ABC and God.

[MadFishWilly]

I was reading over the forum rules and found the rules speaking about religion.

"ABC is founded upon the Bible and is structured on the Commandments of His Infallibe Word." -from forum rules

I often wondered when I visted this site in the past why their seemed to be much more bible quotes and other such text within people's "signatures" compared to another typical forum.

I believe most people come to this site for guidence for their health, bodybuilding, and fitness needs, not for spirtual guidence. That being said, I'm not trying to say that I have a problem with any of these observations. However, I was just curious as to why people think it is neccessary to bring the religious aspect into ABC. I used to post here a couple of years ago, and I don't remember the religious affliation before.

Again, I'm not trying to raise hell (no pun intended, hehe), or create any drama within the boards. I was just making some of these observations and was wondering what you all thought about it. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ZachE84]

Yes, the site is centered around God. The mods, nor any users, bring God into a conversation unless they are, for the most part, asked to do so.

[given_to_fly]

It's definitely helping me out as a person to have the spirtiual influence and guidance on the site. So I for one am thankful. I guess that's my two cents on it. If one wishes to ignore it, I don't believe its 'in your face' or anything so that is quite possible to do.

[MadFishWilly]

[ QUOTE ]
It's definitely helping me out as a person to have the spirtiual influence and guidance on the site. So I for one am thankful. I guess that's my two cents on it. If one wishes to ignore it, I don't believe its 'in your face' or anything so that is quite possible to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I believe someone could ignore it very easily if they choose to. But I got the impression from reading the forum rules and the fact that seemingly most of the moderators are christian in their belief that if I were to have sometihing in my "signature" that is from let's say a different religion or even atheism I would be banned.

I'm not planning on doing any of this by the way, i'm just throwing out the hypothetical situation. I don't come from any religious background so to me, the religious aspect of this site is pretty shocking or overwhelming. Again, not that big of a deal but since we're talking, I figured I would add more of my thoughts.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I was reading over the forum rules and found the rules speaking about religion.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also a lot of this is structured around the scientific informational articles on the site.

The writers of JHR are all creationists and will not compromise our research with evolutionary nonsense. As a result some brought it upon themselves to challenge our belief in creation.

They would tend to get frustrated and resort to ad hominem attacks on us. Thus the rule.

[ QUOTE ]
I often wondered when I visted this site in the past why their seemed to be much more bible quotes and other such text within people's "signatures" compared to another typical forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

ABC is not typical. In fact in the next few years there will be no body building site even remotely as innovative as us!

Also we have shown time and time again how the discipline and determination, along with the sport of body building can be compared to our spiritual life and walk.

[ QUOTE ]
believe most people come to this site for guidence for their health, bodybuilding, and fitness needs, not for spirtual guidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that is why there are 12 forums which revolve around these very topics. The members discussion forum often brings up God related threads. If these offend you, simply gloss them over! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
However, I was just curious as to why people think it is neccessary to bring the religious aspect into ABC.

[/ QUOTE ]

God created the human body. It is only right to acredit the designer with His Creation!

[ QUOTE ]
I used to post here a couple of years ago, and I don't remember the religious affliation before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and a few years ago this site was in disarray. Its much better now. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I believe someone could ignore it very easily if they choose to.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the point. Moreover they could easily stick to the other 12 forums!

[ QUOTE ]
But I got the impression from reading the forum rules and the fact that seemingly most of the moderators are christian in their belief that if I were to have sometihing in my "signature" that is from let's say a different religion or even atheism I would be banned.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. But if the signature was in the intent of mocking God, it would be removed.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't come from any religious background so to me, the religious aspect of this site is pretty shocking or overwhelming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then look at it as a way to expand your horizons. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
"ABC is founded upon the Bible and is structured on the Commandments of His Infallibe Word."

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what it is all about.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe most people come to this site for guidence for their health, bodybuilding, and fitness needs, not for spirtual guidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you believe is irrelevent in this situation. Its The Lord's site. If you come here, then you will see his name Glorified.

[ QUOTE ]
why their seemed to be much more bible quotes and other such text within people's "signatures" compared to another typical forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

1. There are also more references in our Journal then thethe typical site

2. We are anything but typical. Therefore we are accomplishing exactly the criterion which was in mind when the site was started.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I was just curious as to why people think it is neccessary to bring the religious aspect into ABC

[/ QUOTE ]

The Lord has provided everything you see on this site. In fact, everything you have, whether you acknowledge it or not, which is good, is from God.

By not honoring him, you are essentially taking, without giving anything whatsoever back. How unfortunate, sad, and ignorant.

[ QUOTE ]
I was just making some of these observations and was wondering what you all thought about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

We think you need to be grateful, and start thanking the Lord for what he gave you, instead of living your life for the lusts of your flesh.

Next time you have a comment on the forum rules, write a mod, that was also included in there.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
let's say a different religion or even atheism I would be banned.


[/ QUOTE ]

Atheism is a religion.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
That is what it is all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen!

[ QUOTE ]
If you come here, then you will see his name Glorified.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything glorifies His name. Some simply chose to live in the dark.

<font color="red"> 18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.


</font>

If one comes to the table with a open heart, and objecitvely studies the evidence, the conclusion of the evidence will show God does indeed exist, and furthermore the evidence will show Jesus is the Truth. Many chose to live in ignorance and ignore even considering this evidence. The reason? If theres a design, there is a designer, a creation a creator. And that might mean there are absolutes.

Denying His right as God in the present is only delaying the inevitable, one day all will confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of the Father...

<font color="blue"> 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


</font>

[William Ustav]

Nice breakdown, guys! We wouldn't even be here if it weren't for God! We owe everything to Him! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

For me, nothing beats a life full of both physical and spiritual discipline and training!

It's the perfect combination! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
it's like the hormonal mechanism of positive feedback, they keep feeding off of each other, bringing them both to new heights every day!


[/ QUOTE ]

Outstanding breakdown!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice breakdown, guys! We wouldn't even be here if it weren't for God! We owe everything to Him! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, I am not heavily religious but I do believe in a God, or an almighty being of some kind, but to call that being "him" I think is very short sighted. Are you saying God is a man? If so he couldn't have created "man" as he was one already!

And at the risk of starting a religious debate, which along with politics is something I like to keep personal and keep my opinions to myself and to let others have their own opinions, if God created man on the 6th Day, where did he (man) go for the next umpteen billion years between the 6th day of the universe to when civilised man started to appear a few thousand years ago?

I am grateful to be alive, grateful to what/who I have no idea, but grateful I am. Just because you are grateful, does this mean you should worship the thing that created you? Do you think God wants to be worshipped, or do you think we were put on this earth to experience the wonder of life for our own selfish reasons and to give life to others for them to enjoy life too? Would enjoying life be what God truely wanted us to do?

Just a few thoughts that I have pondered for many years.

Discuss....

[10forty2]

Madfish...suffice it to say that the creator, developer, owner and controller of this site is a Christian and it is another way for him to spread the Word of God and the love of Jesus Christ. It's his choice and definitely his perogative to include as much or as little about God as he desires.

Over the past year, this site has (pardon me here Prez!) "evolved" into a labor of love for developing the spiritual and physical mind and body. I have witnessed many come here with questions and doubts about the existence of God and His promises only to become a new person through the knowledge provided by our President and the moderators. I have also witnessed people who were strong in their beliefs become even stronger as a result of the fellowship of Christians here at this site.

You made mention that most people come here for advice on bodybuilding, health and nutrition and that is true, but isn't it great that they can get so much more just by spending a little time reading the wonderful, uplifting messages that are here for the taking.

I'm not good at remembering what book, chapter and verse, certain scriptures come from, but I can remember the basic message. One that stands out in this circumstance is

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be added unto you."

Perhaps your returning to ABC to find all this religious stuff is God calling you to come closer and to know Him as He desires to know you.

Welcome back, and I wish you blessings from the Lord each time you return!

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be added unto you."


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great quote, whether you are religious or not.
God can mean many things to many people.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
but to call that being "him" I think is very short sighted. Are you saying God is a man? If so he couldn't have created "man" as he was one already!



[/ QUOTE ]

God is a Spirit. He isn't any gender. But He refers to Himself as our Heavenly Father. So He is referred to as a Him.

[ QUOTE ]
if God created man on the 6th Day, where did he (man) go for the next umpteen billion years between the 6th day of the universe to when civilised man started to appear a few thousand years ago?


[/ QUOTE ]

Man has always been fully human, starting on the 6th day. As Young earth Creationists we don't believe in half men/half apes.

Since you don't want to debate the issues, you're best bet to understand our view is to click on our bible study links url in our sigs and read under the topics of creation and evolution!

Thanks Migster! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I am not heavily religious but I do believe in a God, or an almighty being of some kind, but to call that being "him" I think is very short sighted.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Bible uses the words "he, him, his, etc." to refer to God. The Word of God is infallible and inerrant; it is incapable of error. It is deeply amiss to call it "short-sighted."

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying God is a man? If so he couldn't have created "man" as he was one already!

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not. God is an essential being. He is spirit and personality, whereas man is spirity, personality, and body. The nature of God is spirit, invisible, alive, personality, intellect, emotions, will, self-existence, immensity, and eternity. In the Bible, there are expressions that represent God as having bodily parts, but those representations are anthropomorphic and symbolic. They swerve to express the interests, powers, and activities of God. Unlike God, whose spirit is infinite and non-corporeal, man's spirit is finite and is able to dwell in a material body.

[ QUOTE ]
And at the risk of starting a religious debate, which along with politics is something I like to keep personal and keep my opinions to myself and to let others have their own opinions, if God created man on the 6th Day, where did he (man) go for the next umpteen billion years between the 6th day of the universe to when civilised man started to appear a few thousand years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]
First, I would suggest reading the Bible. That will prevent the risk of starting a religious debate, as your question will be answered therein. I would also suggest further study to prevent you from asserting your theory of "umpteen billion years."

[ QUOTE ]
I am grateful to be alive, grateful to what/who I have no idea, but grateful I am. Just because you are grateful, does this mean you should worship the thing that created you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Man's chief purpose is to worship God.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think God wants to be worshipped, or do you think we were put on this earth to experience the wonder of life for our own selfish reasons and to give life to others for them to enjoy life too?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, God desires our worship. We were created for his pleasure.
[ QUOTE ]
Would enjoying life be what God truely wanted us to do?

[/ QUOTE ]
God delights in us as his creation. We were created in his image, and it brings pleasure to him when we love and obey him.
[ QUOTE ]
Just a few thoughts that I have pondered for many years.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Bible is the best place to find answers to all of the questions you asked.

[W8lifter2]

Kinda off topic, but the English language doesn't have a term to describe individual people in non-gender terms. Well, ok, in the south they use "Y'all", but everywhere else its not used. The writers of the Bible use the masculine terms since in Aramic, Greek and Hebrew, they translate into masculine terms. But in no way is that to insinuate that God is "male" or "female".

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
Kinda off topic, but the English language doesn't have a term to describe individual people in non-gender terms. Well, ok, in the south they use "Y'all", but everywhere else its not used. The writers of the Bible use the masculine terms since in Aramic, Greek and Hebrew, they translate into masculine terms. But in no way is that to insinuate that God is "male" or "female".

[/ QUOTE ]

He's our father... that makes it pretty clear to me at least.

[ironteen rich]

[ QUOTE ]


I was reading over the forum rules and found the rules speaking about religion.




[/ QUOTE ]

I havent read the whole thread yet because I am at school, but i will later tonight.

But you have been hear close too 3 years and havent read the rules yet?

[jaredirl]

I don't think i've ever read the rules... Isn't it just common since? Or maybe a halfway decent sense of Tact? I'd assume it says no profanity, no bashing, and keep it PG rated...

On a side note, I came in here with no religious beliefs at all, I believe it's called Agnostic? I dunno. I wasn't athiest, and I didn't have an organized religion that I believed in. That's not to say that I don't believe in god or anything like that, just that I think that organized religion is a flawed practice, and I don't want to be a part of it. I guess i'm rambling now, so I'll stop...

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
I would also suggest further study to prevent you from asserting your theory of "umpteen billion years."

[/ QUOTE ]
Tuf, from my research I have found the the Universe is approx 10-15 Billion years old and planet earth is estimated at about 5 Billion years old. Agreed this isn't umpteen, as this would mean 13-19 Billion years, so in this case I am wrong, but that still doesn't account for the other 4,999,999,999 years and 359 days!

Can you elaborate more precisely?

Are you questioning that the planet earth has not been around for Billions of years from a book that was written by man just a few thousand years ago, back when they thought the earth was flat and the Sun was the centre of the universe?

I think God is a wonderful thing to believe in, but I also agre with jaredirl when he says that religion is heavily flawed. The whole basis of the bible is made of human belief and hope, but not a shred of scientific evidence.

[jaredirl]

Oh no. Here comes the carbon dating theory arguement..


I'm leaving.

[Midgster]

Carbon dating schmating. Common sense tells me that the planet earth is more than a few thousand years old

[jaredirl]

Midg, I'm not saying that I disagree with you, and as a matter of fact, I'm sure we agree with a lot of things..

These guys are all very intelligent as well, and seem to have unlimited time and resources when it comes to internet arguing. I don't. So I tend to shy away from even getting into these kind of things on the forums.

Just trying to prepare you for the endless set of links and references that you're about to get hit with regarding Carbon dating and such.

[Midgster]

I know Jaredirl, I've seen lots of gumf about carbon dating, but we as humans are not stupid, I'm just a man who likes to have evidence, and that evidence needs to be something more than just a book that was written a few thousand years ago. All the evidence that can be put forward can only be found in the bible and in people's beliefs.

And beside, I thought the bible said Jesus was Jewish!

I believe in a God, I just don't believe in the bible and I hope those who do can respect my opinion.

I have never read the bible from cover to cover so I cannot argue with what is in it to the level that the mods can.

[MMouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's definitely helping me out as a person to have the spirtiual influence and guidance on the site. So I for one am thankful. I guess that's my two cents on it. If one wishes to ignore it, I don't believe its 'in your face' or anything so that is quite possible to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I got the impression from reading the forum rules and the fact that seemingly most of the moderators are christian in their belief that if I were to have sometihing in my "signature" that is from let's say a different religion or even atheism I would be banned.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see that as being true on these boards. From my experience the mods and others are very strong in their beliefs, which I think is awesome. At the same time however, I think they give everyone their own free will and freedom of religion. I don't see anyone here pushing a certain religion or belief on anyone else, I only see men and women who are strong in faith and firmly stand behind what they believe in.
I for one have a pic in my sig which doesn't come from their particualr beliefs. No one has asked it removed or had a problem with it.

[Midgster]

Amen! (no pun intended!)

[Reddogma]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe in a God, I just don't believe in the bible and I hope those who do can respect my opinion.



[/ QUOTE ]

i did, until i read this.

[ QUOTE ]
I have never read the bible from cover to cover so I cannot argue with what is in it to the level that the mods can.

[/ QUOTE ]


at least educate yourself before you make any decisions.

edit-

I have trouble understanding the bible too, and i also jump to some awful conclusions. This is a good place to clear up any misunderstandings of scripture. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Midgster]

OK, now I'm interested in exactly how much the "followers of the bible" actually follow the Bible.

An obvious subject would be "Sex before Marriage"

How many of the "followers" have had sex before they were married?

And be honest!

I have obtained a few quotes from the bible on the subject too...

[ QUOTE ]

Exo 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

Deu 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Acts 15:20, 29 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (v.29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Rom 1:28-29 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Cor 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Cor 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

2 Cor 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

1 Tim 1:10 For *****mongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20-21 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



[/ QUOTE ]

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would also suggest further study to prevent you from asserting your theory of "umpteen billion years."

[/ QUOTE ]
Tuf, from my research I have found the the Universe is approx 10-15 Billion years old and planet earth is estimated at about 5 Billion years old. Agreed this isn't umpteen, as this would mean 13-19 Billion years, so in this case I am wrong, but that still doesn't account for the other 4,999,999,999 years and 359 days!

Can you elaborate more precisely?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. Study this (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=588253&amp;page=1&amp;view=collap sed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=4&amp;vc=1)
[ QUOTE ]
Are you questioning that the planet earth has not been around for Billions of years from a book that was written by man just a few thousand years ago, back when they thought the earth was flat and the Sun was the centre of the universe?

[/ QUOTE ]
No (see above link), and the Bible is not merely a book written by man. It is infallible, inerrant (John 17:17; Psalm 119:160), God-breathed, all-sufficient, and authoritative. It is inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-210; 1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Peter 1:3-4). Here is a biblical definition of inspiration:
"God’s superintendence of the human authors of Scripture so that using their own individual personalities, they composed and recorded without error His revelation to man in the words of the original autographs."
[ QUOTE ]
I think God is a wonderful thing to believe in, but I also agre with jaredirl when he says that religion is heavily flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]
/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Human thinking and opinion is heavily flawed.
[ QUOTE ]
The whole basis of the bible is made of human belief and hope, but not a shred of scientific evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read this (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=590954&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=How%20to%20use%20the%20Wor d%20of%20God%20Part%201&amp;Match=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Sear chpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=1week&amp;Main=590954&amp;Search=tru e#Post590954)

[William Ustav]

First of all, Jaredirl, the rules are here for a reason. You, and everyone else, not only should, but MUST read them, for both your and everyone else's sake.

Now Midgster, before you come with such statements, you should be ready to back them up. To me it seems clear that you don't have neither the knowledge of science nor the knowledge of the Bible to be able to start a debate about the age of the Earth.

It really behooves you to read the Bible studies on ABC (you can find them in my sig) about Evolution and Creation.

You say that common sense tells you that the earth is billions of years old - that is absolutely laughable! You have been indoctrinated to believe that billions of years is old, while 6000 years is YOUNG. 6000 years is A LOT.

In fact, evidence point towards the theory of a younger earth, not an old earth of billions of years.

Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years. 1

Today's world population growth rate is about 2% per year - practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be half that number, 1%. Wars, disease etc have wiped out approx. a third of the population on (Average) every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying this information on growth rates since the great flood about 4500 years ago,(The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 ) would give us a total human population at about 6 billion people. If you would apply this on the evolutionary time scale, you've got some major problems to solve. Starting with one couple, so to speak, about 41.000 years ago, would give us a total population of 2 x 10^89. 2 Fact is, the earth doesn't have space to hold that many bodies.

Let's not neglect the fact that man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock – all point to the simple fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past. 3

And the most amazing evidence for special creation, which I may throw in here, is how a living cell is so insanely complex that its interdependent components defy evolutionary explanations to 100%. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations. 4 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 . 5

It is definitely not common sense to say that the earth is billions of years old.

1 Barnes, Thomas, ICR Technical Monograph #4, Origin and Destiny of the Earth's Magnetic Field (2nd edition, 1983)

2 See Morris, Henry, Scientific Creationism (El Cajon, CA: Master Books)

3 Baugh, Carl, Why Do Men Believe Evolution AGAINST ALL ODDS? (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone, 1999)

4 Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Maryland: Adler &amp; Adler, 1986) p. 263

5 Mastropaolo, Joseph, "Evolution Is Biologically Impossible," Impact # 317 (El Cajon, CA: Institute For Creation Research,1999) p. 4

[William Ustav]

Good post, Tuf! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, now I'm interested in exactly how much the "followers of the bible" actually follow the Bible.

An obvious subject would be "Sex before Marriage"

How many of the "followers" have had sex before they were married?

And be honest!

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious, what do you think the answer to your question will prove? No, I did not have sex before I was married, yet I am hardly without sin. Furthermore, there are plenty of Christians who have given into that specific temptation. There is no man that does not sin (1 Kings 8:46). Just because you are a follower of Christ does not mean that you will be able to completely abandon sin. Regeneration allows us to overcome temptation and live a life of habitual victory. However, this does not translate to sinless perfection, but to the practice of righteousness.

[Midgster]

Tuf,
Everything in those threads are purely the opinions of those who believe in the bible. This does not make them correct. It can be argued as hear say.

William,
[ QUOTE ]
You have been indoctrinated to believe that billions of years is old

[/ QUOTE ]

indoctrinated, indoctrinating
1. To teach (an individual or group) to accept and believe a particular set of beliefs, etc uncritically.

Thesaurus: imbue, instruct, train, teach, school, drill, propagandize, initiate.


Did you find the bible completely on your own, or were you indoctrinated by your parents (or any other person) into the belief's of the bible?

If that is the case, you have been indoctrinated to believe in the bible.

[ QUOTE ]
To me it seems clear that you don't have neither the knowledge of science nor the knowledge of the Bible to be able to start a debate about the age of the Earth

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really need to be 100% knowledgeable on a subject before I can debate it or give my opinions? If this is the case, then not even the mighty Yu Yevon can debate about nutrition because he is not 100% knowledgable on the subkect (at least not yet anyhow! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Reddogma]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, now I'm interested in exactly how much the "followers of the bible" actually follow the Bible.

An obvious subject would be "Sex before Marriage"

How many of the "followers" have had sex before they were married?

And be honest!


[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, i've done alot of "No No's" , but i'm learning more every day, and i'm changing my ways acording to what i believe, is what God wants me to do.

[Midgster]

Tuf,

[ QUOTE ]
No (see above link), and the Bible is not merely a book written by man. It is infallible, inerrant (John 17:17; Psalm 119:160), God-breathed, all-sufficient, and authoritative. It is inspired (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-210; 1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Peter 1:3-4). Here is a biblical definition of inspiration:
"God’s superintendence of the human authors of Scripture so that using their own individual personalities, they composed and recorded without error His revelation to man in the words of the original autographs."

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth does that mean? It was written by the hand of a man!

But why is sex before marriage considered a sin? It's not a sin for other animals on this planet to fornicate is it?

There is only one other animal on the planet (that I know of) that is manogomous (sp?) and mates for life and they are swans...no idea where that point was going, but anyway!

Even if the act of sex is purely for reproductive reasons and not for pleasure, would it still be a sin outside of marriage?

And if so, why?

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you find the bible completely on your own, or were you indoctrinated by your parents (or any other person) into the belief's of the bible?

If that is the case, you have been indoctrinated to believe in the bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

As a matter of fact, my dad is a full-fledged evolutionist, and my mom is your average believer but not follower, who believes everything, from buddhism to evolutionism.

I myself, have not in any way been pushed toward believing in the Bible. I found it by myself and started reading it. After that I have changed completely as a person.

And to go further in that subject, I definitely wasn't a creationist from the beginning. I was just as indoctrinated to believe in evolution as anyone else. But I had one advantage - my whole life I had asked myself: "How could non-life turn into life? Millions of years - sure, but the transition life from non-life is still a real step - one second it was not living, the next it's living. And all by random? I don't think so.

I started to study creationism a bit, and suddenly all the pieces fell together. Whereas evolutionists have to compromise with the evidence all the time (i.e. create different charts of human evolution etc when in fact it's not based on science), creationism has it all in the package - there's an answer to everything.

[ QUOTE ]
Everything in those threads are purely the opinions of those who believe in the bible. This does not make them correct. It can be argued as hear say.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is one of the most ignorant remarks I've heard, I'm sorry to say. You haven't even read them it seems. Read them through before you make comments about them.

[ QUOTE ]
Do I really need to be 100% knowledgeable on a subject before I can debate it or give my opinions? If this is the case, then not even the mighty Yu Yevon can debate about nutrition because he is not 100% knowledgable on the subkect (at least not yet anyhow! )

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, that was not my point. My point is, if I go and say: "The earth is not billions of years old. It's actually 1000 billions of years old. Why? Oh, I don't know... I just think so."

Please, I am not in any way telling you to believe otherwise, if you are so narrow-minded that you won't even consider anything else than evolution. But please don't come here and say it as if it were fact and "common sense", when in reality, it is far from it.

And Yu Yevon knows alot more about nutrition than you seem to do about this subject, so I wouldn't really bring him up as an example.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]


What on earth does that mean? It was written by the hand of a man!

[/ QUOTE ]

The Book was written by God through man.

[ QUOTE ]

But why is sex before marriage considered a sin? It's not a sin for other animals on this planet to fornicate is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sex is God's gift to the married couple, besides from being a way for them to produce offspring. As with most other things, this gift can and is being abused.

[ QUOTE ]

There is only one other animal on the planet (that I know of) that is manogomous (sp?) and mates for life and they are swans...no idea where that point was going, but anyway!

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither...

[ QUOTE ]

Even if the act of sex is purely for reproductive reasons and not for pleasure, would it still be a sin outside of marriage?


[/ QUOTE ]

Read above - Sex is a beautiful God-given activity that is wonderful when practiced within the boundaries of a Biblical marriage. Sex is the completion of the binding of two people within Biblical marriage; it is a God-given gift. The Bible says that when two people are married, they become one flesh (Ephesians 5:31). Sex is consummation of that union.

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]

I myself, have not in any way been pushed toward believing in the Bible. I found it by myself and started reading it. After that I have changed completely as a person.


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">OK, bad example, but many, if not most do not find it on their own </font>

[ QUOTE ]

And to go further in that subject, I definitely wasn't a creationist from the beginning. I was just as indoctrinated to believe in evolution as anyone else. But I had one advantage - my whole life I had asked myself: "How could non-life turn into life? Millions of years - sure, but the transition life from non-life is still a real step - one second it was not living, the next it's living. And all by random? I don't think so.


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> So how was it all created out of nothing then? Explain further...I am interested (I am open minded on this whole subject, I promise, I just don't believe it at present!)

</font>
[ QUOTE ]
Everything in those threads are purely the opinions of those who believe in the bible. This does not make them correct. It can be argued as hear say.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is one of the most ignorant remarks I've heard, I'm sorry to say. You haven't even read them it seems. Read them through before you make comments about them.

<font color="blue">GUILTY AS CHARGED - I was lazy I admit! /forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font>

[ QUOTE ]
Do I really need to be 100% knowledgeable on a subject before I can debate it or give my opinions? If this is the case, then not even the mighty Yu Yevon can debate about nutrition because he is not 100% knowledgable on the subkect (at least not yet anyhow! )

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all, that was not my point. My point is, if I go and say: "The earth is not billions of years old. It's actually 1000 billions of years old. Why? Oh, I don't know... I just think so."

<font color="blue">I'm sure I could come up with just as much evidence on my theory as you have on yours, I just didn't ant to have to search all over the internet for it....laziness isn't a sin is it?
</font>

Please, I am not in any way telling you to believe otherwise, if you are so narrow-minded that you won't even consider anything else than evolution. But please don't come here and say it as if it were fact and "common sense", when in reality, it is far from it.

<font color="blue">Bad choice of words on my behalf, but I also feel that you are narrow minded as you have closed off other possibilities about Life and the Universe too! Practise what you preach!</font>

And Yu Yevon knows alot more about nutrition than you seem to do about this subject, so I wouldn't really bring him up as an example.

<font color="blue">That in no way was meant to be derrogatory in anyway to Yu, so please don't try to make me out as the bad guy to him. The rules on the forum say that you cannot be rude to the mods and I wasn't. It doesn't say you cannot use them as an example. I think the mods are there to be made an example of as they are what we are all striving to become. If anything it was a compliment as I regard him as the most knowledgable person on this Board when it comes to nutrition, but he himself will admit he doesn't know everything...and I kept it light hearted by saying "yet" </font>

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
So how was it all created out of nothing then? Explain further...I am interested (I am open minded on this whole subject, I promise, I just don't believe it at present!)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's great to hear that you are open minded!

This is very hard for us humans to grasp, but first you need to realise:

Either:

a) Life was created
or
b) Life created itself

First of all you need to think - which would be more logical, according to common sense? If you say: well, it's more logical it was created, but from where did the creator come from?

To creationists, this is clearly stated in the Bible - God is eternal. He has no beginning, and no end. As He said upon the question, who are you? "I am, that I am." And Jesus used that phrase, I am, to say that He was not only present at the beginning, but he is present yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever.

God's power is limitless - He created the universe. He used His Word to create it. Wheras sure, this may be tough to grasp and believe, but I find that much easier to believe than that it was all created by itself, out of itself, from nothing. In evolutionism, you exclude everything supernatural.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I could come up with just as much evidence on my theory as you have on yours, I just didn't ant to have to search all over the internet for it....laziness isn't a sin is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Ever heard about knowledge? /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Blindly copying and pasting stuff from the internet not even knowing what it says is not a very good strategy...

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all you need to think - which would be more logical, according to common sense? If you say: well, it's more logical it was created, but from where did the creator come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we've gone a bit off the mark from my arguments. I believe "a God" somehow, don't know how, but somehow created the universe and all things within it. What I don't believe is that he made man with a snap of his fingures, sorry, I mean just by saying let there be man! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I believe that lifeform (in whatever form that may be) was created many thousands, maybe millions, maybe billions of years ago (by God) and it has evolved with it's surroundings to survive. Hence Man.

Want I don't believe in is the Bible. When this was originally written, as you said previously that it was God's work, but he wrote it through man. Could it not, just possibly have been written by "the church" thousands of years ago to gain some kind of power? Think about it! Don't dismiss it straight away, be as open minded as I am. The modern day church (whatever religion that may be) is the most powerful (and richest) "organisation" on the earth today, and has probably been that way since it's creation.

And yet, look at the corruption that takes place in the church and the problems that religion creates. I cannot say this figure with any real facts behind it, but I think you would agree with me that the majority of all the problems on this planet are caused because of religion.

The most prominent at this date being Sept 11th.

My opinion of why we ave been put on this planet is to worship life. If God is life, then we both have the same values. But I do not believe in what is written in the bible. I do take some inspiratin from it, but I do not live my life around it.

[nozzle]

[ QUOTE ]
Want I don't believe in is the Bible. When this was originally written, as you said previously that it was God's work, but he wrote it through man. Could it not, just possibly have been written by "the church" thousands of years ago to gain some kind of power? Think about it!

[/ QUOTE ]

The Bible was written over several thousand years by 40 different men who came from different areas and spoke different languages.

So, how could this have been written by the "church" to create power? Most of it was written before the "church" was even established. (By "church" I'm assuming you mean the Catholic church? Incidentally, the Catholic church was not the original church described and created in the New Testament.)

[Midgster]

When I say "Church", I mean the group of religious people that created the bible. And how do you know for sure exactly when the bible was written? Carbon Dating? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And by whom? Did they sign it at the back of the book?

Unfortunately, I think this is a subject that will NEVER be proved or dis-proved, but you either believe in it or you don't.

It is upon this note, that I now have to go home (from work), eat some food, and then go pump some iron - the real reason for being on this planet - God made man to Squat, Deadlift and Bench Press!

Good night, and God Bless!

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]


I believe that lifeform (in whatever form that may be) was created many thousands, maybe millions, maybe billions of years ago (by God) and it has evolved with it's surroundings to survive. Hence Man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... this is called theistic evolutionism. Do you believe in Jesus, buddy?

[ QUOTE ]

Want I don't believe in is the Bible. When this was originally written, as Tuf said (I think) that it was God's work, but he wrote it through man. Could it not, just possibly have been written by "the church" thousands of years ago to gain some kind of power? Think about it! Don't dismiss it straight away, be as open minded as I am. The modern day church (whatever religion that may be) is the most powerful (and richest) "organisation" on the earth today, and has probably been that way since it's creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have given that exact thing a lot of thought. But these books and letters have been evaluated correct by archeology etc, so it's pretty much illogical to think that the church wrote it. And besides - if the church had done it to gain power, it would not have had to pervert the Word throughout centuries. If you follow the church, you'll often follow human doctrines (for example, in Sweden, homosexual people can now marry according to the church) instead of the Bible.

[ QUOTE ]

And yet, look at the corruption that takes place in the church and the problems that religion creates. I cannot say this figure with any real facts behind it, but I think you would agree with me that the majority of all the problems on this planet are caused because of religion.

The most prominent at this date being Sept 11th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Human doctrines again...

[ QUOTE ]

My opinion of why we ave been put on this planet is to worship life. If God is life, then we both have the same values. But I do not believe in what is written in the bible. I do take some inspiratin from it, but I do not live my life around it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think that if there was a God, He would somehow make himself known to us?

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe in Jesus, buddy?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to, but I'm sorry to say I don't, no

Edit - I actually do believe in Jesus, I think, if that makes sense....it's something I like to believe in, but the logical part of me doesn't

[ QUOTE ]
But these books and letters have been evaluated correct by archeology

[/ QUOTE ]

This surely involves the same techniques as those to calculate how old the earth is, which by your reckoning is incorrect!

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think that if there was a God, He would somehow make himself known to us?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think if God wanted us to worship him, then yes he would make himself known to us, but otherwise no I don't think he should. That's why I believe in worshiping life itself, and not God!


Really, really gotta go now. WIll be back tomorrow to continue...."Oh no" I hear everyone else cry!

[DoubleHelix]

I havent read through the whole read but ive read a bunch of it and I just have a couple things to say.

Midgster you say you believe god created the universe and such so why is it so hard to believe god created man so quickly? If god has the power to do that why wouldn't he be able to do thing super quick?

The thing about Religion causing all bad things and lots of corruption in churches. It's true but remember these churches are following god but being led by imperfect men. Not everyone is perfect and everyone even you make lots of mistakes.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd like to, but I'm sorry to say I don't, no

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you will change your mind some day /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I truly do.

[ QUOTE ]

This surely involves the same techniques as those to calculate how old the earth is, which by your reckoning is incorrect!

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant to say that the events and happenings and people have been historically proven accurate.

[ QUOTE ]

I think if God wanted us to worship him, then yes he would make himself known to us, but otherwise no I don't think he should. That's why I believe in worshiping life itself, and not God!

[/ QUOTE ]

You are putting the creation before the creator...

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
Midgster you say you believe god created the universe and such so why is it so hard to believe god created man so quickly? If god has the power to do that why wouldn't he be able to do thing super quick?


[/ QUOTE ]

Arrgghh! **** these question, I feel that I have to answer them before I go.

If God was as powerful as you say, and could make us that quickly, surely he would have the ability to make us perfectr. Maybe because he made us so quickly that he didn't plan it properly, but that doesn't sound like the sort of almighty being does it?

Mind you, he did go on to create woman, who he did make perfect...well he made 1 of them perfect....Kim Lyons! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DoubleHelix]

I guess you don't know about Adam and Eve then eh?

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]


Arrgghh! **** these question, I feel that I have to answer them before I go.

If God was as powerful as you say, and could make us that quickly, surely he would have the ability to make us perfectr. Maybe because he made us so quickly that he didn't plan it properly, but that doesn't sound like the sort of almighty being does it?

Mind you, he did go on to create woman, who he did make perfect...well he made 1 of them perfect....Kim Lyons! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the complexity of hummans and tell me if that is not perfect /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif lol. Seriously - He gave us free will. He wants us to Love Him because we want to, not because we have to.

[Midgster]

I do! Why did he put the apple there in the first place? If he made Adam perfect, he would never have eaten the apple!

Yu Yevon would never have eaten the apple, not unless it was pre workout!

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
I do! Why did he put the apple there in the first place? If he made Adam perfect, he would never have eaten the apple!

Yu Yevon would never have eaten the apple, not unless it was pre workout!

[/ QUOTE ]

Free will...

[DoubleHelix]

Well theres no point in discussing it because it doesn't seem like youre really taking it all that seriously. Anyways there is a driveway to be removed of snow. I'm out.

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]

Look at the complexity of hummans and tell me if that is not perfect /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif lol. Seriously - He gave us free will. He wants us to Love Him because we want to, not because we have to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more...love God if YOU want to, not because he wants you to. I'm sure he'd think it would be nice if we did.

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]
Well theres no point in discussing it because it doesn't seem like youre really taking it all that seriously. Anyways there is a driveway to be removed of snow. I'm out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am taking it seriously, but God gave us humour too you know...I'm just trying to keep things light hearted as Relisious discusions can get very heated sometimes.

Sorry if my light humour offends you!

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well theres no point in discussing it because it doesn't seem like youre really taking it all that seriously. Anyways there is a driveway to be removed of snow. I'm out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am taking it seriously, but God gave us humour too you know...I'm just trying to keep things light hearted as Relisious discusions can get very heated sometimes.

Sorry if my light humour offends you!

[/ QUOTE ]

I myself like to keep things light as well /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif But, remember - Free will /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Midgster]

[ QUOTE ]

I myself like to keep things light as well /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif But, remember - Free will /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are William, Free Will also gives us the right to have different belief's

[nozzle]

[ QUOTE ]
I do! Why did he put the apple there in the first place? If he made Adam perfect, he would never have eaten the apple!

Yu Yevon would never have eaten the apple, not unless it was pre workout!

[/ QUOTE ]

IT WASN'T AN APPLE!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, that's just a little pet peeve of mine...people adding details where none is given. It was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We don't know what kind of tree it was or if that tree is even around today (I'd think that it was destroyed along with the Garden of Eden).

It's like the whole story of Jesus' birth. There are so many traditionally accepted details that aren't anywhere in any of the biblical accounts.

/rant

[President Wilson]

Midgster,

I'll be quite honest with you.

1. You have never read the Bible, therefore your ignorance on the subject will not make for good conversation. Period.
Once you have read it, then quote a verse.

2. You do not have the ability to defend your religious, evolutionary views. That I guarantee.

3. Skip past the theological debate, which you have admitted you are ignorant on, and read our studies on the subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Could it not, just possibly have been written by "the church" thousands of years ago to gain some kind of power? Think about it!

[/ QUOTE ]

This once again shows your ignorance on the subject.

Click the link in our studies and read up. You honestly have no clue at all on this subject. Not only have you not read the Bible, but are ignorant of the documented history behind it.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't dismiss it straight away, be as open minded as I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are. That is why we actually read about a subject before commenting on it. It makes for a higher level of intellectual conversation

[ QUOTE ]
The modern day church (whatever religion that may be) is the most powerful (and richest) "organisation" on the earth today, and has probably been that way since it's creation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow,

your ignorance is amazing. Seriously, do some research. Usually I would take the time to destroy an argument, but this would be a waste of time.

[ QUOTE ]
And yet, look at the corruption that takes place in the church and the problems that religion creates.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure,

the religion of evolution daily teaches children that they came from a rock 4.5 billion years ago. That is a serious problem

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot say this figure with any real facts behind it

[/ QUOTE ]

A very obvious trend to say the least

[ QUOTE ]
But I do not believe in what is written in the bible. I do take some inspiratin from it, but I do not live my life around it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its difficult to believe in anything you have zero knowlege of.

Really,

if someone wants to debate us, at least bring some kind of research behind it. We have studied evolutionary subjects in insane depth. When someone has a question, that has already been answered, when they themseleves admit to being ignorant on a subject, then we will not entertain the conversation.