God Question

[ChosenSoldier]

Here is my dileman now I have my many reasons why i personaly do not believe that god exists but I live my life moraly and ethicaly correct i have set standards and belifes in which i firmly abide by my morals can be considered more sticter than the churches. My question is even though i dont follow a church or have a belief in an ultimate figure can i still go to heaven even though i dont belive. Also i kno the fact of my profession of a soldier gives a more problem i iwll tell you that as a combatant i fight with the belive in the Just war system and neve to kill any unarmed or non combatants. Also killing is immoral but I hate killing someone as i already have but i rationalize it that those who i am doing battle against seek to envoke ther will on other and what i am doing will benefit the society if not the world as a whole.

[nozzle]

So you believe in heaven but you don't believe in God? Or are you asking that just in case there is a God will you go to heaven because you are living a moral (as deemed by your standards) life?

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is even though i dont follow a church or have a belief in an ultimate figure can i still go to heaven even though i dont belive.

[/ QUOTE ]
The Bible tells us that it is by our faith that we are saved, not by our works. This is a gift from God and is not something that we can earn by having good morals and ethics. Read Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Eph+2%3A8-9&version=KJV)

We also read about people who believe they have earned entrance into the Kingdom because of their good works. The Lord turns them away, saying He never knew them. Read Matthew 7:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Matt+7%3A21-23&version=KJV)

When the Philippian jailor asked Paul and Silas what he needed to do to be saved, they told him that he must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Read Acts 16:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+16:29-31&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref =on)

Romans 10:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ROM+10:8-10&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref =on) tells us that if we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts in Jesus, we will be saved.

Regardless of our upright character or moral behavior, all of us fall short of God's glory. Read Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Rom+3%3A23&version= KJV)

Isaiah 64:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Isa+64%3A6&version= KJV) says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags. No matter how good we think we are, we still fall short.

We deserve punishment, yet God gives us the gift of eternal life through his Son. Read Romans 6:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Rom+6%3A23&version= KJV)

Our own merit will get us nowhere. If we do not believe, we will not see life and God's wrath will abide on us. If we do believe, we will have eternal life. Read John 3:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=John+3%3A36&version =KJV)

[William Ustav]

The only way to Heaven and our heavenly father is through Jesus Christ. Believe in Him and the key to Heaven will be given to you. It's that simple.

And as Nozzle already asked - do you believe in heaven but not in God? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Mesa]

No, if you do not believe in Jesus you will not go to heaven. (I hate to put it so bluntly, but it's that simple)

Read the book of Mark (my personal favorite /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif), if you say you are living a "moral" life, then what is your driving force? I refuse to believe that humans are innately "good" and "moral." We only truly love others when we truly understand the love Jesus demonstrated to all of us.

[ChosenSoldier]

i dont believe in both God and heaven I am saying is if it does what will occur. Also i'm asking this because it came up between me and some of my fellow squad members. If my consequences for not believing but living a ethial life are being cast down then so be it i will accept the consequnces for my actions.

Also just as long as you believe you will be saved what about all those people who do believe but are deplorable human beings

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont believe in both God and heaven I am saying is if it does what will occur. Also i'm asking this because it came up between me and some of my fellow squad members. If my consequences for not believing but living a ethial life are being cast down then so be it i will accept the consequnces for my actions.

Also just as long as you believe you will be saved what about all those people who do believe but are deplorable human beings

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to understand that Jesus is the key. Without Jesus, if you refuse to accept Jesus, you're just gonna have to pay for it later.

In my opinion, living 50+ earthly years in lust, sin, etc, is worse than spending eternity in hell. I'd rather see to it that I go to Heaven, which is a much nicer place /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Every person will be righteously judged by God, we can be sure of that. But the door to Heaven is guarded by Jesus.

[Son of Shem]

just wondering, but does anyone else here not believe in heaven and hell?

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to believe that humans are innately "good" and "moral."

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree!! Anyone who has children can attest to that. Do we teach our children to lie,cheat or steal? I would think most of us do not. We spend most of our time teaching children not to do those things. Yet they will.
Example, my daughter came home with some candy. I asked her where she got it. She named a friend of hers at school. I said "Oh so and so shared thier candy with you?" "That was very nice". She then proceeded to tell me that the person wouldn't share so she just took what she wanted.
I was floored! This was not a behavior that was taught to her, she just knew she wanted somthing so she took it. I had to explain to her that was not nice and that was stealing.
Another time, I told my nephew (who was 3) he couldn't have the cookies he asked for because it was almost dinner. Later he came strolling through the room with cookie all over his face and shirt. I asked if he ate the cookies and he lied and said no.
Just two small examples of how we as humans seek to gratify ourselves over what is right.
This beahvior is what is innate not goodness, kindness and morality, those things are learned.

Jesus said "I am the Way the truth and the Light. No one gets to the Father except through me".
This is pretty cut and dried. He didn't say I am "A Way"! He didn't even say I am a "Good Way" he said I am "THE" way!
I have heard some non-belivers say "Well, isn't that elitest and eclusionary?" Well, maybe. But they'll have to take that up with the Lord. He was the only one willing to suffer and die for us even though he was innocent. Even if there were another who chose to(not that there ever would be), it wouldn't be enough because we are all sinners. Sinful from the moment we are concieved.
So, if you want to go to heaven Jesus is the only way. He paid the admission price for all of us. We just have to claim our ticket that he is holding.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
just wondering, but does anyone else here not believe in heaven and hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, check out the evolution vs. creation threads. Bunch of evolutionists and non-christians here.

[Son of Shem]

i'm not evolutionist but i am a nonchristian.

just checking.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not evolutionist but i am a nonchristian.

just checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, just curious - what are you then? I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I just want to know.

[RicoCPA]

Will,

I believe he is Jewish.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
Will,

I believe he is Jewish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, ok. Thx.

[Chicker]

I'm just curious, to the religious people on this site (any religion)...were you raised that religion, or did you enter it yourself?

[Andrew G.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just curious, to the religious people on this site (any religion)...were you raised that religion, or did you enter it yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know some of the moderators and a good portion of the christian members of this site have become followers of Jesus Christ because of the overwhelming evidence that there is a creator.

That does not do them justice though, each of them have there own stories of how they have come to put their faith in Jesus Christ, and my generalization is meager at best.

[Son of Shem]

i am Jewish and i was raised in it.

i don't see what is so suprising to you will that i don't believe in evolution yet i'm a nonchristian? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Chicker]

I was raised Christian. Everyone in my family is super super religious except my brother and I. My brother is pretty heavily anti-religion, whereas I'm accepting of all religions. Everyone has the right to their own beliefs, in my opinion.

I tried to religious at one point, but I just don't believe it...but I respect everyone's religion or lack of religion. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RichW]

When I was a small child (Birth till 4) I was raised by my Grandparents. My Mom was a teenager so they mostly raised me.Back then I went to Church with my Grandmother.
When my Mom got married my Dads parents were very devout Christians but my Dad wasn't so the only time we went to Church after that was when my Grandparents came to town or we went there.
When i was about 13 my Dad left and my Mom started taking us to Church. I think it was mostly so she would look better in my Grandparents eyes though. I got involved then but as got older I started going less and less and started hanging out with the partying crowd at school.
When I got to college it got worse. I was drinking a lot and doing a lot of drugs.Not to mention the sexual sins i comitted. There was about 8 yrs that I was completely lost!
Then I started to calm down met my wife and got married.
I started thinking more and more about God and going to Church. I never really did though. I figured I was ok. I was doing ok and was a "good person" so I didn't need all of that. Still, that small voice was always there calling me to come back.
My daughter was Born 3 months pre-mature and I was scared. I knew we couldn't handle the situation alone so for the first time in years I prayed. It was miraculous!! I was so peaceful after that one prayer! We were told all these complications we should expect and at the very least my daughter would be on a ventilator for two months at best.
Well she only weighed 3lbs when she was born. However, that was all that was wrong with her. To the Dr's astonishment her lungs were fully formed and she didn't need to be on a ventilator.Instead of her being in the hostpital 3 months like we were told, she was only there for three weeks!
When we brought her home it was one of the happiest days of my life.
As I looked at that precious gift I knew I had two choices. I could raise her in the world or I could raise her in Christ! I chose Christ. I committed my life to him and promised that I would do my best with his help to raise her as a child of God.
It hasn't been easy. But God never promised us it would be, God just promises he will be there to carry us when it gets hard!
Rich

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]

i don't see what is so suprising to you will that i don't believe in evolution yet i'm a nonchristian? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, for some reason I didn't think of jews and muslims at that instant.

[Son of Shem]

[ QUOTE ]

Lol, for some reason I didn't think of jews and muslims at that instant.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think there are many, many, many other religions in the world that believe in a creator, not just the main monotheistic religions in the world.

[CoLDTuRKeY]

[ QUOTE ]

The Bible tells us that it is by our faith that we are saved, not by our works.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is what gets me... By this aren't you basically saying that ever single Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic and athiest are going to hell? Sorry but I refuse to believe that. I think Old School said it best when he said that we are judged by what is in our hearts. If a person is truly good then I believe they will go to heaven regardless of their faith here on earth. If I misunderstood what you wrote I'm sorry, this is just how I saw it.

[Hacobo]

^^

I see it the same way. Heaven would be a really crappy thing if it only let in those who believed in one certain man.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont believe in both God and heaven I am saying is if it does what will occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will get your wish to be departed from God for eternity...what we call Hell.

Hell is not about the fire, brimestone, or shoveling coal forever, what makes hell, hell, is the fact that God will not be there.

It will be a place of no relationship, eternal regret and sorrow, and worst of all eternal seperation from God.

Here is what Jesus said about Hell, note this is out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. Jesus did not pull punches or sugar coat anything. He came for one purpose, to save people from their sins. Therefore when He discusses Hell you can take it to the bank that He means it, and the descriptions He gives of Hell are literal fact.

<font color="red"> 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

</font>

Here is the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. This is not a parable. The format is totally different. Jesus presents it as a story that actually happened.

<font color="red"> The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
</font>

God is a God of holiness. We are all born sinners by nature.

<font color="green"> 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

</font>

There is no way we alone can reconcile ourselves to God through works.

<font color="red"> 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. </font>

The only way we can be reconciled to God is accepting by faith that Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross.

His blood was shed for our sin.

Here the prophet Isaiah prophecied the life and purpose of Jesus:

<font color="brown"> 1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [1] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [2]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [3] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [4] and be satisfied [5] ;
by his knowledge [6] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [7]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [8]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

</font>

Going to heaven is not about being religous. Its about accepting Christ into your heart as the only substitute for our sins.

Jesus demonstrated religous acts are not the entrance to heaven.

<font color="blue"> 9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[1] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
</font>

<font color="green"> 18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'[2] "
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. </font>

[ QUOTE ]


If my consequences for not believing but living a ethial life are being cast down then so be it i will accept the consequnces for my actions.


[/ QUOTE ]

What you are telling God by saying this is that you are perfectly Holy, and have no sin. Therefore you are calling Christs sacrifice useless to you.

<font color="red">He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
</font>

You are essentially telling God He is a liar.

Take a look at Isaiah the prophet. He was a very Holy man. He was honored with recieving prophcies form God concering the coming Christ.

In fact he stood before God. Let's see how holy he was before God...

<font color="red"> 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
</font>

One of the holiest men on the planet could not even stand to be in God's perfect Holy presence.

[ QUOTE ]
Also just as long as you believe you will be saved what about all those people who do believe but are deplorable human beings

[/ QUOTE ]

There are levels of punishment. Jesus was clear about that. But there is no escape of the Judgment. Youd be wise to consider Christ!

<font color="green"> as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts
</font>

[ QUOTE ]
By this aren't you basically saying that ever single Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic and athiest are going to hell? Sorry but I refuse to believe that.

[/ QUOTE ]

First no one is sent to hell, people go to hell by their own choice. They chose to deny God's sacrifice.

[ QUOTE ]
If a person is truly good then I believe they will go to heaven regardless of their faith here on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible is clear, no one is good.

[ QUOTE ]
think Old School said it best when he said that we are judged by what is in our hearts.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were referring to those who had never heard, not to those whom willingly reject God's simple plan of salavtion.

People who reject Christ's sacrifice, are those who refuse to humble their pride to God. They are not immune if they do good deeds. We have all sinned.

If you look at all those religions, they are all balancing acts.

If you do more bad than good, and you die on a day when God is in a good mood, you get in, if not too bad.

That's not the case with Christ. We are saved by grace. We are saved by admitting there is nothing we can do to reconcile ourselves. We need God. So we humble ourselves and ask Christ to forgive us.

Whether we want to believe it or not, Christ said,

<font color="red"> 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


</font>

<font color="green">"For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with His truth."

Psalm 96:13 </font>

[ZachE84]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather see to it that I go to Heaven, which is a much nicer place /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Every person will be righteously judged by God, we can be sure of that. But the door to Heaven is guarded by Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you believe that its ok to beleive in God just so you do go to heaven? Not saying you do, but your post made me bring it up. Many people only beleive in God so they think they will go to heaven. Its not that easy - God can't be deceived.

[CoLDTuRKeY]

[ QUOTE ]

First no one is sent to hell, people go to hell by their own choice. They chose to deny God's sacrifice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep saying that they are "denying God's sacrifice" as though Jesus dying for man is a world-wide accepted fact. Not everyone holds the same beliefs as you and me.

[ QUOTE ]

The bible is clear, no one is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that if they lived a decent life as a Buddhist/Muslim/ect and realize that when they meet God there is only one thing that can save them from what they did on earth. I believe people are judged by their hearts, not what they held as their beliefs while on earth.

[ QUOTE ]
We were referring to those who had never heard, not to those whom willingly reject God's simple plan of salavtion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you're stating this as if it were universally accepted when it's not. Many people of other faiths look on Christianity as Christians look on every other religion of the world - as the wrong one. And until the day of their judgement these people won't believe any other way.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do more bad than good, and you die on a day when God is in a good mood, you get in, if not too bad.

That's not the case with Christ. We are saved by grace. We are saved by admitting there is nothing we can do to reconcile ourselves. We need God. So we humble ourselves and ask Christ to forgive us.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that when people die they are actually face to face with God and have a choice? I see what you mean by humbling yourself in the presence of God. No one deserves to go to heaven.

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]


You keep saying that they are "denying God's sacrifice" as though Jesus dying for man is a world-wide accepted fact. Not everyone holds the same beliefs as you and me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weather some people chose not to believe doesn't make it any less true. Even if everyone denies the truth it doesn't make it any less true. There are plenty of historical documentations of Jesus to corraborate the accounts of the New Testament. Even without the New Testament we could piece together an accurate representation of who Jesus was, what he did and what people believed about him.

[CoLDTuRKeY]

[ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of historical documentations of Jesus to corraborate the accounts of the New Testament. Even without the New Testament we could piece together an accurate representation of who Jesus was, what he did and what people believed about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I've never seen them nor hardly heard of them so how do you expect a race of people with differing beliefs to hear about them, much less actually believe them? I'm not saying that people's beliefs make the truth any less... true. What I'm saying is that you can't hold it against a person for not believing in our God when they've been brought up their entire lives to believe in another way. Not everyone was born as lucky as to be taught of God from birth or to have a life changing experience like some of the mods on here have.

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I've never seen them nor hardly heard of them so how do you expect a race of people with differing beliefs to hear about them, much less actually believe them? I'm not saying that people's beliefs make the truth any less... true. What I'm saying is that you can't hold it against a person for not believing in our God when they've been brought up their entire lives to believe in another way. Not everyone was born as lucky as to be taught of God from birth or to have a life changing experience like some of the mods on here have.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with most of what you say. However, God is not our God, he is everyones God. In todays day and age there is no area of the earth where there is not a Christian tv, radio show or a missionary passing out Bibles and preaching the word of God. Even in the most remote areas of the Amazon, Outback and in the heart of Communist China missionarys are there proclaming the truth.
As to the other writings, The Truth Is Out There! (ok, that was cheesy!) but it is there. Jesus tells us to seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be open unto you.
Some say it isn't fair that to get to heaven you have to believe in Christ. I disagree. Its like saying "It's not fair that I have to cross an ocean to get from the USA to Australia! I don't like water! There should be another way."
Why should there be another way just because you don't like the one available? I think we are so blessed to have a way at all!!! God chose to step from the eternal into the constraints of time and space to subjegate himself to torture and ridicule and finally a painful death. Why? Because he loved all of us so much that he wanted to have his children home with him. I think to deny that is plenty reason not to be admitted to the place God provides for us.
In the grand scope of things it's really a small request after such a great sacrifice.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
You keep saying that they are "denying God's sacrifice" as though Jesus dying for man is a world-wide accepted fact. Not everyone holds the same beliefs as you and me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm referring to those who have heard the message and reject it.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe people are judged by their hearts, not what they held as their beliefs while on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.But your beliefs dicate what is in your heart.

<font color="red"> 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins
</font>

God says the heart is wicked.

If we are judged by anything in our character we are in trouble. That is why when Christ enters our heart, we are saved. Our heart is saved, and when God judges our heart, He sees the blood of Christ and his imputed righteousness on our lives. When he sees our heart, he essentially sees the heart of Christ!

I made a clear distinction between those who have never heard the gosple and how they are judged as opposed to those who have heard.

Those who have heard and rejected, are without excuse.

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying that when people die they are actually face to face with God and have a choice?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Once you are dead its over.

<font color="red"> 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: </font>

I am saying if you look at all of those religions, Islam, Buddhism, etc. They are all based on works and deeds. That is what seperates Christianity from all other beliefs. We accept that we can not enter heaven by our works, by faith we accept christ's sacrifice to attone our sins.

Christ = Grace

All other religions = Works.

Works can not get one into heaven, therefore none of these religions offers any type of back door to heaven.

There is only one way, through Christ.

[Son of Shem]

and for those who don't believe in heaven?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm saying is that you can't hold it against a person for not believing in our God when they've been brought up their entire lives to believe in another way

[/ QUOTE ]

We can't. God can.

He knows everything about each person. That is why He is the righteous judge.

Bro, with all due respect, not a flame at all, but IMO you have a issue with God's authority and moreover the authority of His Word. I understand everyone has questions, but it seem like in this and many other posts you are looking to box God into your ways.

If you accepted God's word as what it is, God's Word, you would not have these troubles understanding.

God is God, He can do what He wants.

We are saved by Grace, God owes us nothing.

Here in Proverbs He shows that He is a God of mercy, but His mercy has limits.

<font color="blue"> 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

</font>

<font color="red">5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


</font>

God's judgements are beyond fair.

<font color="brown"> 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

</font>

So our opinion of who deserves heaven and who doesn't really means nothing. That is why we are told not to go around judging people to ****ation. We can only warn them. We don't know how God is working on their lives.

[President Wilson]

I'm sorry to hear that Chicker.

Consequently, if your brother believes in evolution, he is actually extremely pro-religion. As that is all evolutionism is.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
This goes back to the notion that everyone’s religion is “right” and that no one can be wrong. But this is not true. Truth is not inclusive, it is exclusive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great point Yu, I was just discussing this with a Christian the other day.

Ro 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The truth is not relative.

Romans 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar

What someone believes, or doesn't believe, will not change the truth, or God's work. That's irrelevant. Whether someone believes the earth is flat or not will not change the fact that it is round.

Here is a great except on this from the book, ‘evidence that demands a verdict’ by Mr. Josh Mcdowell:

The Christian faith is faith in Christ. Its value or worth is not in the one believing, but in the One believed—not in the one trusting, but in the One trusted.

Immediately following that debate, a Moslem fellow approached me and, during a :
most edifying conversation, said very sincerely, "I know many Moslems who have
more faith in Mohammed than some Christians have in Christ." I said, "That may well be true, but the Christian is 'saved; You see,it doesn't matter how much faith you have, but rather who is the object of your faith; that is important from the Christian perspective of faith."

I often hear students say, "Some Buddhists are more dedicated and have more
faith in Buddha [this showing a misunderstanding of Buddhism] than Christians have in Christ." I can only reply, "Maybe so, but the Christian is saved."

Paul said, "I know whom I have believed. This explains why the Christian gospel centers on the person of Jesus Christ.

John Warwick Montgomery writes: "If our 'Christ of faith' deviates at all from the biblical 'Jesus of history; then to the extent of that deviation, we also lose the genuine Christ of faith. As one of the greatest Christian historians of our time, Herbert Butter field, has put it: 'It would be a dangerous error to imagine that the characteristics of an historical religion would be maintained if the Christ of the theologians were divorced from the Jesus of history;" (Montgomery, SP, 145)

In other words, one must avoid the attiitude, "Don't confuse me with the facts, my is mind is made up!" For the Christian, the historical facts reported in the Scriptures are essential. That is why the apostle Paul said,"If Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.... and if
n Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins'."
1 Cor. 15:14,17).

And one more:

5B. Misconception #5: "Loving Christians Should Accept Other Religious Views",

"You Christians seem to think that your way is the only way and that all other views are] wrong. How intolerant can you be? Why can't you accept other people and what they believe as also true?"


These criticisms reflect the views of a new a definition of the word "tolerance." Webster's New World Dictionary of English (third edition) defines "tolerate" as "to recognize and respect [other's beliefs, practices, and soc forth] without sharing them," and "to bearn or put up with [someone or something notp especially liked]." The apostle Paul expressed this concept when he said, "[Love] endures all things" (1 Cor. 13:7).

But today a new definition of tolerance is systematically being foisted upon the minds of all people. As an example, Thomas A. Helmbock, executive vice-president of Lambda Chi Alpha fraternity, states, "The definition of new ... tolerance is that every individual's beliefs, lifestyle, and perception of truth claims are equal.... Your beliefs and my beliefs are equal, and all truth is relative."
Helmbock, IT, 2)

This misconception assumes that truth is inclusive, that it gathers under its wings claims that oppose each other. The fact, 1 however, is that all truth is exclusive_at least to some degree— for it must exclude as 1 false that which is not true.

For instance, it is true that Washington r D.C. is the capital city of the United States of America. This means that no other city in the United States is that country's capital. In fact, no other city on planet Earth or anywhere in the universe can lay legitimate claim to being the capital city of the United
States. One city and one only fits the bill, and that's Washington D.C.

Simply because just one city is the United States capital does not mean that the people who affirm this truth are therefore intolerant. They may like scores of other cities and even live in different cities themselves. They may even live in different countries and pre- fer their country to America. Accepting the exclusive truth claim about Washington D.C. does not make a person tolerant or intolerant it simply makes him or her correctabout what the capital city of the United States is.


The same is true about Christianity. If the claims of the Christian faith are true—and many people accept them as true—these people are no more intolerant for their belief than those people who accept Washington

D.C. as the United States capital. They are either correct or mistaken about how God has revealed Himself in the world. If they are right, then there really is no other way to God but through Christ. If they are wrong, then Christianity is false. The question of tolerance isn't the issue. The question of truth is.

The misconception of intolerance assumes that a person should always keep his
options open, even when the evidence narrows the options to one. Why should we do this? It seems clearly unreasonable, as apologists Norman Geisler and Ron Brooks state:

Surely, it is good to admit the possibility that one might be wrong and never good to maintain a position no matter what the evidence is against it. Also, one should never make a firm decision without examining all the evidence without prejudice. . . . [But] are we still to remain open-minded when all reason says
that there can be only one conclusion? That is the same as the error of the closed mind. ... What if the absolute view is true? Isn't openness taken to be absolute? In the long run, openness cannot really be true unless it is open to some real absolutes that cannot be denied. Open-mindedness should not be
confused with empty-mindedness. One should never remain open to a second alternative when only one can be true. (Geisler, WSA, 259)

It is the person who disbelieves in the face of strong evidence supporting Christianity who is really intolerant and closed-minded.

[Mesa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of historical documentations of Jesus to corraborate the accounts of the New Testament. Even without the New Testament we could piece together an accurate representation of who Jesus was, what he did and what people believed about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I've never seen them nor hardly heard of them so how do you expect a race of people with differing beliefs to hear about them, much less actually believe them? I'm not saying that people's beliefs make the truth any less... true. What I'm saying is that you can't hold it against a person for not believing in our God when they've been brought up their entire lives to believe in another way. Not everyone was born as lucky as to be taught of God from birth or to have a life changing experience like some of the mods on here have.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." </font>

I've heard of incidents where the holy spirit has touched people who have never heard of christianity or the bible. My friend went on a missionary trip to the Dominican Republic. When he got into the dense forest to preach the word, the tribe there said that they "knew someone like him was coming" and listened with open hearts.

If God can affect the lives of those who have never heard his name, don't you think he has the power to affect those of different religions also?

[Adam Knowlden]

Defenielty Mesa.

The Christian message is being spread like wild fire throughtout the earth. Jesus gave the Great Commission 2000 years ago, and we see the command being accelerated into all the earth, through mediums like the internet and TV

<font color="red"> 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

</font>

Many are affected world wide by the Christian message.

[ QUOTE ]
everyone was born as lucky as to be taught of God from birth or to have a life changing experience like some of the mods on here have.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not logical.

That is like me saying, "I was not born into money, that proves I'll always be poor".

Actually if you look at testimonies, you will see that most who are born into Christian homes are attacked by the enemy even moreso than those who were not. Such as the case with me, and I can tell you the only reason I had any life changing experiences was because I accepted Christ. Period.

Your parents can only instill the seed. They can't force it to grow.

The bible is clear the teaching or non-teaching of God to children will have ramifications in their life , and even ramifications at the national level, such as we are seeing today. We are teaching kids they evolved from a rock, and the nation is beginning to reflect that.

<font color="red"> Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

</font>

The garbage that is occuring these days would have been inconievable 150 years ago, when the nation was God fearing.

[CoLDTuRKeY]

[ QUOTE ]

Bro, with all due respect, not a flame at all, but IMO you have a issue with God's authority and moreover the authority of His Word. I understand everyone has questions, but it seem like in this and many other posts you are looking to box God into your ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that and sort of agree. I guess its just my way of sorting out things that don't make sense to me.



[/ QUOTE ] If you accepted God's word as what it is, God's Word, you would not have these troubles understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I see it and I still can't make sense out of it. It just seems that the way you put it you MUST accept Jesus into your life before you die or else you're pretty much screwed. It doesn't seem like it could be that simple when there seem to be so many variables involved.

[ QUOTE ]
We are saved by Grace, God owes us nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope I in no way implied that I thought he did. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
So our opinion of who deserves heaven and who doesn't really means nothing. That is why we are told not to go around judging people to ****ation. We can only warn them. We don't know how God is working on their lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I understand that. It's a little beyond me right now but like you said...

[ QUOTE ]
God's judgements are beyond fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

so I guess there really can't be any flaw in them. But what seems so obvious to Christians about how God works isn't so obvious to everyone else. We see a beautiful sunset and say "Hey it's God at work!", while someone in Palestine sees the same thing and says "Look at what wonderous things Allah does for us!" People make sense of things in the way they were taught to. And I know that this doesn't change what the truth is but as far as any non-Christian knows, what they believe IS the truth, whether they're wrong or not.

Now I'm off to go read those posts President gave to me...

[CoLDTuRKeY]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
everyone was born as lucky as to be taught of God from birth or to have a life changing experience like some of the mods on here have.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not logical.

That is like me saying, "I was not born into money, that proves I'll always be poor".

[/ QUOTE ]

No but it is obviously easier for a rich person to stay rich than for a poor person to become rich. I'm not saying it cannot happen, but it is no short or easy task.




[/ QUOTE ] Your parents can only instill the seed. They can't force it to grow.

[/ QUOTE ]

But many times no seed is planted. And as the old saying goes, "Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks".

On that short and probably pointless note, it's 11:30 and I have an early morning tomorrow so I think I'll say good night here...

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess its just my way of sorting out things that don't make sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine and we will try to help. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems that the way you put it you MUST accept Jesus into your life before you die or else you're pretty much screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the way I put it bro, the way God put it! No man comes to the Father but through Jesus. That's out of His mouth, not mine! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't seem like it could be that simple when there seem to be so many variables involved.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I mean bro. You are compromising God's power.

Variables and low odds mean nothing to God, there is nothing that is out of His ability. God has no constraints. In fact miracles are His business. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

But in the Age of Grace God has called everyone. How God does this to each person? We can never know that. We only know His Word says He will pour out His Spirit on everyone.

<font color="red"> 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; </font>

And this was confirmed and explained in Acts.

<font color="blue"> 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.


</font>

God has called everyone. How He will touch a Buddhist living in a shrine on the top of a mountain, completely isolated from the world, none of us knows. But I have 100% confidence in God's Word which proclaims He does pour His Spirit on everyone, and 100% confidence in His righteous judgement so it is not a strong hold for me.

[ QUOTE ]
No but it is obviously easier for a rich person to stay rich than for a poor person to become rich. I'm not saying it cannot happen, but it is no short or easy task.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily.

But regardless, there is no reason biblical reason to doubt God's ability to reach everyone, and give everyone a chance to repent:

<font color="red"> 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

God knows everything about everyone.

<font color="green"> Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

</font>

Unless you are infinite and have omnisence information about everyone, you can not dispute the claim God has made.

<font color="brown"> Jeremiah 32:16 Now when I had delivered the evidence of the purchase unto Baruch the son of Neriah, I prayed unto the LORD, saying,
17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,
19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:
20 Which hast set signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, even unto this day, and in Israel, and among other men; and hast made thee a name, as at this day;
21 And hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror;
22 And hast given them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey;
23 And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:
24 Behold the mounts, they are come unto the city to take it; and the city is given into the hand of the Chaldeans, that fight against it, because of the sword, and of the famine, and of the pestilence: and what thou hast spoken is come to pass; and, behold, thou seest it.
25 And thou hast said unto me, O Lord GOD, Buy thee the field for money, and take witnesses; for the city is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
26 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
28 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:
29 And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to provoke me to anger. </font>

<font color="blue"> Matthew 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. </font>

[ QUOTE ]
But many times no seed is planted. And as the old saying goes, "Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks".


[/ QUOTE ]

God says the Holy Spirit has touched everyone. He does this by placing seeds. Which Jesus describes.

<font color="green">The Parable of the Sower

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
</font>

Let go of your restrictions you are placing on God. God says He calls everyone. As a Christian, if God says it in His word, that should suffice. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It took me some time to do this as well. Ask God for help in this area. For example it took a lot of undoing to get "billions of years" out of my head that had been drilled in during collge, despite being saved, and trusting in Jesus and the bible.

I had to ask God for help in this area as well. So I know where you're coming from bro. Just keep praying about it. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<font color="red">6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


</font>