Communion service settles the issue. All Christians who take Communion are to do so in anticipation of the coming kingdom. We have already seen that the wine of the kingdom is unfermented. If we are to look forward to the wine of Eden and Cana during the kingdom, it would be inconsistent to use intoxicating wine when remembering the death of our Savior and King.

Wine offered to Jesus on the cross

"And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not" (Mark 15:23).

The wine offered to Jesus at the time of His crucifixion was, without doubt, intoxicating wine. Its purpose was to make the pain more bearable.

In His most trying hour, Jesus refused intoxicating wine.

And so should we.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that we cannot say the the Bible tells us it is wrong to have one glass of wine.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible forbids the use of wine as we know it today.

All wine?

Every drop.

It does more than warn us not to get drunk, but not to even look, or desire, alcohol:

<font color="red">"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright" (Prov. 23:31). </font>

Medicinal use is the only possible exception (1 Tim. 5:23).

And historical evidence shows Paul was most likely suggesting non-alcoholic wine.

These studies have confirmed this: a study of wine in the Old Testament amd a study of Jesus and wine. Three sacred sources speak for total abstinence from intoxicants.

The person who abstains from alcoholic beverages is on solid biblical ground. This position is not popular. Nevertheless, it is the scriptural one.

<font color="red">"If you love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:15
</font>

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I have researched (as well as consulted with many pastors I know) the original Greek and Hebrew texts and wine does mean real wine, not unfermented as many have argued.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is wrong. Please show me your research. The Greek word is oinos. And does not distinguish between unfermented and fermented wine. The context must be used to distinguish the difference.

[Adam Knowlden]

Furthermore, are we not all called to be priests?

<font color="red"> Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,

2 As newborn Babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

</font>

Should a priest called to represent Christ, drink in front of sinners?

<font color="red"> 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. </font>

We can rest assured the "fruit of the vine" we will drink in heaven will not be intoxicating wine.

<font color="brown"> 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
</font>

<font color="red"> 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. </font>

Furthemore, is not the father and mother of a house called to be the spiritual leaders?

<font color="blue">Ephesians 6:4
"Fathers provoke not your children to anger; but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord." </font>

Is drinking beer or liquor in front of one's kids " bringing them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."?

"But dad does the bible say you can drink"

"As long as you don't get drunk son!"

Think about that logic. That's like telling a kid you can smoke as long as you don't inhale. That was the line a former President used and no one bought it.

I'm not trying to condemn anyone, only getting those who promote the bible teaches its OK to drink alcohol, a poision to the body, to think upon these issues.

<font color="blue"> Deuteronomy 6:6-7
"And these words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your hearts; and you shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up." </font>

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, are we not all called to be priests?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an outstanding point

[Apoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally am very strongly against alcohol and the devastating effects it has on millions and millions of lives. I dare say everyone knows someone who's life has been adversely effected by someone who abuses alcohol or by their own problems with alcohol. People who say,"drinking isn't bad if you do it responsibly" drive me crazy. If anyone can explain to me how you responsibly poison your body I would love to hear it. Do you responsibly take arsenic as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me view exactly, i personally despise Drinking almost as much as drugs. They protray smokign as terrible and drugs are terrible yet alcohol is seen as the cool thing to do? I personally see the bad side of drinking every weekend when my sis comes home plowed and curses and destroys things...Why would anyone want any part of that?

[Venom]

Awesome posts Old school!

And thank you Tuf for sharing that commentary. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[junfan68]

Well OldSchool,
You have given us your interpretation of the scriptures, as well as some commentaries by some other "men". There are plenty of people who have their own interpretations, that in fact differ from yours. It doesn't mean that you are right, or they are wrong. The facts are we will not know everything this side of glory.

There are differences of opinion out there, not only of "wine", but other things such as "speaking in tongues" or other issues.

I would submit that if God wanted to make clear that he forbids ANY alcohol like he does for extra-marital sex, adultery, murder, lust, etc., God would have been much more specific in the scriptures, and Christ might have been specific about it himself. But they weren't, and since none of us were there, it is up to some degree of interpretation.

Why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 5:23 ?
<font color="red">23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.</font>

After all, if we are not to drink "one drop", and Paul is telling someone it is OK to drink some wine, and it is incorrect to do so, then we would have a problem with contradiction in the scriptures.

I see you posted it was OK only for medicinal reasons.

Does that mean it's OK to smoke marijuana for medicinal reasons?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of people who have their own interpretations, that in fact differ from yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for that enlightening insight. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I believe in unity under Christ, not uniformity. However this does not detract from the exhortation of the scriptures.

<font color="red">2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. </font>

And you have not shown any rebuttle aside from your opinion. I have shown mine from a biblical standpoint.

Here is what you said eariler:

[ QUOTE ]
The question was not if drinking is sub-optimal for a bodybuilding lifestyle, but rather whether or not it was Biblically OK.

Focus gentlemen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please abide by your own rules. Where is your biblical rebuttal?

[ QUOTE ]
The facts are we will not know everything this side of glory.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again that does not counteract my points. They are biblically valid points and the best rebuttle given is, "Well we just don't know everything!"

Sorry argueing from silence is never a legitimate rebuttle in a debate. The point of a debate is to arrive at a conclusion. If this type of tactic was allowed, no conclusion could ever be drawn from the debate.

That fact is the verses are clear to anyone not looking for excuses:

<font color="red"> "Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1) </font>

[ QUOTE ]
I would submit that if God wanted to make clear that he forbids ANY alcohol like he does for extra-marital sex, adultery, murder, lust, etc.,

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps with this comparison and your interpertation we are allowed to partially kill, lust, etc. Or would it make more biblical sense to totally avoid these sins and any precursor that could even have the slightest potential of inducing them?

Now using that same logic, apply this verse,

<font color="red">9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. </font>


[ QUOTE ]
God would have been much more specific in the scriptures,

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; </font>

I don't see how it could be any more specific.

[ QUOTE ]
would submit that if God wanted to make clear that he forbids ANY alcohol like he does for extra-marital sex, adultery, murder, lust, etc., God would have been much more specific in the scriptures, and Christ might have been specific about it himself. But they weren't, and since none of us were there, it is up to some degree of interpretation.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could Christ get any more specific about it? He was a Priest, fobidden to drink any alcohol, and rejected alcohol on the cross. We are to live by His example.


[ QUOTE ]
There are differences of opinion out there, not only of "wine", but other things such as "speaking in tongues" or other issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that does nothing to detract from my arguement. Dodging the arugement by appealing to other topics of debate does not prove your point or even offer a reasonable arguement.

[ QUOTE ]
Why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 5:23 ?
23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already covered that.

Paul wrote to Timothy, "...Use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23)

Again, the word for wine is oinos, so there is no direct indication of its alcoholic content. And again, comparing medical usage to recreational usage is not comparable at all regardless, so your case is a mute point.

FFurthermore, the Greek historian, Athenaeus (AD 280), gave a similar prescription as Paul, "Take glucose...being very good for the stomach." The health benefits of non-alcoholic grape juice, rich with glucose, are well known today.

Paul never recommended directly mentioned alcohol as a means of pain medication.

[ QUOTE ]
I see you posted it was OK only for medicinal reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

And? Again, this is not necessarily alcoholic.

However, pain killers are alright for medical purposes as well. That has nothing to do with taking them for pleasure.

You are compaing apples to oranges.

Or using your logic, I suppose we are allowed to take pain killers so long as we don't feel the effects. Or smoke [*%#*%*#] so long as we don't get high.

[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean it's OK to smoke [*%#*%*#] for medicinal reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a whole other issue. Moreover, there are much better ways to administer medical [*%#*%*#] aside from inhaling toxic smoke. You should know that before making such a faulty comparison.

I have seen no legitimate rebuttle, only red herring and strawmen arguements.